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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Aren't they, uh, kinda bad, being only str 6 and armourbane not being a thing anymore? Wounding on 5's against vehicles seems not good for a 25 point gun. Or does the massive AP value and decent damage make it less bad?
    In lower points, you don't really have a choice. AP and decent damage is a thing. Mostly because against Marines you're more likely than not, to be facing things like Aggressors and Centurions, and maybe at the outside, you're going to deal with Hammernators because players are starting to get real sick of your **** The Yncarne. Not even mentioning all the new kids running Primaris Marines with 2 Wounds each. While Heat Lances aren't good, per se, they're the best you've got, and if you're running pure Drukhari like a scrub hobbyist, then you don't really have a choice. If you're playing Aeldari like a real man, then Reavers get replaced by Shining Spears and Scourges get replaced by Warp Spiders...Or, put another way...Pretty much everything Drukhari have can be replaced by a Craftworld counterpart. But we're not going down that road - because we aren't that kind of forum.
    (Cheesegear never takes 'the casual meta' into account. Never. Nope. Not even when talking about Drukhari when he was specifically pointing out differences between the competitive meta and the Marine/casual meta. Cheesegear only plays with and against competitive tournament lists, always.)

    EDIT: What I meant was, Heat Lances aren't for killing Vehicles. They're for killing heavy infantry with T<6. That said, so does Poison. But Heat Lances have the AP and Damage to matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Dark Eldar anti-tank is Lances or nothing right now, but at least the Lances are pretty good.
    ...Which is why you're playing 8th Ed. Get yourself some Allies. I understand that certain people don't want to buy three different books to play their army. It gets pretty tiresome. But, Drukhari are currently bottom tier and need all the help they can get. That's what has made the Indecies so good for the game, particularly Xenos I, particularly for Harlequins and Drukhari (not so much for Craftworlders, they don't need help). Everything you need to make your army work, is in one book. You don't need to buy more books. You have no excuse not to use the models for the rules that you've been given... Unless you're a scrub hobbyist, and the only reason you don't use rules is self-imposed, arbitrary restrictions that nobody gave you.

    My point is, if you have the Index, you have the rules for everything non-Drukhari, too. Why not use all the tools you've been given?
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Funny thing, the DE guy got paired with the 2x Whirlwind guy. Wyches dissapeared turn 1, alongside the Kabalites; all because the guy insisted on using his razorwing he just got second-hand instead of a transport xD

    then for 5 turns the Succubus and Haemonculus tried to get into assault with one rhino, while the jetfighter tried to not fly itself out of the map. One whirlwind died to volume of fire from the ship, and then the guy decided he had been 'playing nice' long enough, deep striked his assault marines to wipe the remaining HQs and the jetfighter died to whirlwind fire. Heh.

    So, it really hammered the need for transports into the new guy. So thats something, right?

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Heres my Sisters list.

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    HQ
    Celestine w/ 2 Geminae-250
    Cannoness-45
    Cannoness w/ Combi Plas-60

    Troops
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior and 2 Storm Bolters-98
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior and 2 Storm Bolters-98
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90

    Elite
    Imigafier-40
    Imigafier-40
    Imigafier-40
    Imigafier-40

    Fast Attack
    4 Dominions w/ Superior, Combi Flamer and 4 Flamers-97
    4 Dominions w/ Superior, Combi Melta and 4 Meltas-137


    Dedicated Transports
    Immolater w/ Twin Heavy Bolters-85
    Immolater w/ Twin Heavy Bolters-85

    Heavy Support
    Exorcist-160
    Exorcist-160
    4 Retributors w/Superior, Combi Plasma, and 4 Heavy Bolters-100
    4 Retributors w/Superior, Combi Plasma, and 4 Heavy Bolters-100

    Total:1995


    Originally i had a 2nd Melta squad with an Immolater and a 3rd Exorcist, but that was over 2k, so i had to cut them. Even after that i have a lot of firepower. One Cannoness is gonna chill with the Stormbolter ladies and the other with the Rets, Celestine will do Celestine things and the Imagifiers will be daisy chained throughout the army.

    I have 9 CPs to pretty much just use on rerolls, probably on the Exorcists.
    You need a 3rd fast attack to make that legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    In lower points, you don't really have a choice. AP and decent damage is a thing. Mostly because against Marines you're more likely than not, to be facing things like Aggressors and Centurions, and maybe at the outside, you're going to deal with Hammernators because players are starting to get real sick of your **** The Yncarne. Not even mentioning all the new kids running Primaris Marines with 2 Wounds each. While Heat Lances aren't good, per se, they're the best you've got, and if you're running pure Drukhari like a scrub hobbyist, then you don't really have a choice. If you're playing Aeldari like a real man, then Reavers get replaced by Shining Spears and Scourges get replaced by Warp Spiders...Or, put another way...Pretty much everything Drukhari have can be replaced by a Craftworld counterpart. But we're not going down that road - because we aren't that kind of forum.
    (Cheesegear never takes 'the casual meta' into account. Never. Nope. Not even when talking about Drukhari when he was specifically pointing out differences between the competitive meta and the Marine/casual meta. Cheesegear only plays with and against competitive tournament lists, always.)

