Get Fit: I want a folding vegetable.

[Douglas]

Definitely true, especially if you weigh as much as I do. Calisthenics can have some pretty heavy stopping points though, since there's a point where you won't weigh enough to actually make a movement worth it for improving heavy lifting strength. Like for example, in pushups, for me, I might be pressing the equivalent of... like we'll say between 130 and 190 lbs (between 1/2 and 2/3rds of my body weight). But for a guy who weighs 255, that's not a lot to press. So I would wind up being able to do enough reps that the pressing would be difficult. And then you hit points where to do more challenging calisthenics stuff you have to have enough natural flexibility and joint strength to do it.

Well, part of the routine I'm doing will eventually become handstand pushups. It's exactly what it sounds like, and involves pressing 100% of your body weight.

But yes, if you get to that point you can't go any further without additional weights, which is why I mentioned that serious athletes and professionals need more.

[Tvtyrant]

I've been learning recently that your own body can serve as an impressively good weight to lift in many various exercises, using little or no equipment. Professional athletes and people looking to go from "fit" to "extremely fit" need something more, but it's plenty for someone out of shape looking to get decently fit and maybe lose some weight. It's called "bodyweight" exercising, if you need any help finding resources on it.

For meal replacement drinks, one that's been getting a lot of popularity and press recently is Soylent. I've started drinking about 1 bottle a day of it (substituting maybe a quarter of my overall food). It took a little getting used to at first, but now I actually like the Cacao flavor.

I hear some good things about Soylent, but be warned it is banned in Canada for making unproven health claims.

[AMFV]

Well, part of the routine I'm doing will eventually become handstand pushups. It's exactly what it sounds like, and involves pressing 100% of your body weight.

But yes, if you get to that point you can't go any further without additional weights, which is why I mentioned that serious athletes and professionals need more.

Well there are ways to involve torque and stuff and gymnastic type movements to where you can actually load more than your bodyweight into a bodyweight movement. But the issue is that those tend to require flexibility and stability and stuff that not everybody has.

Is that the Prison Workout one? I remember that being a super intense awesome workout.

And there are definitely some movements that always involve your whole bodyweight, like pullups or whatnot. And you can add weights to things sometimes. Or just be really large like me.

[2D8HP]

Well dang!

I don't make resolutions, and normally my attitude towards physical effort, is to do it when I'm paid to (except bicycling, I like exploring but hate driving, and I gave up on motorcycles when my son was born).

But this week, I had to get a drum snake (one of these, a 100 feet of cable, and an "optional" control head, add about another 100 pounds to it), to a clean out inside a plumbing chase in the jail, and a couple of years before, me and a co-worker (who's about a year younger than me) have done it by lifting the machine up over the vent pipes, and getting it inside. Not this time! I had to disassemble the machine, carry it piece by piece, and than guess right on re-assembling it, taking much longer to do the job.

I hate that my job depends not just on skill, but on physical ability (as a better person than I posted at this Forum "Also, I hate sports"), but I now need to get stronger and have better endurance.

Dang it!

[AMFV]

I hate that my job depends not just on skill, but on physical ability (as a better person than I posted at this Forum "Also, I hate sports"), but I now need to get stronger and have better endurance.

Dang it!

That sucks man, actually I've found that "gym fitness" and "work fitness" are very often not as related as I would like. I'm not sure if there's a perfect solution to that, but it makes it a lot harder to train for.

[Tvtyrant]

Well dang!

I don't make resolutions, and normally my attitude towards physical effort, is to do it when I'm paid to (except bicycling, I like exploring but hate driving, and I gave up on motorcycles when my son was born).

But this week, I had to get a drum snake (one of these, a 100 feet of cable, and an "optional" control head, add about another 100 pounds to it), to a clean out inside a plumbing chase in the jail, and a couple of years before, me and a co-worker (who's about a year younger than me) have done it by lifting the machine up over the vent pipes, and getting it inside. Not this time! I had to disassemble the machine, carry it piece by piece, and than guess right on re-assembling it, taking much longer to do the job.

I hate that my job depends not just on skill, but on physical ability (as a better person than I posted at this Forum "Also, I hate sports"), but I now need to get stronger and have better endurance.

Dang it!

When I worked for UPS the older drivers told me that despite carrying boxes briskly for most of the day you still needed to go the gym or you would wear out. Not sure why gym excercises led to better muscle development and more energy, but it did.

[Jormengand]

So, I have a problem which is kinda the inverse of the problem a lot of people have been having in this thread: I'm way, way too thin.

It's not like I'm not eating enough. I eat like anything, easily getting through my 2000 calorie recommendation one and a half to two times over and sometimes eating up to 8000 calories (no, I'm not accidentally reading the joule values instead), and I still get comments worrying that I'm not eating enough or asking if I'm anorexic. And in fairness, my body shape does little to dispel that: you can see my collarbones clearly and the top few bones of my ribcage without particular issue (the rest are visible if I take off my top). The shape of my body is defined by the fact that my ribcage is noticeably bigger than my waist (which you can see through my top). And I have no idea how to put on more weight - I'll be sick if I try to eat more than quadruple what I should be on a regular basis, in the first instance. Plus, given that I'm (finally) developing in certain areas (like my chest) I imagine that a lot of my body fat will wind up there (which isn't a bad thing necessarily, because I would quite like to have decent growth in that area, but it doesn't really help with the fact that I'm really quite thin everywhere else). So I'm entirely not sure what the hell to do. Any thoughts?

