New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!

[Mordar]

It's also worth noting that my main objection is to the Force grab. The fight, as you point out, is against a grievously injured person. The bowcaster is shown as incredibly powerful, even through multiple people in the air off a single bolt. That's fine. Same for the Force Persuade (though that one is still much shakier, and I think it's more justification after the fact due to bad writing, but I'll still let it fly). But the Force grab comes out of nowhere. And even then, she's fighting against Ben doing it as well. Sure, he's still injured, but his pull should still make it more difficult. The Lion chasing the person who discovers they can run is doing it on a hurdles track, to try to fit the analogy.

I think it is very interesting that I feel exactly the same way...backwards. I guess I could be on board with the idea that Force Persuade is like a bonus to a diplomacy/charm/con skill, but that particular instance it had to be good enough to do something that will, in all likelihood, end with the Daniel Craig trooper executed. That's beyond the realm of gentle pushes and more of convincing someone to do something just short of suicide.

I think the Force Pull, on the other hand, was much easier. It was greatly *assisted* by Kylo Ren, not opposed. Heck, Ren did all the hard work of getting it moving in the right direction...Rey just had to deflect it a tiny bit so it scooted just wide of Kylo Ren and over to her. The three (lightsaber, Kylo Ren and Rey) were close to in a line, from my perspective. Its like with a thrown football*...someone can easily deflect it so it goes slightly off target with much less effort (and skill) than it takes to throw it the 30 yards in the first place. So between the moment of extreme need and the as-yet-undetermined-but-strong bond between that particular saber and Rey I think not only is the Force Pull forgivable, it is cinematic and appropriate.

But clearly, YMMV.

- M

* - Yes, American football, silly people

[Peelee]

I think she's hotheaded and jumps to conclusions, not that she's trusting and naive.



If I tell you your argument is one an idiot or troll would make, that would be an attack on you. "Fanboy wankism" is just as passive-aggressive, and you keep doubling down.

I think it is very interesting that I feel exactly the same way...backwards. I guess I could be on board with the idea that Force Persuade is like a bonus to a diplomacy/charm/con skill, but that particular instance it had to be good enough to do something that will, in all likelihood, end with the Daniel Craig trooper executed. That's beyond the realm of gentle pushes and more of convincing someone to do something just short of suicide.

I think the Force Pull, on the other hand, was much easier. It was greatly *assisted* by Kylo Ren, not opposed. Heck, Ren did all the hard work of getting it moving in the right direction...Rey just had to deflect it a tiny bit so it scooted just wide of Kylo Ren and over to her. The three (lightsaber, Kylo Ren and Rey) were close to in a line, from my perspective. Its like with a thrown football*...someone can easily deflect it so it goes slightly off target with much less effort (and skill) than it takes to throw it the 30 yards in the first place. So between the moment of extreme need and the as-yet-undetermined-but-strong bond between that particular saber and Rey I think not only is the Force Pull forgivable, it is cinematic and appropriate.

But clearly, YMMV.

- M

* - Yes, American football, silly people

Oh, that reminds me. What the hell is up with the saber bond? It's like Abrams decided that the lightsaber was like The One
Ring, and speaks to people and calls to people. I hated that when I first saw it.

[Olinser]

Oh, that reminds me. What the hell is up with the saber bond? It's like Abrams decided that the lightsaber was like The One
Ring, and speaks to people and calls to people. I hated that when I first saw it.

Member berries.

MEMBER LUKE'S LIGHTSABER!?!?!?!?!?

(You know, the one that went off the railing in Cloud City along with his SEVERED HAND?)

[Legato Endless]

I don't think it was only a reference to the OT. I think JJ decided that psychometry was part of Star Wars. Which...is certainly a divergence from what I'm aware of at least in canon. I can buy a Jedi reading an object's history, like a ranger reading a trail marks, because the Force binds the universe together, but the object actually talking to the person? Calling out of it's own accord? That's bizarre to me in the ethos of Star Wars.

Honestly during the pull contest, it almost looks more to me like the Saber decides who's going to get it. Is that silly? Absolutely. Does it look like something JJ would do as a resolution to the earlier set up? Frankly, it kind of does.

I'll concede that I'm wrong then. I'm sorry.

Thank you.

