New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!

[Psyren]

I don't think I've actually read a compelling argument that she was a fully fleshed out realized character with dynamic character arcs.

Of course you haven't, because "fully fleshed out" is a very subjective term that means different things to different people. You can't argue preferences. You can give all the reasons in the world for holding yours, but other people will still have theirs, and there is no right or wrong.

That situation does not end in a negative outcome for her. That results in Finn losing face. It also wasn't a negative outcome anyway since it acts as a catalyst for her starting adventure.

"It worked out okay in the end" does not stop it from being negative initially. He successfully tricked her, because she acts (and says out loud what she's thinking) without considering things all the way through first.

Luke establishes the baseline competence of the world. Anakin further develops it and both are regarded as something akin to prodigies.

And she can't be a prodigy too because...?

And FYI, both Luke and Anakin were also "backworld yokels," - even moreso than she was in fact.

[Dienekes]

And she can't be a prodigy too because...?

And FYI, both Luke and Anakin were also "backworld yokels," - even moreso than she was in fact.

She can be. In fact I suspect her to. The difference is as backwater yokel progidies we get exactly what power she should have. They are not able to actually use force powers except maybe be guided by it to make their reactions faster. They aren't using the force to pull lightsabers they aren't overpowering Siths or even knock off Siths. They aren't using the Jedi mind-trick on people. All of that required training with a Jedi master and months or years of practice. Practice Rey does not have. And she uses these complex skills almost instantly whenever the plot demands.

If they wanted her to be an adept force user right off the bat. Cool. 100% for it. It would be great to not start a Star Wars franchise with a backworld yokel. It's been done. Start with a Jedi padawan going on awesome missions.

But don't start as a backworld yokel and then act like a force adept.

[Psyren]

She can be. In fact I suspect her to. The difference is as backwater yokel progidies we get exactly what power she should have. They are not able to actually use force powers except maybe be guided by it to make their reactions faster. They aren't using the force to pull lightsabers they aren't overpowering Siths or even knock off Siths. They aren't using the Jedi mind-trick on people. All of that required training with a Jedi master and months or years of practice. Practice Rey does not have. And she uses these complex skills almost instantly whenever the plot demands.

Neither of those two had the Mind Trick demonstrated (quite forcefully) on them, in order for them to pick up on using it. So you can't say for sure that they wouldn't have been able to learn it the same way she did, had they been subject to what she was.

As for beating Kylo - you forget that mere moments prior he took a Wookie Bowcaster bolt directly to the chest - a weapon that we previously saw wipe out at least two soldiers in a single shot. It's frankly amazing he was able to stand, let alone fight. Had he been at full strength, he'd have likely mopped the floor with her, just as he did in the forest earlier.

So these feats from her, while cool, are no more remarkable than her predecessors.

[Peelee]

Neither of those two had the Mind Trick demonstrated (quite forcefully) on them, in order for them to pick up on using it. So you can't say for sure that they wouldn't have been able to learn it the same way she did, had they been subject to what she was.

As for beating Kylo - you forget that mere moments prior he took a Wookie

Wookiee. 2 E's.

Also, Heir to the Jedi and Rebels both establish the difficulty of learning at least one Force power - telekinesis - as being incredibly difficult, and both Luke and Ezra had direct tutelage from actual, trained Jedi. Both have markedly difficult time making even the smallest object move, unfettered. Rey Force grabs a lightsaber that Ben was also trying to Force grab. She objectively learns Force powers too fast. Unless any reason for this is explicitly given, it's safe to chalk it up to bad writing.

[Mordar]

That's more on Abrams and Kennedy than any specific issue with the medium. TFA's problems, for better or worse, don't really stem from politics so much as awkward pacing and casting choices. You could have easily used the new republic as a set piece for more than an explosion. It's just they wanted nothing but Stormtroopers and X-Wings and orange pilot suits and TIE fighters and literally nothing else, not even the extra layer of ancillary stuff that sold the concept of the world in A New Hope like Y-Wings for a second model or multiple Droid types in the same series. TFA isn't just a retread, it's a lazy one that doesn't put in one iota more of effort than it needs.

