Vampires don't get an afterlife...

[thereaper]

So why do the vampires want to help Hel accomplish her plan?

[Peelee]

So why do the vampires want to help Hel accomplish her plan?

Because they can Gate over to the afterlife.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So why do the vampires want to help Hel accomplish her plan?

Option 1: because they don't currently have free will - they are thralls of Greg, who wants to help Hel.

Option 2: because Greg & Hel have promised to get them out of the world before it is unmade with a Gate spell.

GW

[thereaper]

I don't think he can cast Gate, though.

Then again, in his case, he might not care, as long as the dwarves suffer.

But are we sure the others are thralls? They don't behave anything like Durkon* did as one.

[factotum]

A vampire spawn is under the control of the vampire who sired them until that vampire is destroyed. That's what the rules say. There is no caveat there, and no limit to how many spawn a vampire can have under their control at any time. So, all these guys are under the control of Durkula, since he (and other vampires already under his control) created them.

[Chei]

They shouldn't need Gate. Plane Shift ought to work just fine.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think he can cast Gate, though.

He can cast whatever this is, which is enough to get him and a bunch of others out of the way.

no limit to how many spawn a vampire can have under their control at any time.

Nitpick: they are limited to twice their HD in vampire slaves. But those vampires can control their own slaves, so in practice there is no limit - but orders might take a while to trickle down the command system.

Grey Wolf

[137beth]

I forget, when did we learn that OOTS vampires don’t get an afterlife?

[Monday]

I forget, when did we learn that OOTS vampires don’t get an afterlife?

The Giant mentioned it in a post on these forums sometime back. I'll go look through the index for a link, but I wouldn't be surprised if I get beaten to it by an eldritch fruit...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I forget, when did we learn that OOTS vampires don’t get an afterlife?

I extrapolate it from the fact Celia doesn't get an afterlife. Both Celia and Greg are sort of like elemental spirits - Celia of Wind, Greg of Negative Energy. YMMV on whether you find this argument persuasive, mind you.

Grey Wolf

[thereaper]

A vampire spawn is under the control of the vampire who sired them until that vampire is destroyed. That's what the rules say. There is no caveat there, and no limit to how many spawn a vampire can have under their control at any time. So, all these guys are under the control of Durkula, since he (and other vampires already under his control) created them.

Unless they release them, as Nergal said he would do to Durkon*. Given the difference in behavior, it seems more likely to me than not that they aren't thralls.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Unless they release them, as Nergal said he would do to Durkon*. Given the difference in behavior, it seems more likely to me than not that they aren't thralls.

Hard to say, actually. We know from Greg's time as Malack's thrall that he was capable of independent action. The only real indication of thralldom was his rather childish attitude - an attitude not that different from that of the Exexarch vampire offended at a door not opening.

On the other paw, the other two vampires following Greg do seem free-willed, down to and including disagreeing with the plans. I suppose Greg could have released the weaker vampires and kept the more powerful one as a thrall because if he turned out to not want Hel to win, he is the only one that might give him trouble.

Grey Wolf

[ti'esar]

The Exarch seems way too fixated on the living Gontor's perceived failings to be a thrall, IMO.

[Mad Humanist]

Hard to say, actually. We know from Greg's time as Malack's thrall that he was capable of independent action. The only real indication of thralldom was his rather childish attitude - an attitude not that different from that of the Exexarch vampire offended at a door not opening.

Malack wanted children. Perhaps that made Durkula more childish.

[alwaysbebatman]

He straight-out said that was no longer what he was looking for as he was creating Durkon*.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Malack wanted children. Perhaps that made Durkula more childish.

Ah. Excellent point. As indeed we saw with Tsukiko, the master can significantly influence the attitude of an undead thrall. Therefore it follows that Greg, who probably needs partners in crime, has thralls that act more independent.

He straight-out said that was no longer what he was looking for as he was creating Durkon*.

IIRC, he said he would eventually release him to get Durkon back, but it felt like he expected a period of "growing up" first.

GW

[lothos]

So I'm also curious about how we know for sure they don't get an afterlife, though it would make sense to me that they do not, my thinking is roughly along the lines of Grey Wolf's point about Celia. I'd love to know if it's definitly confirmed by word of Rich though.

Regarding the thrall thing... I assume that Durkon* does not need to control any thalls he makes of drawves. I assume that any dwarf who becomes a vampire gets a negative energy spirit put in it's head by Hel and is therefore devoted to her, not withstanding Durkon*'s speech at the godsmoot about how he chooses to worship Hel. I can't see Hel creating a negative energy spirit that isn't devoted to her.

As far as I can see it, Hel also gets to create the negative energy spirit for any create that gets vamped where the formerly living creature was a worshiper of the northern gods, but even if that's not the case, It seems clear to me that would be the case at least for dwarves.

So I had assumed that Durkon* and the other ex-dwarf vampires would keep as thralls anyone they vamp who is not a dwarf, such as the ex-goliath that was guarding the godsmoot temple entrance. They wouldn't need to keep any vampire as a thrall who had a spirit placed there by Hel. Between them, that should be more than enough hit dice to thrall-ify any others they need to.

EDIT: Note that that ex-Goliath says in panel 4 of 1026 "Master said to smash you for Hel !". I didn't see any of the other vampires talk like they were obeying their master.

EDIT2: Though on looking at 1087, the other 2 ex-dwarf vampires call him "Master" then... so maybe they ARE thralls, or maybe they just call him master because he is the high priest.

[Synesthesy]

So I'm also curious about how we know for sure they don't get an afterlife, though it would make sense to me that they do not, my thinking is roughly along the lines of Grey Wolf's point about Celia. I'd love to know if it's definitly confirmed by word of Rich though.

