Reading Heir to the Empire

[hamishspence]

Fun fact: This doesn't happen before 300 pages in, at least.

True - pages 365-366 (paperback edition).

[Blackhawk748]

Base Delta Zero. Three ISDs can carry it out within hours, and one SSD has a lot more firepower than three ISDs (though it can't split up to focus fire on three areas of interest at once).

Thank you. I think that got mentioned in the X Wing series but im not sure.

[hamishspence]

Thank you. I think that got mentioned in the X Wing series but im not sure.

Not by that exact name - though planetary bombardments were mentioned - the novel (as opposed to roleplaying game book) that first used the term was The Hutt Gambit - book 2 in the Han Solo trilogy by A C. Crispin (as opposed to Brian Daley's Han Solo Adventures series which was a bit different).

Han tensed, but made himself stay calm. He could tell Greelanx was really tempted. "Sir, what are your orders?" he asked. "Perhaps we can think of something that will benefit us both, and yet leave you free of any charge of wrongdoing."
Greelanx laughed bitterly, a short, bitten-off laugh.
"Hardly, young man. My orders are to enter the Hutt system, execute order Base Delta Zero upon the Smuggler's Moon, Nar Shaddaa, and then blockade Nal Hutta and Nar Hekka until the Hutts agree to allow full customs inspections and a complete military presence on their worlds. The Moff doesn't want to cripple the Hutts too badly, but he wants Nar Shaddaa reduced to rubble."
Han swallowed, his mouth dry. Base Delta Zero was an order that called for the decimation of a world - all life, all vessels, all systems - even droids were to be captured or destroyed. His worse nightmare come true.

The worst problem, as far as Fel was concerned, was implementing order Base Delta Zero on Nar Shaddaa.
Fel knew that last wasn't Greelanx's fault. The Sector Moff had issued that order. But in the admiral's place, Fel would have at least tried to get Sam Shild to modify that instruction. The Emperor's directive had been to shut down the smuggling operations out of Nar Shaddaa and other smuggler nests, especially the gunrunners. The directive hadn't included anything about razing the entire moon. Fel had had considerable combat experience, and he knew that sentients of most species would fight like cornered Corellian vrelts when it came to protecting their homes and families.
There were millions of sentients on Nar Shaddaa, many of whom were only peripherally involved with the smuggling business. Elderly sentients, children . . . Soontir Fel grimaced.
This would be his first Imperial-ordered massacre. He'd been lucky to avoid such an order for this long, the way things were going.
Fel would carry out his orders, but he wasn't happy about them. He knew images of the flaming buildings would haunt him, as he gave each order to fire. And afterward . . . they'd have to send down shuttles and ground troops to mop up, and he, Fel, being a conscientious commander, would have to oversee that operation.
Visions of smoking rubble strewn with blackened corpses filled his mind, and Fel took a deep breath.

[Cikomyr]

Base Delta Zero. Three ISDs can carry it out within hours, and one SSD has a lot more firepower than three ISDs (though it can't split up to focus fire on three areas of interest at once).

Which is silly, because you need four ships to cover all angles in 3d

[Peelee]

True - pages 365-366 (paperback edition).

Ha! I now have something to look forward to.

Not a joke, bytheway. I hit page 300 this morning. Don't care about the spoiler though, it was actually more enjoyable than the rest of the book so far.

[hamishspence]

Which is silly, because you need four ships to cover all angles in 3d

If they are far enough out (say, geostationary orbit), and have good enough weapon ranges, all three ships can shoot down anything coming up off the north or south pole.

Given that the Battle of Nar Shaddaa had 3 Dreadnoughts instead of Star Destroyers as the bombardment ships (and 4 bulk cruisers to lend support, and light cruisers to escort and protect the heavyweights) it does appear that 3 is the key number.

Admittedly the admiral got a message at the last minute, that he was under orders not to prosecute the battle properly, but to retreat at the first serious sign of resistance - but it makes sense that the basic formation be capable of the task assigned.

[Sapphire Guard]

The thing is, using an ISD for that isn't actually weird for the Empire. They built a stupid amount of those and would chase pirates with them

This isn't the Empire, it's a broken shard of the Empire, and much of the plot of the book is built around the idea that they're critically undermanned and under resourced. I'm finding it very hard to reconcile the idea that they can spare the flagship of the fleet for this specific ambush, but not any lesser ships to continue to hunt their crippled adversary.

the are some impressive pirate bands out there, with the high-ranking members that implies.