[Peelee]

Member berries.

MEMBER LUKE'S LIGHTSABER!?!?!?!?!?

(You know, the one that went off the railing in Cloud City along with his SEVERED HAND?)

I don't think it was only a reference to the OT. I think JJ decided that psychometry was part of Star Wars. Which...is certainly a divergence from what I'm aware of at least in canon. I can buy a Jedi reading an object's history, like a ranger reading a trail marks, because the Force binds the universe together, but the object actually talking to the person? Calling out of it's own accord? That's bizarre to me in the ethos of Star Wars.

Honestly during the pull contest, it almost looks more to me like the Saber decides who's going to get it. Is that silly? Absolutely. Does it look like something JJ would do as a resolution to the earlier set up? Frankly, it kind of does.



Thank you.

Exactly. Anakin's lightsaber is reacting more strongly to Rey than it did the Anakin's son, which seems more than a little silly. Especially when it's the only object to do anything like that in old or new canon. The resortution to earlier build up actually makes me dislike the saber Force grabbing a lot less. While hating the One Ring saber concept just that much more, of course.

Also, I try to not be an intransigent ass. If I'm in the wrong, I'd like to believe I'll always own up to it and apologize. And I know I'll be in the wrong sometimes. So also, thank you to those who call me on it.

[Keltest]

Honestly, I thought the vision thing was less the Lightsaber and more Rey. The Force is going "oooh, Destiny!" around her, whether she likes it or not.

[Cikomyr]

I know you guys seem to hate/diss the whole "saber chosing Ray" or "saber talking to Ray" but..

Kyber Crystals developping some Force affinity with individuals is actually part of the canon, no?

[Olinser]

I know you guys seem to hate/diss the whole "saber chosing Ray" or "saber talking to Ray" but..

Kyber Crystals developping some Force affinity with individuals is actually part of the canon, no?

Given that the saber 'talked' to her literally before the first time she touched it, you're trying to claim that it developed an affinity to her literally before she knew it existed?

[Peelee]

Honestly, I thought the vision thing was less the Lightsaber and more Rey. The Force is going "oooh, Destiny!" around her, whether she likes it or not.

Jolee Bindo said everything about destiny perfectly. #gethimbackincanon

I know you guys seem to hate/diss the whole "saber chosing Ray" or "saber talking to Ray" but..

Kyber Crystals developping some Force affinity with individuals is actually part of the canon, no?

Jedi younglings traveled to the ice caves to harvest their own crystals, which they then used to build their lightsabers. The Force guided their selection, finding a crystal that matched them as Jedi. To those not meant to receive it, the crystal was cold to the touch, however those the crystal chose would hear its "music" and "harmony," becoming attracted to it.[6]

If anything, the crystal would respond to Anakin, not Rey. Also, I would be loathe to describe what Rey experienced when she touched the saber as "harmony."

[Scowling Dragon]

Alright, Il be positive.
What could possibly be unexpected, new, good and well implemented that would set itself up for a better movie after this (Also make sense and not be retconny)?

Anybody got any ideas?

[Olinser]

Alright, Il be positive.
What could possibly be unexpected, new, good and well implemented that would set itself up for a better movie after this (Also make sense and not be retconny)?

Anybody got any ideas?

They could take that ridiculous space chipmunk from the trailer and feed it to a Rathtar in its first scene to prevent it from becoming another Jar Jar.

[Lethologica]

I suppose that's positive compared to your baseline, but setting a difficult and involved creative challenge on numerous subjective terms dictated by an overtly uncharitable party is a setup for failure.

[The Glyphstone]

It looks more like a brightly colored penguin to me. But it's still dumb looking.


Seriously, though - if they have the guts to have Rey and Kylo both abandon their respective teachers/paths and try and forge something else together, that would be a genuinely interesting story. The trailer makes it obvious that Kylo still sucks at being evil, and we know from TFA that Rey taps into Dark power far too easily. I suspect the team-up hints are a deliberate splice and it won't turn out that way, but it would be cool and fitting for the title - the Last Jedi (and the Last Sith, likely) see their lineages end because their intended apprentices just reject the whole paradigm.

[Scowling Dragon]

I suppose that's positive compared to your baseline, but setting a difficult and involved creative challenge on numerous subjective terms dictated by an overtly uncharitable party is a setup for failure.

