Reading Heir to the Empire

[Velaryon]

Shatterpoint (the Mace Windu novel) doesn't have Obi-Wan and Anakin in it (at least not more than just a mention, according to Wookieepedia).

It has been many years since I read Shatterpoint, and I didn't find it all that memorable, but I thought they showed up for at least a few pages.

I'm pretty sure the MedStar and Republic Commando books don't either. I'll admit that I've tried to repress the RC books after Hard Contact, so I may be forgetting something.

Never got around to MedStar so I don't know anything about those. Republic Commando was the Karen Traviss series, right? Wouldn't surprise me if they didn't show up in those, what with her pathological hatred of Jedi.

Still, even if you're both right on all counts, there were still a LOT of novels set in that time period that shoehorned in appearances from Obi-Wan and Anakin.

[DataNinja]

Man, I really should re-read Outbound Flight for this. I'm forgetting everything but the broad strokes of what happens.

Never got around to MedStar so I don't know anything about those. Republic Commando was the Karen Traviss series, right? Wouldn't surprise me if they didn't show up in those, what with her pathological hatred of Jedi.

Yeah, they didn't show up in RC. Didn't realize she had such a hatred for Jedi, but that makes things make a lot more sense in hindsight... (But that's kinda drifting away from the point of this thread.)

[Velaryon]

Yeah, they didn't show up in RC. Didn't realize she had such a hatred for Jedi, but that makes things make a lot more sense in hindsight... (But that's kinda drifting away from the point of this thread.)

Hatred for Jedi combined with a fascination, bordering on obsession with Mandalorians (and by extension clone troopers, since they're made from a Mandalorian). It led to major clashes with other authors when she collaborated on the Legacy of the Force series. But as you say, we're wandering away from the point of this thread.



As for Zahn's other Thrawn-related works, I wasn't terribly thrilled with Outbound Flight. I did like some things about it, but I had some issues as well.

Spoiler: My pros and cons of Outbound Flight

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Pros:
-I like young Thrawn
-hinting that the Chiss and Darth Sidious were both aware of the Yuuzhan Vong and taking steps toward preparing against their eventual invasion was pretty cool.
-the Vagaari were interesting. I would have liked to see more of them.

Cons:
-Anakin's and Obi-Wan's presence in the story felt unnecessary and forced. This is exactly the type of thing I was referring to when I griped about them being shoehorned into most of the prequel-era books.
-The real Jorus C'baoth is pretty much just as unstable as his clone, which to me undermines the whole "cloning cylinders make them crazy" thing from the original books.

On the whole, I thought the Hand of Thrawn duology were significantly better.

[DataNinja]

Spoiler: My pros and cons of Outbound Flight

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-The real Jorus C'baoth is pretty much just as unstable as his clone, which to me undermines the whole "cloning cylinders make them crazy" thing from the original books.

Spoiler

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Wasn't it only crazy if you did the accelerated development? If you did the cloning over, like, ten years or more, then it'd be fine. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly. (Although, yes, the Trilogy did kind of point towards him being crazy because he was a clone, but I don't believe it explicitly said that.)

[hamishspence]

Spoiler

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Wasn't it only crazy if you did the accelerated development? If you did the cloning over, like, ten years or more, then it'd be fine. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly. (Although, yes, the Trilogy did kind of point towards him being crazy because he was a clone, but I don't believe it explicitly said that.)

Heir to the Empire:

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"Who is it we've brought aboard the Chimaera?" Thrawn finished the question for him. "I should have thought that obvious. Joruus C'baoth — note the telltale mispronunciation of the name Jorus — is a clone."

Pellaeon stared at him. "A clone?"

"Certainly," Thrawn said. "Created from a tissue sample, probably sometime just before the real C'baoth's death."

"Early in the war, in other words," Pellaeon said, swallowing hard. The early clones — or at least those the fleet had faced — had been highly unstable, both mentally and emotionally. Sometimes spectacularly so...

The length of growth period part comes up in The Last Command:

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No matter how many times he saw it happen, he would never get used to these sudden dips into the slippery twilight of clone madness. It had, he knew, been a universal problem with the early cloning experiments: a permanent mental and emotional instability, inversely scaled to the length of the duplicate's growth cycle. Few of the scientific papers on the subject had survived the Clone Wars era, but Pellaeon had come across one that had suggested that no clone grown to maturity in less than a year would be stable enough to survive outside of a totally controlled environment.

Given the destruction they'd unleashed on the galaxy, Pellaeon had always assumed that the clonemasters had eventually found at least a partial solution to the problem. Whether they had recognized the underlying cause of the madness was another question entirely.

