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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Here we go again, meaning show business not Flash specifically. To show female empowerment the males have to be incompetent morons. Can't have strong females along side strong males. I don't object to the Women saving the day. That story was well done. I wanted to know what happens next. I object to the utter garbage the Men story we were presented.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Someone from team Arrow, just complained to Flash that HIS base lacks security.
    Someone, from team Arrow, with the bunker that at least four villains and countless friends just walked in to, just complained about the lack of security in this series.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Here we go again, meaning show business not Flash specifically. To show female empowerment the males have to be incompetent morons. Can't have strong females along side strong males. I don't object to the Women saving the day. That story was well done. I wanted to know what happens next. I object to the utter garbage the Men story we were presented.
    Yeah, drunk Barry was...dumb. Ralph is unnecessary, at best, and required too much character-reversal to accommodate him in the story.

    Spoiler: Details from Girls' Night Out
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    My beef was more Iris-centric, and then Cecile related. She does not bring anything to Team Flash in her current role. She isn't a fit, and there's no reason "Flash's Financee' = Leader" other than shoe-horning. Then on top of that, layer the whole issue of her confronting KF and Amunet...Amunet would have been just fine offing them both then and there, but because Iris slipped inside, she doesn't...and even better, KF totally backs down because Iris says so...when she wouldn't for Flash or Vibe?!? Then in order to have her find Amunet later she comes up with the idea to have the satellites scan for metals that would be all over the place and they're able to find the one tiny bucket in the whole metropolitan area? [This I can let slide because the Team does the same thing way too often]. That's something Felicity had to do and, in fact, seems to have already been on the task when Iris came up with it. Then, of course, Iris leads the armed incursion and nearly becomes the "Woman in the Refrigerator" (as she should have) because she has no talent, training or experience in that particular role. Fortunately, Felicity set things up so Cecile can suddenly become capable of reading schematics and remotely operating the big magnet to save the day.


    So in short, we have the two competent female good characters (Felicity and Caitlyn/KF) work mostly within their strengths, facing a female bad character that we're told is hyper-competent but actually is just there to job for the good guys (and has to act in a fashion that seems out of normal for her just so the good girls can win), supported by two other female characters that have been shown to be competent at what they do, but are totally being fish-out-of-watered to make the contrivance work?

    Iris as an investigative journalist is a much greater asset and better use of her character than as the fake-leader/sort of older sister to the team. That position offers both excellent intelligence/resources to team (so we don't have to continue with the idea that everything is satellite trackable, net-hackable or google-able in 15 seconds by Cisco/Felicity or now virtually anyone) and provides some great chances for plot hooks.

    Cecile is an accomplished attorney in the DAs office, offering - again - excellent resources and plot hooks which really is all you'd want for a tertiary character.

    So in short - cramming Iris into a leader role so she'd have something to do, bringing in a Cisco replacement (who, frankly, is better at operational support than Cisco) in Felicity, having Caitlyn/KF continue her wavering and bad decision making, and then "incapacitating" Cecile and all the boys to make Iris look good failed. It didn't improve Iris' position or credibility and it reduced pretty much everyone else's around her (with the exception, maybe, of Felicity and Cecile...they probably held level).

    Now then...is the hardly worrisome tentacle guy a show-only creation? Because...he was pretty lame. Had potential before we realized his power was a 2-foot mini-appendage that might be able to bite.

    I thought Cecile's daughter lived out of town...but the wrap up sure made it sound like she was an employee in town. What did I miss?

    So there's this thing in movies I hate - I call it the Malak Syndrome. Protagonists are saddled with a "comic relief" character that they would never put up with because the writers feel they can inject some comedy into the story. For me, the eponymous character is from Conan the Destroyer. Conan would never put up with Malak any longer than he absolutely had to...he might save him if he though Malak was necessary to achieve his ends, but once the conflict of the moment was compete, it would be separate ways. Instead, we are forced to suffer through him. Similar to the Wayans role in the (horrible) D&D movie and any of a number of other shows. Ralph Dibney is not a good addition to The Flash in such heavy doses. I appreciate them bringing him in, but too much of him quickly becomes annoying, and who wants to watch that much annoying? Team Flash did the good guy thing and saved him...they can do the good guy thing and "help him learn"...but they don't need to include him in the team or in "special moments" at all.