I agree that instead of having the opening film of the trilogy wipe out all of the civilized new Federation they might have done something a little different...like continuing the slow build of the First Order and the efforts of the new rebels to Resist...and the politics of the situation being that as long as the Order doesn't violate the Treaty of Wherever, the Federation will not act against them.

Then the events of TFA would center on something of a chess match...and with that as the backdrop we get introduced to Rey and Finn and Poe...but instead of the Federation and Starkiller both being destroyed, instead we see the FO win a bit and get the final McGuffin they need for Starkiller...and we're left with dead Han, Rey off to find Luke, and Leia/Poe leading a desperate effort to stop the completion of Starkiller. We get to have more time with the heroes and villians, we don't see the whole universe changed (when we never did get to see what it looked liked after RotJ), and we can see some of the build up of the Order instead of them starting as a full-fledged Foozul from scene one. Then in TLJ we could see Starkiller in action and that spurs Luke to do...something...which will get us to the final conflict in IX...which should NOT be force-ghost Luke and force-ghost Snoke working through Kylo Ren/Rey (in whichever order). And it should even less be Kylo Ren turning on Snoke at the last second to save Rey.

After some consideration, I say The First Order is the MS of TFA...achieving limitless power without effort, accomplished solely by author fiat. And worse yet, in a way that makes everyone not-First Order look like complete fools.

- M

[Aeson]

And all you have to do is make unfounded assumptions in order to impose an unwarranted literalism on the conversion between film time and in-universe time. There's an applicable saying about foolish consistency.

If the film explicitly tells me that only one minute has passed within the film universe between one scene and another, I do not believe that it is at all unreasonable to claim that in fact only one minute has passed within the film universe regardless of how long the film spends on that one minute.

The first time Vader aims at Luke is just before Luke hears Obi-Wan. You can see Vader doing that twisting-the-dial motion that TIE pilots do when aiming. We subsequently see Luke through Vader's eyes at the same distance from which Wedge was shot down. All this well before R2 is shot.

There is absolutely no way for you to prove that that is an aborted attack run rather than Vader starting to set up his initial burst at Luke.

Also, "well before" R2 gets shot? Try "at most ten seconds before," at least in in-universe time. It's inside the bounds established by the Death Star being 30 seconds from firing position and the Death Star reaching firing position, and it's inside the bounds established by Luke turning on his targeting computer, seeing that he's ~36,000 range units from the target, hearing Obi-Wan Kenobi, and turning off his targeting computer at ~20,000 range units.

Regardless, you have chosen to ignore reason in favor of emotion; fine. We will not get anywhere by continuing this line of discussion.

[lunaticfringe]

Wookiee. 2 E's.

Also, Heir to the Jedi and Rebels both establish the difficulty of learning at least one Force power - telekinesis - as being incredibly difficult, and both Luke and Ezra had direct tutelage from actual, trained Jedi. Both have markedly difficult time making even the smallest object move, unfettered. Rey Force grabs a lightsaber that Ben was also trying to Force grab. She objectively learns Force powers too fast. Unless any reason for this is explicitly given, it's safe to chalk it up to bad writing.

At least learning them the dogmatic Jedi way. An argument could be made that Rey is utilising the force with emotion which is shown time & time again to be easier and more powerful.

[Peelee]

At least learning them the dogmatic Jedi way. An argument could be made that Rey is utilising the force with emotion which is shown time & time again to be easier and more powerful.

That's a pretty good point.

[Lethologica]

If the film explicitly tells me that only one minute has passed within the film universe between one scene and another, I do not believe that it is at all unreasonable to claim that in fact only one minute has passed within the film universe regardless of how long the film spends on that one minute.

First, that's not the same at all as assessing that if the film spends ten minutes on that one minute, every second of those ten minutes occurs at 1/10th speed. Which is explicitly the fundamental assumption of your literalist argument.

