Belkar's Worst Day?

[alwaysbebatman]

So... I imagine this has already been talked about a lot, I apologize if I'm rehashing old debates. But with today's revelation, it seems very likely to be right around the corner. So....

What do you think Belkar's worst day even looks like? Or is that only relevant if the sophont being vampirized isn't already evil?

I seem to recall Vampires being always-CE, but the SRD says "Any Evil"... Probably memories from 1st ed. I presume from the very LE outlook of Durkon and co that the Law/Chaos axis is left untouched.

So I'm guessing Belkar and Belkar* would be the same alignment, although Belkar Classic may be wandering northward toward the CN border.

Would Belkar Classic even be chained like Durkon? Or would the two of them just hang out in his head together, chilling?

I imagine most of these speculations have been proposed in the past, but I'm curious what people think now.

[Potatomade]

Is it "morally worst day," or "worst day according to the victim?" Because if it's the second one, I imagine it's sometime during his sickness following the Mark of Justice. Or one of the days where he feels morally conflicted (even a twinge), like with the gnome shopkeeper. I imagine he feels worst when he's impotent, whether by physical ailment or internal conflict.

If it's morally, I imagine there really wouldn't be much of a difference with normal Belkar, or if there is, it'd be ramped up to 11, with no stop in the bloodshed even for a wisecrack.

[alwaysbebatman]

Yeah, the first one seems intriguing, but not like the sort of thing that would be especially useful for creating a fearsome Vampire.

And yeah, the second one sounds like "Belkar on every day, minus momentary pangs of empathy and regret that could be counted on one hand."

Could such a creature genuinely ally with the Order out of sheer self interest, as Durkon* pretended to?

[Potatomade]

Probably so, though it would have to break free from its master somehow. Self-willed undead, and all that, so self-interest is definitely on the table. I doubt it would even be that hard of a sell to the Order, considering none of them seem to be aware of Belkar's subtle perspective changes. For them it would be business as usual. They might keep a close eye on Belkar* just to be sure, but they're doing that with living Belkar anyway.

[alwaysbebatman]

Yeah, I can kinda see that, but that kind of thinking burned them once before with Durkon*...

I just dunno.

[mouser9169]

I said something about this in another thread somewhere. A prolonged Belkar vampirization would be a retread of plot. However, I could see a short term conversation between esssentially Belkar Classic and New Belkar in a campground setting, in which the New Belkar breaks free of control by defeating his old demons.

[Chei]

I believe that a vampire Belkar would be legitimately pretending to have character development, rather than actually beginning to have empathy. Like Durkon*, he'd see the memories Belkar had that set him on this new path, and take them at face value rather than the actual internalization Belkar began to achieve.

As for his worst day, I think we've possibly actually seen it. I'd make a case that it was Durkon's death, since that's the only day other than hallucination!Shojo that Belkar was challenged emotionally in ways he can't process by hurting someone.

[alwaysbebatman]

I said something about this in another thread somewhere. A prolonged Belkar vampirization would be a retread of plot.

Yeah, I see the negatives.

It's just that, knowing now that Durkon* has the Insta-Vamp spell, combined with the wording of the Oracle's prophecies about Belkar's mortality...

It adds up to an intriguing possibility.

[Synesthesy]

Belkar worst day (at least, based on what we saw about him in the main comic and extra material) should be the day he killed the oracle. Based on that experience, the real Belkar started his own growth (in my opinion, he started growing after getting the cat, but the epiphany is still really important).

That was not the first time Belkar saw the conseguences of his actions: he was put in jail more than once, for example. But this time was different, as there was no hope for escape.
What did Belkar feel? Fear and hate for a system that doesn't leave him be and that have so much power over him, and the need to change to survive without changing. One famous book said: "If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change". Belkar did that.

Count Belkula would then focus on the fear and hate, but without the needing to survive as a vampire is much stronger then a normal halfling. I think he'll be an anarchist, he won't follow the order of any god or society. But he'll still focus on his problem, the lack of freedom that led him to problem in the previous life. Instead of killing people nobody like (as Belkar did), he'll want to kill who rule the system. He'll become a fighter for freedom in an antihero way. People like Tarquin, who rule their kingdoms with iron fist without regarding to personal freedom would be his worst enemies. And people won't see him as evil as the Belkar of old that killed without reason.

Oh, and probably Count Belkula would still be loyal to Roy, as Roy has always helped Belkar, and as Xykon and Redcloack are enemies of the vampire.

[Fyraltari]

I mostly agree with Synesthesy that Belkar* would become an anarchist but not on who his ennemies would be.

The Saphire Guard and Shojo are the one who put the mark of justice on him and Roy and the Order are the one who always tried to stop him from acting on his own immediate impulses, who embody this authority he would (hypothetically) come to loathe while Tarquin only ever puthim in a gladatorial ring where he could do pretty much whatever he pleased. So I think his goal would be to sow chaos and devestation to the good-aligned societies. But I don't think he would be as talented at it than Durkula.