It could very well be that Thrawn was the first to truly understand it.

and later, it's suggested that a non-insane C'baoth can be cloned:

Spoiler

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"C'baoth is insane, Captain - that we both agree on. But such insanity is in his mind. Not in his body."

Pellaeon stared at him. "Are you suggesting we clone him?"

"Why not?" Thrawn asked. "Not at Mount Tantiss itself, certainly, given the conditions there. Most likely not at the speed which that facility allows, either - that's all well and good for techs and TIE fighter pilots, but not a project of this delicacy. No, I envision bringing such a clone to childhood and then allowing it to grow to maturity at a normal pace for its last ten or fifteen years. Under suitable upbringing conditions, of course."

"I see," Pellaeon said, struggling to keep his voice steady. A young C'baoth - or maybe two or ten or twenty of them - running loose around the galaxy. This was an idea that was going to take some getting used to.

[Velaryon]

Spoiler: Jorus/Joruus

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Based on the quotes hamishspence has provided (and thank you for that), it does seem to me that Joruus was intended to be mad because he was a clone, and especially because of the way he was grown. And that's why actual Jorus wasn't a big hit with me in Outbound Flight, as he felt like a jarring retcon to me.

[Blackhawk748]

On the Jedi emotion thing, i would like to point out hte Luke's New Jedi Order definitely relaxed on the emotion thing. They where more about having a hand on the reigns of your emotions, but being aware that they are a thing that you do need to expierence.

[Sapphire Guard]

Yeah, but I never felt the PT Jedi were much different, in regards to emotion, nobody has a problem with em unless something happens like Anakin trying to abandon his duty to save Padme.

20 Chapters...

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Thrawn was much improved until now, but he gets to win a battle here by using two separate technologies that he's established as completely unfamiliar with (droids and interdictor fields) Insert copy paste of previous complaints here.

C'Baoth has taken up interior decorating, baffling everyone else, and appears to be slowly taking control of the ship.

Palpatine's still being himself. Setting up/igniting a trade dispute on a moment's notice to pull Obi Wan off the ship is genius on multiple levels.

[Velaryon]

Yeah, but I never felt the PT Jedi were much different, in regards to emotion, nobody has a problem with em unless something happens like Anakin trying to abandon his duty to save Padme.

Anakin's entire relationship with Padme is conducted in secret because the Jedi don't approve of attachments. The Jedi order wanted to reject a nine year-old boy as too old to begin their training because he wasn't an infant when they found him. Heck, despite concerns about Anakin's emotional attachments, the Jedi made no effort whatsoever to even look in on his mother, let alone secure her safety, for ten whole years. Nor did they allow him to contact her. None of these are signs of an order that produces stable, emotionally healthy people. You know who does stuff this way? Cults.

It's true that the prequel films present the average Jedi as being more-or-less well adjusted, but I'd argue that has more to do with the spotlight being so firmly fixed on Anakin and his melodrama.

By contrast, the new Jedi order under Luke Skywalker was able to find adults with a variety of lived experiences (everything from slaves to police officers to clones), and while he did lose a few to the Dark Side, most of them came out pretty well. A couple of those who did fall were even able to be redeemed.

[BWR]

Never got around to MedStar so I don't know anything about those. Republic Commando was the Karen Traviss series, right? Wouldn't surprise me if they didn't show up in those, what with her pathological hatred of Jedi.

Yeah, there's a reason I stopped buying her ****. RC: Hard Contact was and still is a decent book, but they quickly got terrible.

You know who does stuff this way? Cults.

And most religions...wait.
Seriously, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. With the Dark Side being so dangerous proper education from a young age makes sense.

By contrast, the new Jedi order under Luke Skywalker was able to find adults with a variety of lived experiences (everything from slaves to police officers to clones), and while he did lose a few to the Dark Side, most of them came out pretty well. A couple of those who did fall were even able to be redeemed.

And in a few years Luke had way more failures than the Jedi order did in decades. Maybe there was something to their teachings. And the redemption of others devalues Anakin's story, so they really shouldn't happen.

[Friv]

And in a few years Luke had way more failures than the Jedi order did in decades. Maybe there was something to their teachings. And the redemption of others devalues Anakin's story, so they really shouldn't happen.

I would disagree. Anakin's redemption was as much about Luke's story as it was about his own. Luke proved that it was possible to redeem someone who had fallen to the Dark Side, ironically by reversing the means to make them fall - calling upon their attachments and passions to oppose their hatred, pulling them out until they could find balance again.