Sure, you have people like Jabba that control worlds and justify ISDs, but one small ship? Sorry, I know I'm harping on about this.

CH20: "Leia" is talking to Winter back on Coruscant, who isn't truly buying it but playing along. They're trying to talk in code, and Han picks up that Akbar is having trouble with internal Rebellion matters. He also enquires about the Bpfasshi recovery, and finds out that Akbar has repurposed capital ships as cargo ships.

Oh dear. Nothing wrong with that in principle, but we know Thrawn's about to raid, so that may be an unfortunate choice.

They finish the communication, and Han reveals that contrary to what he's just said to Winter, he plans to return to Coruscant as soon as possible:reading between the lines, Fey'lya is making a power play, and Leia needs to be there to keep him in check, making her move to Kashyyyk shortlived. But first, one last play for making contact with Karrde.

They're on a planet that was formerly a wretched hive of scum and villainy, but has recently been hit hard by law and order. Imperial? They see a security force raid in progress before hitting their rendezvous point, which is of course a bar.

"Good day, gentles" says the holographic bartender. Nice touch, polite but doesn't assume customers are human.

Han spots their contact at a gambling table, and they reminisce a bit. Han concludes that the kidnap attempts are after the twins, which is at least half right. Then he notices three Planetary Security Officers. Making contact is risky as is, but Han decides to go gamble.

He barges in on the game impolitely, and he and the contact badmouth each other to the annoyance of the other players, but they're about to start when they're interrupted by a huge religious man who takes exception to cheating at cards. The security get dragged in, and Korve slips out in the commotion.

Han returns to the Falcon to find Torve and Lando waiting, and their contact is most grateful to be warned. He's actually running food to natives that the government is oppressing for no apparent reason. After some more cute banter, they get down to business, what do they want from Talon Karrde.

Han wants to talk direct, but Torve isn't on board with letting people in on the whole secret base deal. Unfortunately, he's down one ship, courtesy of Planetary security, so he gets blackmailed into taking them along. I get the feeling this won't go down well with the boss.

Nice chapter, clever smugglers being clever smugglers, setup for the impending raid on the shipyards and the meet with Karrde, plus whatever's about to happen on Kashyyyk. And unspectacular chapter that quietly does a lot of work.

with Aftermath: Life Debt, having several Star Destroyers descend into the atmosphere of Kashyyyk to drop bombs, when the governor orders complete destruction.

I'd read that, but forgotten it. Kashyyyk always has things rough, doesn't it?

[Blackhawk748]

This isn't the Empire, it's a broken shard of the Empire, and much of the plot of the book is built around the idea that they're critically undermanned and under resourced. I'm finding it very hard to reconcile the idea that they can spare the flagship of the fleet for this specific ambush, but not any lesser ships to continue to hunt their crippled adversary.

Its a valid enough complaint, but the Chimera isnt actually any fancier than any other SD in Thrawn's fleet, its just that Thrawn is there, and he does like personally over seeing stuff. Really its just a way to have Thrawn square off against Luke.

[hamishspence]

Nice chapter, clever smugglers being clever smugglers, setup for the impending raid on the shipyards and the meet with Karrde, plus whatever's about to happen on Kashyyyk. And unspectacular chapter that quietly does a lot of work.

And my favourite moment in this scene - the reveal that the big religious guy is Torve's contact, and that it was his skifter (cheat card) that had ended up in Han's hand.

Kashyyyk always has things rough, doesn't it?

In both Legends and newcanon, in many eras.

[Mando Knight]

In both Legends and newcanon, in many eras.

It's practically in the dark-sider's handbook: "If you run out of other ideas, attack the Wookiees."

[hamishspence]

Its a valid enough complaint, but the Chimera isnt actually any fancier than any other SD in Thrawn's fleet, its just that Thrawn is there, and he does like personally over seeing stuff.

In the comics at least, the bridge window section was larger:

Spoiler

Show

And it was a communications ship at Endor - 3rd in line after the Executor and the battlecruiser Pride of Tarlandia, as command & communications ships. Hence Pellaeon being able to issue orders from it to the rest of the fleet to retreat, after those two were destroyed.

[Blackhawk748]

In the comics at least, the bridge window section was larger:

Spoiler

Show

And it was a communications ship at Endor - 3rd in line after the Executor and the battlecruiser Pride of Tarlandia, as command & communications ships. Hence Pellaeon being able to issue orders from it to the rest of the fleet to retreat, after those two were destroyed.

I should re-phrase: Its no different than any other ship of its type. If its a Communications SD (which i forgot it was) than its a relatively normal version of that ship. Its not like Vadrers TIE or the Executor.