[Tvtyrant]

So, I have a problem which is kinda the inverse of the problem a lot of people have been having in this thread: I'm way, way too thin.

It's not like I'm not eating enough. I eat like anything, easily getting through my 2000 calorie recommendation one and a half to two times over and sometimes eating up to 8000 calories (no, I'm not accidentally reading the joule values instead), and I still get comments worrying that I'm not eating enough or asking if I'm anorexic. And in fairness, my body shape does little to dispel that: you can see my collarbones clearly and the top few bones of my ribcage without particular issue (the rest are visible if I take off my top). The shape of my body is defined by the fact that my ribcage is noticeably bigger than my waist (which you can see through my top). And I have no idea how to put on more weight - I'll be sick if I try to eat more than quadruple what I should be on a regular basis, in the first instance. Plus, given that I'm (finally) developing in certain areas (like my chest) I imagine that a lot of my body fat will wind up there (which isn't a bad thing necessarily, because I would quite like to have decent growth in that area, but it doesn't really help with the fact that I'm really quite thin everywhere else). So I'm entirely not sure what the hell to do. Any thoughts?

What does your food consist of? What forms of excercise do you do regularly? Have you had tests done for T1 Diabetes or other conditions?

My workout parter went from 6ft 130lbs to 163 pounds by lifting, he won't put on fat period. He drinks a shake with each meal after eating what he can make himself put down, abd we work out 4x a week. Weightlifting and cycling have been very effective with high protein content.

[AMFV]

When I worked for UPS the older drivers told me that despite carrying boxes briskly for most of the day you still needed to go the gym or you would wear out. Not sure why gym excercises led to better muscle development and more energy, but it did.

It depends though. I've found that even when I was in really good shape gym-wise, I was not always in really good shape, construction carpentry wise. So a lot of it depends on exactly what kind of job you have and how physically involved it is.

So, I have a problem which is kinda the inverse of the problem a lot of people have been having in this thread: I'm way, way too thin.

It's not like I'm not eating enough. I eat like anything, easily getting through my 2000 calorie recommendation one and a half to two times over and sometimes eating up to 8000 calories (no, I'm not accidentally reading the joule values instead), and I still get comments worrying that I'm not eating enough or asking if I'm anorexic. And in fairness, my body shape does little to dispel that: you can see my collarbones clearly and the top few bones of my ribcage without particular issue (the rest are visible if I take off my top). The shape of my body is defined by the fact that my ribcage is noticeably bigger than my waist (which you can see through my top). And I have no idea how to put on more weight - I'll be sick if I try to eat more than quadruple what I should be on a regular basis, in the first instance. Plus, given that I'm (finally) developing in certain areas (like my chest) I imagine that a lot of my body fat will wind up there (which isn't a bad thing necessarily, because I would quite like to have decent growth in that area, but it doesn't really help with the fact that I'm really quite thin everywhere else). So I'm entirely not sure what the hell to do. Any thoughts?

Well the first problem is that gaining weight is a great deal more complex than losing is. I mean you don't have any way of ensuring that the calories you're eating are actually being used by your body. You could try upping your liquid calories or setting up your gym regimen. But I don't think any of hat is gaurantee

[Sajiri]

So, I have a problem which is kinda the inverse of the problem a lot of people have been having in this thread: I'm way, way too thin.

It's not like I'm not eating enough. I eat like anything, easily getting through my 2000 calorie recommendation one and a half to two times over and sometimes eating up to 8000 calories (no, I'm not accidentally reading the joule values instead), and I still get comments worrying that I'm not eating enough or asking if I'm anorexic. And in fairness, my body shape does little to dispel that: you can see my collarbones clearly and the top few bones of my ribcage without particular issue (the rest are visible if I take off my top). The shape of my body is defined by the fact that my ribcage is noticeably bigger than my waist (which you can see through my top). And I have no idea how to put on more weight - I'll be sick if I try to eat more than quadruple what I should be on a regular basis, in the first instance. Plus, given that I'm (finally) developing in certain areas (like my chest) I imagine that a lot of my body fat will wind up there (which isn't a bad thing necessarily, because I would quite like to have decent growth in that area, but it doesn't really help with the fact that I'm really quite thin everywhere else). So I'm entirely not sure what the hell to do. Any thoughts?

Just to throw it out there, there are health reasons that could prevent you from putting on weight too. Im not a doctor so I cant really say anything based on what you've described, but one of my sisters once looked like what you described, and it wasnt until her late 20s it was realised she had an overactive thyroid, which, among other things, caused her to always be incredibly thin despite what she ate.

[Jormengand]

What does your food consist of? What forms of excercise do you do regularly? Have you had tests done for T1 Diabetes or other conditions?

