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2017-10-14, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
To be frank, both of our opinions are irrelevant. That's mathematical fact.
That's what we've been doing:
Canon.
Canon.
Canon.
Canon.
Canon.
We've been citing canon all throughout the thread.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-10-14, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-10-14, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
Please quote literally any time that I complained about any of these things without following it up with some form of "but I accept that it was at least marginally foreshadowed and didn't come out of nowhere." My constant complaint throughout the thread has been about how she uses telekinesis without any training, any practice, any knowledge that it's something she might be able to do, etc. I've not said a damn thing about her piloting. I've not said a damn thing about her duelling with Ben. I've barely mentioned her Mind Trick, while openly admitting that it did have some reasoning in the film. If you're going to call me out, then at least have the common courtesy to contest points I'm actually arguing. If you can't do that, then stop trying to call me out on things that don't have a goddamn thing to do with me.
OK, I'm unsure if you really know what irony is, but I am sure don't know what "explaining how that is ironic" is. In order for that to be ironic, I would have had to complained about something just to complain about it. If you're trying to demonstrate that it was ironic, then you want to quote or paraphrase what I said that was a complaint just to complain. Hope that helps!Last edited by Peelee; 2017-10-14 at 02:23 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2017-10-14, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-10-14, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
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2017-10-14, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
Oh, I get you now. I flat out didn't understand what you guys were trying to say, and thought you were referring to something I'd said earlier. My bad.
So, now that I understand what you're saying, it's still patently ridiculous, because the "complaint" that i was replying to was, "your opinions are in the minority." That has absolutely zero relevance on anything whatsoever at best, and is gatekeeping at worst. It's looking for something to gripe about. It's literally saying, "well, i don't care what you say, there aren't enough of you saying it so I can dismiss it out of hand without considering its merits." So no, I absolutely stand by what I said.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2017-10-14, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
Tell me again why you telling that we are only looking for things to criticize while people deconstruct all the reasons you criticize Episode VII isnt ironic.
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2017-10-14, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
Myself, I think the irony is that y'all accuse Peelee of looking for things to complain about in the movie while looking for things to complain about in Peelee's complaints. And that's terrible (TM).
Or maybe this is just a circlejerk of looking for ways to delegitimize disagreement. /shrug
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2017-10-14, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-10-14, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
So, getting back to the discussion about TFA in preparation for TLJ:
I think it would be extremely interesting to focus more on Kylo and this struggle. The trailer seems to imply the movie will do exactly that, but...it's a trailer, so I'll hold my breath.
Also, having Luke be disillusioned with the Jedi way, coupled with Kylo also questioning the merits of the Dark Side, would make for an interesting set-up for a "Grey" side of the Force. The Jedi have seemingly revolved around the idea that emotions are dangerous, while the Sith appear to use emotions at their most extreme to fuel their power. A more balanced approach that melds the two philosophies together would make for an interesting storyline, in my opinion. Of course, that wouldn't do much to resolve the First Order/New Republic conflict, but I honestly don't care much for that anyway (as written...I mean, Death Star 3.0 was seriously stupid).
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2017-10-14, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
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2017-10-14, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
Honestly, not particularly eager to focus on Kylo Ren. He was decidedly not impressive in TFA. He came off as a moody teen more than an actual villain (the Emo Kylo Ren twitter account didn't emerge for no reason) and also a rehash of a particularly unearned EU plotline - Han and Leia's son turned to the dark side? Whatever will they think of next. If anything, with Kylo likely the other prodigy Luke mentions, it seems that TLJ is doubling-down of Kylo-as-Jacen, which is frankly pathetic. You had that over a decade's worth of evidence to not use Troy Denning developed plotlines in Star Wars Disney. How could you possibly screw that up?
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2017-10-14, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
I didn't have much a problem with Kylo Ren's "emo-ness." I thought the whole point of it was to emphasize just how fueled by emotions the Dark Side truly is, and the fact that he's "emo" was to highlight how he is still very much in the early stages of his training. I would expect him to have greater control over his emotions in TLJ...or at least I hope he does.
As an aside: I'm literally about to watch the first episode if the Clone Wars animated series. Is the series good (read: should I invest in watching all 6 seasons)? Also, is it still considered canon?
