I just now realized that Miko has access to exactly one form of healing.

[Keltest]

Very well, I concede that point - so Arcadia logically exists and she could very well be headed there.

Based on that though, Roy's write-up was especially rough. Had he not gone back for Elan, he wouldn't have shifted two spots, he'd have shifted at least 4, despite a lifetime (well, adulthood) of dedication to law and good. I personally think what Miko did (actual murder) was far worse than what Roy did (reckless endangerment?), so I still envision a similarly precipitous shift as a result.

In other words, if Roy's one unrepentant act could have landed him in the TN bin, Miko's definitely should as well (at least.)

It should be noted that the Deva, being a being of pure Law and Good, does not actually get to decide whether Roy goes in the TN afterlife at all. It is entirely plausible that she would push him over there, only for him to be rejected for being too lawful and/or too good. Presumably one of the border afterlives would accept him were that the case.

[Kish]

I think attempting to derive a consistent map of who goes where from what the deva said to Roy+what Soon said to Miko is...well, it's an effort Rich hasn't made himself, let's put it that way.

[Hamste]

Very well, I concede that point - so Arcadia logically exists and she could very well be headed there.

Based on that though, Roy's write-up was especially rough. Had he not gone back for Elan, he wouldn't have shifted two spots, he'd have shifted at least 4, despite a lifetime (well, adulthood) of dedication to law and good. I personally think what Miko did (actual murder) was far worse than what Roy did (reckless endangerment?), so I still envision a similarly precipitous shift as a result.

In other words, if Roy's one unrepentant act could have landed him in the TN bin, Miko's definitely should as well (at least.)

It is also possible that when it gets chucked to another alignment the soul may still have to be checked and may be tossed into another bin after that until it reaches the right place. Other wise I imagine the evil section would purposefully toss a few of their evil souls into the good section purely just to annoy the forces of good or to make their after life just a little bit worse.

I would guess after he gets tossed in the TN bin they find he isn't true neutral and then tosses him into another after life that they feel is more appropriate until he finds what ever after life is most appropriate.

[Jasdoif]

It should be noted that the Deva, being a being of pure Law and Good, does not actually get to decide whether Roy goes in the TN afterlife at all. It is entirely plausible that she would push him over there, only for him to be rejected for being too lawful and/or too good. Presumably one of the border afterlives would accept him were that the case.

...I suddenly have a mental image of an auction for souls that "fail" two afterlife evaluations, where representatives from each outer plane bid for a soul based on how much worth they can extract from it based on how closely its alignment in life corresponds with the alignment of the plane.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is also possible that when it gets chucked to another alignment the soul may still have to be checked and may be tossed into another bin after that until it reaches the right place. Other wise I imagine the evil section would purposefully toss a few of their evil souls into the good section purely just to annoy the forces of good or to make their after life just a little bit worse.

I would guess after he gets tossed in the TN bin they find he isn't true neutral and then tosses him into another after life that they feel is more appropriate until he finds what ever after life is most appropriate.

As Kish said, we're so off the available evidence that this is all at best headcanon, but the way we see it start, it feels like a bit of a binary search (that's the one where you start at the middle, ask for "less or more" and keep halving until you find the right number). You start at 1 of the 9 possible alignments, the one you profess. They take a stab and, if you don't pass, they send you to their best guess. They do the same, and send you halfway if you again don't pass, and repeat until you find your niche plane that fits you perfectly.

GW

[Psyren]

It is also possible that when it gets chucked to another alignment the soul may still have to be checked and may be tossed into another bin after that until it reaches the right place. Other wise I imagine the evil section would purposefully toss a few of their evil souls into the good section purely just to annoy the forces of good or to make their after life just a little bit worse.

And waste all that quality torture time? Nah - and if souls can change alignment posthumously (which we'll probably find out with Eugene at some point), every moment they leave a soul at loose ends is a moment that it could potentially atone and elude their grasp, however unlikely such an occurrence may be.

I would guess after he gets tossed in the TN bin they find he isn't true neutral and then tosses him into another after life that they feel is more appropriate until he finds what ever after life is most appropriate.

It should be noted that the Deva, being a being of pure Law and Good, does not actually get to decide whether Roy goes in the TN afterlife at all. It is entirely plausible that she would push him over there, only for him to be rejected for being too lawful and/or too good. Presumably one of the border afterlives would accept him were that the case.

Regardless of where Roy would have ultimately ended up, my point stands - one act was enough to make him NOT good (or lawful) enough for the mountain, which she DOES get to decide. In other words getting tossed in the TN bin by the deva means one thing - that a single act was sufficient to make Roy not be LG (capital letters on both). However much he got shuffled around after that, the mountain would be a negatory.

