Reading Heir to the Empire

[Peelee]

Indeed. Misspelling Wookiepeedia should never be done.

.....I got my eye on you.

[DataNinja]

Wookiees. 2 E's.

Indeed. Misspelling Wookiepeedia should never be done.

.....I got my eye on you.

And this is why I triplee cheeckeed my speelling of 'Wookieepedia' wheen I brought it up eearlieer. Beecausee this happeens at leeast oncee in eeveery Star Wars threead.
Okay, I'm pretty sure I'm safe on the double 'E' front.

[Yana]

Indeed. Misspelling Wookiepeedia should never be done.

If I didn't know any beetter, I'd think our friendly C'thuloid mod was beeing facetious.

Naaaaaah.

[Yora]

It's "cthu'loid".

[Aeson]

It's "cthu'loid".

Given that Cthulhu can be spelled without an apostrophe, one could argue that both "c'thuloid" and "cthu'loid" are wrong and that "cthuloid," "cthulhoid," or even "cthulhuoid" is the correct spelling.

[Kish]

...Most of your explanations seem to make things look worse, to be honest. The navy is such a shambles that only Thrawn can reforge it, Pellaeon has a chance to learn the error of his ways due to proximity to Thrawn. But the book itself still has plenty of time to change my mind.

While I have no brief for the EU and wish Thrawn had stayed unofficial, I think objecting to any book on the grounds that it portrays the Imperial Fleet in the three movies where it exists as a shambles of horrifying incompetence (most especially, that guy in black who keeps killing people whenever he gets annoyed and snatches defeat from the jaws of victory by gratuitously doublecrossing his allies is incompetent) is approximately as valid as objecting to that book on the grounds that it suggests Chewbacca is hairy.

Spoiler

Show

I don't think Thrawn underestimated the Noghri's personal loyalty to Darth Vader, so much as he didn't realize Leia was unravelling the ruse the Empire had perpetrated to make them serve it. Not an intellectual failing so much as a moral one; he wasn't as cartoonishly evil as Vader or the Emperor, but he was still going by a villain's playbook.

[Sholos]

Spoiler

Show

I thought there were two big reasons Rukh turns on Thrawn. One, that Leia is Vader's daughter and thus got a little bit of inherited respect and awe, and (more importantly, I think) she turned the Noghri onto the fact that Thrawn was actually crippling their planet instead of saving it like he told them. Their loyalty wasn't nearly enough to survive such a massive betrayal, and that was ultimately Thrawn's personal undoing.

[Sapphire Guard]

If you're talking to me, I explicitly said that Thrawn's ideas on the state of the Navy differs from the Emperor's, and from other Imperial leaders. I never said only Thrawn could reforge it, I just said Thrawn is reforging it into what he believes it needs, because he's the head of the Empire. Pellaeon is a good officer, but Thrawn wants more than good officers, Thrawn wants people to be able to see things like he does. It's not due to proximity to Thrawn, it's due to being directly taught by Thrawn.

I'm not specifically talking to anyone, it's just that the book seems to be constantly pushing how much better Thrawn is than non-Thrawn imperial leadership. It's not even his actions that are irking me, it's just how in every Thrawn scene (so far), at least once someone takes a shot at non Thrawn leadership, and we're not really led to believe that they might be wrong.

I think objecting to any book on the grounds that it portrays the Imperial Fleet in the three movies where it exists as a shambles of horrifying incompetence (most especially, that guy in black who keeps killing people whenever he gets annoyed and snatches defeat from the jaws of victory by gratuitously doublecrossing his allies is incompetent) is approximately as valid as objecting to that book on the grounds that it suggests Chewbacca is hairy.

It wasn't, though, not really. The incompetence is usually part of some kind of trap, otherwise they're always a major threat.

I know I just finished talking about how it was poor form to take shots at other works, but I still found the Rebel Council in this one chapter more plausible than the new canon version.

CH9: We're once more on the bridge of the Chimaera, and preparing for some kind of attack while Thrawn tests out C'Baoth's co ordinating abilities. During this attack, C'Baoth is also co-ordinating two other attacks in other Star systems, which is pretty impressive range. Thrawn orders a part of one force to break off, which C'Baoth can achieve.