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2017-10-14, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2017-10-14, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
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- Twin Cities, Minnesota
Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
The CGI series is very solid and probably worth your time. The first season is the roughest but quality generally upticks from there.
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2017-10-14, 09:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
Parts of it are good. There's a lot of episode-to-episode and arc-to-arc variation. Opinions: Ahsoka starts out frustrating but gets better; Anakin is less terrible than in the prequels but still frustrating and episodes that have little to none of the chosen one are generally superior and this is also true of Padme; Jar-Jar is still horrible but he's only in a few episodes; Asajj Ventress is a scene, episode, and series stealing whirlwind but doesn't get enough time (and her arc had to be concluded in other material because those episodes didn't get made); Grievous remains a lousy villain and Dooku isn't much better, but the series creates a number of serviceable antagonists such as Cad Bane. The clones themselves, when they get the spotlight, are really quite good.
And the series is still canon, and as such is actually the source of a lot of Legends EU material being carried forward into the new canon like the Witches of Dathomir or Zygerrians.
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2017-10-14, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
See what I mean?
The problem is that "Jedi" (and "Sith" for that matter) are just too marketable. They'll never be abolished. So the Gray will need to have flaws of its own to justify the other two (or at least the Jedi) continuing to exist. Though I guess that's not a bad thing to have a third option.
Another reason to play up the Gray's flaws - it'd be kind of tone-deaf for them to establish a compromise position between the freedom fighters and the Nazi analogues.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-10-14, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
It's the CGI animated series that's up on Netflix right now. Is there really a show called "Clone Wars" that is separate from "The Clone Wars?" That seems...unnecessarily confusing.
EDIT: The first episode was really good! Yoda is a badass, obviously, but as someone mentioned above I was also pleasantly surprised by the depth the clones had even with their little screen time.Last edited by The Aboleth; 2017-10-14 at 09:32 PM.
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2017-10-14, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-10-14, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
The problem with emo-Ren is that he's the main villain in TFA. Being young, inexperienced, and not emotionally in control is simply not scary. Also, you say that Ren is showing the emotional drive of the Dark Side, however, the dark-force users of prior trilogies tended to be cool, controlled, and let their emotions out infrequently and to specific, often deadly, effect.
Ren is struggling with his emotions, and his fits of rage are more like a hissy fit than the controlled fits of murder and torture Darth Vader did. Also, for all his emotion, Ren still doesn't seem to be fully committed to the dark side the way Vader was. these things don't make him a better dark force user, or a better villain.
Vader's rage made him more fearsome, Ren's rage diminishes him.
The reason Kylo isn't going to become a Grey Jedi, the reason there isn't going to be a merging of the philosophies, is precisely because it doesn't jive with the plot.
You can hate the plot-line and talk about your fantasy plot as much as you want, but I don't think you are thinking things through.
The new "Grey Jedi" philosophy, the way you are speaking of, is something that Rey and Kylo would both embrace and take them to a place where neither of them have much interest in the current conflict. We are thus left with...no conflict.
While "Grey Jedi" might be a spiritually or philosophically interesting concept, it doesn't make a lot of sense to introduce it into the narrative the way you are talking about it.
In truth, various "grey" ideas have been featured prominently in the Star Wars EU for decades. Disney seems to be playing with it A LOT in their reboots. However, they aren't going to create a grey faction out of members of the main cast and then have them oppose the representatives of the other philosophies....partly because its not clear there are anymore orthodox representatives of the Jedi or Sith philosophies in TLJ.
Instead, Disney seems to be toying with the idea that there are other ways to view the force than through the Jedi or Sith lens. Rey in particular is going to receive a vision that, in addition to light and dark there is....balance. However, this doesn't mean that Rey is going to take the knowledge and start a separate faction. Its not clear why either the Resistance, or Luke, is going to oppose Rey (Luke may even be the one teaching her).
Kylo, on the other hand, seems to be struggling to obtain clarity by seeking to remove everything weak and human about himself by murder. Although I'm not clear what they intend to do to Kylo, the prospect of Kylo finding balance, specifically, runs against everything we know about him.
