Reading Heir to the Empire

[hamishspence]

You know what would be cool?

A prequel to Heir to the Empire.

Have a story with Commander Pellaeon's character, trying to do the right thing as one of the ISD commander under one of the various faction of self-appointed Imperial Warlords.

He then encounters Thrawn, and together they unite the Remnants just in time for the beginning of HttE.

After all, we know that:

1- Pellaeon knows that Thrawn is the most brilliant military mind in the Empire. This is said in chapter 1 of HttE
2- Pellaeon hasnt served under Thrawn previously to the current posting. This means that he wasnt wherever Thrawn was prior to his return in Imperial space. So they had to meet

I am sure the "how Thrawn tamed the Remnant" would be a fun story.

Going by The Essential Guide to Warfare and The Essential Atlas - Pellaeon was serving the Imperial Ruling Council for most of the period between the Battle of Endor and HTTE. Basically, a bunch of bureaucrats, rather than soldier-warlords.


Thrawn apparently didn't need to do that much to reunify the Remnant, in those - the Ruling Council simply turned over military command, to him - but there's hints - that could be expanded into a story.


Tatooine Ghost is a sort of prequel to HTTE - it's set a few weeks after Han & Leia's wedding, and a few weeks before HTTE. Pellaeon is in command of the Chimaera, and Thrawn is in the story - in disguise as a stormtrooper officer. Only for a moment, when he's seen without his helmet in a smoke-filled room, and his glowing eyes are visible, does it become clear to readers who've read HTTE that it's him - but the officer was demonstrating Thrawn's mix of pragmatic ruthlessness and punishment of the incompetent, all the way through.

In Heir to the Empire Sourcebook (West End Games) there's a snippet "A Grand Admiral Returns" not written by Zahn, which has Pellaeon in the Chimaera, summoned to meet with Thrawn - where they begin their association. Presumably it's set right before Tatooine Ghost.

[Sapphire Guard]

Not pointless at all. Just longer than Thrawn has time for with his own flagship. No sense throwing good money after bad when you can save overall by outsourcing.

Yeah, I guess the thing I'm struggling with is where the maths aligns between ' I have enough time to send my flagship to empty space specifically to wait for this one fighter' and 'I don't have enough time to hunt down my helpless adversary'.

His cover story for the encounter is that the Star Destroyer was hunting down...one light freighter, which, even ignoring that it was his personal flagship, seems like an enormous waste of a capital ship's time. You don't send aircraft carriers to chase pirates. It seems immediately suspicious to me.

side: I note that Thrawn has chosen an ordinary ISDII as his flag. Not a Galaxy Gun or a Death Star. Is that simply because none are available, or is it a deliberate choice not to build such things? Certainly lack of resources doesn't seem to have stopped Isaard et al from building ridiculously huge ships.

His secret weapon seems to be already built, it's the Emperor's Treasure Mountain.

IIRC the Empire is about a quarter the size it was at the battle of Endor.

That's territory, not fleet numbers. But everyone keeps talking about how undermanned and understrength the Imperials are.

I always liked the description of the Wookkiee homeworld there. You can see either Zhan really researched his subject, or just went full creative.

Yeah, it's a very nice scene, Leia and the reader has to keep reminding themselves that they're a different culture but that doesn't mean they don't know their tech or are insular just because they live in treehouses.

lso, who besides the Empire knows that the Chimaera is the flagship?

Karrde did, he read the name and went 'oh, that's Thrawn's ship'. Now, he's probably more well connected than average, but even so, it can be done. All that aside, I could easily see this happening if Luke escaped and got to Jomark.

C'Baoth: You're late.

Luke: Sorry. Had a run in with an ISD.

C'Baoth. Oh really? (I must ask Thrawn to discipline the captain) Which one?

Luke: They said they were the Chimaera.

C'Baoth: Betrayal!


CH18: R2 wakes up Luke, who comes out of hibernation to discover a new ship bearing down on him. The X Wing's combat systems are shut down, so he can't make a fight of it even if he had anywhere else to go. The Corellian freighter is moving too fast for its size, but he can't worry about that right now.