That's my DEFAULT. Why is
"Make Sense please"
"Maybe make this continuation of a story have something new and worthwhile"
"Please make sense in continuity"
"Have proper pacing and structure"
Too friggin MUCH.
Having a GOOD movie is too much of an expectation? Do I just clap my hands like a seal?



What disapointed me MOST about Episode 7 was that as a foundation it was AWFUL. Like fundementally atrocious. Unless you just want to see SWE4 nearly scene for scene over and over and over and I guess thats all that people want.

So being constructive, I ask how it could you know, do something new. I heard make ray evil be something. That still falls under "weird pacing". Like shes all smiles and goodness movie 1, and then five minutes later falls to the dark side?
I doubt it will happen. Also same deal with Kylo Ren but in reverse.

[Peelee]

The trailer makes it obvious that Kylo still sucks at being evil

I don't think that he is supposed to be Evil so much as he is supposed to worship Anakin. And that does come across well in the trailer. For instance, in his starfighter, Ben tries spinning. That's a good trick.

[Psyren]

I'll concede that I'm wrong then. I'm sorry.

Apology accepted.

That duel is pretty interesting, character-wise. Kylo is injured. Kylo is also not trying to kill Rey (he's trying to get her to join him). Even still he is controlling every aspect of the fight. He has her and keeps her right where he wants her, from the moment she turns on the lightsaber. Until he tries to talk to her. He reminds her of the force, she centers herself and surges. Not even well, Kylo is thrown off balance by her act of calming herself. From that point on, Rey wins, but she's not in control of the fight; she's just going all out, and Kylo is stumbling overhimself because he played a mind-game and lost. I would say (and just having watched it a couple times last week) she didn't defeat him as much as surprised him, until the Canyon of Convenience opened up, giving Kylo a reprieve.

To fanwank a bit, it's also possible that during the mindmeld/torture scene, she didn't figure out how to get in his head, more just turn his own power against him (I seem to recall someone official confirming her channelling dark side in that scene). If that's the case, she doesn't have to force pull the lightsaber, just hijack HIS force pull. But there's nothing in the film that really supports or disproves that, just an idea I thought was sort of neat.

Where they really dropped the ball I think was in part the limitations of the medium. She mind tricks the trooper. But not on her first shot. Her first attempt, she fails and he comes to tighten the restraints. Once again, centering herself, and gets it on the second shot. If they really wanted to show her force powers, being untrained but a little lucky, they'd have her fail one or two more times. But then everyone would accuse them of padding out the film, and they'd be right. Her first blaster shot misses. She flies the Falcon...but not before driving it through half the salvage encampment trying to get it off the ground. A few more failures and the things she has reason to be good at (knowing the inside of a wrecked Star Destroyer better than your average TIE jockey, knowing about the specific devices that were hampering the Falcon, climbing very well) would have made a little more sense, but I can see them being afraid to drag scenes out too long.

Anyway, I liked it. I'm probably going to like the next one, and I am excited!

Agreed on all counts (except the hijack thing.) If a modicum suspension of disbelief is the price to pay for good pacing, I'm all for it.

[Cikomyr]

Given that the saber 'talked' to her literally before the first time she touched it, you're trying to claim that it developed an affinity to her literally before she knew it existed?

I think that if its the Crystal doing the stuff, then the Crystal's affinity to Anakin+Luke found something in Rey that allowed her to hear what it had to say.

Kyber Crystals are literally your go-to answers regarding anything acting mystical with Lightsabers.

[Reddish Mage]

The trailer makes it obvious that Kylo still sucks at being evil, and we know from TFA that Rey taps into Dark power far too easily. I suspect the team-up hints are a deliberate splice and it won't turn out that way, but it would be cool and fitting for the title - the Last Jedi (and the Last Sith, likely) see their lineages end because their intended apprentices just reject the whole paradigm.

The team-up idea sounds like a wild fan theory. Also, its not the apprentices that have rejected the old paradigm.

Luke, himself, doesn't sound like an orthodox Jedi from the trailer. Snoke also isn't exactly classic Sith. Kylo Ren is the "leader of the knights of Ren" (suggesting there are other dark force-using Rens!), so the Rule of 2 is violated at least.