Kylo joining with Rey and forming a third "Grey Jedi" faction simply has nothing to do with the story being told, nor would it make a better story.Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2017-10-14 at 10:23 PM.
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2017-10-14, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
I think that's kind of the point, though. Ren is powerful, but has not yet mastered the control necessary to be a true Sith Lord. He's struggling with his anger and with "the pull of the Light Side." He's not supposed to be Vader 2.0--not yet, at least.
And I disagree that he's supposed to be the "main villain" of TFA. The First Order is the main villain in the same way that The Empire was in ANH. Ren is a supporting villain--he's formidable and powerful, but he's not THE guy putting things into motion...again, similar to Vader in ANH.
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2017-10-14, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
I agree that Ren's rage diminishes him, but I wouldn't say that makes his character worse or problematic from a storytelling perspective. Zuko had the same issue with anger and was about as much of a main villain as Ren in the initial stages of ATLA. The conflict between what Ren is and what Ren wants to be is interesting and comes across viscerally.
I do feel like something's missing from Ren's portrayal. I'm still not sure what it is. But I don't think this is it.
I see that you're more interested in racing to the bottom than turning on your sarcasm detector. Have fun arguing with yourself about which discussion is DA WORST discussion, if you consider that fun. Or about whose slightly-hypocritical attacks constitute the biggest irony. Or who has to look for things instead of just seeing them. Or whatever. I'm off to talk about Star Wars.
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2017-10-14, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
So, I've got a lot of problems with what you've said, but really it boils down to the part I bolded.
I have thought things through, thank you very much. I enjoy Star Wars greatly and have an appreciation for the tales the movies tell, and just because an idea that I think might be interesting doesn't jive with what you like doesn't mean it is inherently terrible or flawed.
I'm not saying the "Grey Jedi" thing is certain to happen--just that if it did, I think it would be interesting to see where it went. How to view the Force, and what "side" of it one should take, is a fundamental part of the universe. Why WOULDN'T there be conflict around an idea of two main characters saying "Screw that, let's not take sides at all and explore a new way to utilize the Force?" I think there's plenty of room for conflict there, not just concerning Jedi vs Sith but also how it could affect the First Order vs New Republic war.
If you don't like that idea or think it's interesting, fine. But don't insinuate I'm not "thinking it through" or assume that it doesn't fit with the story. We don't even know what the story of TLJ is yet.Last edited by The Aboleth; 2017-10-14 at 10:50 PM.
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2017-10-14, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
Although I don't mean to offend, my point is you don't have a story idea. Its not that you don't love Star Wars or don't think deeply about Jedi Philosophy. I think you don't have a story idea and what you replied to me above proves that.
You are saying there are a ton of story ideas around your Kylo/Rey as Grey Jedi pair, however, you haven't suggested any such ideas on your own. Instead, you suggest your concept, which is more of a philosophic concept than anything, and suggest exploring that, rather than a plot line.
You admitted in the earlier post I reacted to that you didn't know how your idea impacted the storyline but you weren't hot on the entire plot-line from TFA.
The sort of story ideas you could come up, on the premise of having two members, already embedded in their respective positions, saying "screw this" and going off on their own, are not likely to be very good story ideas. It is more likely that any story on this premise is going to transparently and heavy-handedly shift away from the plotline to something completely different.Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2017-10-14 at 11:08 PM.
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2017-10-14, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
All of what you say about Ren's character instantly makes him a thousand times more interesting than Darth Maul ever was. Or Dooku. Or Grievious.
They tried to catch lightning in a bottle a second time and recreate the success of Darth Vader. It did not work. There can be no other Darth Vader, who is not only the best villain in Star Wars, but also ranks as one of the best villain in movie history.
Kylo Ren is the first Star wars villain post-Vader who does not try to recreate the style of Vader; but instead is his own character with his own struggle. Now you may not personally enjoy it, but you cannot say its an objective weakness of the movie.