He's hailed by the Wild Karrde, and after some negotiation, they agree passage to a nearby system. He comes across in a 'force cylinder' and is met and brought to the captain. His force senses something weird about the place, but he can't give it too much thought. He's introduced to Talon, who greets him by name. They banter a bit, and Luke realises he was expected. Talon references Mara, and Luke senses hate from her. Then he gets tazed from behind.

So, Mara is force sensitive and hates Luke. Okay. Short enough to keep reading.

CH19: He wakes slowly and painfully, aware he'd been out for at least a couple of days. He tries to detoxify his system and fails. Eventually he wakes up again to find Mara across from him with a blaster. His Jedi abilities don't work. She tells him to get up because Karrde wants to see him, and with the alternative option of being shot, agrees. There's a small staring match, and he glimpses pain beneath the rage.

He's ushered into Karrde's greatroom, where he has a chair set up under a tree. He sits down, has a drink, and talk about what they plan to do with him. Karrde would prefer not to have the Empire or the Republic gunning for his head, which makes this an awkward conversation. Luke explains the recent kidnap attempts, and Karrde explains the Ysalamiri. Karrde is still not sure what to do with his new Jedi friend.

Luke gets taken back to his room. Mara still hates him. He wonders what to do.

No major revelations here, Luke is introduced to the Ysalamiri and Mara, who hates him. Not that much to comment on.

[Blackhawk748]

The thing is, using an ISD for that isn't actually weird for the Empire. They built a stupid amount of those and would chase pirates with them

[Peelee]

Yeah, I guess the thing I'm struggling with is where the maths aligns between ' I have enough time to send my flagship to empty space specifically to wait for this one fighter' and 'I don't have enough time to hunt down my helpless adversary'.

His cover story for the encounter is that the Star Destroyer was hunting down...one light freighter, which, even ignoring that it was his personal flagship, seems like an enormous waste of a capital ship's time. You don't send aircraft carriers to chase pirates. It seems immediately suspicious to me.

I got the impression it was "we can wait a couple days or soSkywalker," coupled with "ok we can't afford the days to weeks it may take to find his ship."

Also, sending an aircraft carrier to chase a pirate would be more feasible if we had a couple hundred aircraft carriers, and you know that Captain Kidd is somewhere out there. Still a big waste of resources, but the are some impressive pirate bands out there, with the high-ranking members that implies. Also, I'm totally using backwards-justification here.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Thrawn was probably banking on the Empire's reputation of being incredibly wasteful with resources in order to be there personally. That, and C'Baoth having not been off Wayland since the Republic fell.

[Dragonus45]

An interesting note. Until Fantasy Flight created the Raider class frigate the for filling a gap in the imperial forces for the X-Wing game the Imperials were rather lacking in cannon anti fighter and anti piracy frigates, Lancers are close but were more of a raiding ship lacking in a Tie Fighter complement that would make them unsuitable for pirate hunting. Also the imperial mindset for designing Star Destroyers really focuses on making them highly multi purpose. So something like an older Imperial I class star destroyer doing anti piracy raids protecting an Interdictor isn't as unusual in universe as it sounds.

[Peelee]

An interesting note. Until Fantasy Flight created the Raider class frigate the for filling a gap in the imperial forces for the X-Wing game the Imperials were rather lacking in cannon anti fighter and anti piracy frigates, Lancers are close but were more of a raiding ship lacking in a Tie Fighter complement that would make them unsuitable for pirate hunting. Also the imperial mindset for designing Star Destroyers really focuses on making them highly multi purpose. So something like an older Imperial I class star destroyer doing anti piracy raids protecting an Interdictor isn't as unusual in universe as it sounds.

Aren't almost all the Star Destroyers we see in the films and books set after Mk IIs?

[Blackhawk748]

Aren't almost all the Star Destroyers we see in the films and books set after Mk IIs?