[Hatu]

I should re-phrase: Its no different than any other ship of its type. If its a Communications SD (which i forgot it was) than its a relatively normal version of that ship. Its not like Vadrers TIE or the Executor.

Agreed, and the low-key nature of his flagship is a nice hint at the personality of Thrawn.

That said, the idea that the Republic can't even identify the FLAGSHIP of the opposing force is rather risible. This isn't a one-time covert op, it's the command nexus of the surviving Imperial Navy. If the former rebels can't even figure that out, you really have to wonder if they know the Empire isn't just a front for some new Hutt cartel.

-H

[Theodoriph]

A freighter, the Wild Karrde (heh, just noticed the pun, that was actually funny because it took a reread before I caught it.) is watching the battle from a distance.

Lol. I've read that series so many times over the last 18 years or so and I never noticed the Wild Karrde pun until your post.

From someone who began reading the EU in the 90s, it wasn't surprising to me at least, that Thrawn would bring a Star Destroyer to the capture Luke op. Zahn's first book came out in 1991 and was essentially the beginning of the EU. At that point in time, Star Destroyers were the iconic imperial ship and were the main vessels used by the empire....for everything. The Battle of Endor for instance, featured only Star Destroyers and the SSD (with a couple of other ships being added by later novels). I actually don't remember seeing an Imperial Capital Ship other than Star Destroyers (and the SSD) in movies IV-VI. They used that **** for everything. As the Empire was always presented as a monolithic evil, their reliance on a singular threatening ship made sense storywise, whereas the Alliance's reliance on their hodgepodge of Corvettes, Frigates, and Cruisers likewise made sense storywise.

Basically Empire = Star Destroyer. That didn't begin to change until later and since I stopped following the EU once they killed Chewbacca (Chewie was always the best), I'm not sure if it ever stopped being true. Sure, Zahn could have introduced a new ship (from the game or wherever) for the sole purpose of having it at that ambush, but then he'd have to explain its capabilities and it wouldn't have the same impact on the readers as a Star Destroyer, a ship whose nature and threat readers who have seen the movies instinctively understand.

[DataNinja]

Not by that exact name - though planetary bombardments were mentioned - the novel (as opposed to roleplaying game book) that first used the term was The Hutt Gambit - book 2 in the Han Solo trilogy by A C. Crispin (as opposed to Brian Daley's Han Solo Adventures series which was a bit different).

Ah, that's where I remember it from. I knew I'd heard the terminology, but I couldn't for the life of me remember what book it would've been from.

[russdm]

Can't imagine the type of person who would willingly subject themselves to the Aftermath novels. Comparing them to food: The Aftermath Novels are dog pissed on brownies made half of dirt, while the Zahn novels are made of a fine quality chocolate cake, that is worth every bite. The books have low ratings on Amazon.

I think the Star Destroyer are meant to be iconic and associated with the Empire, as a symbol of it, and representation of how the Empire deals with threats. Interestingly in the book, the Star Wars, which is a comic version among the first scripts by George Lucas, Star Destroyers are two man fighter crafts. In fact, that comic is worth reading, mostly for some of the funny moments, like Annikan Starkiller apparently using the Force to hit on chicks in a creepy fashion in the background. Have to see it to believe it.

I have always liked the empire, with its legions of stormtroopers, its cool spaceships, and those amazing TIE Fighters. It just looks all cool, and the Empire is simply better at making things work, keeping the peace. Think it would be pretty cool to have a TIE Fighter to fly, or a blaster. Command a Star Destroyer. Help bring order to the masses.

[Friv]

I have always liked the empire, with its legions of stormtroopers, its cool spaceships, and those amazing TIE Fighters. It just looks all cool, and the Empire is simply better at making things work, keeping the peace. Think it would be pretty cool to have a TIE Fighter to fly, or a blaster. Command a Star Destroyer. Help bring order to the masses.

Russ, I can't argue with you about the aesthetics - the Empire looks cool - but the idea that the Empire is better at making anything work is just so ludicrous that I'm having a hard time telling if you're serious here. Give me a sign.

[russdm]

Russ, I can't argue with you about the aesthetics - the Empire looks cool - but the idea that the Empire is better at making anything work is just so ludicrous that I'm having a hard time telling if you're serious here. Give me a sign.

Hey, the Core Worlds were pretty peaceful; the rest of many places were terrible yes, but from an average Imperial Loyalist things were good.

