Reading Heir to the Empire

[Keltest]

I thought they had to keep the shields up not for the ships, but for the planet. The whole planet is like ten Manhattans stacked on top of each other; an asteroid hitting would kill millions. Taking the shields down, even to let ships through, also gives a chance for the asteroids to get in. It's a very small chance, but it's worse in that they don't know where they are. And I'd bet no politician wants to be the one who says "eh, let ships through sometimes" and be the one holding the bag if anything happened.

It's also been a while since I read it, so I could be wrong there. And it still has the scale problem, but an accurate sense of scale rarely makes for a good movie.

Its both. On an individual level, no ship captain who knows those things are out there is willing to risk it. You get a very small number of them brave or foolhardy enough to attempt it, but for the most part theyre comfortable staying put.

The politicians are more concerned with the city itself than any captains willing to risk themselves, figuring that while the captains are responsible for their own well beings if they take the risk, if something happens to the city its on them.

[pendell]

It is creative and makes for a good "genius admiral" trick in the story, but I'm a bit skeptical of the realism of it. Would even the full 287 asteroids really be that big a danger to the entire orbital space of a planet? Space is big.

Scifi writers having no sense of scale is very old news, though, so it doesn't bother me much.

The danger is not to the spacecraft but to the planet. The Republic is concerned that if they open a shield to admit a spacecraft, a dinosaur killer will hit Coruscant. It might not actually wipe out all life on the planet but it's usefulness as a capital planet would certainly be over for some time. And , as said, you'd kill a lot of people.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

The danger is not to the spacecraft but to the planet. The Republic is concerned that if they open a shield to admit a spacecraft, a dinosaur killer will hit Coruscant.

They fit into a Star Destroyer's hangar bays. Not exactly dino-killer, but maybe block-buster.

[Kish]

Oh, I know, it was just oddly polite of him to use the full title in his enraged scream, as though it might be Navigation Officer Thrawn he wanted to talk to.

It occurs to me that, from the framework that C'Baoth is the Emperor now (which is the line Thrawn gave him to recruit him), "Grand Admiral Thrawn" is a reminder that Thrawn theoretically works for him.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Oh, I know, it was just oddly polite of him to use the full title in his enraged scream, as though it might be Navigation Officer Thrawn he wanted to talk to.

It's like your parents addressing you with all your names...

[Fyraltari]

it's like your parents addressing you with all your names...

Grand Admiral Mitth'raw'nuruodo!

Welp, wasn't a spoiler.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: not sure this is worth a spoiler but let's be on the safe side.

Show

Grand Admiral Mitth'raw'nuruodo!

Spoiler

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Mitth'raw'nuruodouodouodo. Three uodos

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. That's probably the dumbest joke I've made yet.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler

Show

Mitth'raw'nuruodouodouodo. Three uodos

Wait, let me check Wwokkiiepedia.

[Sapphire Guard]

The true identity of Delta Source will probably be the biggest WTF moment you have in the series.

It's Leia's split personality? The twins? A trained Dianoga?

Re logistics, It's not so much that Sci Fi writers have no sense of scale, as it's nearly impossible to keep track of what's going on in a galactic scale war of billions. The author would need to employ a full time general staff just to keep track of where armies are, and most readers wouldn't be able to keep up or would find it boring.

Also, while galaxies are big, that means huge parts of your forces are tied down holding the territory you have, and random conscripts can't really crew warships, you need specialised staff for that. The conscripts are the ones in the transports, not the warship crews.

Having billions of soldiers is one thing, but moving them around easily is another. You have millions of soldiers, but if you want 80,000 of them on the same five beaches, you need to spend two years planning it. So it's like 'you want 50 million soldiers to land on Coruscant? Give me 14 years to plan out how that works.'

So if you want to rationalise it, it's not 'these are all my soldiers' it's 'these are all I have available that aren't committed somewhere else'. Thrawn favours raids over extended campaigns, which would be complicated by having to escort large numbers of vulnerable transport ships. And 20,000 fully trained soldiers that can crew ships for free is useful in any given engagement. Hard to pass off as trivial.

It's like your parents addressing you with all your names...

'Thrawn' isn't his full name.

Anyway...

CH15: Karrde is living in an old (as in centuries) abandoned fortress, talking to Gillespee and decrypting a Star map of some kind. There's no trace of clones in the systems, and Gillespee points out that war isn't making money for the smugglers, and while Karrde can afford to avoid doing business for a while, the others can't. The lack of reprisal contributes to this, which is probably Thrawn's intention. Karrde decides that he can ask Ghent to cut them in on Republic payroll, and a meeting is called to see who accepts.