    Ugh.

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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    I can at least appreciate, before the trouble started, that the Women were not having a gab fest giggling and complaining how their respective boyfriends do dumb things.

    Drunk Barry I could accept as the excuse to why the Flash wasn't going to save the day. The men could have been captured for Reasons, and the women had to save them. The men could have gone off to the bachelor party, have a good time off screen, and not be seen for the rest of the episode until the end. It did not have to be what we were given.
    Last edited by Pex; 2017-11-08 at 06:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erit View Post
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    They wanted the "girls night out" episode to show strong women characters.
    Despite their intentions, I couldn't ignore that all of this could have been solved in 10 seconds if almost anyone of the men were there, so it kind of backfired...

    There were two ways around it:
    1) like Mordar wrote, not every character has to be a warrior. Play to the character's strengths and show that the women can overcome obstacles in a different method.
    2) If you lack originality and fight scenes is all you have, there already ARE two women with similar powers both of the Flash and of Cisco. Any one of them could have done a better job with the current "women empowerment" story they tried to tell.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    I am not sure I could have cringed harder when someone on-screen actually said "hashtag feminism".

    Blurf.

    Also, as someone pointed out, Iris asking Caitlin to be her maid of honour really just underlines the degree to which Iris does not exist as a fully-developed character on this show. She has no friends outside of Team Flash, no longtime connections that are independent of her life with Barry. Caitlin is her closest female friend, and as Caitlin very rightly pointed out earlier in the episode, she and Iris are not that close. She's just the only other female lead on the team.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Here we go again, meaning show business not Flash specifically. To show female empowerment the males have to be incompetent morons. Can't have strong females along side strong males. I don't object to the Women saving the day. That story was well done. I wanted to know what happens next. I object to the utter garbage the Men story we were presented.
    Agreed. I would further say "Girls Night Out" is weak because Flash does not seem to know how to do an empowering female storyline and, without much thought, regularly side-line or diminish the women characters to enhance the male ones.

    Caitlin gets powers and is the only one out of the main cast who cannot maintain a handle on them. She goes in and out of being a villainess but even then she's a flunky. Jessie and Gypsy are legitimately powerful women but are neither main cast nor have they had an episode to really shine. Jessie also gets kidnapped.

    None of what happens above is really definitive, I'd say the real exhibit of the shows masculine titled tendencies is Iris. Iris has really been bitchy in lead roles, wrong when she disagrees with the group, and only really shines when she runs support.

    Barry is a particularly strong-willed and "my way or the highway" kind of leader, and everyone tends to fall in line. Iris, on the other hand, tends to be the last holdout and it tends to be because she's proven wrong or even because she isn't thinking straight. Iris is also prime kidnapping bait, does some very stupid and reckless things (everyone does, but Iris generally has to get saved from her stupid stuff immediately) and doesn't get too many moments to shine.

    Iris takes over in season four only to become a humorless taskmaster. Barry takes over once he gets back only to be dragged to couples counseling after Iris legitimately cannot communicate with him. However, that problem just becomes a non-issue over the course of that episode and we get a return to the status quo. Barry is back in charge and Iris is just ok with that.

    Even during the girl's (#feminism) night out the girls take on a villainess, so they technically haven't even shown their power over a man (other than flunkies). The guys have to be rendered stupid that evening, otherwise they would have been called in. The women will presumably go back to their supporting roles following this episode instead of taking away an important lesson like that its ok for them to be powerful and be the ones to take down the villain from time to time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    While I'm not enamored with Plasticman's jerk-like behavior, I'll take it at face value that it's part of his character growth into becoming a superhero. Today's lesson was about learning to care and the importance of saving people over capturing the villain. They're showing him improving, and while I don't expect him to become a saint it's likely his jerk persona will mellow into wisecracks. It's interesting Devoe hasn't talked about him at all. I suspect in some later episode Devoe will tempt him to join Team Evil conveniently when he's upset with Barry. The viewer will be plausibly wondering if he will, but I'm rooting he stays on Team Good Guys.