    EDIT: What I meant was, Heat Lances aren't for killing Vehicles. They're for killing heavy infantry with T<6. That said, so does Poison. But Heat Lances have the AP and Damage to matter.



    ...Which is why you're playing 8th Ed. Get yourself some Allies. I understand that certain people don't want to buy three different books to play their army. It gets pretty tiresome. But, Drukhari are currently bottom tier and need all the help they can get. That's what has made the Indecies so good for the game, particularly Xenos I, particularly for Harlequins and Drukhari (not so much for Craftworlders, they don't need help). Everything you need to make your army work, is in one book. You don't need to buy more books. You have no excuse not to use the models for the rules that you've been given... Unless you're a scrub hobbyist, and the only reason you don't use rules is self-imposed, arbitrary restrictions that nobody gave you.

    My point is, if you have the Index, you have the rules for everything non-Drukhari, too. Why not use all the tools you've been given?
    Heat Lances are total trash. For 2 Heat Lances, you get 3 Blasters and save 5 points. Sure, Blasters only do D3 damage, but in return they can reliably hurt vehicles, and 3d3>2d6 regardless. Agressors and Centurions? They only have 2-3 wounds anyways. The D3 damage is more then enough for them.


    As for allies, well Craftworld took a pretty significant nerf, pretty much across the board. Allying stuff in isn't as important, and is honestly going to become a bad choice once the codex comes out. Yeah, Shining Spears are better then Reavers. Besides that you'd want, Fire Dragons maybe? Which is a hefty chunk of change once you add in the Wave Serpent. Dark Reapers? Well Ravagers are cheaper but you get more shots, but the Ravager has better damage and is tougher, but the Dark Reapers are more accurate.

    All in all, I'd say Craftworld is likely on par with Dark Eldar, which I would say is middle tier, right along Space Marines.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    So, it really hammered the need for transports into the new guy. So thats something, right?
    While I was going through the last page, I saw the word 'finesse' get thrown around.
    No.

    What Drukhari is, is an unforgiving army. You can't afford to bring bad units. What's there to 'finesse'? You think the role of Kabalite Warriors changes depending on who your opponent is? No. Poison weapons kill Infantry. What else is there to do? You have to plan better? No you don't. Regardless of your opponent's Toughness, you're always wounding on 4s. Nothing changes. In fact, Kabalite Warriors require less finesse to use because they will only ever have exactly one role to play, regardless of opponent. You think that the one Dark Lance they can take per unit changes the role?

    Wyches. Transports move more than half the distances between DZs on Turn 1, and then you make a 3" Charge on Turn 2. What's there to 'finesse'? Wyches' role doesn't change based on your opponent. You Charge. That's it. As per classic Aeldari army construction, each unit does a thing, and is pretty good at that thing, and any time you don't do what the unit is supposed to do, you lose, because that's how Aeldari - even Craftworlders - play.

    This is even easier in 8th Ed., because of the 'I go, you go' mechanics of Deployment. You can tailor your Deployment to match/counter your opponent's. Your Wyches will always line up with Infantry-to-be-Charged, and your Trueborn/Scourges/Reavers will always set up opposite their desired targets, because that's actually how Deployment works in 8th Ed. Again, tell me where the finesse, is? Because I have no idea what those people are talking about. In fact, I don't believe 'finesse' is a factor in any army list, because all's you have to do is build your army list correctly knowing the weaknesses of your army list as a whole, and sometimes taking into account your existing units that you want to take no matter what.

    ...'8th Ed. is won during list construction.' is partly true. That's why my meta only plays Maelstrom (and now Open War), because the win conditions of the game force the player to make choices based on random events (i.e; card draw). Play to the cards, and you win. But you don't know what the cards are going to be, so how do you know what you need to do to win before the game starts? ...You don't. Choices have to be made during the game, risks have to be taken, based on what you know your army can do. Finesse. Once upon a time, a big factor of that was Deployment within the bounds of the board/terrain. But, yeah...'I go, you go' Deployment has effectively ruined that.

    What Drukhari are, however, is a mono-build. They're unforgiving on bad players who take units that don't do what the army list needs (e.g; Survivability, a.k.a Boats). Playing a mono-build doesn't require finesse. It only requires that you read your Codex/army list and don't waste your money/points on things you don't need.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Funny thing, the DE guy got paired with the 2x Whirlwind guy. Wyches dissapeared turn 1, alongside the Kabalites; all because the guy insisted on using his razorwing he just got second-hand instead of a transport xD

    then for 5 turns the Succubus and Haemonculus tried to get into assault with one rhino, while the jetfighter tried to not fly itself out of the map. One whirlwind died to volume of fire from the ship, and then the guy decided he had been 'playing nice' long enough, deep striked his assault marines to wipe the remaining HQs and the jetfighter died to whirlwind fire. Heh.

    So, it really hammered the need for transports into the new guy. So thats something, right?
    Well he can't say we didn't warn him. *shrug*
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    EDIT: What I meant was, Heat Lances aren't for killing Vehicles. They're for killing heavy infantry with T<6. That said, so does Poison. But Heat Lances have the AP and Damage to matter.
    Heat lance is 25 points, a kabalite is what? 7? that's almost 4 splinter rifles (and the wounds to go with them) instead of a heat lance. 8 shots (inside 12") wounding on 4's against 1 shot wounding on 3's? Even against 2+ armour or 2W 3+ saves they're equal. The only thing that heat lances are better at is when you're talking more than 2 wounds on infantry (so, characters or centurions?) or in the 12-18" range band against 2+ armour). Seems mighty specific to me. Plus the heat lance automatically loses a lot of its appeal against invulnerable saves.