[grandpheonix]

I think Belkar worst day, when emotionally he was the most angry with the world, and yeah, not being able to be all stabby stabby would be when Durkon was killed in the pyramid. He even came back super depressed after.

[KarlMarx]

That day was also one when Belkar, more than any other, saw an act that he didn't really believe possible--a Good Guy getting himself martyred not to save innocents, but a mass murderer, because it was the right thing to do for a friend. That, in turn, unmoored his entire viewpoint as those events unfolded, doubling the confusion and thus the trauma of Durkon's death.

[unbeliever536]

So... I imagine this has already been talked about a lot, I apologize if I'm rehashing old debates. But with today's revelation, it seems very likely to be right around the corner. So....

What do you think Belkar's worst day even looks like? Or is that only relevant if the sophont being vampirized isn't already evil?

I seem to recall Vampires being always-CE, but the SRD says "Any Evil"... Probably memories from 1st ed. I presume from the very LE outlook of Durkon and co that the Law/Chaos axis is left untouched.

So I'm guessing Belkar and Belkar* would be the same alignment, although Belkar Classic may be wandering northward toward the CN border.

Would Belkar Classic even be chained like Durkon? Or would the two of them just hang out in his head together, chilling?

I imagine most of these speculations have been proposed in the past, but I'm curious what people think now.

"Belkar's worst day" in the vampirization sense is probably "the thing that Belkar most wants revenge for". As to what that is ... my guess is something related to the Mark of Justice, not Durkon's death. I don't think Belkar wants revenge for Durkon's death so much as he wants Durkon back.

[Quartz]

However, I could see a short term conversation between esssentially Belkar Classic and New Belkar in a campground setting, in which the New Belkar breaks free of control by defeating his old demons.

We've had that too.

[hamishspence]

The Saphire Guard and Shojo are the one who put the mark of justice on him and Roy and the Order are the one who always tried to stop him from acting on his own immediate impulses, who embody this authority he would (hypothetically) come to loathe while Tarquin only ever puthim in a gladatorial ring where he could do pretty much whatever he pleased.

Belkar likes Shojo though - for the way he makes fun of Roy, and the way he treats the paladins of the Sapphire Guard (making them do petty chores like cleaning out litterboxes).

I would suggest that the Oracle, for baiting him into triggering the Mark, is the being he hates the most. Possibly followed by Malack or Durkula.

[RatElemental]

Belkar doesn't even remember that the Oracle tricked him, or that he set off the mark at all though.

[hamishspence]

Fair enough - that example would only apply if a vampire drained him after the Mark went off but before he'd left Sunken Valley.

[Fyraltari]

Belkar likes Shojo though - for the way he makes fun of Roy, and the way he treats the paladins of the Sapphire Guard (making them do petty chores like cleaning out litterboxes).

And Durkon loves the dwarven homelands with all of his heart. Liking someone does not mean you can't resent them and spirits of pure negative energy have a tendancy to focus on the bad stuff for some reason.
Though Shojo is dead and the Azurites are at their all time low what with the hobgoblins dancing on the graves of the paladins, so he might take his aggression on just any random do-gooders he comes across.

[martianmister]

Probably this one.

[Lexible]

Or is that only relevant if the sophont being vampirized isn't already evil?

Is that a 1st edition Traveler reference?!?

[alwaysbebatman]

Not an intentional one. I have no idea where I picked up "sophont" and have used it interchangeably with "sapient being" as far back as I can recall. I had no idea it was a neologism till your question prompted me to google it.

[RatElemental]

They use it a lot in Schlock Mercenary, and it's a useful word besides. I say we go ahead and let it enter the common vernacular.

[Nightcanon]

Probably this one.

He wasn't enjoying that strip very much, but having declared himself a Sexy, Shoeless God of War in 610, from 611 onwards he's probably having as much fun as, well, as the previous time he declared himself a Sexy Shoeless God of War...

[alwaysbebatman]

Yep. It was a momentary setback, that A) led him to a new understanding if himself and B) he doesn't remember at all who's to blame for it.

[a1chemi]

So... I imagine this has already been talked about a lot, I apologize if I'm rehashing old debates. But with today's revelation, it seems very likely to be right around the corner. So....

What do you think Belkar's worst day even looks like? Or is that only relevant if the sophont being vampirized isn't already evil?

I seem to recall Vampires being always-CE, but the SRD says "Any Evil"... Probably memories from 1st ed. I presume from the very LE outlook of Durkon and co that the Law/Chaos axis is left untouched.

So I'm guessing Belkar and Belkar* would be the same alignment, although Belkar Classic may be wandering northward toward the CN border.

Would Belkar Classic even be chained like Durkon? Or would the two of them just hang out in his head together, chilling?

I imagine most of these speculations have been proposed in the past, but I'm curious what people think now.