Once Luke had made this discovery, and Anakin had proved it successful, it makes perfect sense for him to teach it, and to use those techniques to continue saving people. Each Jedi redeemed this way is proof that Anakin's redemption was real.

As for the Jedi Order - all of the evidence from the various Clone Wars media is that Jedi were starting to fall in growing numbers as the Clone Wars progressed. Some were seduced by Dooku, some let their fear and anger consume them in war and were struck down, some went full-on murderous like that one evil general who defected to the Seperatists. The Jedi Order had constructed itself on a philosophy that couldn't actually adapt to change. It functioned only as long as the Republic it was built on functioned, and it couldn't adapt to danger. That's why they were destroyed.

[Blackhawk748]

And in a few years Luke had way more failures than the Jedi order did in decades. Maybe there was something to their teachings. And the redemption of others devalues Anakin's story, so they really shouldn't happen.

And after that initial rash of failures (a few of which where directly caused by Dark Siders, spirits or otehrwise) he had a pretty low failure rate. So i would say those initial failures came from Luke, being something like 26-27 at the time, not really knowing how to teach or how to spot those things. Hell, the man even admits it himself when hes running the Praxeum.

[Kish]

And the redemption of others devalues Anakin's story, so they really shouldn't happen.

Uh...what?

Saying that Anakin's story requires being the only Jedi who ever fell and then came back to the light is hard for me to wrap my mind around even as something anyone would want. As far as it actually being presented, that's the definition of a ship that sailed, pretty much as soon as there was an EU.

[Sapphire Guard]

That's attachments, not emotions. Besides, you can get special permission sometimes, as per Ki Adi Mundi. Alternatively, leave the Jedi Order. There doesn't appear to be any stigma to it, Dooku left and was still liked and respected by the Jedi Council.

Re Schmi, I think Qui Gonn would have gone back for her, but he died. It depends whether he told the Jedi Council the full story (he could be pretty manipulative) or not. We don't know what happened during those years, maybe someone did check up and found her free and happily married.

War is very stressful, it breaks plenty of people whether they have attachments or not. That some (few?) Jedi broke under the strain isn't surprising or significant.

Spoiler: Clone Wars Fallen Jedi

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Bariss, Krell...who else? Those two are very much the exception, not the rule.

Anyway, finished Outbound Flight

Spoiler

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I was broadly on board with how Thrawn's hypercompetence wasn't dragging down the narrative as much in this book, but then the climax involved him trumping the TF with their own tech, the Vagaari with theirs, and the Jedi with Force Knowledge.

...Sigh.

[tomandtish]

Hatred for Jedi combined with a fascination, bordering on obsession with Mandalorians (and by extension clone troopers, since they're made from a Mandalorian). It led to major clashes with other authors when she collaborated on the Legacy of the Force series. But as you say, we're wandering away from the point of this thread.



As for Zahn's other Thrawn-related works, I wasn't terribly thrilled with Outbound Flight. I did like some things about it, but I had some issues as well.

Spoiler: My pros and cons of Outbound Flight

Show

Pros:
-I like young Thrawn
-hinting that the Chiss and Darth Sidious were both aware of the Yuuzhan Vong and taking steps toward preparing against their eventual invasion was pretty cool.
-the Vagaari were interesting. I would have liked to see more of them.

Cons:
-Anakin's and Obi-Wan's presence in the story felt unnecessary and forced. This is exactly the type of thing I was referring to when I griped about them being shoehorned into most of the prequel-era books.
-The real Jorus C'baoth is pretty much just as unstable as his clone, which to me undermines the whole "cloning cylinders make them crazy" thing from the original books.

On the whole, I thought the Hand of Thrawn duology were significantly better.

Regarding C'Baoth...

Spoiler

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He's not unstable as such in Outbound as he is when he's a clone. He still has the same ideas about Jedi superiority. But as a clone he also is prone to violent outbursts, being distracted, and overall less focused.

In short, don;t confuse his ideology with his craziness. The ideology hasn't changed at all. The crazy just changes what and how he acts to implement it.

[Peelee]

Regarding C'Baoth...

Spoiler

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He's not unstable as such in Outbound as he is when he's a clone. He still has the same ideas about Jedi superiority. But as a clone he also is prone to violent outbursts, being distracted, and overall less focused.

In short, don;t confuse his ideology with his craziness. The ideology hasn't changed at all. The crazy just changes what and how he acts to implement it.

Spoiler: This and the one I quoted are not spoilers if you've read the trilogy and Outbound Flight.

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Agreed. He's a fascist, but a perfectly sane one.

