D&D Year Zero?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

A while back I read a thread somewhere on GitP brainstorming what a campaign setting starting every race at "year zero" simultaneously would look like. No ancient, forgotten civilizations, no existing tech, just a big world and the need to survive. There was interesting discussion about the dichotomy between the races with darkvision.

However now I can't seem to find it. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Zorku]

Aint seen it (and the forum seems to have a sort of archive thing that moves old threads somewhere... else,) but a lot of survival oriented homebrew kind of just dumps a bunch of folks from some other plane into the setting via portals and then they build from there.

Was the idea to start at year 0 in terms of tech and general knowledge, or to basically still be in psuedo dark ages with all the metal weapons and whatnot available basically as soon as the races can secure access to some clay, raw metals, and they've got their food sorted out enough that the guy that knows how to do that stuff can start slapping stone blocks together until he's got a suitable workspace to start very basic smithing (so basically, a fresh server with some of the more low tech - survival oriented minecraft mods)?

Did they come up with anything for where the magical relics come from, or replacements for forgotten and buried dungeons and ruined keeps and such?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Aint seen it (and the forum seems to have a sort of archive thing that moves old threads somewhere... else,) but a lot of survival oriented homebrew kind of just dumps a bunch of folks from some other plane into the setting via portals and then they build from there.

Was the idea to start at year 0 in terms of tech and general knowledge, or to basically still be in psuedo dark ages with all the metal weapons and whatnot available basically as soon as the races can secure access to some clay, raw metals, and they've got their food sorted out enough that the guy that knows how to do that stuff can start slapping stone blocks together until he's got a suitable workspace to start very basic smithing (so basically, a fresh server with some of the more low tech - survival oriented minecraft mods)?

Did they come up with anything for where the magical relics come from, or replacements for forgotten and buried dungeons and ruined keeps and such?

Absolute Year Zero. No prior civilization, not even Dark Ages technology, more like Stone Age, and definitely no magical relics until someone makes one. Even the dragons and outsiders are starting as 1HD newbies, with no gods to start with.
One of the more interesting aspects imo was that starting ages for the classes and races were taken into account. Elves had to reach 114 to take their first level in an intuitive class while Goblins got in at 13, giving the long-lived races that normally make up the established magical elite of the world a fairly major handicap.

[Mechalich]

Absolute Year Zero. No prior civilization, not even Dark Ages technology, more like Stone Age, and definitely no magical relics until someone makes one. Even the dragons and outsiders are starting as 1HD newbies, with no gods to start with.
One of the more interesting aspects imo was that starting ages for the classes and races were taken into account. Elves had to reach 114 to take their first level in an intuitive class while Goblins got in at 13, giving the long-lived races that normally make up the established magical elite of the world a fairly major handicap.

Then the Dragons win. They fight a huge war and whichever alignment-oriented faction wins becomes the dominant power over the planet, prevents the development of humanoid civilization above the hunter-gatherer level and any significant magical development and reigns forever. No magic means no high-powered outsiders, and without high-powered outsiders, there's nothing in the books capable of taking on upper age category dragons. Dragons become great wyrms simply after 1200 years have passed, which is much, much less time than it takes for any sort of advanced civilization capable of challenging them to develop.

The actual early history of Dragonlance unfolded in this fashion, and it was only when the Elves allied with the few remaining good dragons and got their hands on that sweet, sweet spell power that the chromatic dominion was overthrown. The history of the Forgotten Realms is similar.

There are, of course, some applicable tweaks. For instance, if there are any shadows manifest in the world at Year Zero, then you get the Shadowocalpyse and everybody dies.

[Johel]

Then the Dragons win. They fight a huge war and whichever alignment-oriented faction wins becomes the dominant power over the planet, prevents the development of humanoid civilization above the hunter-gatherer level and any significant magical development and reigns forever.

This could actually explain the medieval stasis the world might be in.

Dragons are very long-lived beings, with physical abilities that make them unkillable by most mortal creatures and mental abilities that make them so above humans that we can't be sure HOW it would reflect. On top of that, they have magical powers that, even with today's technology, would make it hard for us to fight a species VS species conventional conflict.