As much as we all want the Belkster around forever, I take issue with the entire premise. In that same strip, the Oracle says twice that Belkar "isn't long for this world". While not an official prophesy, he has no reason to lie since he doesn't think Roy is going to remember it.

The precisely worded official prophesy is clearly meant to cement the earlier remarks, not provide a workaround for Belkar dying but coming back anyway.

His allusions to the topic in their previous encounter are pretty clear as well. Belkar is going to die permanently an no longer be on this world; living, undead, or otherwise.

[Peelee]

While not an official prophesy, he has no reason to lie since he doesn't think Roy is going to remember it.

The precisely worded official prophesy

What makes a prophecy unofficial?

I purport that all prophecies are official. If they weren't, then the would be no purpose to the memory charm. The only thing the green glowy speech baloon does is allow memory of the prophecy to pass through the memory charm.

[alwaysbebatman]

The Oracle makes four prophecies (presumably) about Belkar's death. Two of them he makes with Roy and Belkar both present, and knowing neither of them will remember it. The reason the Oracle claims he even brings it up is to explain the memory charm. This is dubious from the start, as it is a very BAD example.

The Oracle says that the memory charm is so that if he let's something slip, it won't influence things. To put it another way, his prophecies always come true, but they have to be worded precisely so that they aren't self defeating. Belkar dying soon would NOT be a self-defeating prophecy: just knowing death is coming soon wouldn't do anything to help Belkar avoid it...

So, why DOES the Oracle make the two prophecies? I think he's interested in their reaction. Because their reactions are interesting! Roy seems horrified, even though he's supposed to kinda HATE Belkar. Belkar seems uninterested, even though he IS Belkar.

The wording of both of the first two prophecies are vague enough to be meaningless.

The third prophecy is made with only Roy present, and the Oracle claims to believe (incorrectly) that Roy will forget that part. But he could very easily know better, and be lying about thinking that the memory charm will work.

The fourth prophecy is "official," by which I merely mean that it's that type of prophecy Roy would be expected to still remember if the memory charm had worked, and so it's the only prophecy that the Oracle claims to believe Roy will remember.

The third and fourth prophecies are worded precisely enough that they HAVE to mean SOMETHING, but he never actually comes out and says what he is implying: that Belkar will soon permanently die.

From ALL of that, what do we know for sure?

1) We know for sure (maybe?) that there is a reason for Roy to know (or believe) that Belkar will die soon. And a reason that the Oracle would WANT him to know. Since Roy is the only one who ever remembered any of the prophecies, his knowing this is the point of them. Why, though? It seems weird, since there's never been much he could DO with the knowledge. But it would be even weirder for the Oracle to have told him on a whim.

2) We know for sure that the exact words of the Oracle's prophecies will come true: Belkar will leave this world, and will permanently stop breathing.

Do those prophecies mean what they seem to mean? Maybe, but why dance around the issue with four different euphemisms UNLESS with the intent to mislead? Habit?

[Peelee]

Belkar dying soon would NOT be a self-defeating prophecy: just knowing death is coming soon wouldn't do anything to help Belkar avoid it...

Objection! Misstates evidence. I direct counsel to Exhibit A. Belkar is a high-level adventurer, and it is not outside the realm of possibility he could arrange a similar contingency, or any other that may exist in a world that can magically reverse death, should he have knowledge of his impending doom.

[Kish]

Belkar dying soon, if Belkar knew about it, would be a self-defeating prophecy if, and only if, Belkar knowing he would die soon led to him taking actions that avoided him dying.

Or to put it another way: Belkar dying, and knowing that he's going to, cannot be a self-defeating prophecy if the OotS world will bend itself into whatever contortions are necessary to make a prophecy come true regardless of what anyone does. It could be if the prophecy instead looks at "this is what people are going to do and what knowledge they're going to act on," and one of those things that people act or don't act on is Belkar's lack of knowledge of the prophecy.

Just like any other aspect of the story changing. Saying "Just knowing death is coming soon wouldn't help Belkar avoid it," in the absence of knowledge of what will lead to Belkar's death, is just the same as saying, e.g., "Haley's having gotten lost on the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing when they were retrieving Vaarsuvius and no longer being with the Order wouldn't help Belkar avoid death."

[alwaysbebatman]

@PeeLee: Well, the first step would be for Belkar to care about the prediction much. He doesn't remember them, but when he heard the first two prophecies about his death, his reaction seemed mostly quizzical. Did he fail his "Understand Implication" check? Or is he stoic about death?: "when your number comes up, oh well!"

@Kish: Sure, it's a possibility that the Oracle's prophecy magic reshapes probability to create the outcome foreseen. But if that were so, why does he need the memory charm?

It seems more likely to me that the Oracle sees what will happen based on what all of the free-willed creatures involved will choose based on their natures and their state of knowledge, but with the caveat that the prophecy has to be worded in this precise way, or else they will have a different state of knowledge and make different choices. Ie, the prophecy includes itself.