I just now realized that Miko has access to exactly one form of healing.

[Keltest]

I had to read that a couple times to see what you were disagreeing with me on. Yes, "celestial planes" implies ALL of the upper planes, and I was wrong to imply that.

I thought at first that is what Soon meant, but re-reading Roy's visit to the mountain, the bureaucratic Deva refers to the specific LG plane as "the Celestial Realm" more than once. So, Soon is specifically talking about heading to the Mountain, (and Miko heading elsewhere.)

Now as to the argument that if they're escorting her it must be an adjacent plane: maybe. If so, does that mean Acadia?

I would argue "no." In fact, I would argue that if she had died before murdering Shojo, she likely would have been reviewed by a Deva and sent to Acadia, because anything good she had ever done was because doing good was the law, and never because it was good. Intentions matter.

It was her deluded violations of her own ideals of LAW that changed her posthumous destination as much or more than the harm she did. She opposed her rightful leader, and after killing him, his successor, broke out of a jail she had been lawfully assigned to, and took counter productive individual action rather than ascertaining and going with the plan of the team, when floating right there telling her to stop was the one authority even she couldn't question the legitimacy of.

If Soon's words imply that she was headed for a plane bordering Mt Celestia, the only possible one in my view is Concordant Opposition.

And that's a big "if"...

I'm fairly certain that you are reading more into Soon's statement than is actually there. Soon doesn't get to decide which afterlife Miko goes to, and unless he has been watching her for her whole life (unlikely) then his ability to decide "no, she isn't going to Celestia" is fairly limited as well. His statement is deliberately noncommittal because he doesn't know where Miko will end up, and he doesn't want to do something like, say, promise she will get into one afterlife when she goes to another instead.

[alwaysbebatman]

So, if Soon has a good idea that Miko probably won't be going to Celestia, says so, but turns out to be mistaken, wouldn't that be a strange thing not to make explicit?

Even if Soon had said nothing it would be inexplicable to claim that Miko was headed to the Mountain. She received a judgment and warning from her own gods that she was on the wrong path when she murdered Shojo, and then explicitly rejected that warning.

It doesn't take a bureaucratic Deva or knowing every action she ever took to see from that sign alone that she probably wasn't headed to the same outer plane as the paladin ghosts.

[Lacuna Caster]

I would argue "no." In fact, I would argue that if she had died before murdering Shojo, she likely would have been reviewed by a Deva and sent to Acadia, because anything good she had ever done was because doing good was the law, and never because it was good...

One of the tenets of the paladin code is 'Be Good'. By this standard, there is literally no good deed she can perform that can't be written off as a technicality.

[alwaysbebatman]

Right. Intentions matter. Some people subscribe to a code because it's a good code. Some people do good because that's the code they subscribed to.

How is it not clear which of those two is O-Chul and which is Miko?

[Kish]

I wonder what the "other interpretation" I've made up my mind on is. It must be very baroque, as my method of supporting it is to point out whenever someone claims in either direction that Miko obviously went to X that no certain conclusion at all can be supported. How you convince yourself that your highly subjective interpretation of Soon's words is actually such perfect objectivity mystifies me.

[Lacuna Caster]

Right. Intentions matter. Some people subscribe to a code because it's a good code. Some people do good because that's the code they subscribed to...

My point is that you've created an unsatisfiable standard of evidence. For my own part, when I saw Miko risk heavy physical danger to rescue the helpless, offer healing, and pay for other people's comfort and damages, I take it as evidence that she actually values those outcomes. Because if I write those off as technicalities, then for consistency I'm going to have to write off everything every paladin everywhere ever does as 'the code says so'.

.

[alwaysbebatman]

@kish: Is it not possible one could have their mind set on the position "this is not clear" when, in fact, it's pretty darn clear?

This is based on my opinion of Miko, sure. But also the twelve gods' opinion, Soon's opinion, Elan's opinion, Haley's opinion, Roy's opinion....

In the end it goes back to what Elan said to Roy. It could equally be the author addressing Miko's defenders in the fanbase: "She's mean to us, but you defend her. Does that mean you don't like us?"

The author used every trick in the book to make this character despicable. It's a mystery to me why Miko fans insist on fighting upstream.

@Lacuna Caster: And if we were to subscribe to this idea, that not every good action is done for the sake of good would you question O-Chul's motives in the same way?

I don't think it's as hard as you're making it out to be for the author to show a character's motivations. Except to those who willfully blind themselves to it.

[Keltest]

Is it not possible one could have their mind set on the position "this is not clear" when, in fact, it's pretty darn clear?