My diet is a vegan diet for reasons I won't compromise on, which I know doesn't help, but I regularly eat some kind of substitute-meat at about 1.5-2 times the recommended portion, some kind of carbohydrate (usually pasta, rice, chips, the relatively-standard kinds of foods for our western standard of what ordinary food is I guess) to multiple times (2-3) the recommendation and some kind of vegetable (I usually have a bit of a variety) to a decent level. For lunch I'll usually have a couple of sandwiches ("Butter" with nutritional values nigh-identical to spreadable mostly-butter substances anyway and some kind of fake meat) and I'll usually have cereal with milklike substance (I'm really selling the diet, I know) for breakfast, easily devouring triple what's listed. I also get hungry sometimes and eat entire packets of snacks at once then look and realise I've had multiple times the serving suggestion on those too.

Exercise is a problem because I don't have enough upper body strength for decent upper body exercises (I can do all of nine push-ups before becoming exhausted, just as a quick test). As for lower body, I usually get a fair deal of exercise just from my propensity for walking everywhere (I remember having the choice between spending a few pounds on a train and walking five miles to get home after a long day, and just thinking "Screw it, I'll walk") but I have difficulty sustaining high-intensity exercise just because I get exhausted quickly.

I'm pretty certain I don't have diabetes, especially since there's no family history of it, but I honestly have no idea what I do have that's causing me to eat several times what I should be with no real effect.

Well the first problem is that gaining weight is a great deal more complex than losing is. I mean you don't have any way of ensuring that the calories you're eating are actually being used by your body. You could try upping your liquid calories or setting up your gym regimen. But I don't think any of hat is gaurantee

To be honest, I don't really have a great idea of how to make my body do the things I want (I'm great to have around if bits of your body are actually damaged or suddenly stop working, but my biology knowledge doesn't extend much beyond that and a low-level qualification that I've mostly forgotten and mostly isn't relevant anyway) so I have absolutely no idea what an effective gym regimen for putting on weight and making sure I have the right body fat distribution and whatever would even look like.

Just to throw it out there, there are health reasons that could prevent you from putting on weight too. Im not a doctor so I cant really say anything based on what you've described, but one of my sisters once looked like what you described, and it wasnt until her late 20s it was realised she had an overactive thyroid, which, among other things, caused her to always be incredibly thin despite what she ate.

Yeah, this is another problem. I have no idea what's going on with my body, honestly. I have no doubt that my hormones doing abnormal things to my body at abnormal times and my unusual diet aren't helping with the "Know what the hell is going on with own body" attempts, but not knowing anything health-related either is a pain.

[Iruka]

My diet is a vegan diet for reasons I won't compromise on, which I know doesn't help, but I regularly eat some kind of substitute-meat at about 1.5-2 times the recommended portion, some kind of carbohydrate (usually pasta, rice, chips, the relatively-standard kinds of foods for our western standard of what ordinary food is I guess) to multiple times (2-3) the recommendation and some kind of vegetable (I usually have a bit of a variety) to a decent level. For lunch I'll usually have a couple of sandwiches ("Butter" with nutritional values nigh-identical to spreadable mostly-butter substances anyway and some kind of fake meat) and I'll usually have cereal with milklike substance (I'm really selling the diet, I know) for breakfast, easily devouring triple what's listed. I also get hungry sometimes and eat entire packets of snacks at once then look and realise I've had multiple times the serving suggestion on those too.

Exercise is a problem because I don't have enough upper body strength for decent upper body exercises (I can do all of nine push-ups before becoming exhausted, just as a quick test). As for lower body, I usually get a fair deal of exercise just from my propensity for walking everywhere (I remember having the choice between spending a few pounds on a train and walking five miles to get home after a long day, and just thinking "Screw it, I'll walk") but I have difficulty sustaining high-intensity exercise just because I get exhausted quickly.

I'm pretty certain I don't have diabetes, especially since there's no family history of it, but I honestly have no idea what I do have that's causing me to eat several times what I should be with no real effect.

To be honest, I don't really have a great idea of how to make my body do the things I want (I'm great to have around if bits of your body are actually damaged or suddenly stop working, but my biology knowledge doesn't extend much beyond that and a low-level qualification that I've mostly forgotten and mostly isn't relevant anyway) so I have absolutely no idea what an effective gym regimen for putting on weight and making sure I have the right body fat distribution and whatever would even look like.

Yeah, this is another problem. I have no idea what's going on with my body, honestly. I have no doubt that my hormones doing abnormal things to my body at abnormal times and my unusual diet aren't helping with the "Know what the hell is going on with own body" attempts, but not knowing anything health-related either is a pain.

Getting strong on vegan diet is definitely possible. Some strongmen are vegan, like Patrik Baboumian and several more. I cannot speak on the quality of this advice but there is a lot information out there about being vegan and athletic.

Now, your inabilty to put on any weight is a different thing. I strongly recommend getting this looked into by a medical expert. Could be just a highly unusual metabolism, could be a symptom of some kind of medical condition.

9 push-ups on the first try is not that bad by the way. I think I am already reasonably fit, but manage about 15 when I really watch my form.


On the topic of push-ups: Someone linked a video about proper form earlier. The guy stressed the importance of keeping the arms close to the body. I had understood previously that close or wide are not a matter of proper form but about which muscles you want to target. Can someone shed some more light on this?

[Honest Tiefling]

...And I'll usually have cereal with milklike substance (I'm really selling the diet, I know) for breakfast, easily devouring triple what's listed.

Out of curiosity, what milk-like substance do you favor, and how does it compare nutritionally? I have issues finding dairy I can consume.