Fairly certain they are. Victories get used for smaller jobs (once someone writes them into existence, which is after this series im fairly sure) alongside Aggressor class ships and IP-V Patrol boats.

[russdm]

I would like to point out, that Thrawn knew the most likely route that Luke would use, and set up the ambush along that route. He also determines the radius based on the damage to Luke's X-Wing, which he then mentions to various people who can check for him. It makes it easier to find him then committing Imperial Resources. Thrawn doesn't have a huge number of ships he can spend, and he doesn't have any Hyperdrive equipped TIE series at this point in time.

Pirate hunting featured in the TIE Fighter game. Which should appear as a movie in some way. Battle 3 featured pirates, along with other battles. It was part of what you did when not fighting rebels or traitor imperial forces. Also a fun game.

[Cikomyr]

Fairly certain they are. Victories get used for smaller jobs (once someone writes them into existence, which is after this series im fairly sure) alongside Aggressor class ships and IP-V Patrol boats.

Wookiiepedia mentions that Victory-class Destroyer is mentioned in the 2nd novel of the current trilogy; Dark Force Rising

Edit: urg, silly me. Too use to use bold instead of italic

[Blackhawk748]

Wookiiepedia mentions that Victory-class Destroyer is mentioned in the 2nd novel of the current trilogy; [i]Dark Force Rising[/b]

Why do i not remember that? I remember them in the X Wing series, so they existed timeline wise, i just dont recall them in the Thrawn series.

[Hatu]

Why do i not remember that? I remember them in the X Wing series, so they existed timeline wise, i just dont recall them in the Thrawn series.

It's been a long time since I first read all the old West End Games supplements, but as I recall the Victory-class SD was invented in the Imperial Sourcebook based on old McQuarrie (or should that be McQuarriee?) artwork. Hold on, this is a job for my nerd archives!

...

Huh. I'm wrong. The Victory and Victory 2 are mentioned in the Imperial Sourcebook, but the Victory was actually mentioned in the basic Sourcebook, too. According to the copyright, that's back in 1987. (The artwork I remembered is labeled as an ISD, even though it clearly does not have the ISD's bridge design.)

I got the impression it was "we can wait a couple days or soSkywalker," coupled with "ok we can't afford the days to weeks it may take to find his ship."

Also, sending an aircraft carrier to chase a pirate would be more feasible if we had a couple hundred aircraft carriers, and you know that Captain Kidd is somewhere out there. Still a big waste of resources, but the are some impressive pirate bands out there, with the high-ranking members that implies. Also, I'm totally using backwards-justification here.

While I agree it's hard to square the effort Thrawn goes to to make the ambush look like a coincidence with his flagship being there, it made a lot less anti-sense back in the day. Prior to the explosion of the EU, Imperial Star Destroyers pretty much WERE the Empire. The Executor was Vader's flagship, and the Death Star(s) were the ultimate symbol of Imperial might, but those were special cases. For everything else, it was just TIE Fighters and Star Destroyers.

So even if Thrawn was having manpower shortages, the audience wouldn't really think twice about having an ISD loitering about; what else would there be? Even an RPG fan like me spent more time thinking it was cool to see an Interdictor in action than wondering why it had such heavy escort.

-H

[hamishspence]

It's been a long time since I first read all the old West End Games supplements, but as I recall the Victory-class SD was invented in the Imperial Sourcebook based on old McQuarrie (or should that be McQuarriee?) artwork. Hold on, this is a job for my nerd archives!

...

Huh. I'm wrong. The Victory and Victory 2 are mentioned in the Imperial Sourcebook, but the Victory was actually mentioned in the basic Sourcebook, too. According to the copyright, that's back in 1987. (The artwork I remembered is labeled as an ISD, even though it clearly does not have the ISD's bridge design.)


-H

The Victory goes back even further, to the Han Solo Adventures series (Han Solo' Revenge - 1979) where the narration describes the ship closing in on them:

She was an Espo destroyer of the old Victory class, close to a kilometre long, an armoured space-going fortress.