This is based on my opinion of Miko, sure. But also the twelve gods' opinion, Soon's opinion, Elan's opinion, Haley's opinion, Roy's opinion....

In the end it goes back to what Elan said to Roy. It could equally be the author addressing Miko's defenders in the fanbase: "She's mean to us, but you defend her. Does that mean you don't like us?"

The author used every trick in the book to make this character despicable. It's a mystery to me why Miko fans insist on fighting upstream.

Conversely, the author used every trick in the book to make this character despicable. Its a mystery to me why Miko haters insist on attributing even more failings to her than are already present.

Miko, as a character, was made to be disliked. Miko, as a person, was not made to be Evil, or even Non-Good, and using the idea that Soon did not tell her which afterlife she was going to as proof that she died an evil person or something is straining my credulity.

[alwaysbebatman]

@Keltest: I think the subtext of what Soon was getting at was clear. There was no need for the two of them to talk about the destination of her soul, except to imply that the destination was not likely to be what she was expecting.

And I question the term "Miko-hater". If you mean "finds the character despicable," sure. We already agreed that she is intended to be. But if you mean, "thinks she's a bad character," no way. Her story is a really effective tragic story of how good intentions combined with willful blindness can lead to destruction.

A happy ending on Mt Celestia with Windstriker does not make that story stronger.

[Lacuna Caster]

The author used every trick in the book to make this character despicable. It's a mystery to me why Miko fans insist on fighting upstream.

@Lacuna Caster: And if we were to subscribe to this idea, that not every good action is done for the sake of good would you question O-Chul's motives in the same way?

But what special faculty do you possess that allows you to peer into someone's head and discern their motives, as distinct from looking at their actual behaviour? Saying "I'm going to apply different standards of evidence to different paladins" is the very definition of allowing your theory to screen out awkward facts.

Miko was not actually originally intended as a blatantly despicable character. She was intended as light romantic comedy, with no more blatant flaws than... any of the main cast at the time. And then a certain wing of the audience reacted as if her behaviour were despicable, and... well, I suppose there's no obvious way to tell what went through the author's head afterward, but let's just say that "every trick in the book" includes some narrative tactics I'd consider underhanded.

[alwaysbebatman]

Do you seriously believe that the author changed the story for Miko based on audience reaction? That he had not had this eventual end for her in mind all along?

And you still read this book?

[Keltest]

@Keltest: I think the subtext of what Soon was getting at was clear. There was no need for the two of them to talk about the destination of her soul, except to imply that the destination was not likely to be what she was expecting.

And I question the term "Miko-hater". If you mean "finds the character despicable," sure. We already agreed that she is intended to be. But if you mean, "thinks she's a bad character," no way. Her story is a really effective tragic story of how good intentions combined with willful blindness can lead to destruction.

A happy ending on Mt Celestia with Windstriker does not make that story stronger.

And a number of people disagree with you.

Additionally, Mt Celestia is not a happy ending. Rich went out of his way to make the afterlife nice, but not as good as, you know, being alive. And that was with Roy, who has more waiting for him there than most do.

[Hamste]

But what special faculty do you possess that allows you to peer into someone's head and discern their motives, as distinct from looking at their actual behaviour? Saying "I'm going to apply different standards of evidence to different paladins" is the very definition of allowing your theory to screen out awkward facts.

Miko was not actually originally intended as a blatantly despicable character. She was intended as light romantic comedy, with no more blatant flaws than... any of the main cast at the time. And then a certain wing of the audience reacted as if her behaviour were despicable, and... well, I suppose there's no obvious way to tell what went through the author's head afterward, but let's just say that "every trick in the book" includes some narrative tactics I'd consider underhanded.

Not totally true, Rich said that she was supposed to be flirty but after writing her, he realized that he didn't want to go that way and the ending would have been the same even if he hadn't made that choice.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=122

[alwaysbebatman]

@Keltest: True, the afterlife is not supposed to be anybody's preferred outcome. But if one IS going to die, the afterlife you were expecting might be considered the happier ending...

Also, she had already had numerous opportunities to change course and signs that she should have done so.

[Kish]

Not totally true, Rich said that she was supposed to be flirty but after writing her, he realized that he didn't want to go that way and the ending would have been the same even if he hadn't made that choice.

That said, I think ignoring all the indications, including Rich saying so, that he meant her to be a Lawful Good antagonist in favor of saying she had to go to a bad afterlife because she's a villain...well, "does not make that story stronger" seems to me to translate directly to "does not uphold the sledgehammer-to-the-face she-was-pure-vileness-with-no-redeeming-features narrative I want to see," or to put it another way, to be identical to, "I hate nuance, therefore there is no nuance, and anyone who sees nuance lacks my understanding."