As for your issue, have you had your thyroid checked recently? It's worth a shot. I hope you find out what is happening to you.

[paddyfool]

@Jormengand,

How old are you, out of curiosity, and how long have you had difficulty putting on weight for? I won't quiz you on the rest of the history as this isn't the place for it, just looking for a bit of context.

In any case, I second the advice to go see a doctor. They should go through this history with you in more detail, do a physical examination and probably some blood tests.

Also, don't worry about the 9 push ups - it's not a bad point to start at. Train and it will get better. Should it turn out that you're just naturally skinny, maybe look into climbing. It's a fun sport that favours people who are relatively light (on account of power to weight ratio), and it'll help you get stronger too.

[Sivarias]

I have some great news and some not so great news. As well as a question.

Great News! Now that the semester has started for real I'm able to consistantly work out. I have hit the gym for the last two days like I wanted to. Apart from some DOMS I'm feeling so great. I feel like a Greek demi-god after workouts. Just call me Percy Jackson 2.0! I've also been able to fix my schedule so I can graduate on time and not have to delay my graduation!!

But that's the bad news. I'm taking 20 hours this semester (Thank you prerequisites and 4 classes that are only offered once a year at one of the largest engineering schools in the south ) That means that while I have time for exercise. I don't have time for accurate meal prep. That means that I don't have time to weigh and measure everything. So while I'm still able to cook good stuff (chicken, cauli-mash, rice, quinoa, broccoli, etc.) I don't have time to measure amounts and record it. Frankly I'm just eyeballing it and guesstimating. Since I'm guesstimating, I can't expect the awesome results I normally do, if any results at all frankly. *shrug* I'll get over it. Right now it'll just be a routine adjustment until I get used to it or finish the semester.

Funnily enough, I have to take 9 hours over the summer, then THREE in the fall. Then I graduate. So WOOHOO!!

About DOMS. I find that after Push or Pull day (especially pull day) I don't have the full range of motion in my arms. It's EXTREMELY painful to fully extend my arm, and in fact I usually have to assist to fully extend and stretch it out (lean on a wall and such). I feel this isn't normal. I suspect it's because I'm not stretching right. For those of you who are more in the know. How should I stretch? I've heard that static stretching is bad from you and you should do "dynamic" stretching, but I have no idea how that works aside from at the beginning of your exercise doing that exercise on a low weight to warm up.

That being said, I'm still at REALLY low weights and even then it'll easily add close to 30 minutes to my workouts. I can't imagine what that would do to someone whose lifting like AFV does.

[Jormengand]

Out of curiosity, what milk-like substance do you favor, and how does it compare nutritionally? I have issues finding dairy I can consume.

I've had all sorts - soya milk, almond milk, even rice milk. Most of them are roughly comparable nutritionally, AFAICR, but you might wanna look them up. Soya milk contains phytoœstrogens which may affect - or even effect - breast growth if you have it regularly, though.

As for your issue, have you had your thyroid checked recently? It's worth a shot. I hope you find out what is happening to you.

That's something that a lot of people have suggested getting checked, so it might be a good idea. Haven't yet, though.

How old are you, out of curiosity, and how long have you had difficulty putting on weight for? I won't quiz you on the rest of the history as this isn't the place for it, just looking for a bit of context.

I'm 20. I've had difficulty putting on weight since I was a little kid (going through Bulimia for a few months probably didn't help, but doesn't seem to be related to the problem in general). My entire family eats a little bit more than normal, but one of them is a professional athlete and the rest have relatively standard healthy bodies.

[AMFV]

Jor, I'm going to be pretty honest with you, the vegan diet is probably a BIG part of your problem, barring any kind of thyroid problem, people on vegan diets are known to have problems with gaining weight. Not necessarily because of calories, but because it is more difficult to break down a lot of the veggies and veggie-derived stuff to get the caloric value from it. In the case of Clarence Kennedy and Patrick Baboumian they were both very large already when they switched over to that diet, and notably none of them have performed well since. So it's going to be an uphill battle for sure.

Pretty much the only solid advice I can give for that is to increase your intake of oils, there are plenty of very fatty vegan oils that your body will be able to absorb relatively quickly and that can definitely improve your ability to deal with stuff like that. Also if you're doing anything with hormones or anything like that (I don't remember if you were one of the folks that was or not, so please forgive me if I'm not attaching the right forum person to the right set of posts) but that can a very significant effect on how your body is dealing with fat production and retention as well as muscle development, so keep that in mind as well.


Sivarius! DOMS is pretty normal, although not being able to extend your arms out all the way is not... so much. You may be overworking in the gym, or it might just be extra soreness for a number of reasons. It's possible that you are undereating, that's the most common cause of post-workout soreness is if you don't have enough fuel to deal with the problems caused by working out. Generally though when you start having problems like you're describing it may be time for a deloading week, although if you aren't lifting heavy yet, then you probably don't need one. I would try maybe some ibuprofin, that's a pretty solid solution for post workout soreness and if it's only a couple days a week it probably won't be that big a deal, but if you have to take pills everyday then you want to adjust things cause that is not the best for you.

Also that could be caused by muscle imbalances, particularly between your tricep and bicep, which are the main movers in extending and pulling the arm in. If you have overworked and over-developed your biceps and underdeveloped your triceps, then arm extension and lockout is going to be a problem for you. What's your pushing workout like?