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2017-10-14, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
You are presuming way too much based on what I said. The two need not "team up" -- they can shun the traditional Dark Side/Light Side teachings independently and still discover a "Grey" path. Even if they DID "team up," that doesn't mean they need to go off on their own and abandon the rest of the story and characters. What if their revelations lead them to a way that would defeat Snoke and bring peace between the First Order and the New Republic--maybe in a way that brings reconciliation and "balance" in a way we haven't seen? It wouldn't happen right away, but it could.
We don't know what the storyline is yet, so saying my ideas can't or won't fit with it is false--unless you've already seen TLJ. We have an IDEA of where it COULD be headed based on TFA, but sequels have definitely gone in wildly different directions or thrown in huge curveball before...Vader being Luke's father, anyone?
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2017-10-14, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
That's very fair (as is an earlier point bout the scene with Han).
I'll freely admit that I was very distracted by the performance the actor was giving and had a hard time whenever he was onscreen without his mask - this is probably because he was subverting my expectations so much I had trouble readjusting when the story switched back to him.
I haven't rewatched it since I saw it in theaters but if I get a chance I'll watch for what you guys have seen and see if I don't have a new appreciation for it.
My greater point had been we can love something which we have gripes with - and even major (very subjective) gripes don't have to make something bad or less fun.
When I first saw the film I had a hard time with the performance of Kylo - but I liked the character concept and ideas. I felt the performance failed in dramatic moments. Others here did not so I'll need to watch again with a more critical eye to see if this was Jared Leto joker moment (a stylistic performance where I couldn't find anything redeeming) or a hearing about Heath Ledger's joker moment (Before seeing it I was primed to dislike it because it just sounded so different form what I knew and expected - once actually giving it a chance I saw its brilliance)
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2017-10-14, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
...You're the one who keeps arguing with me.
See, what I don't understand is why. It's like the Boba Fett thing - their popularity seems driven far more by the character's aesthetics - their outfit and voices in particular - than their actions or motivations. Vader in the OT was practically just a skilled stormtrooper. Leia and even members of the Empire (like Motti) met him with open scorn. Palpatine to me was much more interesting - the way he seemed to feed on making his enemies hate him, and the way he treated lightsabers like toys (well, before the prequels anyway) made him much scarier to me.
I completely agree with you that Ren is more interesting than Dooku and Maul. That's a pretty low bar though - honestly, if it weren't for the expanded material, I'd say he's more interesting than Vader himself too.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-10-15, 12:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
While Kylo Ren is indeed more interesting than a one-note character like Darth Maul, he is also less intimidating. That's his big problem. Kylo Ren comes off as a teenager suffering from emotional issues surrounding his parentage (I'm not sure precisely how old the character is supposed to be) who is trying to live up to a legacy, Vader's, that he clearly doesn't understand. He lacks control, he lacks ideological commitment, and he doesn't seem to have any particular plan. That would all be a very interesting starting point, for a movie about Kylo Ren, but the movie isn't about him. He was only in a relatively small number of scenes in TFA in the first place, he didn't manage to accomplish anything significant in any of them on his own merits and wounded or not he got beat down by Rey. He's just not scary, especially not when he takes his helmet off. Whatever Adam Driver's merits as an actor, his look with long hair is far more Space Surfer Bro than Space Nazi.
This isn't a problem that's unique to Kylo Ren by the way. Domhnall Gleason's General Hux is such a pale imitation of Peter Cushing's Moff Tarkin he might as well be a muppet, and Supreme Leader Snoke is a CGI creation with no hair and gray skin voiced by Andy Serkis. Every time he spoke in TFA I kept expecting him to say something about 'hobbittss.' Even Starkiller Base - they made it much bigger than the Death Star, but it had none of the menace of the original.
Now, it is admitted hard to top the original, accept no substitute Space Nazis of the Galactic Empire - those largely British actors in the OT put on a master class in menace - but the First Order and it's major characters come off weak compared to the Sith Empire of TOR, a much more convincing knock-off of the Empire, and that's lousy.
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2017-10-15, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!
I agree - TFA suffered from lack of a truly engaging villain. Snoke was about as menacing as a coat-rack, and Kylo's tantrums, while great indicators of his character, didn't exactly make him fearsome or awe-inspiring either. Which, yeah I get it, that was the point, but hopefully TLJ has something a little more substantial in the BBEG slot.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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