[alwaysbebatman]

@kish: Yeah, she's a Lawful Good antagonist at the start. Are we to ignore why she's an antagonist? It wasn't all just a wacky misunderstanding. It's possible to be LG with serious character flaws and blind spots. But to stay that way? Depends a lot on the circumstances, and the circumstances did not favor Miko.

[Lacuna Caster]

Not totally true, Rich said that she was supposed to be flirty but after writing her, he realized that he didn't want to go that way and the ending would have been the same even if he hadn't made that choice.

Do you seriously believe that the author changed the story for Miko based on audience reaction? That he had not had this eventual end for her in mind all along?

Well... this requires me to believe that the originally-intended fun-happy-flirty-Miko was still eventually going to attack the order during the trial scene, bump into Redcloak & Co., flip out, kill Shojo, and destroy the Azurite Gate, only... hundreds of strips later, in a way that apparently didn't depend on the particulars of her personality, interactions with the Order, Xykon's invasion of azure city, or dozens of other major events.

That's not quite impossible, but... nothing about it really screams 'master plan' to me. In the end, I'm not sure it really matters: I know exactly what kind of people were rooting for Miko to fail, and I don't think they deserved the satisfaction.

[Kish]

Huh. Couple people in that thread I remember--not fondly.

[Hamste]

Well... this requires me to believe that the originally-intended fun-happy-flirty-Miko was still eventually going to attack the order during the trial scene, bump into Redcloak & Co., flip out, kill Shojo, and destroy the Azurite Gate, only... hundreds of strips later, in a way that apparently didn't depend on the particulars of her personality, interactions with the Order, Xykon's invasion of azure city, or dozens of other major events.

That's not quite impossible, but... nothing about it really screams 'master plan' to me. In the end, I'm not sure it really matters: I know exactly what kind of people were rooting for Miko to fail, and I don't think they deserved the satisfaction.

I could see it. Even if she wasn't serious all the time, she would still have had a serious personality as that apparently was the original idea of the character. In the end she meets a threat the heroes were supposed to have defeated who didn't even remember who they were or their name, who had a lot of gold when captured and is now invading the city shortly after the order were captured. That alone should make the vast majority of people suspicious even if you were flirting with one of the people because it screams bribed inside man. Then you get there to report and find your ruler was actively breaking the laws, going behind the paladins' back and rigged a trial to get the guilty pardoned. Assuming she had similar problems with jumping to conclusions or assurance that the gods had a plan for her even though she was more flirty and then I could see her immediately attacking and falling. Destroying the gate is also similarly explainable as there is a logical reason for it.

Belkar still probably would have murdered people to try to get under to try to get her to fall and she would still have attacked him after he escaped (because he is a murderer) and he still would have got the mark. Was there any other important development from that?

[alwaysbebatman]

Ugh... so I gather I'm being lumped in with Skyler(or Beth, or etc.)-is-such-a-bitch "fans"? Wonderful.

Unlike Breaking Bad, Rick and Morty, the Ozarks, etc: OOTS is NOT about family. We hardly ever see a domestic unit.

Since it's not a family-centered story, Miko's gender is barely relevant. It leads to Roy's judgment being briefly clouded by his gonads, other than that it wouldn't effect the story in any way if Miko had been a male character instead.

(ETA, I forgot to say: point being, my views on the character wouldn't be any different if she had been a male character instead.)

I can understand wanting things to work out in a way that would annoy bad, misogynist fans. But they didn't.

Maybe consider the possibility that you've swung the pendulum a little too far in the other direction in reaction...?

[Kish]

I could see it. Even if she wasn't serious all the time, she would still have had a serious personality as that apparently was the original idea of the character. In the end she meets a threat the heroes were supposed to have defeated who didn't even remember who they were or their name, who had a lot of gold when captured and is now invading the city shortly after the order were captured. That alone should make the vast majority of people suspicious even if you were flirting with one of the people because it screams bribed inside man. Then you get there to report and find your ruler was actively breaking the laws, going behind the paladins' back and rigged a trial to get the guilty pardoned. Assuming she had similar problems with jumping to conclusions or assurance that the gods had a plan for her even though she was more flirty and then I could see her immediately attacking and falling. Destroying the gate is also similarly explainable as there is a logical reason for it.