Because of this, they don't feel threatened by civilizations getting up to pre-industrial levels. Add to this the fact that they are naturally prideful creatures, sleep for years and aren't really interested by mortals beyond the "hey, that's a shiny/yummy thing they got there !!".
They are also solitary creatures, what with having very big territories each and also being to greedy to share much. This, being long lived, taking a lot of nap and being very sure of their own abilities means their social life is the "long-distance relationship" kind of type. With internet. Or even a phone. Or letters.

They could have easily let civilization grow unchecked to the point where there were agriculture, writing, kingdoms, communion with the gods, wizards and scientists,...

By then, a few eldest dragons might have gotten worried a little about mortals getting too smart and organized. But by then, dragons themselves weren't that much organized anymore, what with having no need for a complex, hierarchized and well-connected society. So those lonely elders got worried and maybe some even went full genocide on the local kingdoms but then they would go back to sleep a century or so and the mortals would build back by the time grumpy grandpa lizard awoke again.
After the fifth time, chances are that the wyrm got accustomed to it and just didn't want to spend too much effort doing pest control. He would squash the most obvious threats and that would be it.

Young dragons would eventually take notice of the growing mortal kingdoms and some might ressent the fact that said kingdoms are encroaching on dragon territories, much in the same way we would see rats setting nest in our garden. But then, those dragons are young so, unless they can band together, destroying a mortal kingdom might not be that easy. And some might even see an advantage in keeping those kingdoms as pets.

Sometime, a dragon is being killed by a bunch of humans. This isn't automatically a bad thing : younger dragons see this as a boon, as it means some free territory (and a hoard). They would fight over it for a lenghty period, scheming and dreaming but, from the human perspective, wouldn't do much.
And then, a century or so latter, grandpa would get up, check on his children and grandchildren and so... and would learn that Zzzzrapanakut, son of Xanarazzlat, his fifth daughter, got killed "recently" by a bunch of mortal in that valley over there. Grandpa would fly to the valley, burn the murderer's grandgrandchildren along with everyone around and call it a day.
Since nobody among humans remembered the "murderers" or even knew that this precise dragon attack was about avenging that action that happened a century ago, the "dragon raids" would be just seen as a natural disaster, much like volcanic eruptions : it happens, bad luck, can't do anything except rebuild.

Those ancient civilizations that vanished "suddently" and left only ruins and legends ? They had done something that REALLY pissed off an old dragon when he woke up. It could be killing one too many of his children. Or it could be he was grumpy and they were settled on the wrong continent at the wrong time. Or it could be that this civilization actually KILLED an old dragon... and ALL his descendants, along with most other dragons around, got scared as hell and banded together to wipe out the problem for sure.

Each time this happens, whatever the scale, a lot of knowledge, infrastructure and people are lost... but survivors still rebuild slowly. And so the "medieval stasis" is maintain because, at that technological level, it is very hard to do something that will scare the dragons to the point they organize themselves to organize a culling.

[AMFV]

I'm not sure that the dragons do... It takes several hundred years for them to reach maturity, and during that time they're a dangerous monster that people might want to not have around their children. So unless they're far away from everybody, there's going to be a strong incentive to kill them while they're young. And the other races develop much much faster, that's one of the strong weakness of the long-lived folks in this puzzle.

[redwizard007]

*snip*

This is highly dependant on the setting specifics.

How are traditional classes affected by year 0? Are casters able to progress as normal? What about the martial classes? If everyone is really starting with a blank slate and spells must be researched, gods must be discovered (or created,) and fighting styles have not yet been developed, then it could possibly roll out something like Johel is describing.

If, on the other hand, we assume that the classes are unchanged (because we are still playing D&D, after all) then the dragons will be extinct before any of them are old enough to breed. Elves and dwarves are probably wiped out as well. Goblins or kobolds may very well be the dominant life form, based purely on their ability to reproduce quickly and get to class levels far quicker than the classic races.

[Mechalich]

This is highly dependant on the setting specifics.

How are traditional classes affected by year 0? Are casters able to progress as normal? What about the martial classes? If everyone is really starting with a blank slate and spells must be researched, gods must be discovered (or created,) and fighting styles have not yet been developed, then it could possibly roll out something like Johel is describing.