Afterwards, Karrde loiters with his vornskyrrs, who he has realised hunt via The Force. Wasn't it established that nothing can touch the Force on Myrkr, though? How does that work? Anyway, the vornskrs are not happy to be on a barren world, and detect the landing party approaching easily.

Chimaera hangar this time, not bridge. Having arrested a smuggler named Mazzic, Thrawn attempts to convince him that he wasn't responsible for the attack on the meeting. He lets him leave after dropping hints. Ferrier appears and is ordered to have his wraith plant a datacard on Thrawn's ship detailing his deal with the Imperials. After which 'you will be free to go about your business', which is so ominous even Ferrier doesn't fully buy it.

CH16:

Luke, Mara et al arrive at Wayland, and wonder if they're being followed. I'm sure it's nothing. The gang are not convinced, but there's nothing they can do about it, so they land. Mara is still occasionally announcing her plans to murder Luke, who is getting used to her quirks. They land in the forest in a gap made by a fallen tree. Local animals watch them land, and eventually attack. They're drawn to the sounds of speeders, which means the gang has to walk. For nine to twelve days. During the discussion, Han spots something that makes it imperative they move quickly. The predators disappear, which means something else is around. An imperial patrol seems most likely, which means they can't radio in for backup without being detected. So they start walking.

Random encounters ensue, and Mara and Luke get nostalgic for their march through the forest at Myrkr. She asks him how the Emperor died, and he tells her, which doesn't match her dream. Luke figures that she needs him alive at least until the raid is over. How nice.

Gearing up for major confrontations. That's about it. Hoping Karrde makes it out of the series alive.

[Peelee]

A trained Dianoga?

Actually, one of the vignettes in From a Certain Point of View reportedly is about the Death Star dianoga, which has journeys throughout the galaxy before ending up in the trash compactor and sensed Luke's importance because she was Force-sensitive and let him go because of that. I'm pretty sure that it's tongue-in-cheek.

Re logistics, It's not so much that Sci Fi writers have no sense of scale, as it's nearly impossible to keep track of what's going on in a galactic scale war of billions. The author would need to employ a full time general staff just to keep track of where armies are, and most readers wouldn't be able to keep up or would find it boring.

Jedi Trial was written by a former US Marine. It was indeed quite boring.

[Keltest]

Afterwards, Karrde loiters with his vornskyrrs, who he has realised hunt via The Force. Wasn't it established that nothing can touch the Force on Myrkr, though? How does that work? Anyway, the vornskrs are not happy to be on a barren world, and detect the landing party approaching easily.

It works badly, for the vornskyrrs at any rate, which is the point. Imagine losing the ability to see any time you got within a hundred yards of a cow. Great survival mechanism for the cow, right? You can still go and eat, say, a chicken instead, as long as there isn't a cow in the area, so you aren't doomed to starvation, but you aren't going to be tasting beef too often either.

[pendell]

It's Leia's split personality? The twins? A trained Dianoga?

Is that your final answer ?

Afterwards, Karrde loiters with his vornskyrrs, who he has realised hunt via The Force. Wasn't it established that nothing can touch the Force on Myrkr, though? How does that work? Anyway, the vornskrs are not happy to be on a barren world, and detect the landing party approaching easily.

I thought it was only ysalamir which pushed back the Force, which makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint; if there are force-hunting predators, then prey would probably involve some kind of force camouflage or invisibility. Same way non-poisonous viceroy butterflies evolved to match the pattern of poisonous monarch butterflies.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

I thought it was only ysalamir which pushed back the Force, which makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint; if there are force-hunting predators, then prey would probably involve some kind of force camouflage or invisibility. Same way non-poisonous viceroy butterflies evolved to match the pattern of poisonous monarch butterflies.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Force camouflaged creatures would have made more sense within the metaphysics of the Galaxy far, far away (obviously they wouldn't have worked for the book though).

The existence of Force-repelling lizards really undermine the religious and spiritual aspects of the Force and reduce it to a mere fancy name for psychic powers, if you ask me.

[Peelee]

Force camouflaged creatures would have made more sense within the metaphysics of the Galaxy far, far away (obviously they wouldn't have worked for the book though).

The existence of Force-repelling lizards really undermine the religious and spiritual aspects of the Force and reduce it to a mere fancy name for psychic powers, if you ask me.

I don't mind at all the Force being stripped of religious and spiritual aspects. I still think Lucas's original (or quasi-original, who the hell knows what the original plan was, he's claimed so many things) idea that anyone could use the Force, and it just required intense training and focus, and such training with a good teacher could inherently instill discipline, was the best. Like a martial art, in a way.