Also, been a while, but didn't Thrawn basically luck out of dying from C'Baoth's Force choke?

[BWR]

Uh...what?

Saying that Anakin's story requires being the only Jedi who ever fell and then came back to the light is hard for me to wrap my mind around even as something anyone would want. As far as it actually being presented, that's the definition of a ship that sailed, pretty much as soon as there was an EU.

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny".
If people falling and being redeemed are not so rare as to be unheard of, you'd think Yoda and Obi-wan would know. Their advice to Luke would be less "Seriously, you have to kill them both" and more like "eh, people fall and get redeemed all the time. Just talk about the power of friendship or something."
The redemption of Anakin works best if it isn't initially considered possible. It explains why the Jedi were so extreme in their selection and training of youngsters - because once you fall, you aren't coming back. The dangers of darksiders is so great that it warrants the 'stealing' of children. Whether or not the ship has sailed is not the point, the point is that the ship is a bad idea in general.

[hamishspence]

Uh...what?

Saying that Anakin's story requires being the only Jedi who ever fell and then came back to the light is hard for me to wrap my mind around even as something anyone would want. As far as it actually being presented, that's the definition of a ship that sailed, pretty much as soon as there was an EU.

It sailed in the newcanon too, with Dark Disciple - Quinlan Vos is a Jedi Master that fell, quite a long way, and was redeemed (he's still "Master Vos" in ROTS).

[The_Snark]

The redemption of Anakin works best if it isn't initially considered possible. It explains why the Jedi were so extreme in their selection and training of youngsters - because once you fall, you aren't coming back. The dangers of darksiders is so great that it warrants the 'stealing' of children. Whether or not the ship has sailed is not the point, the point is that the ship is a bad idea in general.

Eh. I think "once you fall, you might come back but a lot of people are going to die along the way" is a perfectly good explanation for why they're so extreme. Just because something is known to happen doesn't mean it's common, or that every Jedi is going to be blasé about the possibility.

(Not saying the EU didn't go overboard with redemption arcs, because I can easily believe they did, but I don't think it's necessary that Anakin be a literal first. Redemption ought to be something rare and special, it doesn't need to be unique.)

On Outbound Flight:

Spoiler

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I was sort of lukewarm about this book, mostly because I feel like it tried to retroactively make Thrawn a sort of anti-villain or even anti-hero, and I actually liked Thrawn as a straight villain. He wasn't gratuitously evil, mind you, which set him apart a bit from Vader/Tarkin/the Emperor/etc... but when you got down to it, he was perfectly willing to order summary executions, bomb civilian targets, or kidnap children and hand over to a madman, if it furthered his strategic goals.

I suppose it does make sense that a younger Thrawn, less jaded and not yet influenced by the Emperor, would have stronger scruples, but... eh. It feels like part of a larger pattern of trying to retcon/explain/justify Thrawn, not just "here's what he looked like before he fell down the slippery slope". (I have similar misgivings about Mara Jade's portrayal in Allegiance.)

I actually liked his interaction with the original C'baoth, though. Thrawn is normally very good at judging people, but he just cannot seem to handle C'baoth. He screws up with the original, first by thinking he can be reasoned with, then by underestimating the Force, and it almost costs him his life (instead, it costs him his bloodless victory). When he meets the clone, he knows not to repeat those mistakes: he's got ysalamiri to protect him from the Force, and he intends to use and manipulate C'baoth rather than try to work with him. But... he still thinks he can predict C'baoth, and ultimately he's wrong about that. C'baoth's ambition and mind control skills both move a little faster than Thrawn anticipates, and the only reason it doesn't explode spectacularly in his face is because Our Heroes intervene.

It's an interesting failure from a character who hardly ever makes mistakes.

(Also, it's amusing to read that scene from Heir to the Empire and imagine Thrawn thinking "argh, not THIS guy again" when he sees C'baoth.)

[Keltest]

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny".

You know, ive always interpreted this line as more "Once you do these things, you might realize they were bad, but the consequences will follow you forever."

If Vader had survived the Death Star II, he wouldn't be welcomed as a hero by the Alliance, or as a father by Leia, he's going to be the guy who restrained her and forced her to watch Alderaan explode. He's going to be the guy who led the assault on Hoth. He's going to be the guy who killed most of the Jedi. And even if Luke has enough clout to keep the Alliance from executing him on the spot, Anakin would still have to live with that.