I think attempting to derive a consistent map of who goes where from what the deva said to Roy+what Soon said to Miko is...well, it's an effort Rich hasn't made himself, let's put it that way.

I'm not "deriving a map" (whatever that means.) I'm pointing out that in OotS, one act can change your alignment. That's all.

Note also the IFCC, and their statement "that stunt with the dragons." Here again, one act can have lasting impact.

[Keltest]

Regardless of where Roy would have ultimately ended up, my point stands - one act was enough to make him NOT good (or lawful) enough for the mountain, which she DOES get to decide. In other words getting tossed in the TN bin by the deva means one thing - that a single act was sufficient to make Roy not be LG (capital letters on both). However much he got shuffled around after that, the mountain would be a negatory.

As mentioned, there are other places for LGs to go besides the mountain. We don't know that Arcadia wouldn't be perfectly happy to have an LG leader who was unwilling to stick his neck out for a chaotic loose cannon who made his own trouble by deviating from the order, for example.

[Psyren]

As mentioned, there are other places for LGs to go besides the mountain. We don't know that Arcadia wouldn't be perfectly happy to have an LG leader who was unwilling to stick his neck out for a chaotic loose cannon who made his own trouble by deviating from the order, for example.

LNs can go there too though. So "winds up in Arcadia" tells us nothing one way or the other, save that the individual in question "was not quite LG enough." One thing it does tell us though, is where the Deva thinks he belongs.

(Also, Roy's file being chucked in the TN bin doesn't necessarily mean Arcadia either.)



EDIT: Rereading the Giant's quote (which does confirm the Great Wheel), he doesn't mention a "second review" at all:

There are only 17 Outer Planes; Roy's alignment would have to match one of them, because you can't not have an alignment. The deva only got "first look" because Lawful Good was the alignment Roy declared himself to be. It was his goal, and the review was to see if he had really met that goal. If he didn't, that would mean he actually had some other alignment, in which case the powers-that-be on that plane would have been happy to have him. Generally speaking, a character who really is alignment X on the inside will be admitted to plane X with no problems, except in certain special circumstances (Eugene, for example).

Then we have the Deva's own words:

There are two different sets of criteria I need to consider before assigning you an afterlife. Are you Good, and are you Lawful?

Note she doesn't merely say "before determining whether this is your afterlife." She says "assigning you an afterlife." Meaning his review can, right then and there, determine his actual destination, without queueing up a second time elsewhere. This matches what the Giant said in his own quote.

In other words, when the Deva said "chuck in the TN bin" she meant that's the afterlife he'd end up in - not Arcadia or Valhalla etc. It also meant that he would not arrive there and then have someone else bring up his file a second time; that was already done by the folks who got "first look." So Roy truly would have been TN had he chosen to abandon Elan that day.

[RatElemental]

I am of the opinion that Roy knowingly and unrepentantly leaving Elan to his fate at the hands of a band of bandits would indeed be worse than Miko mistakenly executing someone she thought was evil (provided she had actual reasons for thinking that). At least from the angle of intentions. This is a world where evil is a literal cosmological force and you can bring the wrongfully executed back to life, even if it's expensive. Failure to carry out her due diligence on the matter, before resorting to violence, on the other hand...

[Psyren]

Actually, the worst thing Miko did was not "mistakenly" executing Shojo. It was refusing to even consider that she might have been wrong to do so. (Though the attempted murder that accompanied that refusal certainly didn't help either.) Her life was not in any danger, even after killing her liege, yet she resorted to lethal force anyway. And Soon explicitly says as much while repudiating her.

[unbeliever536]

Actually, the worst thing Miko did was not "mistakenly" executing Shojo. It was refusing to even consider that she might have been wrong to do so. (Though the attempted murder that accompanied that refusal certainly didn't help either.) Her life was not in any danger, even after killing her liege, yet she resorted to lethal force anyway. And Soon explicitly says as much while repudiating her.

Yeah, Soon's statements imply that while she fell because she killed Shojo and violated the paladin code, the actual alignment change was due to her failure to seek atonement after the unambiguous message of her fall. Wheeling things back around to Roy, this fits with the deva's framing of the forest incident: had Roy not turned back (ie sought to fix his mistake), he wouldn't be properly Lawful Good. But he did, so he is.

That said, there's an alternative reading available here: that all of this is about evidence of alignment, rather than alignment per se. In this view, Miko was never actually LG, but the universe didn't know about that until she killed Shojo and refused to atone. Roy abandoning Elan is evidence against his being LG, but going back to save him is evidence in favor.

