I just now realized that Miko has access to exactly one form of healing.

[Lacuna Caster]

ETA:
Let me put it another way.There are two measurable alignments to every soul, "property you can measure":
1) Actual alignment. This can be measured via a magic spell, but can be occluded in many ways, some magical, some mundane
2) Self-professed alignment. This can be measured by asking, but can be occluded in many ways, some magical, some mundane...

But the afterlife clearly doesn't care about the alignment that a person thinks they have. The ostensible purpose of the audit process is to look objectively at their prior history of moral/ethical behaviour and evaluate their actual alignment on that basis. But you can evaluate their actual alignment with two spells!

Sure, hiding your alignment is certainly possible, but if we're imagining that petitioners have reasonable access to those kinds of class features, what's to stop them pulling out Charm Person or +20 bluff checks, and jinxing the audit process? The tiny minority of individuals with the wherewithal to do that could probably be set aside for separate screening.


Alternatively, one could imagine the way that the alignment system works is precisely because an immense celestial bureaucracy monitors your every word, thought and deed and evaluates your performance down to the nearest millinazi... but in that case, the auditors running the show would already know what you are when you die. Same difference.

.

[Kish]

Going back to what started the contention in question:

I mean, the premise of the alignment system is that the universe constantly monitors your activities 24/7 and pronounces upon their ethical and moral worthiness as a kind of automatic background process-

It is apparent that that is not, in fact, the case in OotS. A paladin can act like a borderline fascist and tell someone who asks him for moral counseling, "It is important to remember simply that hobgoblins are usually Evil, and those who may not be so technically still worship an Evil God, or defend an Evil social order, or grow food for Evil warriors, or give birth to Evil children. It is enough for is to destroy their Evil society, and let any who survive reflect on the path of wickedness. Never hesitate to punish Evil, or support for Evil, or tolerance for Evil," and still not Fall, even though at that point he's only Lawful Good in his own mind and is flaunting his "I'm really Lawful Evil!" flag every time he opens his mouth, until he acts in a way that draws TheUniverse's negative attention.

You can say you don't like that. You can even say that makes OotS "not D&D." But flatly denying that it's the case in OotS seems an approach guaranteed to result in contention--of the "uh, why you say this obviously wrong thing?" variety. Based on what's shown in the comic, it seems pretty clear that if Gin-Jun had been struck by lightning and killed just after Miko asked her question, he would have been sent to Celestia, where a deva would have reviewed his actions, both direct and indirect, and told him that he was going to the Nine Hells. Pontificating about how that goes against the very premise of D&D and can't be the case serves no purpose.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, one reason why you might need auditors is because determining alignments isn’t enough to determine the correct plane someone should end up on. There are, after all, more planes than alignments, so you need someone to figure out if you end up in either Celestia, Arcadia, or Bytopia.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, one reason why you might need auditors is because determining alignments isn’t enough to determine the correct plane someone should end up on. There are, after all, more planes than alignments, so you need someone to figure out if you end up in either Celestia, Arcadia, or Bytopia.

That might be the case, but the point remains that the Deva told Roy there was a very real possibility he might be shunted to the Neutral Good afterlife for his Chaotic actions in pursue of a Legal obligations, or to the True Neutral one if Roy hadn't gone back to rescue Elan after Roy abandoned him to the bandits, so it is not just picking which subset of the plane you best fit to.

GW

[Fyraltari]

Itmight also be that the deva had already made her mind but wanted to both explain the decision to Roy and see how conscious of his own failings via an audit, and she only did that because she is a being of pure law and GOOD who would decide to sacrifice part of her time so that the souls in her care would understand in depth the decision made and not feel opressed by an arbitrary system. We have not seen what Nale judgment looked like but it entirely possible that it was a 2-seconds "You go there, you go there and you go there" processing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Itmight also be that the deva had already made her mind

That would require her to lie repeatedly about the purpose of the review, which seems quite unlikely for a deva.