Second, films are not wholly consistent. They're not filmed that way and they're not meant to be viewed that way, and while people can and do try, it's a lot easier to delude yourself trying to force an unwarranted consistency upon a story than accepting the existence of inconsistencies as a mostly-unavoidable element of storytelling. The bomb in Independence Day goes off in thirty seconds, and Will Smith takes two minutes to get them out of the mothership. It's not because those two minutes happened at 1/4 speed. It just happens that way.

Meanwhile, you're using that as an excuse to ignore the film explicitly telling you through dialogue and presentation that Luke's behavior is special. You can call it shallow or you can call it emotional, but you can't deny its existence.

There is absolutely no way for you to prove that that is an aborted attack run rather than Vader starting to set up his initial burst at Luke.

Vader has a separate aiming sequence before the shot on R2. "You can't prove it" isn't much of a comeback, and I don't actually care whether Vader had two setups or one exceptionally long setup anyway--the number of sequences and the time between them (and the content between them) is more important.

Regardless, you have chosen to ignore reason in favor of emotion; fine. We will not get anywhere by continuing this line of discussion.

I'm sure that's how you see it, and others can draw their own conclusions.

[Dienekes]

Neither of those two had the Mind Trick demonstrated (quite forcefully) on them, in order for them to pick up on using it. So you can't say for sure that they wouldn't have been able to learn it the same way she did, had they been subject to what she was.

As for beating Kylo - you forget that mere moments prior he took a Wookie Bowcaster bolt directly to the chest - a weapon that we previously saw wipe out at least two soldiers in a single shot. It's frankly amazing he was able to stand, let alone fight. Had he been at full strength, he'd have likely mopped the floor with her, just as he did in the forest earlier.

So these feats from her, while cool, are no more remarkable than her predecessors.

True, she did have it used on her. I sure do love the fact I was able to perform a perfect right hook after I was punched in the face.

Luke took days training with Obiwan months with Yoda and years by himself to be able to perform the mind trick once. If the key to learning a force power is to have it used on you, once. Then the training with Yoda would look like this:

-Lift you up, Yoda will.
-Gaah I'm flying in the air. Now I know what it feels like to be lifted I can lift everything. Whoops my ship sank give me two seconds Yoda I got this.

-The mind trick, important it is. Use it on you, I will.
-Wow that mind trick thing felt super weird. But thankfully now I know it. Wow this Jedi stuff is easy!

[some time later]
-Yo Boba. You will stop taking Han to your ship.
-I will stop taking Han to my ship.
-You will help me shoot Darth Vader in his clearly broken breathing machine.
-I will help you shoot Darth Vader.

I forget nothing. And that works as an explanation for that event. Here's the rub. You pile on justification after justification why your hero is able to handle things quicker and easier than everyone else and you're left without a character. You're left with cheesy a power fantasy.

The way Rey is set up as always succeeding. Always having some lame justification why she can do everything better than those who have been working much harder and much longer than them. And you're left without a character I actually would compare with either Luke or Anakin.

The character she reminds me most of is Richard Rahl from the Sword of Truth. I hate Richard Rahl.

[Keltest]

Wasn't it at least implied that The Force is deliberately and directly setting up Rey (and, I guess, Kylo) towards some big grand Destiny of some sort? The will of The Force is certainly a thing in Star Wars, so its not inconceivable to me that Rey was actually being helped by The Force, and if she tries to go off the road chosen for her, she will have a harder time.

[Psyren]

True, she did have it used on her. I sure do love the fact I was able to perform a perfect right hook after I was punched in the face.

You're comparing a physical punch to psychic powers that involve mental contact. That's nonsense.

He literally forced his mind into hers right in front of you. And, by the way, we know the connection was bi-directional, because she was able to see his insecurities. If you want to blame someone for her learning force stuff too fast, blame Kylo himself.

Or you could, I dunno, wish on a shooting star for a retcon or something, I don't care.

[Dienekes]

You're comparing a physical punch to psychic powers that involve mental contact. That's nonsense.

He literally forced his mind into hers right in front of you. And, by the way, we know the connection was bi-directional, because she was able to see his insecurities. If you want to blame someone for her learning force stuff too fast, blame Kylo himself.