[LuisDantas]

Yeah, Soon's statements imply that while she fell because she killed Shojo and violated the paladin code, the actual alignment change was due to her failure to seek atonement after the unambiguous message of her fall. Wheeling things back around to Roy, this fits with the deva's framing of the forest incident: had Roy not turned back (ie sought to fix his mistake), he wouldn't be properly Lawful Good. But he did, so he is.

That said, there's an alternative reading available here: that all of this is about evidence of alignment, rather than alignment per se. In this view, Miko was never actually LG, but the universe didn't know about that until she killed Shojo and refused to atone. Roy abandoning Elan is evidence against his being LG, but going back to save him is evidence in favor.

I don't know about the OOtS-verse, but going by Miko's sayings and actions one has to wonder if she ever understood what a LG alignment was. I stand by the perception that somehow she was a Paladin without (going by the strip evidence) ever having been LG.

[factotum]

I stand by the perception that somehow she was a Paladin without (going by the strip evidence) ever having been LG.

You realise that's entirely impossible, right? It's even more impossible than Elan or Belkar being Lawful--they have classes (Bard and Barbarian respectively) which restrict entry to non-lawful alignments, but which both allow you to retain most of their features if you somehow change alignment to Lawful after taking the class. Paladins, on the other hand, instantly lose their abilities if they break the Paladin Code, which (as has been said many times) is far easier to do than to change alignments, and you can't become one in the first place without being solid LG.

[LuisDantas]

You realise that's entirely impossible, right?

No, I do not.

It's even more impossible than Elan or Belkar being Lawful--they have classes (Bard and Barbarian respectively) which restrict entry to non-lawful alignments, but which both allow you to retain most of their features if you somehow change alignment to Lawful after taking the class. Paladins, on the other hand, instantly lose their abilities if they break the Paladin Code, which (as has been said many times) is far easier to do than to change alignments, and you can't become one in the first place without being solid LG.

I figure the OOtS-verse does not follow strict alignment rules when it comes to Paladins.

[martianmister]

No, I do not.

Well, it is.

I figure the OOtS-verse does not follow strict alignment rules when it comes to Paladins.

That's not probable.

[137beth]

I stand by the perception that somehow she was a Paladin without (going by the strip evidence) ever having been LG.

You realise that's entirely impossible, right?

No, I do not.

Well, it is.

I figure the OOtS-verse does not follow strict alignment rules when it comes to Paladins.

That's not probable.

Which is it: impossible or improbable? If it's impossible, explain why it is impossible for OOTS to not be following the 3.5 rules exactly when it comes to paladins?

[martianmister]

Which is it: impossible or improbable?

It's impossible in DnD, improbable in OotS.

If it's impossible, explain why it is impossible for OOTS to not be following the 3.5 rules exactly when it comes to paladins?

It's improbable, and they're implied to be LG, just like source material:

Roy: There. Now I do. Guys, listen, this isn't some agent of a dark overlord, this is a PALADIN. She is definitionally one of the Good Guys.

Roy: Well gosh, letting me know that you’re apparently a very skillful liar is definitely a step in the right direction. Doesn’t seem exactly paladinish of you, either.
Shojo: Mr. Greenhilt, I am the commander of the paladins of the Sapphire Guard by virtue of my inheritance, not merit. In other words, I command the paladins. I have never claimed to be one.
Roy: Wait, you’re not a paladin??
Shojo: Technically, I’m a 14th level aristocrat. Heck, I’m not even Lawful!

Roy: Really? Gosh, a paladin is curious about whether the laws are being upheld? Who'd guess?

[Psyren]

There's also Redcloak:

"...I wrote it on my schedule in ink. You're Lawful, I'm sure you understand."
"...Threatening innocents to get the Good guy to cave? I might as well grow a mustache and twirl the ends while I'm at it."
"You're a paladin! You can't just let me do this! It's literally against the rules!"

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm not "deriving a map" (whatever that means.) I'm pointing out that in OotS, one act can change your alignment. That's all.

Note also the IFCC, and their statement "that stunt with the dragons." Here again, one act can have lasting impact.

When it comes to abandoning Elan to the bandits I actually don't think Roy did anything unusually wrong. The problem here is that readers think of Elan as some kind of helpless infant who needs swaddling and protection, and that it's Roy's job to provide that service. If Elan is a helpless infant, I would suggest that Roy should not have brought him into dungeons and wilderness full of things that will try to kill him in the first place.

Anyway, I fully expect that Miko's afterlife audit has turned into a five-way interplanar custody battle with appeals, technicalities and retrials that will last for years after the main plot wraps up, but it's conceivable that she wouldn't be bumped below Arcadia because she actually had a much higher moral balance in the bank, prior to going katana-crazy.