Yeah, definitely the more I think about it the more that sounds like muscle imbalances. So definitely that's something you should look into, and part of the problem with triceps is that basically you could do "tricep" exercises and not work them that much if you're cheating the lockout at all.


On pushups... no you don't have to keep your arms next to your body. What you don't want is for your arms to start creeping further forward so they're above your shoulders or what not. Hand placement-wise anyways. As far as muscles worked. General rule is that wider spread will involve more chest activation and narrow spread will involve more tricep activation. But that's super dependent on exactly how you are constructed and your bio mechanics. Like a slight difference in forearm length to the rest of your arm length can make a huge difference.

[Tvtyrant]

AMFV do you know of anyway to gain muscle while cutting? I am losing weight like mad but my gym performance is slow to develop and my muscle gains are minimal.

If not what weight do I need to cut to before bulking? How quickly do you gain muscle bulking vs. Cutting?

[AMFV]

AMFV do you know of anyway to gain muscle while cutting? I am losing weight like mad but my gym performance is slow to develop and my muscle gains are minimal.

You can't. Not even on Ronnie Coleman's bucket o'drugs, you can't. I mean you can do a recomp and switch some fat for muscle, but that's generally a bad plan in terms of getting results faster. Basically the reason that people do recomp things is generally that they don't want to gain any fat at all. (Like fitness models or actors who have to look good most of the time), or people who are self conscious about their weight and don't want to look worse for any period of time. But there is a reason why every single bodybuilder does a bulk-cut cycle.

So when you're cutting you can actually expect when you get further developed that you'll actually lose strength, like a ten percent strength loss is not unusual. Although undesirable.

If not what weight do I need to cut to before bulking? How quickly do you gain muscle bulking vs. Cutting?

Depends... are you prepping for a show or for a specific event? If so then what you want to do is figure out how much fat you have, in lbs, and figure out where you want to be on stage date. Assume that when you're gaining 50% (or more) of your gains are going to be just more fat. And then you can reliably lose between 1-2 lbs a week, so that should give you a very solid idea about when you need to start cutting. Especially if you do body fat measurements more regular.

If you aren't prepping for a specific event then these are the criteria you need to think about... how good are you at packing on muscle pounds? Like if you're still increasing in strength you could theoretically gain weight until you weighed however much you are comfortable with as a maximum and cut from there. But again it's mostly comfort more than anything else. If you're okay being heavier you can bulk for longer, if you don't want to be heavier, then you can't bulk for as long.

As far as how you gain, it depends completely on your genetics, your diet, and if you have "help". And I don't know any of those variables, gaining 10 lbs of muscle in a year if you are doing both a cut/bulk cycle is considered to be quite good, and I would expect more like 5 for the average person. Although the further you are from gaining as much muscle as you can the faster you'll gain.

That's about all the advice I know to give, I'm the guy who went to the gym when I was cutting and said "**** this, I'm just going to be the strongest dude in the gym". So that's what I started to work towards. So I never cut, and I have some healthy abdominal fat, although for a guy who does strongman that's actually not a bad thing. But yeah it all depends on your goals and how comfortable you are with stuff. Basically if you aren't show-prepping, start bulking once you've gotten as lean as you wanted to get, then stop bulking when you get as fat as you can handle being.

[Tvtyrant]

I started lifting back in September because I wanted to keep losing weight (I was/am immensely obese) and walking 10+ miles a day in the Oregon rain wasn't going to work. I dropped from 420 in June to 348 now, combining Keto with 4x week workouts but my muscles haven't developed much since November (beginner improvements).

I'm pretty much stuck at the same weights and intensity for a couple months, and I an getting a little frustrated as it is much lower then I did in highschool or college with much less consistency.

I feel like I am still too heavy to bulk, but I want to get stronger too. No drugs btw.

[Jormengand]

Jor, I'm going to be pretty honest with you, the vegan diet is probably a BIG part of your problem, barring any kind of thyroid problem, people on vegan diets are known to have problems with gaining weight.

The weight gain problems predate the veganism by practically the entirety of my life, so I will respectfully disagree that it's as substantial as you're making it out to be.

Pretty much the only solid advice I can give for that is to increase your intake of oils, there are plenty of very fatty vegan oils that your body will be able to absorb relatively quickly and that can definitely improve your ability to deal with stuff like that. Also if you're doing anything with hormones or anything like that (I don't remember if you were one of the folks that was or not, so please forgive me if I'm not attaching the right forum person to the right set of posts) but that can a very significant effect on how your body is dealing with fat production and retention as well as muscle development, so keep that in mind as well.

Yeah, I'm transitioning MtF (hormonally speaking, at least - "F" barely even begins to describe my actual gender) and acutely aware that a lot of the fat development may easily be going straight to my chest, and that it'll mess a bunch of other stuff up besides. I have absolutely no idea what to do about that, though.

[AMFV]

I started lifting back in September because I wanted to keep losing weight (I was/am immensely obese) and walking 10+ miles a day in the Oregon rain wasn't going to work. I dropped from 420 in June to 348 now, combining Keto with 4x week workouts but my muscles haven't developed much since November (beginner improvements).