[Fyraltari]

I don't mind at all the Force being stripped of religious and spiritual aspects. I still think Lucas's original (or quasi-original, who the hell knows what the original plan was, he's claimed so many things) idea that anyone could use the Force, and it just required intense training and focus, and such training with a good teacher could inherently instill discipline, was the best. Like a martial art, in a way.

Those are not contradictory.

I also agree it was a better idea that some "you were born special" nonsense.

[Cikomyr]

Those are not contradictory.

I also agree it was a better idea that some "you were born special" nonsense.

Well.. i mean, the idea that someone might be naturally predisposed to swordskill or martial art isnt a proposition entirely out of left field either.

Anyone can learn to use the Force, just like anyone can learn to swordfight.

Its just that.. you know that certain muscle memory can cause a lot of impediment in learning the basics of a martial art? If you studied Boxing, you might have problem picking up Capuera (i am making stuff up here, no idea which martial arts conflict).

Well.. its just that the bare act of living without the proper spiritual enlightenment causes you to have a massive "mental muscle memory" that blocks proper learning of the Force.

[Fyraltari]

Well.. i mean, the idea that someone might be naturally predisposed to swordskill or martial art isnt a proposition entirely out of left field either.

Anyone can learn to use the Force, just like anyone can learn to swordfight.

Its just that.. you know that certain muscle memory can cause a lot of impediment in learning the basics of a martial art? If you studied Boxing, you might have problem picking up Capuera (i am making stuff up here, no idea which martial arts conflict).

Well.. its just that the bare act of living without the proper spiritual enlightenment causes you to have a massive "mental muscle memory" that blocks proper learning of the Force.

Then explain why Chirrut can't move anything with his mind.

It is pretty clearly established that people can be enlightened all they want, without a high enough midi-chlorian count they won't achieve anything on a temporal level.

[pendell]

Then explain why Chirrut can't move anything with his mind.

It is pretty clearly established that people can be enlightened all they want, without a high enough midi-chlorian count they won't achieve anything on a temporal level.

Disney could undo all of my dislike of the post-OT movies if they simply re-did the prequels and cut out those five minutes where midichlorians are mentioned, rendering them non-canon so we never, ever have to talk about them again.

That said , Midichlorians point to a biological basis for the Force rather than a mystical or spiritual one. Perhaps the mystic elements are simply added on by humans and aren't required for a proper understanding of the Force at all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Disney could undo all of my dislike of the post-OT movies if they simply re-did the prequels and cut out those five minutes where midichlorians are mentioned, rendering them non-canon so we never, ever have to talk about them again.

That said , Midichlorians point to a biological basis for the Force rather than a mystical or spiritual one. Perhaps the mystic elements are simply added on by humans and aren't required for a proper understanding of the Force at all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

To be honest all that Qui-Gon says about the Midi-chlorians is that they "tell the willof the Force", so they are more akin to a symptom of the Force than the cause, I guess? It's still very dumb.

But really, the Dark Side and Force Ghost mean that the Force is (at least) spiritual in nature.

Then again I may be biased, but I find the Force and the mystical aspects of it to be the best part of Star Wars. The whole Separatist/Republic/Empire/Rebellion/First Order/Resistance is kind of bland in comparison.

[Kish]

However anyone feels about 1) the prequel movies, 2) midichlorians, 3) Zahn's books, or 4) the EU separate from Zahn's Thrawn books, one thing is certain: The input the prequel movies had into this trilogy started and stopped at "don't use a clone of Obi-Wan Kenobi for your major Jedi clone villain, because I want to fill in the Clone Wars myself." Nothing Zahn wrote here depended in any way on anything that would one day be said about midichlorians.

[Cikomyr]

Then explain why Chirrut can't move anything with his mind.

It is pretty clearly established that people can be enlightened all they want, without a high enough midi-chlorian count they won't achieve anything on a temporal level.

I dont have to explain ****.

There are plenty of reasons you can find yourself as to why an enlightened individual still cant perform the highest feats with the Force. Just like an enlightened humble temple attendee cant achieve the greatest Shaolin Kung Fu moves.

Personal skills.

[Blackhawk748]

@the Asteroids: I think some people may have been underestimating just what a cloaked asteroid about 2-3 times the size of the Falcon could do to a city, plus the fact that there could be over a hundred of them floating around in orbit in random patterns. Its much the same as dumping a bunch of invisible mines into a trade route in the ocean. Yes the odds of you hitting one is probably around 1%, but no one is gonna take that risk. Then you add in the fact that if they hit Coruscant its billions (not millions) dead and they have to stay bottled up.

Its a good plan.