I don't know about the OOtS-verse, but going by Miko's sayings and actions one has to wonder if she ever understood what a LG alignment was. I stand by the perception that somehow she was a Paladin without (going by the strip evidence) ever having been LG.

Okay, I'll bite. What gives you the impression that Miko was never LG?

(There is reason to believe that OOTSverse deities aren't consistently enforcing the paladin code, but as I see it early-strip Miko was essentially justified in everything she did.)
.

[snowblizz]

When it comes to abandoning Elan to the bandits I actually don't think Roy did anything unusually wrong. The problem here is that readers think of Elan as some kind of helpless infant who needs swaddling and protection, and that it's Roy's job to provide that service. If Elan is a helpless infant, I would suggest that Roy should not have brought him into dungeons and wilderness full of things that will try to kill him in the first place.
.

Having read the prequel when the party is formed we can see why Roy thinks Elan is actually competent. Elan gets to use his troperiffic knowledge to the full. Elan wasn't exactly brought there, he looked like he knew what he was about and accpeted the place Roy offered. Obviously soon after this Roy is starting to have doubts of the widom of that particular decision.
And I think most people don't realise that by the bandits in Wooden Forest arc the gang has known each other as a group for something like less than a month.

That said, I can see why the Deva places the burden on Roy, as th eleader he has implicitly take on that role and Lawful Good is Lawful Good. It sets a high bar to it's adherents. At least in certain ways.

And the Giant sort of agrees with that concept. As described in the commentaries part of Elans arc in becoming a dashing swordsman is precisely so he'll look like a reasonable partner to Haley.

[Fyraltari]

When it comes to abandoning Elan to the bandits I actually don't think Roy did anything unusually wrong. The problem here is that readers think of Elan as some kind of helpless infant who needs swaddling and protection, and that it's Roy's job to provide that service.

Elan is a teammate in the group Roy leads. It does not matter how (in)competent he is, making sure he is reasonnably safe is part of Roy's duty. Especially when you consider that Elan volunteered to go on this mission solely for Roy's benefit.

[hamishspence]

Elan is a teammate in the group Roy leads. It does not matter how (in)competent he is, making sure he is reasonnably safe is part of Roy's duty. Especially when you consider that Elan volunteered to go on this mission solely for Roy's benefit.

Durkon summed it up best in Origin of PCs - when he made it clear that he has a duty to keep alive his fellow teammates while he was in that team, regardless of how horrible they were to him.

As party leader, Roy's duty is even bigger.

[Lacuna Caster]

Elan is a teammate in the group Roy leads. It does not matter how (in)competent he is, making sure he is reasonnably safe is part of Roy's duty. Especially when you consider that Elan volunteered to go on this mission solely for Roy's benefit.

Look, I know that the actual events of the strip make a hash of gauging the real risks here, but Roy calls going after the bandits suicide, and given that Sam & Pa did beat the rest of the party, it's conceivable he only prevailed later through sheer dumb luck. Refusing to endanger yourself and/or your remaining comrades by leading them against a superior force is an entirely defensible tactical decision.

If Roy were genuinely concerned for Elan's well-being, he would explicitly tell him to stay behind in town and grind another few levels clearing rats from basements before he took on another high-level dungeon quest. When he's already surrounded by a large force of potentially lethal enemies is not the time to accuse Roy of negligence.

[hamishspence]

Look, I know that the actual events of the strip make a hash of gauging the real risks here, but Roy calls going after the bandits suicide, and given that Sam & Pa did beat the rest of the party, it's conceivable he only prevailed later through sheer dumb luck.

Roy didn't prevail - he lost. Ultimately it was Durkon who Saved The Party by (unintentionally) knocking out the bandit leader and promptly being declared the new leader by the bandits.

But, to paraphrase Durkon: "Being (LG) is about doing your duty...". And Roy failed to do his duty (before changing his mind)- which is why the Deva is so critical of Roy for that one act.

[hroþila]

It's very telling that Roy's first reaction wasn't "it's suicide!", but rather "well that was a stroke of luck!". The suicide line (uttered without a proper risk analysis) strikes me as simple rationalization on Roy's part. If he had properly analyzed the situation or discussed it with his second-in-command, and afterwards he sincerely believed it to be a suicide mission and he refused to put the lives of the other folks under his command in danger, I'd be fine with calling that Lawful Good. But that's not what happened.

[Fyraltari]

If Roy were genuinely concerned for Elan's well-being, he would explicitly tell him to stay behind in town and grind another few levels clearing rats from basements before he took on another high-level dungeon quest. When he's already surrounded by a large force of potentially lethal enemies is not the time to accuse Roy of negligence.