If, on the other hand, we assume that the classes are unchanged (because we are still playing D&D, after all) then the dragons will be extinct before any of them are old enough to breed. Elves and dwarves are probably wiped out as well. Goblins or kobolds may very well be the dominant life form, based purely on their ability to reproduce quickly and get to class levels far quicker than the classic races.

If you're starting with nothing, that means you're starting in the Stone Age with no structures. You have to develop technologies as basic as spears. Wizardry doesn't exist, because no one has writing yet. There are no gods because the religious concepts beyond basic animism don't exist either. Additionally, you start with no sorcerers because there's no bloodlines yet. It's a judgment as to which caster classes are available from the outset. Shaman most likely, and Witch within a few years as otherworldly contracts are formed, Skald as oral traditions form in a generation or so. it is entirely possible that, with active Shamans with magical powers, gods never develop at all. Wizardry may never happen, since Witches draw on an alternative pathway, though sorcerers no doubt will start to appear once some cross-breeding occurs in a few generations. Also, there are no magic items at all.

The absence of technologies is a huge hindrance on martial classes - in a society where basic stone weapons are the most effective weapons martial classes are shoehorned into incredibly sub-optimal builds. For instance, the ranger archery path simply doesn't exist until someone invents a viable bow. There's no armor beyond hide efficacy for generations at best, even with magical enhancement of technological development.

So humanoids are, in general, screwed. Power is going to end up in the hands of whatever strong and potent monsters that are capable of forming a society of their own and wise enough to limit the magical development of the humanoids - most likely by systematic murder - take the reigns. Assuming no extraplanar entities - because there's no way to summon them - that leaves you with a small group of candidates.

Short list: Aboleth (aquatic only), Dragons (assuming they form something resembling a civilization), Giants (assuming one of the more intelligence sub-species manages to gain dominance and form a civilization), Hags (smart and possess innate cooperative magic), Nagas, and Rakshasas (a surprisingly strong candidate though they might be considered outsiders). That's pretty much the MM version.

[Johel]

How are traditional classes affected by year 0? Are casters able to progress as normal? What about the martial classes?

Base Classes

Barbarian : business as usual
The original badasses.

Bard : business as usual, though a bit more limited for instruments and weapons
When your only entertainement is stories by the fire, a bard is a very good calling.

Cleric : depends how getting contact with the outsiders (which the gods are) work
They could try to preach for their outsiders but would be hard-pressed to compete with druids.

Druid : business as usual
These dudes are your regular shamans, having weird abilities that they pretend are a connection with the spirits and whatnot.

Fighter : business as usual, though a bit more limited for instruments and weapons
Might need to wait for the rise of a proper warrior cast, though

Monk : business as usual, though a bit more limited for instruments and weapons
Might need to wait for the rise of a proper warrior cast, though

Paladin : depends how getting aware of the gods work. Also weapons...
Might need to wait for the rise of a proper warrior cast, though
Also, who is giving them those powers and why ?
Most likely candidate for dragon-fodder until metal is found.

Ranger : business as usual, though a bit more limited for instruments and weapons
The lack of bows for a few thousands of years might hurt some of the builds.

Rogue : no tools, very little weapons but otherwise good
The lack of currency and large communities might mean the rogue is now just a ranger with more skills and less combat abilities.

Sorcerer : business as usual
These dudes are like druids but which a much more narrow spell range.
But at least they don't have to answer to the natural order.

Wizard : no writing means no spellbook means no spell
These dudes are screwed : the scientific mindset isn't for a few thousands of thousands of years yet.

[redwizard007]

If you're starting with nothing, that means you're starting in the Stone Age with no structures. You have to develop technologies as basic as spears. Wizardry doesn't exist, because no one has writing yet. There are no gods because the religious concepts beyond basic animism don't exist either. Additionally, you start with no sorcerers because there's no bloodlines yet. It's a judgment as to which caster classes are available from the outset. Shaman most likely, and Witch within a few years as otherworldly contracts are formed, Skald as oral traditions form in a generation or so. it is entirely possible that, with active Shamans with magical powers, gods never develop at all. Wizardry may never happen, since Witches draw on an alternative pathway, though sorcerers no doubt will start to appear once some cross-breeding occurs in a few generations. Also, there are no magic items at all.