    Also feels like a blaster would give you much the same deal for less points too, though against anything with 3 or more wounds then they're about even for cost. On top of that, dizzy cannons seem like they'd be the absolute tits for blasting <T6 multi wound infantry and IIRC, they're still the default loadout on raiders/ravagers/razorwings so once you feel like you've got enough dark lances, just keep spamming the same models but with their default dizzies instead.

    I dunno Cheese, heat lances just don't seem worth it (with the exception of if you're putting them on a chassis that can get into position to use them on things like characters I guess, which the DE should be able to do against elite armies who can't clog the board with chaff, but how much does anyone really care about elite armies at the moment?).

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    On top of that, dizzy cannons seem
    Dizzy Cannons are the best. Unfortunately, they don't go on Reavers/Scourges.

    I dunno Cheese, heat lances just don't seem worth it...
    If you want to get really specific, you're right. What are you even taking Reavers/Scourges for?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Heres my Sisters list.

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    HQ
    Celestine w/ 2 Geminae-250
    Cannoness-45
    Cannoness w/ Combi Plas-60

    Troops
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior and 2 Storm Bolters-98
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior and 2 Storm Bolters-98
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90

    Elite
    Imigafier-40
    Imigafier-40
    Imigafier-40
    Imigafier-40

    Fast Attack
    4 Dominions w/ Superior, Combi Flamer and 4 Flamers-97
    4 Dominions w/ Superior, Combi Melta and 4 Meltas-137


    Dedicated Transports
    Immolater w/ Twin Heavy Bolters-85
    Immolater w/ Twin Heavy Bolters-85

    Heavy Support
    Exorcist-160
    Exorcist-160
    4 Retributors w/Superior, Combi Plasma, and 4 Heavy Bolters-100
    4 Retributors w/Superior, Combi Plasma, and 4 Heavy Bolters-100

    Total:1995


    Originally i had a 2nd Melta squad with an Immolater and a 3rd Exorcist, but that was over 2k, so i had to cut them. Even after that i have a lot of firepower. One Cannoness is gonna chill with the Stormbolter ladies and the other with the Rets, Celestine will do Celestine things and the Imagifiers will be daisy chained throughout the army.

    I have 9 CPs to pretty much just use on rerolls, probably on the Exorcists.
    You need a third Fast Attack choice to qualify for a Brigade, so I'd put the second squad of melta-Doms back in and take out some normal sisters and maybe the fourth Imagifier if you have to. Maybe bring a couple of Rhinos for the Sisters, and so the Excorcists don't get hit with literally ALL the AT your opponent has and the Dominions have some buddies that can at least try to keep up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    In lower points, you don't really have a choice.
    The Heat Lance costs more than a Dark Lance, so I'm not sure why you think that.
    AP and decent damage is a thing. Mostly because against Marines you're more likely than not, to be facing things like Aggressors and Centurions, and maybe at the outside, you're going to deal with Hammernators because players are starting to get real sick of your **** The Yncarne. Not even mentioning all the new kids running Primaris Marines with 2 Wounds each. While Heat Lances aren't good, per se, they're the best you've got, and if you're running pure Drukhari like a scrub hobbyist, then you don't really have a choice.
    Multiwound models are what Disintegrators are for, to a lesser extent Blasters, and Dark Lances once you run out tanks. The best source of which are Ravagers and Trueborn respectively. And anything that can take a Heat Lance for 25pts, can either take a Lance for 20 or a Blaster for 15 instead, and do a better job cheaper.

    If you're playing Aeldari like a real man, then Reavers get replaced by Shining Spears and Scourges get replaced by Warp Spiders...Or, put another way...Pretty much everything Drukhari have can be replaced by a Craftworld counterpart. But we're not going down that road - because we aren't that kind of forum.
    (Cheesegear never takes 'the casual meta' into account. Never. Nope. Not even when talking about Drukhari when he was specifically pointing out differences between the competitive meta and the Marine/casual meta. Cheesegear only plays with and against competitive tournament lists, always.)

    EDIT: What I meant was, Heat Lances aren't for killing Vehicles. They're for killing heavy infantry with T<6. That said, so does Poison. But Heat Lances have the AP and Damage to matter.
    I understand that Heat Lances work best against medium-toughness high-HP models. It's just that other weapons also work fine against those models, while also working well against other things, and being cheaper into the bargain. Compare:

    - 5 Scourge, 4 Heat Lances - 170pts, 4 shots, Str 6 AP-5 Dmg d6 (3.5)
    The cheapest way to get Lances in bulk. Other ways will get you fewer shots for higher price, and do worse than this.
    - 5 Scourge, 4 Blasters - 130pts, 4 shots, Str 8 AP-4 Dmg D3 (2)
    Not your standard Blaster unit, but fine for comparing price/effectiveness with the unit above since everything that can take Heat can take Blasters.
    - Ravager, 3 Disintegrators - 185pts, 9 shots, Str 5 AP-3 Dmg 2
    The generic best thing about Kabalites. And if you're not the best...