That's a lot of weight to carry around. Conventional wisdom would tell you to keep cutting, but again it's all what you want out of your workouts and what you want as your goals. You could maybe slightly up your caloric intake and then start cutting after a short short (like 2 weeks) gaining or strengthing cycle, that might be something I would try. Like just whenever you're getting super frustrated do that, and then keep doing that until you're at point where you are able to manage that better.

Also for some people Keto can be really really bad for strength gains. Like for me personally... I can't even lift when I try Keto it kills my energy completely to the point where I can barely function, and so that could be impacting things somewhat, but from what I've heard that's different for different people.

How long are your workouts and what kind of intensity level are you managing during them? Cause that'll help too.

I feel like I am still too heavy to bulk, but I want to get stronger too. No drugs btw.

Yeah, you're in a difficult place. I would say that for somebody as heavy as you are, you've got some advantages over very thing people who are trying to cut and gain. I mean you could try doing more lifts to maximal effort that would be the typical way to keep that strength improving.

The weight gain problems predate the veganism by practically the entirety of my life, so I will respectfully disagree that it's as substantial as you're making it out to be.

I think you may be overreading how substantial I think veganism is in this case. It is something that is definitely going to make gaining more difficult, it just is. I mean I live in a world of strength athletes. Vegan strength athletes need to do a LOT more work to put on pounds than non-vegan strength athletes. And that filters down to nonathletic folk.

I mean I wouldn't say that you should stop being vegan at all. I would say that you should be aware that you are coming at weight gain from a position where you're at a disadvantage. I'd say the same thing to somebody who was wanting to gain weight and they ran five miles a day, it's something that you have to consider as something to work around. Again my recommendation would be more oils, peanut oil, coconut especially (coconut oil is like magic in some ways). And then you can use that to substitute out for things where you're not getting as much caloric density as you need for the weight gain.

Yeah, I'm transitioning MtF (hormonally speaking, at least - "F" barely even begins to describe my actual gender) and acutely aware that a lot of the fat development may easily be going straight to my chest, and that it'll mess a bunch of other stuff up besides. I have absolutely no idea what to do about that, though.

Good news is that estrogen makes it easier to gain fat and weight of that kind. I mean harder to gain muscle weight but easier to gain fatty weight, which if you're chronically underweight as you describe, would probably be a good thing. So you might try definitely oils and increasing your fat intake, that would definitely be what I would try. Even maybe to the point of doing things like straight up warming up and then drinking coconut oil, which I've done, it sucks but it's a ton of calories fairly easily. (Like I've done two tablespoons at a time, which is a couple hundred calories, tastes awful though by itself.

[Tvtyrant]

That's a lot of weight to carry around. Conventional wisdom would tell you to keep cutting, but again it's all what you want out of your workouts and what you want as your goals. You could maybe slightly up your caloric intake and then start cutting after a short short (like 2 weeks) gaining or strengthing cycle, that might be something I would try. Like just whenever you're getting super frustrated do that, and then keep doing that until you're at point where you are able to manage that better.

Also for some people Keto can be really really bad for strength gains. Like for me personally... I can't even lift when I try Keto it kills my energy completely to the point where I can barely function, and so that could be impacting things somewhat, but from what I've heard that's different for different people.

How long are your workouts and what kind of intensity level are you managing during them? Cause that'll help too.



Yeah, you're in a difficult place. I would say that for somebody as heavy as you are, you've got some advantages over very thing people who are trying to cut and gain. I mean you could try doing more lifts to maximal effort that would be the typical way to keep that strength improving.

Not a bad idea honestly. Could add some oats and peanut butter for a while, then go back in a few weeks once I see some results.

Intensity wise not fantastic, my workout partner is not enthusiastic at all and would stop going if I made it any harder then it is. Basically we do:
Bicycle
Bench
Inclined Bench
Rope Resistance for Biceps and Triceps 8 minutes each
Leg machines
100 reaches
Walking lunges
Fin

Or:
Bicycle
Squat
Good Morning
Rows
Chinups
OHP
Skullcrushers
Planks
Fin

About 1 1/2 hours now, used to take 2.

[Sivarias]

If you promise not to laugh at the weights I'm "tossing" around, I can share my workout plan with you.

Spoiler: Sivarias's Workout

Show

Google Sheets here
It's a modified PPL-PPL 6 day a week program. I have access to the school gym 5 days a week and it's actually better for my mental health if I go the the gym 5-6 times a week. That's why I'm not on a beginner 3-day a week program.

I'm trying to cut and bulk at the same time. I know it's impossible to get any serious gains when you are cutting, but I'm finally getting my 200g of protein a day. I'm hitting between 1800-2000 calories a day, and I plan on staying on the cut until I'm comfortable looking in the mirror. Which I suspect will be around the 200lb mark. (I'm 6' dude and my family is all very large framed. Less classic athletic and more viking tree-trunk. It helps that I'm on testosterone for my hypogonadism. (I recently took an inbody and found I've put on 5 lbs of skeletal muscle mass in the last 2 months )

[AMFV]

Not a bad idea honestly. Could add some oats and peanut butter for a while, then go back in a few weeks once I see some results.