When Durkon said that he wanted to resurrect Malack, Malack answered that it was a complicated way to annihilate him, not to kill him.

Later, Tarquin's psion friend, right before destroying Nale's body, said that Malack was gone forever.

In a world where you can plane shift to afterlife (just because it seems that you can't ressurrect undead), that means that vampire doesn't get an afterlife at all. Or at least, it was what I understood.

[wumpus]

Option 1: because they don't currently have free will - they are thralls of Greg, who wants to help Hel.

Option 2: because Greg & Hel have promised to get them out of the world before it is unmade with a Gate spell.

GW

I was fairly sure nobody has touched 17th level (needed to cast gate). Thanks to the ECL for vampires, I can't see Greg hitting it no matter how high a level he has killed. Which means he has to trust Hel.

While Greg pretty much was "born yesterday", he has nearly a life's experience thanks to Durkon. Don't count on him having a separate agenda (he already appears to want to "beat Roy" above and beyond what is needed for the plan).

[Chei]

I was fairly sure nobody has touched 17th level (needed to cast gate). Thanks to the ECL for vampires, I can't see Greg hitting it no matter how high a level he has killed. Which means he has to trust Hel.

While Greg pretty much was "born yesterday", he has nearly a life's experience thanks to Durkon. Don't count on him having a separate agenda (he already appears to want to "beat Roy" above and beyond what is needed for the plan).

Plane Shift is a level 5 cleric spell. Durkon* and at least one more member of his posse can cast it. Plane Shift can shift multiple creatures, like a Teleport spell. No Gate needed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was fairly sure nobody has touched 17th level (needed to cast gate).

I've linked to a strip in which Durkon casts a spell that opens a gate which allows you to change planes. If that is technically not a Gate spell, then I am wrong only in terminology. I don't care what the spell is called, only that if he needs to, Greg can use the same spell Durkon already used to escape the world's destruction and hide in whichever plane he wants (presumably not the Salad Ranch Dressing plane, mind you).

GW

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Gate? What Gate?

This conversation makes me wonder if the MitD would enjoy the Demiplane of Salad Ranch Dressing.

[Goblin_Priest]

I've linked to a strip in which Durkon casts a spell that opens a gate which allows you to change planes. If that is technically not a Gate spell, then I am wrong only in terminology. I don't care what the spell is called, only that if he needs to, Greg can use the same spell Durkon already used to escape the world's destruction and hide in whichever plane he wants (presumably not the Salad Ranch Dressing plane, mind you).

GW

Yea, no kidding, how the hell dud Durkon pull that off!? I wouldn't imagine Plane Shift as having that visual effect, there's no visible material focus, though I guess it respects the 5d100 miles from destination.

[Chei]

Yea, no kidding, how the hell dud Durkon pull that off!? I wouldn't imagine Plane Shift as having that visual effect, there's no visible material focus, though I guess it respects the 5d100 miles from destination.

It is Plane Shift. It looks like what Z used to get V to that plane in the first place. The divine Plane Shift spell is even easier to cast than the arcane one (5 versus 7), and it's on the standard cleric spell list.

We have seen two characters cast Gate: Redcloak and Dorukan. When Redcloak cast it in 833, it was both noticeably larger and cast at a distance from the caster, as the spell allows.

Durkon and the rest probably weren't touching hands for obvious art reasons re: clutter on the page. It's enough to know they got back.

Also, I went through all this effort already before I noticed, but here's Roy in 834 explaining the difficulties of targeting a Plane Shift spell, in obvious reference to Durkon's trip to pick up V.

[Kish]

Regarding the thrall thing... I assume that Durkon* does not need to control any thalls he makes of drawves. I assume that any dwarf who becomes a vampire gets a negative energy spirit put in it's head by Hel and is therefore devoted to her, not withstanding Durkon*'s speech at the godsmoot about how he chooses to worship Hel. I can't see Hel creating a negative energy spirit that isn't devoted to her.

I disagree because I think you're viewing the process of creating a new spirit as far more specific and controlled than it actually is. Just as Odin cannot guarantee every Northener will be devoted to him even if he crafts their souls, Hel can expect devotion, can attempt to compel devotion, but cannot guarantee even a trace of loyalty. If you turn someone into a vampire and it turns out a dark mirror of that person hates all the gods, then Hel is out of luck.

[Goblin_Priest]

It is Plane Shift. It looks like what Z used to get V to that plane in the first place. The divine Plane Shift spell is even easier to cast than the arcane one (5 versus 7), and it's on the standard cleric spell list.

We have seen two characters cast Gate: Redcloak and Dorukan. When Redcloak cast it in 833, it was both noticeably larger and cast at a distance from the caster, as the spell allows.

Durkon and the rest probably weren't touching hands for obvious art reasons re: clutter on the page. It's enough to know they got back.

Also, I went through all this effort already before I noticed, but here's Roy in 834 explaining the difficulties of targeting a Plane Shift spell, in obvious reference to Durkon's trip to pick up V.

Good catch, this answers it.

[Alcore]

Ah. Excellent point. As indeed we saw with Tsukiko, the master can significantly influence the attitude of an undead thrall. Therefore it follows that Greg, who probably needs partners in crime, has thralls that act more independent.
GW

I always felt the wight's were humoring her. With the exception of Boots they all seemed level headed, only repeating her orders back to her in her childish phrasing. With decent mental abilities "pairing up" and "blow our safety whistle" should seem like sound ideas even for them.


She made one "newborn" in front of us who made one outburst at creation like greg. But we never saw him interact after that so we don't know. Greg, being a vampire, could be a special instance from wights.