Pellaeon compares previous data to this attack and discovers that yup, C'Baoth is significantly enhancing the performance of his troops. He gets contradicted again when he orders a distress beacon destroyed, and the task force retreats, having inflicted a lightly damaging hit and run strike. They retreat, and C'Baoth gripes a bit about not having his Jedi. Thrawn does not like being questioned.

A freighter, the Wild Karrde (heh, just noticed the pun, that was actually funny because it took a reread before I caught it.) is watching the battle from a distance. Brave of them, under the circumstances. Karrde is interested in what Thrawn's up to, and Mara appears to know the Grand Admiral personally, which is interesting. Karrde decides that a warzone is a poor spot for making contraband deliveries, which Mara takes exception to -she doesn't like breaking her word, even though a planetary invasion is a pretty good excuse for a late delivery.

Mara appears to hold a grudge against Luke, but decides now is not the time to act on it.

Luke is trying to teach Leia how to use a lightsabre, but is not confident in his abilities considering his own training is fairly brief.

Han comes in and reports on Thrawn's treble attack. Leia and Akbar know he's up to something, but beyond that aren't so sure exactly what. Leia's called in on diplomatic damage control duty, but Luke can't come because the natives don't like Jedi. Hmm. What are the odds the Imperials are aware of that?

Some of the Jedi went Dark during the Clone Wars, and one went to Dagobah, which interests Luke of course. Leia and Han leave, and Luke plays with the remote on a high difficulty setting. He loses track of time, which is unusual in combat, and he decides to take a trip to Dagobah on his X Wing.

Pellaeon is growing on me, he's handling well the difficulties of standing between Thrawn and C'Baoth, while trying to do his job on the occasions he's allowed to. Luke has very reasonable doubts over whether he's capable of actually teaching, and our teams gets split thanks to anti Jedi sentiment. Part of the plan?

Karrde's crew is brave and skilled enough to rubberneck a planetary invasion, they're not your average crew, I don't think.

I'm undecided as to whether to start counting the shots at non Thrawn leadership or not bother anymore and take it as a given.

The Mod Radiant: I really shouldn't have to say this, but spoilers are not only rude, but officially against the forum rules.

I have just removed or put in spoiler blocks multiple open spoilers, at least one of them very major, that should never have been posted outside a spoiler block in the first place.

If it's about a character that is in this trilogy and is after the point where Sapphire Guard has read up to, whether actually in this trilogy or in future series, it belongs in a spoiler block. Even if the only thing it spoils is that a particular character survives, such as has already been unfortunately spoiled about Pellaeon.

Much obliged. Thanks for your support.

[Peelee]

A freighter, the Wild Karrde (heh, just noticed the pun, that was actually funny because it took a reread before I caught it.)

Zahn loves punny ship names. And usually has a character love them as well, so they make sense in-universe for whatever universe he's writing in. My favorite name so far is a fancy ritzy ship called the Uwana Buyer. Took me way too long to realize how the pronunciation was supposed to work out. It's only in a short story in Tales from the Empire, unrelated to this at all, I just liked the pun.

I'm undecided as to whether to start counting the shots at non Thrawn leadership or not bother anymore and take it as a given.

If it bugs you, then absolutely call it out. I do think you'll be more forgiving of it as you get through the trilogy, if for no other reason than I and most others who have read it and commented in this thread are.

[Gnoman]

There's one interesting thing you seem to have missed in this chapter. The "shots at non-Thrawn leadership" mostly aren't. Most of the "conventional military wisdom" Thrawn is bucking here is quite sound assuming that the difficulties presented are accurate (which the rest of the EU suggests is the case). This means that Thrawn's genius isn't merely his bizarre psychological gambits but a willingness to use his forces in extremely unorthodox ways that succeed because he put the work into preparing for them properly.

[DataNinja]

Zahn loves punny ship names. And usually has a character love them as well, so they make sense in-universe for whatever universe he's writing in. My favorite name so far is a fancy ritzy ship called the Uwana Buyer. Took me way too long to realize how the pronunciation was supposed to work out. It's only in a short story in Tales from the Empire, unrelated to this at all, I just liked the pun.

Yeah, it took me until my second or third read through all the books to catch every ship pun. It's always something that makes me smile, because I live in an ocean-side city, and sailors sure do love to have punny names for their ships. (At least around here.)