Belkar still probably would have murdered people to try to get under to try to get her to fall and she would still have attacked him after he escaped (because he is a murderer) and he still would have got the mark. Was there any other important development from that?

Rich apparently said in the comments of one of the books that her Fall and destruction of the Gate was originally planned to be much later in the story than it wound up happening. I'm not sure how that would have worked; the Azure City gate was doomed from the moment Redcloak and Xykon set out after it. Unless Rich was originally planning for Xykon/Redcloak not to do so until much later, their next target was supposed to be Girard's Gate, which...whoa, that would be quite a rewrite.

[dps]

Even if Soon had said nothing it would be inexplicable to claim that Miko was headed to the Mountain. She received a judgment and warning from her own gods that she was on the wrong path when she murdered Shojo, and then explicitly rejected that warning.

Her gods judged her no longer worthy of being a Paladin, but you don't have to be a Paladin to still be LG. It is clear that Miko lost her status as a Paladin; it is not clear that she also changed alignment.

I don't take Soon's wording of "your destination" to rule out that she was headed to the same place as the Ghost Martyrs. He knew where he and the others were going; he didn't and couldn't know for sure where Miko was going, but was promising to escort her there, even if it was a different destination.

[Hamste]

Rich apparently said in the comments of one of the books that her Fall and destruction of the Gate was originally planned to be much later in the story than it wound up happening. I'm not sure how that would have worked; the Azure City gate was doomed from the moment Redcloak and Xykon set out after it. Unless Rich was originally planning for Xykon/Redcloak not to do so until much later, their next target was supposed to be Girard's Gate, which...whoa, that would be quite a rewrite.

Which is weird seeing he specifically said the change in Miko's personality didn't change anything and the story wasn't cut short from fans disliking her. Most likely he changed stuff unrelated to Miko that caused the gate to be destroyed early than the original plan.

(Because I mentioned it, here is the link to them saying fans disliking her changing nothing
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...8&postcount=38 )

[alwaysbebatman]

Her gods judged her no longer worthy of being a Paladin, but you don't have to be a Paladin to still be LG. It is clear that Miko lost her status as a Paladin; it is not clear that she also changed alignment.

I agree, I believe she absolutely does NOT change alignment at the same time as her fall. As I've said, her fall served as a warning sign from her gods that she was on the wrong path.

If she had taken that warning to heart, she wouldn't have unnecessarily destroyed Soon's gate while at the same time sabotaging Soon's ghost defeating Xykon and Redcloak.

Unwillingness to accept the judgment of her gods is what moved her actions from tragic mistakes that she was only partly responsible for (poor judgment, rashness) to willful blindness that she bears full responsibility for. There could have been no clearer sign.

[Morty]

Good to see that, ten years after she kicked the bucket, Miko can still cause the exact same argument. If less intense than when she was alive.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Has it really been that long? I thought it was more like eight.

[B. Dandelion]

464 came out June 11, 2007, so yes, ten years.

I joined in 2008 and discovered only in retrospect what an insanely controversial character she'd been. I was relieved to have missed out on most of the arguing, which was the stuff of legend.

[Jasdoif]

There was no need for the two of them to talk about the destination of her soul, except to imply that the destination was not likely to be what she was expecting.

I find the "there was no need except the one I can imagine" argument isn't particularly convincing on its own. Just to pull an alternative off the top of my head, I believe the one comic is currently the strongest source of characterization for Soon, and Soon's personality may be a specific factor in Girard blaming Soon for Kraagor's death (rightly or wrongly), and perhaps even more responsible for the breakup of the Order of the Scribble than the subjective crayon comics would have us believe. Those specific reasons haven't been revealed, so if there did happen to be cause for showing a fragment of Soon's personality through his comment to Miko, there'd be no way for us to tell right now.


Additionally:

Also, as a general rule of thumb, no one should say the sentence, "There's no (or no other) possible narrative purpose for Rich to have done X!" until the story is completed. Because there's always a narrative purpose, you just haven't thought of what it is.

[alwaysbebatman]

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, obviously it's far from definitive. It's just bizarre to me that so many people seem convinced Soon didn't mean that. I'm not sure how he could have hinted at it more obviously without coming across as needlessly cruel to the dying person.

[dps]

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, obviously it's far from definitive. It's just bizarre to me that so many people seem convinced Soon didn't mean that. I'm not sure how he could have hinted at it more obviously without coming across as needlessly cruel to the dying person.

FWIW, I'm not convinced that he didn't mean what you think he meant; I'm simply not convinced that he did mean what you think, either.

EDIT: Nor am I convinced that Soon knew for certain where Miko was headed anyway.