GW

[Kish]

She did lie. He asked if the blood oath wouldn't bind him to the mortal plane, and she said, "If we examine your life and find you worthy of entering the Celestial Realms, when you are raised and subsequently killed--and clear up this Blood Oath nonsense--you'll be ready to ascend." She didn't mention "oh, actually, you can ascend right now despite the Blood Oath" until his review was over. At best, she evaded and stonewalled his question.

So I think if she saw some moral benefit in so doing, she wouldn't hesitate to lie, or at least parse words as finely at Obi-Wan Kenobi ever did. Not that I can see much benefit in hiding the fact that she knew at the beginning of the interview what the result would be if that was the case, and she's quite the actor if her shock at his association with Belkar was entirely faked.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think using socratic irony makes you lose browny points with the forces of Law and good.

Nothing in her attitude makes it look like Roy's questionnable choice of business partners was new to her to my eyes. She just strongly disapprove of it.

[dps]

@Kish: That seems to be an argument that the story's events and logic are supposed to be self-justifying just by being there. No?

I wouldn't say that (and I can't answer for Kish in any event), but I would say that the story's events and logic are supposed to be internally consistent, and that we should take what is shown at face value unless we have good reason not to. And clearly, taking what is shown at face value, the recently deceased are judged as to which afterlife they go to, at least for those who are at least nominally LG.

Maybe that's not consistent with standard DnD rules, but the comic moved beyond strict adherence to DnD rules a long time ago.

[hroþila]

She did lie. He asked if the blood oath wouldn't bind him to the mortal plane, and she said, "If we examine your life and find you worthy of entering the Celestial Realms, when you are raised and subsequently killed--and clear up this Blood Oath nonsense--you'll be ready to ascend." She didn't mention "oh, actually, you can ascend right now despite the Blood Oath" until his review was over. At best, she evaded and stonewalled his question.

Maybe she said that before a look at Roy's dossier revealed he had died trying to fulfill his oath.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe she said that before a look at Roy's dossier revealed he had died trying to fulfill his oath.

That's what I assumed - that she took Roy at his word that his situation was identical to that of his father, and that he too was going to be stuck on the cloud. Then it turned out Roy was wrong, and that extenuating circumstances applied and made the blood oath not stop him from entering heaven (although I suspect that he'd only be able to go up so far before the blood oath was resolved - i.e. his soul is still attached to the living world)

Grey Wolf

[Witty Username]

Showing kindness towards any being. Even Belkar's done that.

ETA: I take that back: she did show genuine feeling for Windstriker at the end. Another commanality between her and Belkar, actually. Able to forge a connection with a companion animal, but not with fellow sapient beings.

wow, I guess Lord Shojo's liver will thank me for that!

not necessarily kindness but definitive empathy, that and this page seems to cover the full Miko package looking back on it.

disclaimer: I am having fun.

[Meijin]

I think where she ends up is meant to be a bit ambiguous from the text. From my interpretation of her actions/how I would rule it, just before death she committed a major act to violate her LG code and explicitly died without atonement, either from a spell or even from just feeling at all sorry or realizing she may have been wrong. To me, that's a perfect candidate for an evil-aligned afterlife.

[Kish]

I would think a perfect candidate for an evil-aligned afterlife would be someone who wrote down Something Evil on their character sheet, personally.

[factotum]

she committed a major act to violate her LG code and explicitly died without atonement

There is no "LG code" to violate--even LG people have free will. Miko violated the *Paladin* code, which is far stricter and easier to break than the requirements to be LG. Yes, killing a defenceless old man is unquestionably an Evil act (even if done for the best of reasons), but does one Evil act--even a really, really bad one--counteract a lifetime of doing Good? And Miko had to have been doing Good all her life, because Paladins can't really do anything else without Falling. You kind of think if she'd Fallen at some point before she wouldn't have been so obsessed with thinking she was the chosen of the Twelve Gods.