Rey may well go grey. If Luke isn't going to train her as a Jedi, then by default that's what she is.

Kylo is in a different place, morally. We've also seen him as a lost soul follower. He seems to think the Dark Side holds some sort of redemption for him. He's already done a lot of horrible things. If he pulls back, it is not clear where he would go from there if not some attempt to redeem himself.

They are certainly at least teasing the idea that these two characters are not clearly settled in their morality. That sort of thing made a great contribution to the story in the old Jedi Knight video games. However, there's a limit to what you can do with that angle. The plot in those games, continued to revolve around stopping (or hijacking) the main antagonist's plans.

Abandoning the war, and the plot, is likely to become more likely to muddy the story than lead to a new, more interesting story.

Agreed on all counts (except the hijack thing.) If a modicum suspension of disbelief is the price to pay for good pacing, I'm all for it.

You right, here, that Rey's abilities could have been explained more logically by just allowing for more run-time a few more failures and hiccups as she got her various abilities to work.

Also, as you and JoshL says, it is worth sacrificing some of those failures for the sake of a smooth running movie.

The real question is though, not what the best way to cut the movie with the plot we got, but what sort of plot we should have got. Should Rey have been created with all this potential in the first place and then put in a position where learning how to do things quick was essential to the plot?

I think that's an open question.

I think that if its the Crystal doing the stuff, then the Crystal's affinity to Anakin+Luke found something in Rey that allowed her to hear what it had to say.

Kyber Crystals are literally your go-to answers regarding anything acting mystical with Lightsabers.

I think the whole purpose of getting rid of midichlorians is that the Force isn't SUPPOSED to be explained mechanically.

Its not important whether the Force magic is in the lightsaber, or the kyber crystal, or Rey herself. What matters is that THE FORCE, had somehow reached out to Rey through the lightsaber at that point. What matters is that it suggests Rey has some sort of family-affinity to Luke, or force-affinity with the lightsaber.

The Force connects everything in the universe, and works in mysterious ways to grant knowledge and purpose to its wielders. To start getting into the pseudoscience of it misses the point. Don't let kyber crystals be midichlorians.

[Psyren]

For me at least, they provided the right conditions for me to suspend my disbelief at her abilities (like learning compulsion on the fly.)

I can see and acknowledge that, for others, that is not the case.

For those people, if that is truly a deal-breaker as far as her character or even the new franchise as a whole, all I can say is that I'm sorry, but that I myself enjoyed it and will continue to enjoy it.

[Cikomyr]

I think the whole purpose of getting rid of midichlorians is that the Force isn't SUPPOSED to be explained mechanically.

Its not important whether the Force magic is in the lightsaber, or the kyber crystal, or Rey herself. What matters is that THE FORCE, had somehow reached out to Rey through the lightsaber at that point. What matters is that it suggests Rey has some sort of family-affinity to Luke, or force-affinity with the lightsaber.

The Force connects everything in the universe, and works in mysterious ways to grant knowledge and purpose to its wielders. To start getting into the pseudoscience of it misses the point. Don't let kyber crystals be midichlorians.

I am sorry, but how does "magic crystal" is explaining the world mechanically?!

[Mordar]

Alright, Il be positive.
What could possibly be unexpected, new, good and well implemented that would set itself up for a better movie after this (Also make sense and not be retconny)?

Anybody got any ideas?

I guess what I'm most hopeful for is that there has been a universal mindwipe. Some sort of "forgetting" (not sure where I am remembering this from, which is funny to me) that effectively removes someone from the memories of everyone else. I know it has been used in fiction before...who can tell me where? And no, I don't mean like Derry/It forgetting.

Anyway, basically restoring some elements of the old canon...namely that Han and Leia had twins, one went dark and the other didn't. Rey is the other child...daughter of Leia, granddaughter of Anakin. She was secreted on Jakku and kept safe by literally everyone who knew her forgetting about her existence. It also blotted her memories (and replaced them with modifications) so she doesn't remember that she did, indeed, receive basic Force instruction. But then steps were taken to prevent Rey's presence at the Jedi Temple during the destruction. But destiny will not be denied, so despite the forgetting and being marooned on a useless backwater planet, destiny comes and finds her.