Intensity wise not fantastic, my workout partner is not enthusiastic at all and would stop going if I made it any harder then it is. Basically we do:
Bicycle
Bench
Inclined Bench
Rope Resistance for Biceps and Triceps 8 minutes each
Leg machines
100 reaches
Walking lunges
Fin

Or:
Bicycle
Squat
Good Morning
Rows
Chinups
OHP
Skullcrushers
Planks
Fin

About 1 1/2 hours now, used to take 2.

Mostly what I was meaning in terms of intensity and stuff is like your rep ranges. Like when you do OHP are you doing a weight that you could do comfortably for ten reps and then stopping at ten? Are you doing a weight that you can do for seven reps going to failure and then going to where literally you're forced to dump the weight cause you're about to drop it on your head. Or going for speed and explosiveness. That sort of thing is really what's going to determine your strength gain, for most people.

If you promise not to laugh at the weights I'm "tossing" around, I can share my workout plan with you.

Spoiler: Sivarias's Workout

Show

Google Sheets here
It's a modified PPL-PPL 6 day a week program. I have access to the school gym 5 days a week and it's actually better for my mental health if I go the the gym 5-6 times a week. That's why I'm not on a beginner 3-day a week program.

That doesn't sound too bad, I would say that looking at your program I can't see necessarily why you'd have an imbalance. But I think that what I would do if I were in your shoes is instead of doing a push/pull day, the second half of the week, I'd do another pushing day until you feel that your triceps are starting to match up, or until you stop having that same soreness after pull days. I would try about a month at first, but that's just me personally.

I'm trying to cut and bulk at the same time. I know it's impossible to get any serious gains when you are cutting, but I'm finally getting my 200g of protein a day. I'm hitting between 1800-2000 calories a day, and I plan on staying on the cut until I'm comfortable looking in the mirror. Which I suspect will be around the 200lb mark. (I'm 6' dude and my family is all very large framed. Less classic athletic and more viking tree-trunk. It helps that I'm on testosterone for my hypogonadism. (I recently took an inbody and found I've put on 5 lbs of skeletal muscle mass in the last 2 months )

Well, recomping is a thing, it's just less efficient. Like I said there are definitely reasons to do it. Like if you don't want to gain a bunch of weight to also gain the muscle. Which is fine, I mean if you aren't prepping for a specific show or event, then it shouldn't matter if you're squeezing out slightly less gains than you otherwise might be.

Test definitely helps. I can tell you that if you had been all out bulking 10 lbs wouldn't be unusual for your first time on test and lifting. In a two monthperiod. Now, you'd have put on a considerable bit of fat with that though, so again everything is your comfort level for that sort of thing.

[Sivarias]

That doesn't sound too bad, I would say that looking at your program I can't see necessarily why you'd have an imbalance. But I think that what I would do if I were in your shoes is instead of doing a push/pull day, the second half of the week, I'd do another pushing day until you feel that your triceps are starting to match up, or until you stop having that same soreness after pull days. I would try about a month at first, but that's just me personally.

Well, recomping is a thing, it's just less efficient. Like I said there are definitely reasons to do it. Like if you don't want to gain a bunch of weight to also gain the muscle. Which is fine, I mean if you aren't prepping for a specific show or event, then it shouldn't matter if you're squeezing out slightly less gains than you otherwise might be.

Test definitely helps. I can tell you that if you had been all out bulking 10 lbs wouldn't be unusual for your first time on test and lifting. In a two monthperiod. Now, you'd have put on a considerable bit of fat with that though, so again everything is your comfort level for that sort of thing.

Thanks for the tips. I try to push to failure while still in those rep ranges. After some trial and error this week, it was definitely a lack of proper warming up. Now I'm making sure to stretch every day, and in some cases between exercises or even sets if I'm experiencing any tightness. It's definitely a lot better.

I'm starting to run into lower-back pain issues again on leg day. I had a herniated disc at one point and while I don't think I still have it (I'm no longer in constant nauseating pain anyway) anytime I put serious pressure on my lower back I'll get a pain spike warning me I'm doing to much. The issue is I need to strengthen those support muscles because they've atrophied from desk work and poor posture, as well as being extremely cautious about flair ups. I think I'm slowly learning to discern between "Push through this pain" and "stop before you hurt yourself again." It's just frustrating that my lower back is the limiting factor with all of my leg weight.

In other news I just finished my first week of nutrition and exercise as well. Even when I was hungry and wanted a snack, I resisted. Even when I felt like hell today I still hit the gym. It's good to feel like I'm getting into the swing of things here. Two rest days, and then I'm back in the saddle. Having my hormones approaching normal is DEFINITELY making a difference in everything. I'm actually hungry now, rather than eating because I'm supposed to be. I've got the energy to get that explosive power. The willpower is there to push through that ONE LAST REP while I'm shaking and tired. It's just great.

Also, for those looking for a protein powder or source, Forza Pro Chocolate Mint tastes the EXACT same as mint cookies and cream ice cream. I have to stop myself at two scoops post workout, it's SOOO good.

[Cozzer]

In other news I just finished my first week of nutrition and exercise as well. Even when I was hungry and wanted a snack, I resisted. Even when I felt like hell today I still hit the gym. It's good to feel like I'm getting into the swing of things here. Two rest days, and then I'm back in the saddle. Having my hormones approaching normal is DEFINITELY making a difference in everything. I'm actually hungry now, rather than eating because I'm supposed to be. I've got the energy to get that explosive power. The willpower is there to push through that ONE LAST REP while I'm shaking and tired. It's just great.