The absence of technologies is a huge hindrance on martial classes - in a society where basic stone weapons are the most effective weapons martial classes are shoehorned into incredibly sub-optimal builds. For instance, the ranger archery path simply doesn't exist until someone invents a viable bow. There's no armor beyond hide efficacy for generations at best, even with magical enhancement of technological development.

So humanoids are, in general, screwed. Power is going to end up in the hands of whatever strong and potent monsters that are capable of forming a society of their own and wise enough to limit the magical development of the humanoids - most likely by systematic murder - take the reigns. Assuming no extraplanar entities - because there's no way to summon them - that leaves you with a small group of candidates.

Short list: Aboleth (aquatic only), Dragons (assuming they form something resembling a civilization), Giants (assuming one of the more intelligence sub-species manages to gain dominance and form a civilization), Hags (smart and possess innate cooperative magic), Nagas, and Rakshasas (a surprisingly strong candidate though they might be considered outsiders). That's pretty much the MM version.

Sounds like just about the lamest campaign ever

[Mechalich]

Base Classes

I think break it down somewhat differently.

My breakdown:
Barbarian: available from Year 0
Bard: available from Year 0, but Bardic Knowledge function does not exist for at least several generations.
Cleric: Not available - no gods, no clerics.
Druid: available from Year 0, the most powerful class around by a significant margin.
Fighter: not available, no agriculture means no professional warriors
Monk: not available, philosophy hasn't developed yet.
Paladin: no concept of 'holy' means no holy warriors.
Ranger: available from Year 0, but probably severe limitations on starting favored enemies since most cultures will not encounter all creature types immediately, archery style not an option.
Rogue: class is available, but functions poorly in a hunter-gatherer band, replace with scout for a more viable option
Sorcerer: requires mixed bloodlines to provide innate magic to humanoids. This takes a few generations minimum, figure it comes on-line around Year 100.
Wizard: no writing, no philosophical mindset, no wizardry.


So you've got barbarians and rangers as your martial types, bards and also adepts as partial casters, and a very limited skill-based options (but there's not a whole lot you can use skills to do). Druids standout as a Tier I full caster that is hurt minimally by the equipment limitations (because they fight in wild shape anyway). So basically, humanoid influence is mediated almost entirely by what the druids choose to do. Since 'develop agriculture' is most definitely not on the average druid's priority list, a world dominated by high-powered druids from the Neolithic onwards stays as a bunch of scattered hunter-gatherer bands forever. So you'd need some sort of event to break druidic dominance and produce actual gods in order to jump-start civilization, which is probably represented by some sort of out-of-context problem emerging that druids can't stop (though in 3.X that's a bit of a hard sell, druids can stop a lot). Most commonly in D&D would be a rift to one of the Outer Planes letting the demons pour in.

[Johel]

So you've got barbarians and rangers as your martial types, bards and also adepts as partial casters, and a very limited skill-based options (but there's not a whole lot you can use skills to do). Druids standout as a Tier I full caster that is hurt minimally by the equipment limitations (because they fight in wild shape anyway). So basically, humanoid influence is mediated almost entirely by what the druids choose to do. Since 'develop agriculture' is most definitely not on the average druid's priority list, a world dominated by high-powered druids from the Neolithic onwards stays as a bunch of scattered hunter-gatherer bands forever. So you'd need some sort of event to break druidic dominance and produce actual gods in order to jump-start civilization, which is probably represented by some sort of out-of-context problem emerging that druids can't stop (though in 3.X that's a bit of a hard sell, druids can stop a lot). Most commonly in D&D would be a rift to one of the Outer Planes letting the demons pour in.

I can get behind that : prehistory should last for a few millions of years anyway so there's no hurry for those archimages reshaping reality from the top of their high towers in their own artificial demi-planes. Same goes for anything else we take for granted in most D&D setting.

The rift(s) between the planes could very well be, as you say, the moment for humanoids to start shining compare to dragons and other magical monsters.