    An Aggressor has T5 Sv3+ and 2 wounds. The Ravager kills 2~3 everytime. The Heat Lances get 1.7 wounds through, and kill 1~2 if you don't roll 1s on damage. The Blasters do the same as the Lances, but with a slightly higher chance of rolling a 1.

    A Centurion has T5 Sv2+ and 3 Wounds. This is as good a target as the Lances will ever get. They get 1.7 wounds through again and kill 0~2, depending on if they roll a 1 or 2 for damage on either (which has a 5/9 chance of happening outside half range, 1/3 inside). Dissies get two wounds through and kill 1. Blasters get 1.5 wounds through and kill 0~1, with an outside chance of 2 if they roll astoundingly.

    So against a typical target, other weapons do better. And against the best possible target, those weapons still do as well. And they perform great against other things too (mathhammer shows Dissies are better than Lances against all targets other than T6 and 7, they just cost more.)

    ...Which is why you're playing 8th Ed. Get yourself some Allies. I understand that certain people don't want to buy three different books to play their army. It gets pretty tiresome. But, Drukhari are currently bottom tier and need all the help they can get. That's what has made the Indecies so good for the game, particularly Xenos I, particularly for Harlequins and Drukhari (not so much for Craftworlders, they don't need help). Everything you need to make your army work, is in one book. You don't need to buy more books. You have no excuse not to use the models for the rules that you've been given... Unless you're a scrub hobbyist, and the only reason you don't use rules is self-imposed, arbitrary restrictions that nobody gave you.

    My point is, if you have the Index, you have the rules for everything non-Drukhari, too. Why not use all the tools you've been given?
    As you know full well from your Raven Guard experience, I'm not playing Dark Eldar to use Craftworlds/Ynnari models.

    I was thinking about trying the Ynnarri rules out (Strength from Death is very on brand with Dark Eldar after all), but then they went and errata'd it to say "must bring a special character" and I don't like any of them. My meta is nice and casual and I like it that way. Besides, contrary to popular opinion there are things Dark Eldar do better than Craftworlds and Ynnarri: Ravagers, Raiders and Venoms. Eg, everything I enjoy about them.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Funny thing, the DE guy got paired with the 2x Whirlwind guy. Wyches dissapeared turn 1, alongside the Kabalites; all because the guy insisted on using his razorwing he just got second-hand instead of a transport xD

    then for 5 turns the Succubus and Haemonculus tried to get into assault with one rhino, while the jetfighter tried to not fly itself out of the map. One whirlwind died to volume of fire from the ship, and then the guy decided he had been 'playing nice' long enough, deep striked his assault marines to wipe the remaining HQs and the jetfighter died to whirlwind fire. Heh.

    So, it really hammered the need for transports into the new guy. So thats something, right?
    Whoops? Well, lesson learned I suppose. Razorwings are fine in 1000pt+ games, they just need the ground support first. Tell him to always use Shatterfield missiles, maths shows they're the best against literally everything. They also do pretty well at character sniping, since they can leap behind a protective unit and pour fire in from behind.
    Last edited by Voidhawk; 2017-10-07 at 06:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Scourges (x5); x4 Heat Lances - 170 Points
    Scourges (x5); x4 Blasters - 130 Points
    You know what? For some reason I thought Blasters were more expensive. That's me told.
    I don't use them anyway, 'cause they ain't boats. So, to tell the truth, I don't even care that I got it wrong.

    As you know full well from your Raven Guard experience, I'm not playing Dark Eldar to use Craftworlds/Ynnari models.
    A reason I fully accept. Just so long as you're aware that when you do something like that - as I have - it may possibly lead to losing games, and mono-builds to make things happen or not at all.

    Besides, contrary to popular opinion there are things Dark Eldar do better than Craftworlds and Ynnarri: Ravagers, Raiders and Venoms.
    Boats, boats, boats!
    It is, the one thing that Drukhari do well. Raiders in boats, Wyches in boats, x9 Heavy Boats...Just not Wracks in Boats.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2017-10-07 at 07:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    "Boats Boats Boats!" is literally the name of one of my lists. I don't expect many people to get the ref (HIMYM isn't as popular here in the UK).

    It is, the one thing that Drukhari do well. Raiders in boats, Wyches in boats, x9 Heavy Boats...Just not Wracks in Boats.
    A Raider in another Raider would be a thing to see.

    For a while Scourge and Hellions could get in them as well, but the errata put paid to that particular shenanigan. And I've heard debates about putting Mandrakes in them. I've also seen a list that is literally just two Spearheads with 9 Ravagers and 3 Tantalus (Forgeworld Ravager variant). Ob-Sec is for people who don't aim for tabling everytime.

    Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of non-boat Dark Eldar units that are fine/fun. The boats are just the ones that no-one else does. (Harlequins do a decent job, but they don't have as good stuff to fire out from inside. Don't mention Sister's Repressors unless you want Forgeworld to get banned in your group.)
    Last edited by Voidhawk; 2017-10-07 at 08:38 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    You need a 3rd fast attack to make that legal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    You need a third Fast Attack choice to qualify for a Brigade, so I'd put the second squad of melta-Doms back in and take out some normal sisters and maybe the fourth Imagifier if you have to. Maybe bring a couple of Rhinos for the Sisters, and so the Excorcists don't get hit with literally ALL the AT your opponent has and the Dominions have some buddies that can at least try to keep up.
    *facetable* Crap, your right. Prbabaly gonna have to go with Seraphim solely because they're cheaper. Also i cant put Rhinos in as i have no points for them and the Doms are used to running solo anyway, just like the Exorcists are used to taking all the AT fire, cuz i play Sisters and we dont have tanks

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    HQ
    Celestine w/ 2 Geminae-250
    Cannoness-45
    Cannoness w/ Combi Plas-60

    Troops
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior and 2 Storm Bolters-98
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior and 2 Storm Bolters-98
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90
    9 Sisters w/ Veteran Superior-90

    Elite
    Imigafier-40
    Imigafier-40
    Imigafier-40


    Fast Attack
    4 Dominions w/ Superior, Combi Flamer and 4 Flamers-97
    4 Dominions w/ Superior, Combi Melta and 4 Meltas-137
    4 Seraphim w/ Superior-55


    Dedicated Transports
    Immolater w/ Twin Heavy Bolters-85
    Immolater w/ Twin Heavy Bolters-85

    Heavy Support
    Exorcist-160
    Exorcist-160
    4 Retributors w/Superior, and 4 Heavy Bolters-100
    4 Retributors w/Superior, Combi Plasma, and 4 Heavy Bolters-100

    Total:1995


    Ok so the Min Seraphim squad has one job, stand in front of Celestine so she cant get shot.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    I've heard debates about putting Mandrakes in them.
    IMO it's a case of SUA being optional. Taking a Dedicated Transport per unit is a thing. So, chances are you can end up having an empty boat just because you took as many boats as you have, units (which is what you're supposed to do). So, if your opponent is going first, or already has proper Infiltrators on the board, chances are pretty good that your opponent has already taken all the best SUA spots on the board, and you're better off with a boat Move.

    I've also seen a list that is literally just two Spearheads with 9 Ravagers...
    I haven't seen the Tantalus. But x9 Heavy Boats is a real list that works. Falls apart pretty quickly, but it's a nice curveball lists for 'local' tournaments.

    there are plenty of non-boat Dark Eldar units that are fine/fun.
    I know what those words mean, individually. But when you put them in that order, to make that sentence...I don't even know what you just wrote.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    IMO it's a case of SUA being optional. Taking a Dedicated Transport per unit is a thing. So, chances are you can end up having an empty boat just because you took as many boats as you have, units (which is what you're supposed to do). So, if your opponent is going first, or already has proper Infiltrators on the board, chances are pretty good that your opponent has already taken all the best SUA spots on the board, and you're better off with a boat Move.
    The talk I was seeing was basically saying "They have an 18" gun that can hurt anything, and 3 attacks base. Why not use them as the basic troops too?", and then filling a Vanguard detachment out. Sure, they don't need a Raider per say, but nothing ever got worse for gaining manoeuvrability, survivability, and an AT-gun.

    Really, it's just another symptom of what I was saying before: every army will have 2 or 3 units that are literally the best, and spamming them with no concern for anything else is the solved game-state.
    I haven't seen the Tantalus. But x9 Heavy Boats is a real list that works. Falls apart pretty quickly, but it's a nice curveball lists for 'local' tournaments.
    Sorry, I managed to get the only two supported Dark Eldar Forgeworld units mixed up. I meant the Reaper. It's basically a Ravager that can fire either d6 Dark Lance shots, or 2d6 Str 6 AP0 shots. More expensive though.

    I know what those words mean, individually. But when you put them in that order, to make that sentence...I don't even know what you just wrote.
    Mandrakes. I meant "Mandrakes are good". (EDIT: and in a nice casual meta like mine, Scourge, Hellions and Reavers are all fine. And fun too!)

    There's also alot of number crunching and debate online about the various Beast options. Khymera and Clawed Fiends are both pretty good at eating hordes, but are slow by DE standards with "only" a 10" move.
    Last edited by Voidhawk; 2017-10-07 at 02:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Really, it's just another symptom of what I was saying before: every army will have 2 or 3 units that are literally the best, and spamming them with no concern for anything else is the solved game-state.
    ...That's pretty much how it's always been.
    The problem with Drukhari (and this actually is also how it's been, at least since 5th), is that they only have two or three units that are literally the best. You take your best-in-slot or best-in-Codex...And then what? Your options range from best-in-slot, to worst-in-slot, with no other options in between. There are no '8/10' options that you can fudge with 'because you like them', and then not lose because you took those units.

    While many armies have a 'best build', they also have 'good builds', too (I can actually get by most games not using Raven Guard or Ultramarines). Drukhari's problem is that the best build is the only build (e.g; Mono-build).

    Khymera and Clawed Fiends are both pretty good at eating hordes, but are slow by DE standards with "only" a 10" move.
    That is slow, especially for unit that isn't in a boat.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    So my LGS kicked off our Fall campaign tonight, and in my first game I tabled my orc opponent in two turns. Really not sure how I feel about that. On one hand my dice were on fire and he couldn't roll over a 3, he made some strange misplays forgetting mission rules, had some poor positioning, and a mission specific stategem meant my guardsman were hitting well over their weight class; and on the other lemans being able to fire twice was just redonk. Also think we needed to put down even more terrain, as turn 1 was practically a turkey shoot, though I was blocked from LoS turn 2 but the damage was already done.