[The Glyphstone]

I fully support a 'Potshots at the OT' counter as part of your readalong, if it makes it more fun to do.

[Daimbert]

There's one interesting thing you seem to have missed in this chapter. The "shots at non-Thrawn leadership" mostly aren't. Most of the "conventional military wisdom" Thrawn is bucking here is quite sound assuming that the difficulties presented are accurate (which the rest of the EU suggests is the case). This means that Thrawn's genius isn't merely his bizarre psychological gambits but a willingness to use his forces in extremely unorthodox ways that succeed because he put the work into preparing for them properly.

Yeah, my impression of Thrawn is always that he's less calling out complete incompetence and more calling out a lack of creativity, following conventional military wisdom even when it doesn't make sense to do so, which follows from the Emperor and Vader being so controlling and expecting everyone to follow orders on the pain of death or direct mental domination through the Battle Meditation. Imperial officers are trained to obey, not to think, and that lack of thinking in general causes much problems for them in the OT.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Thrawn also gets compared to another general in a war that's probably not board-safe to mention due to being recent and politically influential, but he was known for daring and unorthodox tactics in a certain war's North African theater that gained a lot of ground, although they didn't mesh with his nation's much more inflexible strategic plan. Both Thrawn and the real-life guy are often lauded for strategic genius when, mostly, they were just far more willing to do unorthodox things than the rest of the more rigid military, and unorthodox tactics often work spectacularly...at least once.

[pendell]

Thrawn also gets compared to another general in a war that's probably not board-safe to mention due to being recent and politically influential, but he was known for daring and unorthodox tactics in a certain war's North African theater that gained a lot of ground, although they didn't mesh with his nation's much more inflexible strategic plan. Both Thrawn and the real-life guy are often lauded for strategic genius when, mostly, they were just far more willing to do unorthodox things than the rest of the more rigid military, and unorthodox tactics often work spectacularly...at least once.

I don't think it's unfair to compare Thrawn to Rommel, nor not-board-safe to do so. It's not an unreasonable comparison because Thrawn is not a Sith Lord nor a subscriber to their ideology -- but, like Rommel, he serves a totalitarian empire which has an irrational, ideological basis.

Where the comparison falls down is the fact that the dictator is dead in Thrawn's case -- but Thrawn is still trying to enact at least some part of the Emperor's vision. That's different from Rommel who wound up dying when he did precisely because he opposed the "Emperor" in his lifetime directly, and paid the price for it.

I also don't think it's surprising if Zahn based his military characters on real-life military models. Not being a military person himself, I'd be surprised if he could imagine a believable professional from whole cloth -- of course he's modeling Pelleaon and Thrawn on real-world people. The question is, which ones?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sapphire Guard]

There's one interesting thing you seem to have missed in this chapter. The "shots at non-Thrawn leadership" mostly aren't. Most of the "conventional military wisdom" Thrawn is bucking here is quite sound assuming that the difficulties presented are accurate (which the rest of the EU suggests is the case). This means that Thrawn's genius isn't merely his bizarre psychological gambits but a willingness to use his forces in extremely unorthodox ways that succeed because he put the work into preparing for them properly.

The thing is, there's not just one or two of them. They're in every scene from the Imperials perspective, and do more to set up this idea 'What? I don't need conventional wisdom, for I am Thrawn!' And given that the flaws in the conventional military wisdom are often being created by this book, it feels a lot like they are being created just to be something he can dismiss. Direct mental domination wasn't a thing before this book, so it's this book creating a flaw in order to call it out. We don't see much of what happens to the rest of the fleet at Endor, but this book decided that they fought back 'like cadets' so Thrawn could call them on it.

Rommel was heavily propagandad by both sides, it's hard to know exactly what his legacy is. Military doctrine was already heavily focused on mobile tank led offensives, they just didn't want one in North Africa when they were busy with the Soviets. But we shouldn't take this discussion too far. Happy to hear more in PM, though, or be directed to other discussions/sources.

CH10:
Wedge, Leia, and Han survey the damage from Thrawn's attack, wondering why it wasn't more extensive, as well as why attack an unimportant world. Leia suggests it's just an attack of opportunity on a soft target, Han decides it's a test of a 'new transmission system'. Leia suspects Jedi, which gets Wedge talking about the C'Baoth rumours Thrawn set.