    His scene with Caitlin was confusing. It appeared right after the show cut for commercial break only it didn't feel like a commercial. It ended as if it was a commercial for a Microsoft laptop, but then later Plasticman makes the balloon animal he didn't want to do referencing the scene. Was it a commercial or actually part of the show?

    Spoiler
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    I have no objection to Plasticman giving the necklace back to the Sioux, but I'm glad we were not preached to of moral equivalence of the villain's supposed righteous cause despite her actions. She murdered. She was never in the right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erit View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    While I'm not enamored with Plasticman's jerk-like behavior, I'll take it at face value that it's part of his character growth into becoming a superhero. Today's lesson was about learning to care and the importance of saving people over capturing the villain. They're showing him improving, and while I don't expect him to become a saint it's likely his jerk persona will mellow into wisecracks. It's interesting Devoe hasn't talked about him at all. I suspect in some later episode Devoe will tempt him to join Team Evil conveniently when he's upset with Barry. The viewer will be plausibly wondering if he will, but I'm rooting he stays on Team Good Guys.

    His scene with Caitlin was confusing. It appeared right after the show cut for commercial break only it didn't feel like a commercial. It ended as if it was a commercial for a Microsoft laptop, but then later Plasticman makes the balloon animal he didn't want to do referencing the scene. Was it a commercial or actually part of the show?

    Spoiler
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    I have no objection to Plasticman giving the necklace back to the Sioux, but I'm glad we were not preached to of moral equivalence of the villain's supposed righteous cause despite her actions. She murdered. She was never in the right.
    Elongated Man. Hate his inclusion. Was this shoehorning him in to take Wally's spot, or was it planned all along? Once again, Barry is holding the idiot ball so someone else can get to "star", and the production continues to struggle with (a) understanding how fast even their Flash really is, or (b) how to limit the impact of that speed.

    Spoiler: First encounter
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    Bison turns to run, leaving the armor menacing the collector. Flash considers for a full second or two, then vibrates into the suit and spend another couple seconds shaking it apart, allowing Bison to escape. This is done just to show the "Rescue over Capture" priority...but is fantastically inefficient. Flash could have done a number of things to resolve both the rescue and the capture, easiest of which was grab the collector, drop him off in the hall out of sight of the armor, and then grab Bison. Even if they wanted to do the cool vibration thing, he still would have had plenty of time to do that and then run off to catch Bison after her 3 second head start...which if she were Usain Bolt would have netted her all of 30 yards of straight-line distance.


    Spoiler: Second encounter
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    Again we are subjected to Flash standing around and posturing instead of simply incapacitating Bison right when he shows up. Even if we needed the posturing moment,
    are we to believe that a animated mass of wax and plastic would have the speed to land even a single touch on Flash, much less rag doll him around? And then, best of all, he looks around and yells to EM to let Bison go and rescue the three people that wandered into the street...when he could have done the task in much less time than it took him to vocalize the need. Do you people not understand super speed? At all?


    Spoiler: Third encounter
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    I guess maybe Bison both animates effigies and gives them incredible speed because we see the TRex clobber Flash while he is paying attention. Sure, that makes it so EM needs to manage the TRex and save the security guard...but that could have been handled by having Bison be/run elsewhere and Flash have to give chase and be out of the room. And then the final layer of stupid here...he stops, chats and postures, then tosses the bowl up in the air so Bison reaches out to catch it...and he clicks on the magic cuffs. Like he couldn't have done all of that without the bowl toss? Ugh. On its own, not a deal at all...but layered on the tops of the last two episodes, too much dumb.