It is also one of the EU ships that make it into the newcanon - being mentioned in the Tarkin novel.

[Dragonus45]

Aren't almost all the Star Destroyers we see in the films and books set after Mk IIs?

I am almost certain the Chimera is a Mk 1, but I'm at work and can't immediately check. EDIT Just checked and your right, I'm confusing it with the new continuity where it's a class 1.

While I agree it's hard to square the effort Thrawn goes to to make the ambush look like a coincidence with his flagship being there, it made a lot less anti-sense back in the day. Prior to the explosion of the EU, Imperial Star Destroyers pretty much WERE the Empire. The Executor was Vader's flagship, and the Death Star(s) were the ultimate symbol of Imperial might, but those were special cases. For everything else, it was just TIE Fighters and Star Destroyers

-H

Pretty much this, The Empire pretty much had a literal galaxy's worth of material and resources and the main job of its navy was suppressing conflict between planets, policing smugglers and pirates, and other general policing actions since the rebellion lacked anything like a strong or traditional navy. So Star Destroyers are quite literally jack of all trade ships you would send anywhere for anything. Not having it be the flagship itself is a bit much but among his flaws is trouble delegating.

[pendell]

I am almost certain the Chimera is a Mk 1, but I'm at work and can't immediately check. EDIT Just checked and your right, I'm confusing it with the new continuity where it's a class 1.



Pretty much this, The Empire pretty much had a literal galaxy's worth of material and resources and the main job of its navy was suppressing conflict between planets, policing smugglers and pirates, and other general policing actions since the rebellion lacked anything like a strong or traditional navy. So Star Destroyers are quite literally jack of all trade ships you would send anywhere for anything. Not having it be the flagship itself is a bit much but among his flaws is trouble delegating.

Which brings up the question seen in another thread: "Can a good person work for an evil organization?"

In the SW universe, this is absolutely true. When you play through TIE Fighter, for example, you'll only see the Empire doing things any government would do (peacekeeping , piracy suppression) and are never asked, directly, to commit a war crime. Seen from the perspective of a TIE pilot, who sees the Rebels primarily fomenting discord (and occasionally using suicidal terrorist tactics) it's quite easy to believe you're on the side of the angels. Even your secret order control applauds you for your valiant service "in the battle of good against evil".

It's not at all easy to see just how vile the Empire is under the surface -- and when something truly awful does happen, like Alderaan, it's very easy for cognitive dissonance to blame Tarkin and not the Emperor. And of course Imperial propaganda is going to do all it can to depict Imperial soldiers as courageous heroes -- literally the white hats -- and Rebels as criminals and terrorists.

This is not at all to say that the Empire is good while the rebellion is evil; it's not. It's just a lot harder to tell the difference when you're actually living in the universe and don't have an opening crawl to tell you who the heroes and the villains are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cikomyr]

Wookiiepedia mentions that Victory-class Destroyer is mentioned in the 2nd novel of the current trilogy; Dark Force Rising

Edit: urg, silly me. Too use to use bold instead of italic

Pelee, you are slipping

[hamishspence]

Aren't almost all the Star Destroyers we see in the films and books set after Mk IIs?

There's plenty of Imperial Mark Is in TESB alongside the Mark IIs.

Unfortunately, they use the Mark I and Mark II models both, to represent the same ship, in the ion cannon shot.

Thus, it's hard to tell for sure if particular ships are intended to be Mark Is, or if they were just reusing the Mark I prop for long shots.

[Peelee]

Pelee, you are slipping

Nah, I don't worry about intentional misspellings (aside from the one or two that sometimes follow a correction as a joke).

[hamishspence]

Prior to the explosion of the EU, Imperial Star Destroyers pretty much WERE the Empire. The Executor was Vader's flagship, and the Death Star(s) were the ultimate symbol of Imperial might, but those were special cases. For everything else, it was just TIE Fighters and Star Destroyers.