[Cikomyr]

They fit into a Star Destroyer's hangar bays. Not exactly dino-killer, but maybe block-buster.

"They are not exactly dino-killer" is a great government spin meant to underplay the fact that you let asteroid crash.

[deuterio12]

Those are not contradictory.

I also agree it was a better idea that some "you were born special" nonsense.

So it's just a coincidence that Anakin's kids and grandson are all born with great force potential? Because that really smells like genetics to me.

[jayem]

@the Asteroids: I think some people may have been underestimating just what a cloaked asteroid about 2-3 times the size of the Falcon could do to a city, plus the fact that there could be over a hundred of them floating around in orbit in random patterns. Its much the same as dumping a bunch of invisible mines into a trade route in the ocean. Yes the odds of you hitting one is probably around 1%, but no one is gonna take that risk. Then you add in the fact that if they hit Coruscant its billions (not millions) dead and they have to stay bottled up.

Its a good plan.

I suspect there is a large amount of scale issues. However if we assume they are about geostationary (so orbit in around 86400 seconds) over a single spaceport. Then you can roughly see that (if a ship takes a 0.1s to pass, which means it lands in about 10 minutes). It's pretty close to a 1 in a million chance per asteroid.
If we assume about 1km wide, then 5km^2 is taken up and they can land anywhere then it's about 1 in 10 billion.

I'm not sure about the damage, the ISS did break up but that is smaller and less rocky
But they are at less than 1/1000 of the size of the dinosaur one and have only horizontal movement (but by the time it does hit at an unknown time, it's still pretty fast vertically). Though for it to go for the shield the instant it's down it can't be in a stable orbit, so as time goes by the odds on that will shift. But of course working out which requires time (hopefully not a spoiler if I don't say which)

So actually (particularly if we assume thrawn at least slightly targeted the asteroids) it's a very real chance of a ship getting caught and at worst only out by a factor of say 1000. Which compared to the army sizes where each planet sends half a soldier (and yes I know 99% has to be used for the planet) and the other standard things is pretty close.

[Bavarian itP]

I suspect there is a large amount of scale issues. However if we assume they are about geostationary (so orbit in around 86400 seconds) over a single spaceport. Then you can roughly see that (if a ship takes a 0.1s to pass, which means it lands in about 10 minutes). It's pretty close to a 1 in a million chance per asteroid.
If we assume about 1km wide, then 5km^2 is taken up and they can land anywhere then it's about 1 in 10 billion.

I'm not sure about the damage, the ISS did break up but that is smaller and less rocky
But they are at less than 1/1000 of the size of the dinosaur one and have only horizontal movement (but by the time it does hit at an unknown time, it's still pretty fast vertically). Though for it to go for the shield the instant it's down it can't be in a stable orbit, so as time goes by the odds on that will shift. But of course working out which requires time (hopefully not a spoiler if I don't say which)

So actually (particularly if we assume thrawn at least slightly targeted the asteroids) it's a very real chance of a ship getting caught and at worst only out by a factor of say 1000. Which compared to the army sizes where each planet sends half a soldier (and yes I know 99% has to be used for the planet) and the other standard things is pretty close.

You know, I never liked catgirls. Good effort!

[Grim Portent]

To be honest all that Qui-Gon says about the Midi-chlorians is that they "tell the willof the Force", so they are more akin to a symptom of the Force than the cause, I guess? It's still very dumb.

But really, the Dark Side and Force Ghost mean that the Force is (at least) spiritual in nature.

Then again I may be biased, but I find the Force and the mystical aspects of it to be the best part of Star Wars. The whole Separatist/Republic/Empire/Rebellion/First Order/Resistance is kind of bland in comparison.

I think the midi-chlorians were eventually explained as being lifeforms created by the force and drawn to places/objects/creatures strongly attuned to the living force. I recall Yoda seeing some stuff in the Clone Wars series that was planets that served as wellsprings for the cosmic force to cycle into the living force and similar nonsense. Sort of a Garden of Eden type deal that all life came from.

[Fyraltari]

I dont have to explain ****.

There are plenty of reasons you can find yourself as to why an enlightened individual still cant perform the highest feats with the Force. Just like an enlightened humble temple attendee cant achieve the greatest Shaolin Kung Fu moves.

Personal skills.

So basically it's not enlightenmentthat matters? 'Cause Chirrut has spent his whiole life working at a Jedi Temple and he is, bar none, the most religious character shown in the movies.
"The Force is something you are born with" is something that has been clearly established since the 80's at least and nothing has come to contradict it. That's what "the Forceis strong in my family means".

Hell, there's even a Church of the Force that consists of people living according to the Jedi ways without being sensible to the Force. They're the civilains Finn didn't want to kill.