Or you could, I dunno, wish on a shooting star for a retcon or something, I don't care.

Yes it was two-way. Something no other mind-trick in the movies had any hint at being. In a way to get her to one-up the villain. Because the hero can never just be powerless and still have their dignity. They have to actually make the villain look pathetic in the process.

It's why, for all the problems of the originals (and there were many. So so many), there's a reason why I liked Leia way more than Rey. And I felt sympathy and fear for her. When Leia is a prisoner to Vader she holds true to her beliefs in the face of destruction. She tries to do the right thing in an impossible situation. She even manages to trick the villains momentarily. But the villains are still very serious, she is still totally screwed. But she keeps her morals in the face of the destruction of an entire planet.

Rey gets put in the same situation. She makes not-Vader look like a bitch. Never really gets her morals tested beside some halfhearted attempt at saying he can teach her. And ultimately, by your interpretation of events gets better super powers from the event.

I'm not going to wish for a retcon. And I know who to blame: the writers.

Now despite my overlong responses. TFA is an ok movie with good visuals, some great acting, and some very interesting concepts. But the writing is just average to bad. From Rey being basically Jedi Silver Age Superman. Finn, the child soldier, acting more like a bumbling sidekick. R2 waking up for no given reason. That scene that looked like it came out of Hitchhiker's Guide when they're chased by murder death balls. And another retread of the Death Star.

And sadly that's what I have stuck in my head from this movie. I hope I enjoy the next one more.

[Mechalich]

Wasn't it at least implied that The Force is deliberately and directly setting up Rey (and, I guess, Kylo) towards some big grand Destiny of some sort? The will of The Force is certainly a thing in Star Wars, so its not inconceivable to me that Rey was actually being helped by The Force, and if she tries to go off the road chosen for her, she will have a harder time.

It was, at least, Snoke says something like 'there has been an awakening' during TFA, which presumably means Rey. At the same time active intervention on behalf of the Force is basically a literal deus ex machina, and not something to highlight as good storytelling.

[Kitten Champion]

It was, at least, Snoke says something like 'there has been an awakening' during TFA, which presumably means Rey. At the same time active intervention on behalf of the Force is basically a literal deus ex machina, and not something to highlight as good storytelling.

No, a deus ex machina isn't about the gods intervening in any capacity whatsoever, if that were so then you could argue that, say, Heracles is one simply by existing.

A deus ex machina is a plot device wherein a new element is suddenly introduced into a story which resolves a seemingly unsolvable problem. Neither the Force nor Rey constitute such an element in The Force Awakens.

[Psyren]

Yes it was two-way. Something no other mind-trick in the movies had any hint at being.

When in the other movies was it used on another Force-sensitive? And in particular, when was it used to pull info directly from one mind into another, as opposed to merely being Suggestion?

See, there are very easy ways to explain all the points you bring up (points at quote in signature) but you seem to insist on the writers spoonfeeding you all of it, or bust. There's only so many minutes in a movie, man.

[Dienekes]

When in the other movies was it used on another Force-sensitive? And in particular, when was it used to pull info directly from one mind into another, as opposed to merely being Suggestion?

See, there are very easy ways to explain all the points you bring up (points at quote in signature) but you seem to insist on the writers spoonfeeding you all of it, or bust. There's only so many minutes in a movie, man.

No, I'm saying that they shouldn't write a protagonist that has their problems solved by handwaving powers at them. Whether or not the backward mind meld thing is how she learned the mind trick is honestly kind of irrelevant. The problem is that she learns the super secret power so easily to solve her problems right away. And this happens repeatedly throughout the movie. She needs to leave the planet? She stumbles upon the freaking Millennium Falcon and gets the ability to pilot it. She's interrogated by the main villain? No worries she points out how much of a whiny little bitch he is. She's bound and being guarded? Doesn't matter, she's got a spell for that. She's in a force pulling contest with the villain? Puh, like that emo can do anything right, she of course wins the Force contest. She has to actually fight this guy? He's already been shot, and she gets to have her face glow with the Force and she beats him all while there are no real stakes.