Then the Noghri attack, which Leia predicts slightly with the Force. They take cover behind a hunk of metal.Wedge looks out.

One look was all he got before a blaster bolt spattered metal near his face and sent him jerking back. "I'm not sure," he said, "but I think we've got trouble."

Aw, Wedge. Never change.

They hear the Falcon coming, and it lands between them and the shooters. They're about to go for it when they realise that Leia cannot sense Chewbacca aboard, as well as he is not shooting back. It's not the Falcon, it's another YT-1300.

The shielding can take hand blasters, but not a lightsabre, so they bolt for the entrance. The ambushers start firing from within, but Han pulls his trick, releasing poisonous gas into the ship. The Falcon launches its escape pod... but that still leaves the ones at the rim of the crater, right? Where do they go? How far can super distinctive aliens get?

Han reports to Ackbar, not much progress in finding the assailant. Han isn't sure she'll be safe even on Coruscant, which offends Akbar. They both actually use 'out' correctly.

Leia is oddly suspicious of the friendly Bothan on the Council. Han decides he needs to find a bolthole somewhere no one knows about.

Normally, this would be a good plan, but if C'Baoth can sense her, this could go downhill fast.

Great chapter, tense, credible, and pretty much everyone making good decisions. The copy freighter was a very risky but very clever trick.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Rommel was heavily propagandad by both sides, it's hard to know exactly what his legacy is.

Coincidentally, that's exactly what Thrawn's presence in Zahn's Specter of the Past/Vision of the Future duology amounts to. Funny how that particular parallel arose naturally out of fandom and shared-universe storytelling, actually...

(It also amounts to a fair assessment of Napoleon, my other RL comparison point for Thrawn. Did you know he wasn't even short? The British took an endearing nickname and turned it into a such a persistent memetic insult it has a psychological condition named after it.)

[Blackhawk748]

Coincidentally, that's exactly what Thrawn's presence in Zahn's Specter of the Past/Vision of the Future duology amounts to. Funny how that particular parallel arose naturally out of fandom and shared-universe storytelling, actually...

(It also amounts to a fair assessment of Napoleon, my other RL comparison point for Thrawn. Did you know he wasn't even short? The British took an endearing nickname and turned it into a such a persistent memetic insult it has a psychological condition named after it.)

Also the French foot was shorter than the British foot. So Napoleon was 5'10 if i recall.

[Cikomyr]

Also the French foot was shorter than the British foot. So Napoleon was 5'10 if i recall.

And he happened to be often sorrounded by his bodyguard corps; La Guarde Imperiale, which was composed of rather bulky soldiers, so he appeared short.

Napoleon is often depicted as a horrible monster due to English propaganda, but he historically spearheaded a number of reforms that are are the core of modern life.

Not saying he was all good. But he wasnt all bad either.

[tiornys]

The thing is, there's not just one or two of them. They're in every scene from the Imperials perspective, and do more to set up this idea 'What? I don't need conventional wisdom, for I am Thrawn!'

If I recall correctly, we don't so much get "the Imperials' perspective" as we get "Pellaeon's perspective", and that might be why these types of potshots never bothered me. I didn't interpret Thrawn's portrayal as coming from a neutral, reliable narrator; I read it as coming from a biased and unreliable narrator, and I love that kind of thing.

[pendell]

And he happened to be often sorrounded by his bodyguard corps; La Guarde Imperiale, which was composed of rather bulky soldiers, so he appeared short.

Napoleon is often depicted as a horrible monster due to English propaganda, but he historically spearheaded a number of reforms that are are the core of modern life.

Not saying he was all good. But he wasnt all bad either.

He was a military dictator with continental ambitions, but where certain other dictators built death camps, Napoleon built laws .

Of the four Nuremburg charges -- waging aggressive war, genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity -- we can only indict him on #1, waging aggressive war. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that this was 18th century Europe; his military ambitions really weren't that far out of line with those of the Emperors and kings of Europe at the time, who weren't noted for their pacifism.