    Pyrriah: Defense of Cilicia
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    ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [55 PL, 1000pts] ++

    + HQ +

    Company Commander [3 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Shotgun

    Tank Commander [13 PL, 223pts]: Heavy Bolters, Lascannon
    . Command Punisher: Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

    + Troops +

    Infantry Squad [3 PL, 75pts]
    . 5x Guardsman
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher
    . Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
    . Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
    . Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword

    Infantry Squad [3 PL, 75pts]
    . 5x Guardsman
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher
    . Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
    . Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
    . Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword

    Infantry Squad [3 PL, 75pts]
    . 5x Guardsman
    . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher
    . Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
    . Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
    . Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword

    + Elites +

    Ratlings [2 PL, 35pts]
    . 5x Ratling: 5x Sniper Rifle

    Veterans [6 PL, 107pts]
    . Veteran Sergeant: Laspistol, Power sword
    . Veteran W/ Heavy Flamer: Heavy flamer
    . 4x Veteran w/ Shotgun
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Flamer
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Flamer
    . Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Flamer
    . Veteran w/ Vox-caster: Shotgun, Vox-caster

    + Heavy Support +

    Leman Russ Battle Tanks [22 PL, 380pts]
    . Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon
    . Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon

    ++ Total: [55 PL, 1000pts] ++

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    ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Orks) [68 PL, 954pts] ++

    + HQ +

    Big Mek [5 PL, 87pts]: Kustom Force Field, Rokkit Launcha

    Big Mek [5 PL, 87pts]: Kustom Force Field, Rokkit Launcha

    Warboss in MA [7 PL, 136pts]: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw

    + Troops +

    Boyz [13 PL, 138pts]
    . Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
    . 22x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

    Boyz [13 PL, 138pts]
    . Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
    . 22x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

    Boyz [13 PL, 138pts]
    . Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
    . 22x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

    + Elites +

    Nob w/ Waaagh! Banner [4 PL, 79pts]: Kustom Shoota

    + Heavy Support +

    Deff Dread [8 PL, 151pts]
    . Deff Dread: Dread Klaw, Skorcha
    . . Pair of Klaw Arms: 2x Dread Klaw

    ++ Total: [68 PL, 954pts] ++

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    So, my play group had a 2v1 3000pts-per-side game today. One side was Imperial Guard, the other was 1500pts each of Dark Eldar and Mechanicus. The IG player brought a full Brigade of Valhallans, a Battalion of Tempestus Scions, and a Spearhead of Russ for a total of 16CPs. He then took a Relic that got him a CP on a 5+(6+?) whenever we spent a CP, and a Warlord Trait that got him a CP back on a 5+ whenever he spent one.

    He ended the game having spent 27CPs, and with two still unspent, spending 12 in the first turn alone. We were staggered (and pretty much tabled).
    Last edited by Voidhawk; 2017-10-08 at 04:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    That relic, it only fires when your opponent uses a stratagem. Not when they spend a command point. So he mighta been double tapping, if you were using 2-3 point strategems.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Demiurge View Post
    That relic, it only fires when your opponent uses a stratagem. Not when they spend a command point. So he mighta been double tapping, if you were using 2-3 point strategems.
    No, we knew about that and he was doing it correctly. But since we mostly only used 1CP strats it didn't come up much. He just recycled more than 10 points.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Okay, then his dice were pretty much just nuts, then.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Demiurge View Post
    Okay, then his dice were pretty much just nuts, then.
    Again, not really. He started with 16, I had 6 and my partner had 7. So when we collectively spent all 29, he should average on a 5+ to get back about 10. Which he can then later spend and get back 3, and then spend those for another 1. He might have been above average (there were a few points I didn't write down because he rolled them back before my pencil got to the paper), but not unexpectedly so.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Thanks for clarifying. I sit corrected.

    Can't wait to try that warlord/relic combo for myself. Especially with all the neat, explodey-type strategems that the Guard gets to play with...
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Imperial Fists, Battalion Detachment (+3 CPs)
    (W) Captain; Combi-Plasma, Power Sword - 93 Points Storm of Fire
    Lieutenant with Jump Pack; Master-Crafted Boltgun [The Primarch's Wrath] - 81 Points

    Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles - 75 Points
    Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles - 75 Points
    Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles - 75 Points
    Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles - 75 Points

    Devastators (x5); x4 Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolter + Armorium Cherub - 112 Points
    Hellblasters (x5); Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points

    Grey Knights, Battalion Detachment (+3 CPs)
    Grand Master Voldus - 190 Points Purge Soul, Vortex, Sanctuary
    Brother-Captain; Falchions, Storm Bolter - 152 Points Sanctuary

    Strike Squad (x5); Falchions, x1 Hammer, x4 Storm Bolters, Psilencer - 120 Points Astral Aim
    Strike Squad (x5); Falchions, x1 Hammer, x4 Storm Bolters, Psilencer - 120 Points Astral Aim
    Strike Squad (x5); Falchions, x4 Storm Bolters, Psilencer - 107 Points Gate
    Strike Squad (x5); Falchions, x4 Storm Bolters, Psilencer - 107 Points Gate