That's the problem. That's why she's Richard Rahl, and not an actually well written character.

And while I like the Giant, I don't even agree with that quote. If the text (or movie, or whatever) requires you to make assumptions to get it to work, that's fine. But those assumptions then have to actually follow through with the internal logic of what has been seen before. To get your interpretation to work, it makes Yoda look like the ****tiest teacher. It trivializes the effort earlier protagonists had to go through, which took movies and years to not quite be as competent as Rey is after, what, a day or two off Jakuu, or however you spell it. Screw it, off not-Tatooine.

If you need time to explain how your characters function. Maybe, I don't know, just spitballing here, cut out that stupid scene with the death ball monsters. Seriously. Those were stupid.

[Cikomyr]

I like the idea that Rey was actually delving in the Dark Side at the end of TFA. She was experiencing fury and fear against Kylo Ren and..

I could see her mindrape the knowledge of the Force and Lightsaber out of him. Both when he tries to touch her mind, and when they lock swords during the climax of the movie.

[Psyren]

The problem is that she learns the super secret power so easily to solve her problems right away.
...
She's interrogated by the main villain? No worries she points out how much of a whiny little bitch he is. She's bound and being guarded? Doesn't matter, she's got a spell for that.

That's Kylo's fault for literally demonstrating the technique instead using more traditional interrogation/torture. Kinda like how Neo should have just killed Agent Smith instead of jumping inside him, he dun goofed.

This is to say nothing of the fact that the Force itself is a living entity, and its limitations of imparting knowledge are currently unknown.

She needs to leave the planet? She stumbles upon the freaking Millennium Falcon and gets the ability to pilot it.

She knew it was there, there was no "stumbling." As for piloting it, it's junk and she's a junker, it's not a big stretch.

She's in a force pulling contest with the villain? Puh, like that emo can do anything right, she of course wins the Force contest.

You mean the bad guy that was shot in the chest with a Wookie Bowcaster? (Bolding because you apparently missed it the first time.)

And while I like the Giant, I don't even agree with that quote.

Your wrongness is noted.

[Lethologica]

She knew it was there, there was no "stumbling." As for piloting it, it's junk and she's a junker, it's not a big stretch.

Uh. I'll just go down to the local junkyard and ask whoever I find there to pull out his best high-speed-car-chase tricks, shall I?

As you have previously, and accurately, noted, Rey's background is as a scavenger. Scavenging and piloting are very different activities.

[Daimbert]

The Rey-haters amuse me greatly. Disney is crying all the way to the bank.

I own or have owned multiple copies of all of the OT and even the PT. I usually rewatch all of the movies, including the PT, at least once a year. I have most of the original EU novels, and re-read some of them at least once a year, if not more so. I own a second set of the X-wing novels because I re-read them multiple times a year. So I suppose you could call me a pretty big Star Wars fan.

TFA, including the issues with Rey, annoyed me so much that I have yet to buy or watch Rogue One despite seeing it on sale while browsing. I am apathetic towards the new movie. I have no interest in buying any of the works in this new EU. I recently rewatched all of the movies again and, despite owning and having taken out TFA, at the end decided not to bother watching it because I didn't think I'd enjoy that, despite having watched the PT as part of that.

So TFA has made me move from caring about Star Wars to not caring at all. That CAN'T be what they wanted. And Rey's poor characterization -- whether or not she's a Mary Sue -- is a big part of that. Overall, Poe does nothing in the movie, Finn is idiotic comic relief, Rey never faces any real challenges, especially when we see how they're resolved, and Kylo Ren is turned into at best the worst aspects of Anakin but more reasonably is completely defanged as a villain/antagonist because of how Rey defeats him, which should NEVER have happened regardless of injuries. And his killing Han derails a promising arc and doesn't really add much to the character, either as a villain/antagonist or as someone who might be redeemed or have his own arc in the movies. The more I think about TFA, the less I like it, which CAN'T be good.