Measured against the kings and queens of contemporary Europe, he is no worse than the average and a darn sight more militarily competent. I really don't see him as being all that different from Pratchett's Patrician -- not a nice person at all, but the world owes him a debt because he left it more than just slaughter and bloodshed, which is more than can be said for many kings.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cikomyr]

So.. Thrawn is Napoleon?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah pretty much. The fact that he seizes control of a failing monarchic Empire rather than the Republic that's supplanting it notwithstanding.

Although, admittedly, Thrawn was less keen on the "inventing the modern legal code" part and more keen on the "renovating military tactics and strategic aims for a new century" bits.

[Sapphire Guard]

If I recall correctly, we don't so much get "the Imperials' perspective" as we get "Pellaeon's perspective", and that might be why these types of potshots never bothered me. I didn't interpret Thrawn's portrayal as coming from a neutral, reliable narrator; I read it as coming from a biased and unreliable narrator, and I love that kind of thing.]

Unreliable narrators tend to have indications of their unreliability. The likes of Fitzchivalry constantly underestimates himself but we can see from how people interact with him how much respect they hold him in, plus doing stuff like picking up and throwing someone one handed. That's not here, so far as I can tell. I mean we see Pellaeon actually calling up stats and comparing performance in the last chapter, stats which prove Thrawn right. If he was meant to be unreliable I'd expect some kind of counterargument to be made, even if Pellaeon himself didn't believe it, something like ' one of our ships actually did get lost due to ignoring conventional wisdom, but Thrawn and Pellaeon brush it off as unimportant.'

CH11:
Luke lands on Dagobah, musing on how he doesn't crash land this time and how much Yoda had had to do with that. R2 finds him a landing spot, close to that Dark Side Cave, and he heads for Yoda's house partially wondering why he's here-something in the back of his mind poking him.

Yoda's house is grown in, which is a bit of a surprise to someone that grew up in a desert. Nice touch. R2 scans for something electronic, and directs
them back the way they came...right inside the Darkside cave. It's not Yoda's gear, but there's something.

The cave's a bit treacherous to travel through, but Vader's not around this time. He's just thinking that it has nothing else to throw at him when he's handed a vision of being back in Jabba's sail barge. He tries to summon the lightsabre, and a woman snatches it away with the force. My first thought is Leia and that this is some insecurity about being surpassed, but he'd surely notice the slave outfit. Which leaves... Mara, maybe?

The vision fades and he continues through the cave, eventually finding something that sounds like a USB stick.

He returns to his X Wing and has R2 look at it, but he ends up told nothing beyond that Lando once had something similar. So, Lando is the next destination. Will we see our team reunited once more? I'd say 'find out next time', but everyone else has already read this, so...

[Cikomyr]

I read these books mosty in french, but i though the item Luke finds in the cave was described mostly as a flat, round-shaped object with a few buttons. Kind of like a large-ish hockey puck.

Yes, i am Canadian. How do you know?

[Nerd-o-rama]

A woman stealing away his lightsaber as a form of male Freudian anxiety would have made a lot of sense there, but Star Wars tends not to go in for that sort of metaphor.

I mean you could probably read it into the climax of Ep 7 if you wanted, but it'd be a stretch.

[Peelee]

A woman stealing away his lightsaber as a form of male Freudian anxiety would have made a lot of sense there, but Star Wars tends not to go in for that sort of metaphor.

I never even thought of that when reading it.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's described as a small slightly rounded cylinder. My USB stick description was a bit inaccurate (it has keys) but it was the closest I can think of.

CH12:

Han and Leia are arguing with customs about flight clearance. Han namedrops Lando, but he's reluctant to give their real names in case the Imperials are listening. Because this place is so close to the sun, they need a specialised shieldship to bring them planetside. I immediately love the shieldship pilot. Meanwhile, another unidentified ship shows up, which makes them both nervous. After some tension where the other ship is deliberately hiding, it comes into view-Luke's X Wing. Due to recent experiences with ship impersonation, though, they don't immediately drop their guard, until R2 and C3PO notice each other.

They take ten hours to arrive at the base, on the darkside of this sun planet. Leia admires the view, Han points out that it could damage their sensors, and I remember that Thrawn was outfitting a Star Destroyer for use in strong sunlight. Oh dear. Han helps by bringing up mole miners.