In one of the very oldest EU sources - Star Wars Poster Monthly, before TESB came out, a Star Destroyer was described as "can outgun all other vessels except Death Star".



STAR WARS: OFFICIAL POSTER MONTHLY #6
Published March 1978 by Galaxy Publications.


http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/...a/post6-03.jpg

While TESB modified that somewhat, and the EU gave us other command ships in different classes, the basic principle, that the ISD was "the backbone of the fleet" never varied. Battlecruisers and dreadnoughts were clarified as being rare.

http://jasonfry.tumblr.com/post/2303...-endnotes-pt-7

* There are around 25,000 ISDs, and they are the foundation of the Imperial starfleet. Whether or not you agree this is logical, lots of canon sources support it.

* There are bigger warships (battlecruisers and dreadnoughts), but relatively few of them – the Empire wound up with a lot of ISDs and a handful of “trophy” ships. Classes are relatively empty above Star Destroyer.

[Cikomyr]

Nah, I don't worry about intentional misspellings (aside from the one or two that sometimes follow a correction as a joke).

Please assume that all future instances of me mispelling Wookie is intentional then

[Peelee]

Please assume that all future instances of me mispelling Wookie is intentional then

Will do!

Also, misspelling. 2 S's.

[Cikomyr]

Will do!

Also, misspelling. 2 S's.

...

I hat you so much... :-P

[pendell]

My understanding is that "Star Destroyer" in SW doesn't mean a utility escort, as it means in our world. It means a vessel capable of inflicting destruction on an inhabited system. Hence the term STAR destroyer as opposed to just "destroyer" .

I can't actually find a canon source for that; in A New Hope they were apparently referred to as "cruisers". The SD designation didn't appear until Empire Strikes Back.

Who knows why the name was chosen, but the New Republic versions (in the EU) were called Star Defenders rather than Star Destroyers, presumably because the Republic felt happier about having them with a nice shiny new name slapped on it to disguise the fact that it is an engine of mass death and destruction.

At any rate, if one arrives at kashyk the Wiesookks will be in a lot of trouble.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Aotrs Commander]

My understanding is that "Star Destroyer" in SW doesn't mean a utility escort, as it means in our world. It means a vessel capable of inflicting destruction on an inhabited system. Hence the term STAR destroyer as opposed to just "destroyer" .

As an adjunct to this, it is worth noting that the etymology of "Destroyer" comes from "torpedo boat Destroyer" i.e. a vessel made to destroy torpedo boats. The word has become associated so much with it being its own thing in the entire century since it was shortened to "destroyer" that you would think it's child-logic its called "destroyer" because its destroys things. To the point where I, as a child, called a class of vessel designed to hunt fighters (basically a bigger, more well armed smallcraft) a "fighter destroyer" but in later years just assumed that was child-logic and took to calling stuff like that "fightercruisers." Fast forward to a few years ago, when actually (for an alien race) looking up the origins of naval terminology (as said aliens would use slightly different terms) and found out that, no, I had been basically right in the first place. (And in fact, was probably always right to question why a "guided missile destroyer" or "helicopter destroyer" is the old game Sea Strike carried, but not destroy, guided missiles and helicopters respectively...)

Further, it perhaps also pertient to note that "destroyer" is now the nearly unilateral large ship classification in modern navies, with really on the US and Russia having larger classes.

[Blackhawk748]

My understanding is that "Star Destroyer" in SW doesn't mean a utility escort, as it means in our world. It means a vessel capable of inflicting destruction on an inhabited system. Hence the term STAR destroyer as opposed to just "destroyer" .

I can't actually find a canon source for that; in A New Hope they were apparently referred to as "cruisers". The SD designation didn't appear until Empire Strikes Back.

Who knows why the name was chosen, but the New Republic versions (in the EU) were called Star Defenders rather than Star Destroyers, presumably because the Republic felt happier about having them with a nice shiny new name slapped on it to disguise the fact that it is an engine of mass death and destruction.