    Stormraven Gunship - 274 Points
    Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, Stormstrike Missile Launchers (x2), Hurricane Bolters (x2)

    Stormtalon Gunship; Twin Assault Cannon, Skyhammer Missile Launcher - 179 Points

    Total: 2000 Points


    He had six (seven? eight? I didn't count, and he had enough for two Battalions, but less than he would need to run three, because he told me) Infantry Squads, three Commissars, three Officers.
    MTs; 3 Officers, 3 Command Squads and two Valkyries
    Primaris Psykers
    9 Mortars?
    Codex only came out two days ago and I didn't buy it (yet). Can't give you a reasonably exact list.

    Things went swimmingly for me, right from Turn 1, as I drew Kingslayer and Assassinate, and a SecObX that I was already on. Drop, drop, drop.
    Straight off the bat, Voldus goes for a Purge Soul on a Commissar. "Characters can't be targeted." ...Yeah, in the Shooting phase. Voldus then throws a Vortex o' Doom at the nearest Infantry unit - because them's the rules - fortunately, Vortex hits all units within 3", which includes the Characters in, around and behind the unit. Magic dice rolls kill off the first Commissar, another Commissar, and an Officer. My Strike Knights in the middle of the board put Astral Aim on my Stormraven.

    My Scouts fire their Rifles at my opponent's Warlord with the Relic that does the thing with the Command Points. As my Lieutenant has used his Jump Pack to SUA on top of my Scouts, two of my units get rr1s To Wound, and I roll just enough 6s to make it hurt, and, Imperial Fists' Snipers are really good at killing Characters, because Characters are single models and will always have Cover Saves...Unless you play Imperial Fists and have a hate-boner for Characters. That's Warlord. Kingslayer and D3 for Assassinate please, and I still haven't used a Command Point...

    Bolter Drill on the Devastators.
    Psybolt Ammo on the Astral Aim'd Stormraven.

    My Shooting phase, my Strike Knights clean out his front rank of Infantry. My Stormraven (now named Georgius IV) can hit what it can't see. Drop those Mortars down a peg and throw some Missiles into the Valkyries for good measure. With the Commissars taken out, things look bleak as my opponent fails Morale tests and loses even more dudes.

    His Turn 1, I've left him an incredibly bad board state (I have board control with four units of Scouts). He drops his Volley Gun Command Squad down in the only place he can. Surprising no-one, I use Auspex Scan on the Devastators and pop the fat baby. As Auspex Scan counts as being the Shooting phase, Storm of Fire procs as welll and his Volley Gun squad drops like a rock. With barely any Orders to fall on, and more than half his Infantry dead on Turn 1, I can tell he doesn't do nearly enough damage as he'd hoped.

    My Turn 2, goes about the same as the first. I bait out his Denies and then use Astral Aim on my Stormraven, which then proceeds to strafe what it can't see - again.

    My opponent concedes at the end of his Turn 2. I have 2D3+5 (?) VPs by that point. He has IIRC, 3 or 4.

    "Grey Knights are broken."
    Whoa. Hold up. Guard don't get to say that. The reason I won is because he net-listed like a scrub. Now, he did bring Valkyries, and that's a fun twist. But he still had the same core concept. Put a [poop]-ton of models on the board and hope your opponent didn't bring enough bullets. I designed my list to kill Characters, and I designed my list to kill hordes. If he had brought more than like,
    two Leman Russes, I would have lost - and I did tell him so. The fact is, I knew what my opponent would have before he even put it on the table, because that's the kind of meta I'm in. That's why I won. Not because I have a broken list, but because my opponents are bad.

    "What site did you get your list from?"
    'What s-?' Holy ****. No.

    Spoiler: You'll Never Guess
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    He played Jetbikes and Wraithknights in 7th Ed., and would also complain when his opponents would bring AP3> Ignores Cover and somehow win.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2017-10-08 at 08:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Spoiler
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    Imperial Fists, Battalion Detachment (+3 CPs)
    (W) Captain; Combi-Plasma, Power Sword - 93 Points Storm of Fire
    Lieutenant with Jump Pack; Master-Crafted Boltgun [The Primarch's Wrath] - 81 Points

    Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles - 75 Points
    Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles - 75 Points
    Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles - 75 Points
    Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles - 75 Points

    Devastators (x5); x4 Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolter + Armorium Cherub - 112 Points
    Hellblasters (x5); Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points

    Grey Knights, Battalion Detachment (+3 CPs)
    Grand Master Voldus - 190 Points Purge Soul, Vortex, Sanctuary
    Brother-Captain; Falchions, Storm Bolter - 152 Points Sanctuary

    Strike Squad (x5); Falchions, x1 Hammer, x4 Storm Bolters, Psilencer - 120 Points Astral Aim
    Strike Squad (x5); Falchions, x1 Hammer, x4 Storm Bolters, Psilencer - 120 Points Astral Aim
    Strike Squad (x5); Falchions, x4 Storm Bolters, Psilencer - 107 Points Gate
    Strike Squad (x5); Falchions, x4 Storm Bolters, Psilencer - 107 Points Gate

    Stormraven Gunship - 274 Points
    Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, Stormstrike Missile Launchers (x2), Hurricane Bolters (x2)

    Stormtalon Gunship; Twin Assault Cannon, Skyhammer Missile Launcher - 179 Points

    Total: 2000 Points
    *doof* I like the list, even if it terrifies me.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    "What site did you get your list from?"
    'What s-?' Holy ****. No.