[hamishspence]

There is no "LG code" to violate--even LG people have free will. Miko violated the *Paladin* code, which is far stricter and easier to break than the requirements to be LG. Yes, killing a defenceless old man is unquestionably an Evil act (even if done for the best of reasons), but does one Evil act--even a really, really bad one--counteract a lifetime of doing Good?

The DMG does suggest that one Good act (full repentance) can counteract a lifetime of doing Evil - in its "exceptions" bit under alignment change.

So why not one Evil act countering a lifetime of "doing Good"? Especially if her attitude was wrong all the way through? Not necessarily enough to give her an "evil-aligned afterlife" - but maybe a "neutral-aligned afterlife"?

A paladin can act like a borderline fascist and tell someone who asks him for moral counseling, "It is important to remember simply that hobgoblins are usually Evil, and those who may not be so technically still worship an Evil God, or defend an Evil social order, or grow food for Evil warriors, or give birth to Evil children. It is enough for is to destroy their Evil society, and let any who survive reflect on the path of wickedness. Never hesitate to punish Evil, or support for Evil, or tolerance for Evil," and still not Fall, even though at that point he's only Lawful Good in his own mind and is flaunting his "I'm really Lawful Evil!" flag every time he opens his mouth, until he acts in a way that draws TheUniverse's negative attention.

You can say you don't like that. You can even say that makes OotS "not D&D." But flatly denying that it's the case in OotS seems an approach guaranteed to result in contention--of the "uh, why you say this obviously wrong thing?" variety. Based on what's shown in the comic, it seems pretty clear that if Gin-Jun had been struck by lightning and killed just after Miko asked her question, he would have been sent to Celestia, where a deva would have reviewed his actions, both direct and indirect, and told him that he was going to the Nine Hells.

Using this principle - and, in this case, taking into account that Miko has already committed her Fall-Worthy act - then if she's held to a similar standard that it's suggested Gin-Jun be held to - then it does seem like she wouldn't get into the Good afterlives at least. She might possibly be a little better than Gin-Jun (though her POV in Start of Darkness foreword section suggests not much better) - but it sounds like that's not enough to get her to any of the Upper Planes at least.

[Kish]

If we're bringing in the Start of Darkness foreword, there are issues of consistency, too.

i.e.: I can't see that version of Miko hesitating for a second to slaughter Belkar in the throne room, the Order for defending him, Shojo for telling her not to, Hinjo for making jokes with criminals, Durkon for suggesting she should listen to him explaining why her target wasn't evil, the Wooden Inn staff for not knowing who removed the mattress tag...

Or maybe, prequel forewords aside, in the actual comic, Redcloak's knowledge of the Order is limited to approximately "the fighter had some kind of...revenge storyline?" rather than "they have a book dedicated to how they're the protagonists," and Miko did not spend her paladin career as a complete psychopath.

In terms of the morals he expresses, Gin-Jun was far worse than In-Comic Miko (was, in fact, a great deal like Foreword-Writing Miko, differing only in needing to be legally compelled before he tried to enforce his brand of Good with his own sword rather than by giving orders to other people and standing back). He seems to have evaded Falling as long as he did entirely because Rich doesn't treat speaking as an "act" which can be an "evil act," even if that speaking consists of responding to a request for moral guidance by making a case for the philosophy of fascism, or making a sincere effort to compel an angel to destroy a hobgoblin settlement.

[dps]

The DMG does suggest that one Good act (full repentance) can counteract a lifetime of doing Evil - in its "exceptions" bit under alignment change.

So why not one Evil act countering a lifetime of "doing Good"? Especially if her attitude was wrong all the way through? Not necessarily enough to give her an "evil-aligned afterlife" - but maybe a "neutral-aligned afterlife"?

Sigh.

Because, as you pointed out, full repentance is in the "exceptions" bit. You do know the meaning of the word "exception", right?

[hamishspence]

Because, as you pointed out, full repentance is in the "exceptions" bit. You do know the meaning of the word "exception", right?