It might make money, but it has a LOT of problems, not the least of which is that it tries to ape the original Star Wars without getting why the elements it's copying were actually good, and so they end up being there but doing nothing like what the original movie did.

Luke flew better than Han, despite him being years ahead of him in actual spaceflight experience.
Luke fought better than Han and Chewbacca

As far as I can recall, Luke never flew better than Han in any directly comparable situation in the OT, and only arguably fought better than them in RotJ, after he was established as being fully trained as a Jedi, which is established in universe as giving better melee combat skills.

And I know these aren't yours, but even the arguments that he outflew the trained pilots in Star Wars are pretty weak; yes, his dodging skills make Vader think that he has the Force, but he does and is trained in that and yes, that would make him better, but other than dodging Vader he doesn't make that much greater a contribution to the battle using those purported skills, outside of blowing up the Death Star. And as for Rogue Squadron, part of that was his ability and part of that was his notoriety as being the pilot who blew up the Death Star. Wedge is also a a major part of that squadron, and in the EU takes it over based on both his skill and his fame as a pilot.

Luke is, in general, handled better because he has flaws, screws up, and doesn't overshadow everyone else. Throughout the entire Death Star scenes, he isn't any better than anyone else is at anything, even at shooting TIEs in the escape. And in the battle, he doesn't do anything that anyone else couldn't do or even do better until the very end, when the movie is clear that he is tapping directly and deliberately into the Force to do it, with things that either Obi-Wan is directly guiding him to do, or things that he likely tapped into subconsciously before on Tatooine. Rey doesn't really have that backstory, at least not yet, for that, and while the obvious fix is to establish that she was trained a bit and mindwiped to forget about it so that she'd be simply accessing things that she had once forgotten, the damage to her and especially to Kylo is already done.

[Dienekes]

That's Kylo's fault for literally demonstrating the technique instead using more traditional interrogation/torture. Kinda like how Neo should have just killed Agent Smith instead of jumping inside him, he dun goofed.

That's the writers fault for setting up a handwave excuse to get their protagonist out of trouble with no real effort.

She knew it was there, there was no "stumbling." As for piloting it, it's junk and she's a junker, it's not a big stretch.

That's not how that works, and you know that's not how that works. Taking apart broken cars doesn't mean you know how to drive.

You mean the bad guy that was shot in the chest with a Wookie Bowcaster? (Bolding because you apparently missed it the first time.)

Ok well:

Wookiee. 2 E's.

and

I forget nothing. And that works as an explanation for that event. Here's the rub. You pile on justification after justification why your hero is able to handle things quicker and easier than everyone else and you're left without a character. You're left with a cheesy power fantasy.

Bolded, because apparently you aren't even reading what I'm writing.

I don't understand how I can explain this any easier for you. That you can find justification for everything Rey does is not the problem. That the story bends over backwards to make these justifications for why the protagonist is so great and can so easily handle everything is the problem.

That the ease at which she accomplishes anything makes all the older protagonists and teachers look worse and necessarily idiotic is the problem.

Here's are argument in brief. So hopefully the pattern is recognized.

Me: These justifications for how she can accomplish so much so easily make the story weaker and the character not have any stakes or problems.

You: Here are the justifications for why all those events happened.

Me: Yes. Those are the justifications that doesn't change the weak story and character structure. Those are the problems.

You: Here's more justifications.

We're not arguing the same point. You're talking about in universe, I'm arguing about story structure.

Your wrongness is noted.

As you, yourself mentioned earlier. Opinions and orifices. Giant's great. He's also not Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, or even Martin. I don't have to agree with everything he says.

[Peelee]

This is to say nothing of the fact that the Force itself is a living entity, and its limitations of imparting knowledge are currently unknown.

[citation needed]

The Living Force is a philosophy, like the Unifying Force. Nobody ever actually suggests The Force is alive. In fact, two Jedi of the Old Republic, a thousand generations in, both describe it as an energy field that surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the Galaxy together. When midi-chlorians are (poorly) introduced, they do not create The Force and are not themselves The Force, they can just communicate between The Force and their host.

The Force is not alive.