[Kish]

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny".
If people falling and being redeemed are not so rare as to be unheard of, you'd think Yoda and Obi-wan would know. Their advice to Luke would be less "Seriously, you have to kill them both" and more like "eh, people fall and get redeemed all the time. Just talk about the power of friendship or something."

Well there's an excluded middle fallacy.

In any event, even if you weren't building your argument on fallacies, it remains: the way you're saying it should have been didn't survive five minutes of the EU as a possibility.

[Cikomyr]

You know, for all we know, Darth Vader was never really "redeemed". He sided with Luke over the Emprah, but we hardly seen him actually giving up the Dark Side. Him accepting with peace his own inevitable death is probably the only genuinely redeemed behavior we seen.

Theres a reason "redemption equals death". We dont know if Vader, if he had survived, would have genuinely given up on the Dark Side. The Dark Side is a powerful drug.

[Keltest]

You know, for all we know, Darth Vader was never really "redeemed". He sided with Luke over the Emprah, but we hardly seen him actually giving up the Dark Side. Him accepting with peace his own inevitable death is probably the only genuinely redeemed behavior we seen.

Theres a reason "redemption equals death". We dont know if Vader, if he had survived, would have genuinely given up on the Dark Side. The Dark Side is a powerful drug.

A significant part of Vader's use of the Dark Side comes from his self loathing. Reuniting with family who saw value in him would likely have helped.

[hamishspence]

In any event, even if you weren't building your argument on fallacies, it remains: the way you're saying it should have been didn't survive five minutes of the EU as a possibility.

Not just that - the first non-Vader "redeemed darksider" was very early on - pre-Bantam era in fact.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flint

His abandoning of the Empire and his role as a Sith Lord, took place in a 1984 comic: Marvel Star Wars 92: The Dream.

[Cikomyr]

A significant part of Vader's use of the Dark Side comes from his self loathing. Reuniting with family who saw value in him would likely have helped.

Self loathing, and a healthy dose of Death-denial for Anakin himself. Wisecrack made a good video about the Philosphy of Darth Vader.

But if you look at the problems that lead to the Dark Side as psychological issues, simply removing the root issue does not suddenly make someone magically healed. It takes a long time and time for someone's psychological scars to heal.

Vader had 15 minutes. Maybe he could have actially made it with more time, but i think he would always be akin to a Sober heroin addict. In fact, its possible the only true way to give up the Dark Side would be to cut yourself from the Force entirely, and focus only on spiritual enlightnment.

[Keltest]

Self loathing, and a healthy dose of Death-denial for Anakin himself. Wisecrack made a good video about the Philosphy of Darth Vader.

But if you look at the problems that lead to the Dark Side as psychological issues, simply removing the root issue does not suddenly make someone magically healed. It takes a long time and time for someone's psychological scars to heal.

Vader had 15 minutes. Maybe he could have actially made it with more time, but i think he would always be akin to a Sober heroin addict. In fact, its possible the only true way to give up the Dark Side would be to cut yourself from the Force entirely, and focus only on spiritual enlightnment.

That's not really consistent with any other portrayal of the Dark Side except for the (incorrect) one that Yoda tries to sell Luke on.

[Cikomyr]

That's not really consistent with any other portrayal of the Dark Side except for the (incorrect) one that Yoda tries to sell Luke on.

Look at it from outside the EU where every Darth **** and Mary can redeem after a pep talk

[tomandtish]

Spoiler: This and the one I quoted are not spoilers if you've read the trilogy and Outbound Flight.

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Agreed. He's a fascist, but a perfectly sane one.

Also, been a while, but didn't Thrawn basically luck out of dying from C'Baoth's Force choke?

Depends...

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Doriana saves him by activating the ships that fill Outbound with radiation. So Thrawn did have something in place to destroy C'Baoth's ship, but couldn't activate it himself. Is that luck?

[Keltest]

Meaning...if you go solely by a trilogy in which only one person redeems, you can prove that 100% of the time, redemption happens exactly like that time?

Yeah... personally im not especially convinced by any argument that asks us to ignore a significant chunk of the data.

[Cikomyr]

Yeah... personally im not especially convinced by any argument that asks us to ignore a significant chunk of the data.

Except the issue is that Star wars writers have proven to lack significant imagination for EVERYTHING, and they are obsessed over recreating every motifs from the movies.

Twilecks are dancers or gangsters
Hutts are gangsters
Wookies are warriors
Biths are musicians
Gammoreans are henchmen
Aqualish are bullies

A group of people insisting that the one feature we see on display just happens to be the generic trait of that specie would also latch on "Siths/Darksiders can be redeemed". Ya know, it happened in the movies, therefore is must be the norm!