The other half of the problem is that we don't really see the peace keeping effectiveness of the New Republic in any real times in the novels. So, it makes it really look like the Empire was better at it.

Think of it like the faulty argument made by Gill in Patterns of Force episode of Star Trek The Original Series. The historian guy actually decided to model the government system after Nazi Germany opposed to something like Great Britain or the Soviets, or Imperial Japan/Imperial Germany. Why the Nazis? Because of some BS about efficiency, which Gill would have remembered all of the horribleness.

(The real world reason was the sheer number of costumes available, so they got a deal to use them, I think)

Yes, I like both Star Trek and Star Wars. Yes, I am a heretic.

[hamishspence]

Hey, the Core Worlds were pretty peaceful

Galen Erso: You're confusing peace with terror.
Orson Krennic: Well, you have to start somewhere.

[Aotrs Commander]

The other half of the problem is that we don't really see the peace keeping effectiveness of the New Republic in any real times in the novels. So, it makes it really look like the Empire was better at it.

Russ, I can't argue with you about the aesthetics - the Empire looks cool - but the idea that the Empire is better at making anything work is just so ludicrous that I'm having a hard time telling if you're serious here. Give me a sign.

Actually, in some of the later, pre NJO books, it explictly states (from Wedge's perspective) that basically the moment the Empire stopped (harshly) enforcing the peace, all the little petty brushfire wars between this planet/race and that planet/race picked right back up where they left off. So yes, for all the Empire was Evil, it did do some things better than the New Republic (and the Old Republic befor it).



Though, if I may be forgiven for taking a cheap shot at the nucanon, it appears even the EU NR was doing a better job than in the nucanon one, who completely failed to stop basically a splinter faction of the Empire making something bigger and more powerful than the Death Star 2 (more or less in secret) and were so bad at it, in fact, Leia had to go become a Rebel Resistance leader with her own personal army. (In fact, reading the wookiepeida entry, wow, their level of ineptitude beggars belief. They want to move the capital on a regular basis? For a power as large as that? That... Just the infrastructure and book-keeping issues alone... There are not enough skullpalms and skulldesks in the world.)

(And on the meta-level, this was why the decision to basically crowbar everything back into the REALLY old and tiresome "underdog verses The Man" cliché narrative to ape the OT was a really, really dumb one. But let's not let me sidetrack the thread again, since I'm a little bit too good at that. Suffice it to say of the problems I have with the new movies (well, movie, since I did not go to see Rogue One and will probably only go to see the new one because Mum wants to), that is by far the biggest one.)

[hamishspence]

Suffice it to say of the problems I have with the new movies (well, movie, since I did not go to see Rogue One and will probably only go to see the new one because Mum wants to), that is by far the biggest one.)

I thought Rogue One avoided most of the problems with TFA.

And did a good job of making Imperials look "ANH-ish" rather than "TESB-ish"- the star destroyer bridges and guns match up better to the ANH destroyers than the TESB ones, and the rank badges (excepting Krennic's and Tarkin's) are single-row rather than double-row.

They want to move the capital on a regular basis? For a power as large as that? That... Just the infrastructure and book-keeping issues alone...

The Empire had to cope with moving its capital in the Legendsverse. I think they tended to prefer sector capitals - since those already are set up to govern large areas of space - albeit sectors rather than the whole Empire.

Sartinayan, the planet that "Bastion" (the Imperial capital in the Zahn Hand of Thrawn books) is moved to at some point before the book starts, is a sector capital. Presumably the same applies to the New Republic capitals in the newcanon - Chandrila, Hosnian Prime, and possibly other worlds in between Aftermath and Bloodline.

[Peelee]

wookiepeida

Wookieepedia. 2 E's.

The Empire had to cope with moving its capital in the Legendsverse. I think they tended to prefer sector capitals - since those already are set up to govern large areas of space - albeit sectors rather than the whole Empire.

In fairness, the imperials has to move the capital due to losing ground. The New Republic moves it to... move it?

[hamishspence]

In fairness, the imperials has to move the capital due to losing ground. The New Republic moves it to... move it?

I got the impression that it was to communicate equality - that the capital is not privileged anymore.

[Peelee]

I got the impression that it was to communicate equality - that the capital is not privileged anymore.

It also communicates wastefulness, though.

Conversely, they could have made it a space station in an enjoy system or deep space. Though this has significant disadvantages, to say the least. But so does moving constantly.

[hamishspence]

It also communicates wastefulness, though.

Conversely, they could have made it a space station in an enjoy system or deep space. Though this has significant disadvantages, to say the least. But so does moving constantly.