Atypical, unusual, not the norm. But Miko's not exactly a normal being - so her changing alignment instantly from Good to Neutral, is not that implausible - especially in the context of references to Miko:

"pushing at the boundaries of her alignment and what it means to be a paladin"

If we're bringing in the Start of Darkness foreword, there are issues of consistency, too.

i.e.: I can't see that version of Miko hesitating for a second to slaughter Belkar in the throne room, the Order for defending him, Shojo for telling her not to, Hinjo for making jokes with criminals, Durkon for suggesting she should listen to him explaining why her target wasn't evil, the Wooden Inn staff for not knowing who removed the mattress tag...

Or maybe, prequel forewords aside, in the actual comic, Redcloak's knowledge of the Order is limited to approximately "the fighter had some kind of...revenge storyline?" rather than "they have a book dedicated to how they're the protagonists," and Miko did not spend her paladin career as a complete psychopath.

In terms of the morals he expresses, Gin-Jun was far worse than In-Comic Miko (was, in fact, a great deal like Foreword-Writing Miko, differing only in needing to be legally compelled before he tried to enforce his brand of Good with his own sword rather than by giving orders to other people and standing back).

I can agree with the idea that "Foreword Miko" represents her close to the end of her career as a paladin, rather than at the beginning of it, at least.

[runeghost]

I can't remember the exact quote offhand, but word from the author is that the stickverse afterlife doesn't really allow for training or development and slowly turns all inhabitants into carbon copies of their alignment template. (Roy apparently only learned of his potential access to green sword-magic feats.)

The point of which is probably to make the afterlife sufficiently disappointing that 'not allowing world to end' serves more of a clear function. Again, though, intelligent outsiders with a variety of forms exist, so I'm not sure this is entirely consistent with either D&D in general or the strip itself.

I can't find the exact quote from the Giant either, but IIRC, it wasn't "that is how it works" but "for the sake of argument, go ahead and pretend that is how it works".

[Kish]

This is the quote and the thread.

[hamishspence]

This is the quote and the thread.

It does stress that Windstriker can visit Miko "as much as he is able" without her afterlife plane being the same as his home plane, at least:

Windstriker is not a dead soul, he is a living Celestial creature; he is not bound by the same rules. He needs a pass because he is in the service of the Twelve Gods and will likely be assigned to another paladin at some point, from whom he must get permission before going on a trip. If he were unemployed, he would be free to go to whatever plane he could find a way to travel to.

[Kish]

I just realized that that thread has the answer to the earlier argument over whether anyone would ever get near an afterlife that didn't fit their Official Universe-Determined Constantly-Tracked Alignment.

The deva only got "first look" because Lawful Good was the alignment Roy declared himself to be. It was his goal, and the review was to see if he had really met that goal. If he didn't, that would mean he actually had some other alignment,

[alwaysbebatman]

Interesting! Two points I want to make about that:

1) That completely disproves my interpretation that Soon strongly implied that they'd be escorting Miko somewhere other than the Celestial Realm. If nothing else, Miko certainly still believed she was LG at the time of her death. So she had to have gone to the base of the mountain to start with regardless of her eventual disposition. Mea culpa.

2) That also seems to disprove that other poster's belief that in D&D the universe always tracks from moment to moment an official alignment for every free-willed being with a soul.

However: there was a reason for that argument, and if it IS wrong, we should grapple with the implications, and alternate explanations for how spells and effects such as Detect Evil work if every soul does NOT, in fact, have true alignment as an inherent trait.

The explanation that pops into my mind immediately is the uncertainty principle. Like in quantum mechanics, the exact alignment is undetermined until an observer with the discernment to perceive such a thing observes a soul and judges its current alignment.

How bizarre. But that's the only explanation I can think of that fits what we currently know.

[factotum]

However: there was a reason for that argument, and if it IS wrong, we should grapple with the implications, and alternate explanations for how spells and effects such as Detect Evil work if every soul does NOT, in fact, have true alignment as an inherent trait.