Though the mechanism will have to be something cool, this does provide several outs and erases some of the biggest concerns/reservations I've had. Aside from the well-detailed Force use issues...I always had a bit of a pause about how quickly and easily Han "adopts" her (remember how rough he was on Luke? Even on Leia? Yet he is much more willing and accepting of Rey. No, not an MS issue...hopefully intentional). Then consider how impacted Rey is when Ren kills Han. She's certainly seen death before, and has huge abandonment experience...so why does the death of this guy she's known like 2 days hit so hard? Again, maybe bad story...but maybe good reason.

And then, for me, the most egregious...and yes, the director said "accident" but he may be fibbing. When the Falcon gets back to the Resistance base after Han's death...Leia walks right past Chewbacca, her dear friend, and goes to Rey...whom she has never met and heard virtually nothing about. That is a complete and utter break in characterization and I would have expected someone to say something so it wouldn't slip by. Next to a death scene, what could be more poignant or powerful than the companions mourning? Since they skip right past Leia and Chewbacca, clearly no one was concerned about it. So we see that Leia and Rey clearly have a connection, and a strong one at that. Again, sure it might be the hamfisted effort of the film to say "See, Rey is the new Leia with more Force!"...but I hope that it is the Forgetting continuing to unravel.

So with that setting the stage, we can have a very interesting sibling rivalry storyline where Rey and Ren vacillate back and forth from light and dark, enemies and (not friends but not enemies), galaxy hope and galaxy bane. The potency of that kind of conflict, stirred by Luke and Snoke could make for some pretty intense scenes and epic clashes. Lots of room for tension, anger, betrayal, reconciliation and high energy conflict between masters and catspaws.

At least, I hope so.

- M

[Scowling Dragon]

For those people, if that is truly a deal-breaker as far as her character or even the new franchise as a whole, all I can say is that I'm sorry, but that I myself enjoyed it and will continue to enjoy it.

There whats wrong with that? Continue to enjoy stuff even if others don't. No problem with that on my end.

But my distast from TFA stems from a nearly molecular level with nearly every choice being one I dislike (Pretty much the whole film sans the first 15 minutes but those could still be better).

the director said "accident" but he may be fibbing.

Mordar....Im so sorry

Man who did they hire to film this? These open ended questions meant to tease but without any actual substance behind them?
The guy who directed Lost or something?

[Mordar]

Mordar....Im so sorry

Man who did they hire to film this? These open ended questions meant to tease but without any actual substance behind them?
The guy who directed Lost or something?

Yeah, these sorts of stories always work best just winging it from session to session, snapping stuff off the cuff. And given the smash success of Looper and the universal acknowledgement of how it was both groundbreaking *and* an example of epic storytelling...could we be in better hands?

Yeah, the lineage of the protagonist in a random one-off film/novel could easily be reduced to only "interesting" and not "impactful"...but in a cross-generational (focus on that generational thing) epic, he's clearly right that parentage is just a tease of a question without any substance. Thank goodness there's an auteur on hand to lead the way.

- M

[Scowling Dragon]

Yeah, these sorts of stories always work best just winging it from session to session, snapping stuff off the cuff. And given the smash success of Looper and the universal acknowledgement of how it was both groundbreaking *and* an example of epic storytelling...could we be in better hands?

Yeah, the lineage of the protagonist in a random one-off film/novel could easily be reduced to only "interesting" and not "impactful"...but in a cross-generational (focus on that generational thing) epic, he's clearly right that parentage is just a tease of a question without any substance. Thank goodness there's an auteur on hand to lead the way.

- M

Actually hes also passing the buck.

Also wait Looper was groundbreaking and Epic? It was a fun romp, but its literally handwaved its own logic away to focus on just whatever is in fron't of you.

And thats LITERALLY the opposite of what Star Wars was about.

[Lethologica]

That's my DEFAULT. Why is
"Make Sense please"
"Maybe make this continuation of a story have something new and worthwhile"
"Please make sense in continuity"
"Have proper pacing and structure"
Too friggin MUCH.
Having a GOOD movie is too much of an expectation? Do I just clap my hands like a seal?

Expecting a good movie is reasonable. Expecting us to come up with a movie concept you will accept as good is...well, let me put it this way: I believe you're being positive and constructive just as much as I believe RLM was being positive and constructive in that video.