We are talking about the guy who decided to attack a high-level undead sorcerer whithout researching how to definitively kill the guy. And then jumpd on dragon to fight said sorcerer without having any flying abilities.

Let's just say that risk assessment isn't his forte. At least until he died.

[PopeLinus1]

Was leaving Elan worse than killing Shojo? Possibly.

Let’s look at Roy. Elan is his freind, or at least Elan thinks he’s Roy’s freind. Elan has been helping Roy since the beginning, is responsible for the OotS even being founded, and, while at that point he’s not the most useful member of the party, they all would have perished if Elan hadn’t captured Nale(he had the scroll which freed Celia, and allowed them to escape that section. Also, Roy later says he became a fighter to protect the innocent, and Elan was the first to agree to go on the mission into the woods in the first place.

Now let’s look at Miko. She knows some things about the party.
Belkar: Tried to hide his alignment, attempted to murder her horse(who is her only friend) straight up killed a dude, and then tried to make her lose her Paladin powers, which she was using for good.
Haley: Is a past thief, focused on getting money rather than saving people from the inn.
V: Didn’t want to help innocent people, even though it cost V almost nothing. Defended Belkar even though V knew had murdered an innocent person, and has no reason to think has it killed more.
Elan: If she only believed the twin thing because she trusted Durkon, and she doesint know, who’s to say what. elans done.
Durkon:Trusted, But Miko feels betrayed her trust by defending Belkar.
And finally, Roy: Roy, as far as she knew, lied about killing Xykon, the twin thing is hard to believe, and she disbeleived It when she didn’t think the party was a group of Murdering Blasphemous Liars (which some of them actually are) With that in mind, Roy also is responsible for the destruction of a inn, the distraction of something holding the Universe together, and tampering with the Legal affairs of three different cases.

All in all, this put together, along with other things miko knows about the party, makes them seem like a fairly Neutral party. And a neutral Adventuring party would work with a lich to undermine a city’s security. Shojo is in charge of an order that’s job is to protect a world ending tear in the fabric of reality. That is not the kind of thing someone can take a, The rules don’t effect me attitude. And would capturing Shojo help? He’s been in charge of the courts for several decades. It’s more than possible that the Justice system is so screwed up that putting him on trial wouldn’t even work.

Was it an evil act? Yes. Should it have made her lose her powers? Yes. But does it necessary mean her alignment changed? No. As far as alignment change, Roy’s was worse, because he had no legitimate reason. Mikos justification was wrong, but she actually had one.

As for her actions after she’s fallen affecting her alignment, in one action, everything she had ever worked for in her life, everything she had refer believed in was gone. When she fights Roy and Hinjo, why should we expect her to be in a logical frame of mind? When people are feeling a lot of different emotions at once they are not “logical” They tend to be far more chaotic. Why should someone’s alignment be affected when they are going through incredible amounts of emotion. Heck, if being a paladin caused her emotions to be more in check, than she simply wouldint be used to having so much emotions all at once.

Afterwards, when she wakes up in jail, she doesn’t try to escape, she doesn’t take any overtly evil actions, or even neutral ones, she just begins praying. And while it’s clear she’s not trying to repent, she is praying for the gods to give her guidance, which is a good action. Than she escapes, while the city is under siege with the intent to help people, but instead goes to the throne room to prevent Xykon from obtaining world ending power, and in doing so continue to fulfill her oath, even though she has no actual obligation to. That is not a neutral, or a chaotic action. Once upstairs, she than takes the action that O-Chul was going to take before he was frozen. Rich has even said that O-Chul is the right way to play a Palidin, and Miko takes the exact same action he did.

I don’t think Miko’s Alignment has changed.

[hroþila]

Once upstairs, she than takes the action that O-Chul was going to take before he was frozen. Rich has even said that O-Chul is the right way to play a Palidin, and Miko takes the exact same action he did.

But, crucially, she took that action for a completely different reason.

If you take their intentions out of the equation, you could argue that both Roy and Xykon are down with killing goblin henchmen.

[Fyraltari]

Once upstairs, she than takes the action that O-Chul was going to take before he was frozen. Rich has even said that O-Chul is the right way to play a Palidin, and Miko takes the exact same action he did.

When O-Chul decided to do that Xykon wasn't lying face first on the floor with the ghost of a their legendary founder pounding him to dust.

Call me crazy, but I believe that would affect his decision somehow.

[brian 333]

One can lose one's paladinhood without changing alignment. Miko might just end up on Mount Celestia anyway, but not allowed to take the Paladin Shortcut to get past those boring low tiers of stuff they gave up while still alive.