The thing is, people have to have something intrinsic that makes them "Evil" or "Good", or else how would just being worn by Xykon for a few decades make his crown ping as Evil to a Detect Evil?

[alwaysbebatman]

It's not useful to start with an assertion that is definitively contradicted by the text or by WOG.

The souls of free-willed beings do NOT have "Evil" as a persistent, inherent trait. (Or if they do, the afterlife system completely ignores this for some reason.) The true alignment of a free-willed being is determined by and the consequence of the judgment of an Outsider of one's nominal alignment after death. That is Word of Giant.

So how can an object like Xykon's Crown be imbued with Evil? There are lots of possibilities. It could be because he is undead and animated by negative energy. It could be because of the evil magic he's used in proximity of the crown for years.

[Kish]

It could--the way I'm inclined to take it--be that while he'll still need to be reviewed when his soul finally arrives at the Abyss, the case that he's Chaotic Evil is overwhelmingly strong.

Pretty much exactly like it would work for a form of "it's because he's so evil" that doesn't involve the review process.

[alwaysbebatman]

It could--the way I'm inclined to take it--be that while he'll still need to be reviewed when his soul finally arrives at the Abyss, the case that he's Chaotic Evil is overwhelmingly strong.

Pretty much exactly like it would work for a form of "it's because he's so evil" that doesn't involve the review process.

How would that infect his crown?

Or do you mean that although most sentient beings don't have an actual aura of evil that could do that, some especially evil beings like Xykon do?

[hamishspence]

How would that infect his crown?

Book of Vile Darkness does suggest (pages 35-36) that exceptionally evil events can create a "tainting aura" that can contaminate objects involved in those events, causing those objects to ping on Detect Evil.

Xykon doing something exceptionally evil while wearing the crown, would explain why it detects as Evil, without being magical. It causing the wearer to detect as evil as well, is a bit homebrewey - would suggest that the spell is not quite as discriminating as it ought to be - but that could be because Miko is only scanning Roy for 2 rounds, not 3:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

allowing it to be "There is one evil aura in the area (of Roy and the ground near him)" - but not narrowing it down to the crown on his head.

[Doug Lampert]

Book of Vile Darkness does suggest (pages 35-36) that exceptionally evil events can create a "tainting aura" that can contaminate objects involved in those events, causing those objects to ping on Detect Evil.

Xykon doing something exceptionally evil while wearing the crown, would explain why it detects as Evil, without being magical. It causing the wearer to detect as evil as well, is a bit homebrewey - would suggest that the spell is not quite as discriminating as it ought to be - but that could be because Miko is only scanning Roy for 2 rounds, not 3:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

allowing it to be "There is one evil aura in the area (of Roy and the ground near him)" - but not narrowing it down to the crown on his head.

Even at three rounds, all it gives is number, location, and power of auras (not creatures, you detect auras).

The detect Evil spell NEVER detects a creature's alignment, it always and only detects auras, and aura isn't a game term, so we fall back on the dictionary, which has it as:

Aura (noun): the distinctive atmosphere or quality that seems to surround and be generated by a person, thing, or place.
"the ceremony retains an aura of mystery"
synonyms: atmosphere, ambience, air, quality, character, mood, feeling, feel, flavor, tone, tenor; More
a supposed emanation surrounding the body of a living creature, viewed by mystics, spiritualists, and some practitioners of complementary medicine as the essence of the individual, and allegedly discernible by people with special sensibilities.
any invisible emanation, especially a scent or odor.
"there was a faint aura of disinfectant"

Which doesn't sound to me AT ALL like it is precisely identifiable as to whether an aura comes from you, a spell cast on you, or an object you are carrying, or just the place you are standing.

The spell doesn't ever say in any way that it ever gives you a creature's alignment. At all. It always discusses the aura.

Even if it did give you the creature's location, so does blindsense, and it just gets within a 5' square. We have no evidence that aura sense is any more precise than this.