That's great! My leg has been healing way slower than I would have expected, but I've managed to restart my usual workouts a few days ago, and it makes all the difference in how I feel, even emotionally.

[AMFV]

Thanks for the tips. I try to push to failure while still in those rep ranges. After some trial and error this week, it was definitely a lack of proper warming up. Now I'm making sure to stretch every day, and in some cases between exercises or even sets if I'm experiencing any tightness. It's definitely a lot better.

Stretching can be pretty key, something else that might help is running through the movements a few times before executing them with heavy weights. Like barbell squat with just the bar for a few sets (I usually don't even count for those but I do something like 5-10, pretty slowly) just to open your hips up and make sure that your set up is really good.

That's especially important if you're getting pain in places you ought not to be, like back pain on squat day and stuff. Although RDLs could potentially be your culprit there.

I'm starting to run into lower-back pain issues again on leg day. I had a herniated disc at one point and while I don't think I still have it (I'm no longer in constant nauseating pain anyway) anytime I put serious pressure on my lower back I'll get a pain spike warning me I'm doing to much. The issue is I need to strengthen those support muscles because they've atrophied from desk work and poor posture, as well as being extremely cautious about flair ups. I think I'm slowly learning to discern between "Push through this pain" and "stop before you hurt yourself again." It's just frustrating that my lower back is the limiting factor with all of my leg weight.

I would get a belt, honestly. Especially if you've already had some lower back problems. There's not really a strong reason not to play with a belt if you're already having problems. I mean you don't have to use it all the time, just when you start having problems. especially if it's a good size powerlifting one. Although that will be slightly worse for some movements. I mean the best way to do it probably for you would be to have two belts, like one for powerlifting movements and then one for more dynamic movements, that way you can give yourself proper back support and avoid aggravating a previously injured disk.

In other news I just finished my first week of nutrition and exercise as well. Even when I was hungry and wanted a snack, I resisted. Even when I felt like hell today I still hit the gym. It's good to feel like I'm getting into the swing of things here. Two rest days, and then I'm back in the saddle. Having my hormones approaching normal is DEFINITELY making a difference in everything. I'm actually hungry now, rather than eating because I'm supposed to be. I've got the energy to get that explosive power. The willpower is there to push through that ONE LAST REP while I'm shaking and tired. It's just great.

Also, for those looking for a protein powder or source, Forza Pro Chocolate Mint tastes the EXACT same as mint cookies and cream ice cream. I have to stop myself at two scoops post workout, it's SOOO good.

That is good to hear, definitely being able to eat and getting that sort of stuff sorted out is probably really important.

[Florian]

@Jorm:

Gaining weight in a healthy way can be more trouble than trying to lose weight. I've been "gifted" with a highly efficient metabolism that manages to convert nearly any kind of food and not build up fat as a body mass, which is simply necessary to convert into muscle with exercise. So, yeah, at your age, I was nearly 2 meters tall and skinny as a whip.

Body weight training, like the previously mentioned Convict Conditioning, is a good start. Keep in mind that there's a rough 3 to 1 ratio when converting mass into muscle, so take this into account with your diet, else there is nothing to "burn" and convert.

Being vegan is actually not that much of a hindrance, you're "just" as often as not eating "too healthy" for your own good in this case. You want raw sources of protein and fat to provide your body with something to actually work with and that can be done with Tofu, Nuts (Cashew stand out here) and fruit like Avocado that have a high amount of natural fats. Funny thing, but unfiltered beer, especially the ones heavily based on malt and yeast, can have a high nutritional value.

Attila Hildmann did great work covering the topic of vegan lifestyle and the effects on the body and training development, the books Vegan for Fit and Vegan for Youth should be available in english (to my knowledge), and you should have no problems getting your hands on Convict Conditioning and The Naked Warrior.

Point is: It is frustratingly hard to pull thru under these starting conditions. I'm now twice your age and I'm at it for a while now, surprising people when talking about weight as 200pt in muscle look and feel different than in fat, while still having not found out the limits of abuse my body is able to handle.

Edit: To put emphasis on this - no, it is no fun and hard work going up against your basic body type.

[drakir_nosslin]

On the topic of push-ups: Someone linked a video about proper form earlier. The guy stressed the importance of keeping the arms close to the body. I had understood previously that close or wide are not a matter of proper form but about which muscles you want to target. Can someone shed some more light on this?

You can typically generate more force with your arms close to your body, which is one of the reasons. The further out from your body you position your hands the more difficult it becomes to keep your elbows directly stacked above your wrists as you descend (this is something which wasn't discussed in the video, but is critical if you want to build to more advanced pushups such as plance etc.), as you need more shoulder mobility and strength to do so.

The wider hand position also reduces the distance you'll move your body, reducing the amount of work done, drecreasing the ganiz.

There is some benefit in wider hand positioning if you're looking to target different muscle groups, but IMO that's a waste of time. Learn to do a proper pushup instead, with good form (including proper plank/hollow position which I didn't see in the video), and increase the difficulty over time and you'll build a very strong upper body if it is coupled with some pulling motion (e.g rope climbs).

For pushing variation instead look at the dip, it puts larger reqs on mobility and engages different muscle groups.