It's not every year, at least - Hosnian Prime had become the capital in 28 ABY, and was still the capital in 34 ABY before it was destroyed.

At least part of the reason, was to distance itself from the Empire's Core-centric policies:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galac...(New_Republic)

Though the Republic was initially based on Chandrila, the Republic chose to begin rotating its capital to different member worlds through a process of election. Choosing to rotate the capital and choosing to not place the Senate on Coruscant, the former seat of power of the Galactic Republic and the Galactic Empire, helped convince star systems that were reluctant to join the Republic that it would not repeat the mistakes of its predecessors, and that the Republic would not be a Core-centric government.

That said, given that Chandrila and Hosnian Prime were both Core Worlds, this move away from Core-centrism may be more theoretical than actual.

[Peelee]

It's not every year, at least - Hosnian Prime had become the capital in 28 ABY, and was still the capital in 34 ABY before it was destroyed.

At least part of the reason, was to distance itself from the Empire's Core-centric policies:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galac...(New_Republic)

Though the Republic was initially based on Chandrila, the Republic chose to begin rotating its capital to different member worlds through a process of election. Choosing to rotate the capital and choosing to not place the Senate on Coruscant, the former seat of power of the Galactic Republic and the Galactic Empire, helped convince star systems that were reluctant to join the Republic that it would not repeat the mistakes of its predecessors, and that the Republic would not be a Core-centric government.

That said, given that Chandrila and Hosnian Prime were both Core Worlds, this move away from Core-centrism may be more theoretical than actual.

I understand the basic idea behind it, but we have a not-bad real world analog; the Olympics go from city to city every four years, and every city they go to almost always ends up losing money due to it. It's only variable for the prestige. An entire galactic government, which would likely require the infrastructure to handle it, only to be vacated every 10 years or so would certainly put some strain on the host planets.

[Keltest]

I understand the basic idea behind it, but we have a not-bad real world analog; the Olympics go from city to city every four years, and every city they go to almost always ends up losing money due to it. It's only variable for the prestige. An entire galactic government, which would likely require the infrastructure to handle it, only to be vacated every 10 years or so would certainly put some strain on the host planets.

Its either a terrible idea or brilliant. If its expensive to host, youre going to be rotating around the same few planets who can actually afford to host the galactic government, who will probably be core worlds. But if youre an outer rim world, and you have enough in the bank to host it for a term, you can push your case and (theoretically) have your time in the sun before you go back and collapse on your couch, muttering about your poor wallet.

[Peelee]

Its either a terrible idea or brilliant. If its expensive to host, youre going to be rotating around the same few planets who can actually afford to host the galactic government, who will probably be core worlds. But if youre an outer rim world, and you have enough in the bank to host it for a term, you can push your case and (theoretically) have your time in the sun before you go back and collapse on your couch, muttering about your poor wallet.

Even in the richer core worlds, they would need to clear out huge amounts of space. Living and work spaces for all the senators and their staff, all the support staff, all the people who would be constantly relocating instead of being locals that work there for that planets' hosting time. That's a huge amount of space that is likely either already being used for other stuff, or is not being used and will continue to not be used after they move, making it either an eyesore or a worthless expenditure.

You're right, it's either a terrible idea or a brilliant idea. I'm just unconvinced of its brilliance, and think it's a ridiculous implementation that at best exhibits symbolism over practicality and makes the NR look silly.

[Keltest]

Even in the richer core worlds, they would need to clear out huge amounts of space. Living and work spaces for all the senators and their staff, all the support staff, all the people who would be constantly relocating instead of being locals that work there for that planets' hosting time. That's a huge amount of space that is likely either already being used for other stuff, or is not being used and will continue to not be used after they move, making it either an eyesore or a worthless expenditure.

You're right, it's either a terrible idea or a brilliant idea. I'm just unconvinced of its brilliance, and think it's a ridiculous implementation that at best exhibits symbolism over practicality and makes the NR look silly.

Wasn't that sort of the point? Theyre emulating an ineffectual government that was so corrupt and ineffective that corporations had more power than entire planets.

[Aotrs Commander]

Wookieepedia. 2 E's.

*skuldlesk*

Dangit, and I even thought "I'd better make sure I spell it right, after all the discussion." And then still missed it. I do apologise.

In fairness, the imperials has to move the capital due to losing ground. The New Republic moves it to... move it?

It also communicates wastefulness, though.

Conversely, they could have made it a space station in an enjoy system or deep space. Though this has significant disadvantages, to say the least. But so does moving constantly.

Exactly.