    Spoiler: You'll Never Guess
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    He played Jetbikes and Wraithknights in 7th Ed., and would also complain when his opponents would bring AP3> Ignores Cover and somehow win.
    To be fair, it doesn't take a genius to look at 7th eldar or 8th guard and pick out the best units in the book and even if it did, even the most cursory look at any 40k forum had/has people screaming about 7th eldar/8th guard respectively and crying about how [x] unit/s are far too good.

    On the other hand, if you're going to be a blatant powergamer (running only the power units out of the top 'dex) and then complaining when you lose (even if your opponent has list tailored), well, you deserve all the ridicule you get. I know I never used to let my Eldar opponents forget the rare occassions they lost to my TSons.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    If he had brought more than like, two Leman Russes, I would have lost - and I did tell him so. The fact is, I knew what my opponent would have before he even put it on the table, because that's the kind of meta I'm in. That's why I won. Not because I have a broken list, but because my opponents are bad.

    "What site did you get your list from?"
    'What s-?' Holy ****. No.

    Spoiler: You'll Never Guess
    Show
    He played Jetbikes and Wraithknights in 7th Ed., and would also complain when his opponents would bring AP3> Ignores Cover and somehow win.
    Interestingly, if you'd faced my casual opponent from yesterday I think you'd have struggled (because that's how meta-busting lists go). He's a pretty big tread-head, so when asked how he'd cut his list down to 2000pts he said he'd just drop the Militarum Tempestus Battalion but keep the Brigade and all the tanks: 4 Russes, 2 Hellhounds, a Basilisk, a Manticore, 6 Plasma-Sentinels, backed up by 9 heavy-weapon bases, a Primaris Pysker and 6 infantry squads with plasmaguns to bubble wrap. His Commissar died on turn 1 to a Reaver charge, but the rest of the officers were either in a Chimera or safely out of sight behind terrain/Russes.

    He's encountered the "But I like Saim-Hann!" problem, and is a little sad that everything got buffed so much. Because now in order to have a balanced game he can't take the stuff he enjoys. I'm considering if a Points Handicap might be the way forward for IG in our group, but so much of the issues seem to stem from basic game-mechanics favouring them I'm not sure it would help.
    Last edited by Voidhawk; 2017-10-09 at 07:31 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    On the other hand, if you're going to be a blatant powergamer (running only the power units out of the top 'dex) and then complaining when you lose...
    The thing that bothers me, in particular, is that because he net-listed, in order to beat him, I must have, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Interestingly, if you'd faced my casual opponent [...] big tread-head, so when asked how he'd cut his list down to 2000pts he said he'd just drop the Militarum Tempestus Battalion but keep all the tanks: 4 Russes, 2 Hellhounds, a Basilisk, a Manticore, 6 Plasma-Sentinels, backed up by 9 heavy-weapon bases
    Yeah. I'm considering dropping the Hellblasters for Devastators with Lasers, and I think that for 179 Points, the Stormtalon doesn't pull its weight either - I just like it. I could potentially add two Venerable Dreads with Lasers and Missiles.

    but so much of the issues [of Guard] seem to stem from basic game-mechanics favouring them...
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The thing that bothers me, in particular, is that because he net-listed, in order to beat him, I must have, as well.
    Those netlists have to come from somewhere though, so if you're the one giving advice (and I imagine you're one of the knowledgable veterans at your local as well as here), then it's pretty hard to accuse you of netlisting. Doubly so when Imperial Fists are involved, since I'm advised that they're just the worst...

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Doubly so when Imperial Fists are involved, since I'm advised that they're just the worst...
    Imperial Fists are just the regular kind of bad, with one or two very specific units in very specific circumstances. It just turns out, that within the last month, the only two things IFs are good against, is what The Meta is. The instant someone isn't spamming units that Boltguns are effective against, or liberally spamming Characters-in-Cover, IFs fall apart.

    Iron Hands, though, are actually the worst.
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Think I'm gonna start focusing on 40k more coming up. My AoS army is pretty much where I want it aside from a few models to finish and my Necrons aren't cutting it.

    Planning on starting something new. Guard are strong for sure, but I feel like my list is really one note, honestly I'm not sure Alpha Striking armies can keep attention for very long. And yes I know that's pretty much the game right now, but I would prefer to have an army that can have board presence and play the long game more tactically. Preferably something that isn't either "all in Alpha Strike" or "castle up with Artillery".

    Death Guard seem to fit that with their new Codex and Mortarion, though I'm not a huge fan of gross models (though it could be a fun conversion army). AdMech seem as though they could be really strong at that type of game, but I've not read into them too much as of yet.

    What do you guys think? Is there room in the meta for playing more tactically or is it just looking at an uphill struggle to compete?

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

    Ad Mech do seem all about playing the board. They are an army that is all about offense as far as I can see, which seems to be what you want. Plus the models are great
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