If anyone can learn to use the Force why can't they when Rey can in basically a week?

So it's just a coincidence that Anakin's kids and grandson are all born with great force potential? Because that really smells like genetics to me.

I never said that. "Genetics" is the explanation the Star Wars went with and I was simply stating my dislike of it.

Maybe you wanted to respond to Cikomyr?

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: Digression into Force Sensitivity, Midichlorians, etc.

Show

Force Sensitivity seems to a cocktail of multiple factors, including genetics, spirituality, and discipline/training, plus an element of random chance.

The top tier (Yoda, Emperor) are strong in all three aspects.

Anakin had superb genetics, but lacked spirituality and possibly training. Obi Wan had lesser genetics, but better discipline and spirituality, which left him able to defeat him.

Leia has good genetics, but didn't train, so she's not as powerful as Luke.

Chirrut had spirituality and training, but didn't have the genes.

Being born special didn't stop Anakin from getting the tar kicked out of him by superior fighters, even with his super high midichlorian count. Being the Chosen One didn't help.

I don't really get the objection to midichlorians, it has never meant bloodline is all that matters.

Re ysalamiri, wasn't it a plot point in Book 1 that Luke couldn't use the Force at all while on the Planet due to the ysalamiri everywhere? So how to Force using predators function in that same forest?

Re asteroids, Thrawn did target them, but it's not really something that can be done precisely.

Actually, one of the vignettes in From a Certain Point of View reportedly is about the Death Star dianoga, which has journeys throughout the galaxy before ending up in the trash compactor and sensed Luke's importance because she was Force-sensitive and let him go because of that. I'm

Read it. Yeah, it was a baptism/blessing, not a strangling.

Jedi Trial was written by a former US Marine. It was indeed quite boring.

Haven't read that, but I believe you.

CH17: Leia and Winter are wandering the corridors, having pointed conversations and watching everyone nearby to see who's around when they see what's reported.

Ghent has an office with a lightsabre hole entrance where's he's sifting the data. Bel Ibliss is helping the operation. Now that they have the Delta Source transmissions, they can see what it's sending and use that to narrow the field. There's a very wide range of data from high level conversations to random trivia, and between Winter's perfect memory and Ghent's sifting, they have a lot to work with. But not enough, apparently. Ghent has one possibility, which Winter debunks.

Bel Ibliss comes in and asks Leia to come witness their Stardust (heh) plan in action. They talk about Delta Source, and Ibliss mentions that he thinks it could be some kind of automated system, which also occurred to me when the 'idle gossip' came up.

In the war room, they're about to put their plan into action. An unmanned transport is tasked with releasing luminous dust in order to try to mark asteroids. Unfortunately, 'orbit' is a lot of ground to cover.

Three transports unleash their dust, and actually end up finding one of the asteroids, which is impressive progress really. A second asteroid (I think) hits one of the transports, but the fleet can't catch it. Still, 1/22 is pretty good on the first day of scanning. The crippled transport crashes into the shield and disintegrates,which triggers a memory of another one for Winter, which she doesn't elaborate on.

In the decrypting room, Ghent's sifting program has failed to find a candidate. Either DS suspects something, there's a whole crew of spies, or it's an automated system.

Then Winter gives them something. Every conversation that was transmitted took place in the Grand Corridor. Which should be detected by counterintelligence, unless it turns off during sweeps. A droid is the most likely suspect. So they decide to watch the next sweep.

There are a lot of droids in the palace. Translators, maintenance, the messengers. But no spies, according to the sweeps. Even Winter has trouble telling droids apart, so narrowing it down will be tricky.

It occurs to me that they probably shouldn't be having this conversation in the Grand Corridor itself. Leia contemplates their actions while idly watching the nearest potted plant, and notices that it pulses in time with noise...

They dig down and find the microphones eight metres underground. Quite a distance.

I'll tell you this straight out, I did not suspect the potted plants. An automated system became a possibility as soon as they mentioned the random transmissions,but I didn't think about it. So Durkon was right, the trees were plotting against us all.

And Delta Source is rumbled before Pellaeon can inherit it. That's a shame, would have been interesting to see if Thrawn would fulfill his promise.

[Friv]

And Delta Source is rumbled before Pellaeon can inherit it. That's a shame, would have been interesting to see if Thrawn would fulfill his promise.

If I were uncharitable, I would expect that Thrawn made that promise secure in the knowledge that Delta Source would be gone before he had to follow through, simply because while it's an ingenious spying method, it's impossible to conceal forever. But making the promise is a sign of favour, and Thrawn wants competent people working hard for him.