[Mordar]

Actually hes also passing the buck.

Also wait Looper was groundbreaking and Epic? It was a fun romp, but its literally handwaved its own logic away to focus on just whatever is in fron't of you.

And thats LITERALLY the opposite of what Star Wars was about.

Those are all what I meant. Totes sarcasm. Just absent the blue text.

- M

[Psyren]

There whats wrong with that? Continue to enjoy stuff even if others don't. No problem with that on my end.

Indeed I do. And I also expressed amusement at the level of vitriol being directed at Rey in particular; nothing wrong with that either.

[Tyndmyr]

This post finally clears up my thoughts about TFA. The design of the movie makes a lot of sense when looked at from the lens of kick-starting a failing franchise.

- They need the Empire back, so the First Order just randomly exists.

- They need to be scarier than the Empire was, so they blow up multiple planets instead of just one.

- They need a Death Star, but they've done that twice already. So, Super Death Star!

- They need to have all the existing Force powers in play before introducing new ones, hence Rey's accelerated learning of them.

- They need a lightsaber battle with no Jedi or Sith around - hence Finn and Rey suddenly being proficient enough to fight Ren, and him needing to be wounded to allow that fight to happen.

- They need Han Solo back for the trailers, so they twist Harrison Ford's arm to get him to show up for it and then kill him off at Ford's request.

------

The movie makes a lot more sense to me now. What they want is cool new Jedi stuff, a power level higher than Vader vs Luke (or Palpatine vs. Yoda). Except 3 of those characters are dead, and Mark Hamill is too old to play the lead. So, rush Rey through all the basics and get her to a position to be the action heroine they want. The rest of the ANH copying is basically filler for getting all the characters where they want them to be for the next two movies.

The result is...inelegant. However, it was still a lot of fun, and vastly superior to the prequels. I can forgive them for that.

It does raise the stakes on Last Jedi. With the success of both TFA and Rogue One, they now have no excuse for simply sticking to paint-by-numbers copying of the original trilogy. The setup is done - now I want to see some actual storytelling.

Indeed. I don't think they intended to make a Mary Sue...all of this is just a side effect of trying to raise the stakes, which is more than a little awkward considering the timeframe, actors ages, and prequel stuff.

They maybe could have done it better, sure. The movie was enjoyable despite being very close to ANH, though. The strongest element was making the opposition's "copy of Darth Vader" be an intentional part of his character design, I think. It ultimately made him a great deal more complex/interesting as a character than if they'd just copied Vader and not explained it. That's probably an example of it being done right, where the First Order was pretty much done wrong.

. Once again, centering herself, and gets it on the second shot. If they really wanted to show her force powers, being untrained but a little lucky, they'd have her fail one or two more times. But then everyone would accuse them of padding out the film, and they'd be right. Her first blaster shot misses. She flies the Falcon...but not before driving it through half the salvage encampment trying to get it off the ground. A few more failures and the things she has reason to be good at (knowing the inside of a wrecked Star Destroyer better than your average TIE jockey, knowing about the specific devices that were hampering the Falcon, climbing very well) would have made a little more sense, but I can see them being afraid to drag scenes out too long.

I think it's more about it all being in one scene. Making the scenes quite long for no other reason would be tiresome, I agree. If someone tries to fly, fails, end of scene, consequences happen, and then, at the end of the film, they manage to struggle to do so, we demonstrate growth pretty straightforwardly. Someone squinting and trying again two seconds later sort of lacks that weight. This isn't in any way particular to this film...plenty of old 80s movies demonstrate exactly this. The thing is, in western cinema, growth exists as a result of the protagonist learning and changing. Consider...basically every marvel team-up movie. They demonstrate problems working as a team, and by the end, have grown to overcome this...but not before it caused a crapton of problems for them first. They have to realize that they need to change, and then work to do so for the growth to feel earned.

Just repeating the action provides none of this.

[Peelee]

Indeed I do. And I also expressed amusement at the level of vitriol being directed at Rey in particular; nothing wrong with that either.

Speaking strictly for myself, I direct my vitriol at the writers.

[Cikomyr]

How close to Yoda's facies is Snoke?

I was musing the possibility that Snoke may be of the same specie? :-P