The question would then be how are the gods and other outsiders created in that setting ?
Are the "alignement" outsiders like angels, demons, devils and the likes created by mortals dying and crossing to these planes ?
I could definitely see some mortal souls transform into outsiders after a few centuries and then peek into the material plane and realise how unfair it is for mortals... or simply see how big an opportunity it is for an entreprising "god" to seize.

Angels would plane shift to the material plane and talk directly to mortals they feel worthy of serving the Greater Good or whatever. Figuring out how to lend said mortals some kind of magic might take centuries if not longer but they could still start the "Divine Revolution" in two ways :

Interbreeding, which would create the first half-celestial and, down the line, sorcerers. It might take centuries before some really powerful sorcerers (as in "I have both the lineage and the charisma required to master high-level spells) emerge but once around, they would be a potent challenge for druids. Alternatively, warlocks might also start to emerge.

Setting up "places of power" which would just be spot where Angels (who are, after all, former mortals) would periodically come down to ear the plight of their followers. This would eventually be replace by rituals, runes and words of power, creating spells like Commune and Planar Ally, born of some kind of link between the outsider "gods" and their followers. While druids might still have the upper hand most of the times, the capacity of those early Clerics to call down their very own god might convince many tribe to convert.

As the divine spells are being developped through trials and errors by the outsiders and their followers, the sorcerers (and even some clerics) could try to pervert those spells, going around the whole "I need an outsider's patronage" thing. Planar Ally spells would be transformed into Planar Binding spells and Summon Monster spells.
Of course, the first instances of them working would be hillarious if no wardings and such are in place, with angry lesser demons slaughtering the assembly before saying "don't call me again..." and teleporting back. But as time goes by, the technique will be improved. And while some of these early mages are studying conjuration, other might try their hands at other spells, inspired by what they saw the angels and demons were capable of.

But I disgress !!

The moment outsiders and mortals find a way to communicate is the moment the dominance of dragons and the likes is contested. And it would go fast, with them being openly challenged only after a few centuries later. This doesn't prevent dragons from wipping out whole civilisations for trying too early or too directly. But it means adult dragons now have competition on a whole new scale.


Playing in a E6 setting like that one might be fun :

Mortals being pulled between worshipping physical gods like dragons and cloud giants on one hand and worshipping outsider gods like angels, demons and devils on the other hand. And then there are the druids who say Nature is the only force to which one should bow.

And then there are those "children of the gods" who have powers that come naturally and lord over tribes alongside their parents until daddy is defeated by a band of adventurers or another "god"'s followers, which then trigger all the hatred of the tribesmen for that cast of privileged *******s who then are sent in exile, roaming the land until they can join a far away tribe where nobody associate their heritage with tyranny, instead seeing them as useful "shamans". Their own children get the same gift as them, albeit more diluted.

And then there are those weird sages that are using all kind of accessories to weaken reality and emulate the gods, most of the time being exactly your average witch-doctors or shamans with NO real link with the spirits but still putting on a show so the tribe feed him and he get plenty of time to do his experiments. Sometime, said experiments go wrong and something unspeakable is unleashed... or the cavern explodes.

Nobody is really certain of anything and most of what every caster is doing is actually just plain useless ritual passed orally from one generation to the next, with a bit of added show for the rest of the tribe, to the point that even the casters themselves don't know what part is for show and what part is actual material, gestual or oral components of the spell.

Some tribes might rise fast, carried on the shoulders of a few powerful creatures, building the beginning of a civilisation with monoliths standing tall in worship of their "gods"... and would then fall hard when said "gods" either lose interest or is slained.
Others are still just hunter-gatherers, living in fear of monsters and spirits so dreadful that they try their best to keep a low profile, as doing otherwise is being enslaved or killed or eaten.

The players become true power dealers and power breakers... and they are not the exception : this is a time of turmoils, with the old ways being challenged and the cards of power being shuffled back constantly. Mortals are pawns of their gods but since said gods are far less powerful that the "real" gods of most D&D setting, mortals aren't helpless pawns : they can challenge the gods through cunning and feat of strength, this without leaving their own world which, because everyone is travelling on foot, is suddenly a lot bigger.