The mining complex turns out to be Howl's Moving AT-AT, which makes rather a lot of sense for a mining complex, actually. Lando comes on the line top welcome them in, anbd then suddenly comms get jammed. Han manages to get through after a moment, and Lando notes an Imperial Star Destroyer en route.

Chapter ends there, but I don't want to drop it on that type of cliffhanger, So, bonus chapter.

CH13:

Luke, in his X Wing, sees Han break his approach and sets his X wing for attack. The Destroyer itself is a little heavily damaged by the sun to be a threat, but it can launch TIEs if it gets close enough. Lando is launching fighters, but obviously he wants to protect the complex. Luke takes point.

One squadron of TIEs launch, with ships that look like troop carriers. They briefly worry about a full scale invasion, which would seem like overkill for a small mining complex. He opens proceeding by trying to disrupt the TIE's senses with the Force. He makes contact with another mind,

You will come to me, Luke. You must come to me. I will await you.

He comes back to himself and discovers he has destroyed two TIEs before they and their 'troop carriers' disengage. He doesn't know what to make of the contact.

On the bridge of the Chimera, the Judicator returns from it's mission with fifty one mole miners. Thrawn asks about difficulty, and C'Baoth reveals the mind contact with Luke, which is displeasing to the Imperials. There's the usual sparring and the usual Pellaeon valiantly trying to finish a sentence. C'Baoth decides that it's now time to decamp to Jomark to wait for him. Thrawn elects to take C'Baoth and then ambush Luke on his way there. He does not like being defied.

Pellaeon is less enthusiastic about this, and suggests that they try to take Luke alive because they don't want C'Baoth returning to Wayland. Apparently Thrawn is building himself a fortress of doom in the Emperor's mountain, with Ysalamiri to make the whole thing fortified against the Force.

Hrm...food for thought there. I hope C'Baoth manages at least one good betrayal before he's taken out, so far he's pretty much playing by Thrawns script. On the plus side, this was the first Thrawn scene that didn't take shots at non Thrawn leadership, although it's disappointing how easily C'Baoth appears to be being played. We'll see.

Seems like a lot of damage for a destroyer for the sake of mole miners, not to mention that Lando's going to notice that they're missing right?

[Peelee]

Seems like a lot of damage for a destroyer for the sake of mole miners, not to mention that Lando's going to notice that they're missing right?

It does indeed! Also, Lando may notice, but what could he do about it? He's got a mining operation. The Empire has a ton of warships.

[Sapphire Guard]

It does indeed! Also, Lando may notice, but what could he do about it? He's got a mining operation. The Empire has a ton of warships.

Inform the republic? Not that that will do much, but it will at least let them know that those miner things are important enough to waste an SD on?

CH14: Lando is upset about losing his 51 mole miners, but recovers his manners and welcomes Han and Leia to his operation.

Lord Ecclessis Figg built Cloud City. Hmm.

X Wings with hyperdrives make for uncomfortable long haul trips. Excellent point, actually.

Leia feels there was a chance the SD came here for her, seems pretty unlikely as it wouldn't have stopped, but whatever. Lando agrees with me. His techs pick up a transmitter, and Luke hands over his USB. It turns out it's a ship summoning device, used by the Dark Jedi that was hiding on Dagobah. So if he ever needs a new ship, he knows where to find it.

Katana fleet? Is that a reference to something?

Han asks about Lando's contacts, but there's none he trusts with Leia's life. Closest they have is this Talon Karrde person, but it's just his reputation, not personal knowledge.

Lando suggests burying something underground in the sunlight, but that would be too isolated. Chewbacca suggests Kashyyyk. Which is a good plan as they're trustworthy, but it's a dangerous planet ecology wise. Han is going to fly around in the Falcon as a decoy.

Luke and Leia talk about the Jedi rumours, he wants them kept to herself,. because she can resist interrogation. They speculate that Yoda could hide on Dagobah due to the Darkside cave cancelling out his influence. I'm a bit skeptical, but sure, maybe.

Unfortunately, Leia mentions the C'Baoth rumour, and Luke latches onto it. So he's now heading to Jomark. They call into C3PO, who now has reluctantly taken on Leia's voice, and get ready to travel.

Not too much to say. Luke sets himself up to be ambushed by Thrawn, Lando's back in play. I'd forgotten that he wears a cloak.