As you, yourself mentioned earlier. Opinions and orifices. Giant's great. He's also not Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, or even Martin. I don't have to agree with everything he says..

Frankly, I don't think even Shakespeare is all that great.

[Yana]

Just curious, but why does every single thread about the Star Wars sequels have to devolve into... whatever this is? Can't we discuss the trailer based upon its own merits?

[Dienekes]

Just curious, but why does every single thread about the Star Wars sequels have to devolve into... whatever this is? Can't we discuss the trailer based upon its own merits?

Star Wars fans are passionate idiots. Myself included.

[Hopeless]

I'm more inclined to blame Abram's Mystery Box!

I suspect Rey was left in the care of someone other than Unkar Platt and that someone trained Rey but lacking a light sabre merely focused more on melee and unarmed combat for that side of her training.

So Kylo was merely caught unawares since he had no reason to suspect Rey had any training but that would have explained her skill in that area something that brings her comment about Luke Skywalker being a myth into something more relevant if she heard about him from her tutor?

However they didn't explain themselves and maybe we learn whoever brought Rey to Jakku had good reason to do so given Snoke shows an unhealthy interest in her!

So assuming she actually was a Padawan whose master died before he could complete her training when we first meet her would that redeem what we watched?

[Keltest]

[citation needed]

The Living Force is a philosophy, like the Unifying Force. Nobody ever actually suggests The Force is alive. In fact, two Jedi of the Old Republic, a thousand generations in, both describe it as an energy field that surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the Galaxy together. When midi-chlorians are (poorly) introduced, they do not create The Force and are not themselves The Force, they can just communicate between The Force and their host.

The Force is not alive.

"You mean it controls our actions?"
"Partially, but it also obeys our commands."

Whether or not it is "alive" in a strict sense, its pretty definitely described, in its establishing scene, as being able to direct people's actions.

[Daimbert]

So assuming she actually was a Padawan whose master died before he could complete her training when we first meet her would that redeem what we watched?

I think it's too late for that, as we've already formed our opinion of her and of Kylo based on what we saw in this movie and so it will carry on forward, even with the revealed/retconned justification. They would have really needed to set it up better in this one if they wanted a twist like that, mostly by having relevant people point out that an untrained Force user shouldn't have been able to do things like that, so that we're aware that this is odd without it coming across like she's just that powerful or great.

[Peelee]

Whether or not it is "alive" in a strict sense, its pretty definitely described, in its establishing scene, as being able to direct people's actions.

You are absolutely correct, it does partially direct people's actions. This is what gives Jedi their precognition and reaction speed. But it's also demonstrated to be pretty limited; for instance, nearly all of the Jedi were wiped out in the purge, despite having precognition and well-trained battle skills. There absolutely are limits that are shown to the audience.

I'm more inclined to blame Abram's Mystery Box!

I suspect Rey was left in the care of someone other than Unkar Platt and that someone trained Rey but lacking a light sabre merely focused more on melee and unarmed combat for that side of her training.

So Kylo was merely caught unawares since he had no reason to suspect Rey had any training but that would have explained her skill in that area something that brings her comment about Luke Skywalker being a myth into something more relevant if she heard about him from her tutor?

However they didn't explain themselves and maybe we learn whoever brought Rey to Jakku had good reason to do so given Snoke shows an unhealthy interest in her!

So assuming she actually was a Padawan whose master died before he could complete her training when we first meet her would that redeem what we watched?

If she was taught in the Force previously, that would go a long way to explain how she was able to manifest and precisely control Force powers. But she also shows incredulity at the Jedi being real earlier on, doesn't she?

In any event, it could have been done better, but I absolutely think it's salvageable. And a large part of it I blame on Abrams and his obsession with the Mystery Box.

[Psyren]

Bolded, because apparently you aren't even reading what I'm writing.

I did read your opinion and dismissed it. So I guess we're at an impasse, yet again.

[citation needed]

Do I really have to dig up every quote where someone mentions "the will of the Force" or similar?

It's true that it hasn't been proven, but until you can disprove it, it remains a possibility. Whether you want it to be one or not.