At any rate, if one arrives at kashyk the Wiesookks will be in a lot of trouble.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Also those Mon Cal ships are really, really durable. Their shield generators are internal so they're basically impossible to take out. Great ships all around.

Im trying to remember what the Empire calls glassing a planet, its got some sort of numerical designation, like "86ing a world". Its not actually that but thats kinda how you say it. It bugs me cuz i cant remember what i read it in, but it was in reference to a SSD being able to do it alone.

[Peelee]

Also those Mon Cal ships are really, really durable. Their shield generators are internal so they're basically impossible to take out. Great ships all around.

IIRC, in the Impstar Deuces, the bubble on the bottom was originally the shield generator, with the two domes on each side of the bridge superstructure being communication towers. After that scene in RotJ, though, where it was really easy to think the towers were the shield generators, it kind of just shifted until the belief was made correct.

[Mando Knight]

Im trying to remember what the Empire calls glassing a planet, its got some sort of numerical designation, like "86ing a world". Its not actually that but thats kinda how you say it. It bugs me cuz i cant remember what i read it in, but it was in reference to a SSD being able to do it alone.

Base Delta Zero. Three ISDs can carry it out within hours, and one SSD has a lot more firepower than three ISDs (though it can't split up to focus fire on three areas of interest at once).

[Cikomyr]

As an adjunct to this, it is worth noting that the etymology of "Destroyer" comes from "torpedo boat Destroyer" i.e. a vessel made to destroy torpedo boats. The word has become associated so much with it being its own thing in the entire century since it was shortened to "destroyer" that you would think it's child-logic its called "destroyer" because its destroys things. To the point where I, as a child, called a class of vessel designed to hunt fighters (basically a bigger, more well armed smallcraft) a "fighter destroyer" but in later years just assumed that was child-logic and took to calling stuff like that "fightercruisers." Fast forward to a few years ago, when actually (for an alien race) looking up the origins of naval terminology (as said aliens would use slightly different terms) and found out that, no, I had been basically right in the first place. (And in fact, was probably always right to question why a "guided missile destroyer" or "helicopter destroyer" is the old game Sea Strike carried, but not destroy, guided missiles and helicopters respectively...)

Further, it perhaps also pertient to note that "destroyer" is now the nearly unilateral large ship classification in modern navies, with really on the US and Russia having larger classes.

Fun fact: the same way you talk about "destroyer", initially a Cruiser was just a very fast ship.

[hamishspence]

Base Delta Zero. Three ISDs can carry it out within hours, and one SSD has a lot more firepower than three ISDs (though it can't split up to focus fire on three areas of interest at once).

In Legends, maybe (the main reason for three being used was to cover the planet from all sides and intercept any attempts at escape.)

Newcanon has used the term too, in the Rebels TV series - in season one, right before they attempt to rescue Luminara from jail (and meet the Grand Inquisitor for the first time) a broadcaster says on the HoloNet "Another planet successfully liberated using the Base Delta Zero initiative" with Sabine: My Rebel Sketchbook clarifying that in fact this means population extermination:

"That 'Base Delta Zero' initiative the Empire keeps talking about? The new 'key to planetary liberation'? Don't believe it. It's a military code phrase, and it means TOTAL EXTERMINATION OF A TARGET POPULATION. It's completely loathsome."


The newcanon seems to be portraying "total wipeout bombardments" as something that involves bombing, not solely turbolaser shots from orbit - with Aftermath: Life Debt, having several Star Destroyers descend into the atmosphere of Kashyyyk to drop bombs, when the governor orders complete destruction.

Before they can fully accomplish their goal though, the Rebel reinforcements arrive.

[Peelee]

The newcanon seems to be portraying "total wipeout bombardments" as something that involves bombing, not solely turbolaser shots from orbit - with Aftermath: Life Debt, having several Star Destroyers descend into the atmosphere of Kashyyyk to drop bombs, when the governor orders complete destruction.

Before they can fully accomplish their goal though, the Rebel reinforcements arrive.

Fun fact: This doesn't happen before 300 pages in, at least.