    I really do like a lot of the characters and actors, and I like the show as much from a feeling of "shoulda coulda" as for what it accomplishes. But the inconsistency, and what I view as either ignorant, lazy or just plain poor writing, is really starting to suck the enjoyment right out. The addition of so many ancillary heroes is hurting the show because in order for them to be relevant it takes either smart and informed writing...or what we've been seeing. So we either need to trim the action stars significantly and let support be support...or get smarter writing.

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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    The good:
    Like the episode before "girls night out", the tone is light, the action is focused on a small villain, and the big bad is in the back waiting for the end of the season episode.
    I also like the plastic guy, and both his jokes and personality fit the tone of this show. I mean, the robbery scene in the beginning was a great way to start.

    The bad:
    I understand the police is a joke, but what's the point in hi-tech handcuffs if they can be picked with a simple pin?

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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Quote Originally Posted by random11 View Post
    The good:
    I understand the police is a joke, but what's the point in hi-tech handcuffs if they can be picked with a simple pin?
    Blame Cisco, he's the one who designed them. They repel superpowers but not pins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    I like the Elongated Man, he's a good guy but he's also kind of an *******, those are some of my favourite characters.

    A bit into the greater CW here but it's kind of tragic/ironic/hilarious that both Legends and Flash have girl power episodes airing at the same time as the EP is suspended because of harassment accusations.

    Also, regarding the most recent Legends episode.... did they forget that Sarah is gay? Also that most amazons would sort of have to be (either that or really frustrated). Unless Helen is specifically cursed for men to fight over her and not just being super super hot that's a bit inconsistent no?
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    I like the Elongated Man, he's a good guy but he's also kind of an *******, those are some of my favourite characters.

    A bit into the greater CW here but it's kind of tragic/ironic/hilarious that both Legends and Flash have girl power episodes airing at the same time as the EP is suspended because of harassment accusations.

    Also, regarding the most recent Legends episode.... did they forget that Sarah is gay? Also that most amazons would sort of have to be (either that or really frustrated). Unless Helen is specifically cursed for men to fight over her and not just being super super hot that's a bit inconsistent no?
    I always saw her as Bi but leaning gay personally.

    I love Plastic Man (or elongated).

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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    Also, regarding the most recent Legends episode.... did they forget that Sarah is gay? Also that most amazons would sort of have to be (either that or really frustrated). Unless Helen is specifically cursed for men to fight over her and not just being super super hot that's a bit inconsistent no?
    This is probably more thought than the Legends put into it, but...

    First, Helen is almost certainly under some kind of actual curse, or has actual powers. Otherwise Darkh wouldn't be there insinuating himself into her life, and trying to get the Legends to leave.

    Secondly, Helen's curse seems to affect all of the men around her, even those who are not actually that interested in her. Stein/Jax waded into the fight, which was an abnormal behaviour for him, but he did it to protect Hedy Lamarr and show off for her, instead of for Helen.

    Thirdly, Helen's curse makes people violent and possessive, but explicitly doesn't make the men amorous. The studio executives want her for their movies, but they never put the moves on her - owning her is enough. The other fight that we see happens because someone thinks that Helen was inconvenienced, but not just because she's present. In fact, aside from goggling and posturing and the classic comedy distracted falling over, I don't think anyone actually tries to kiss or embrace Helen, do they?

    Thirdly, Sarah was, as noted, immune, despite being attracted to Helen. Darkh also seemed to be basically immune, although that might have been because he had magic to counteract her curse.

    So my theory is that Helen's curse actually massive ramps up people's testosterone levels, rather than making them lustful. That's why it basically affects men - it is a hormone thing, not a desire thing, which makes them more aggressive and possessive.

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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    I haven't watched the last two episodes so I will try to catch up over turkey weekend....

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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    This is probably more thought than the Legends put into it, but...

    First, Helen is almost certainly under some kind of actual curse, or has actual powers. Otherwise Darkh wouldn't be there insinuating himself into her life, and trying to get the Legends to leave.

    Secondly, Helen's curse seems to affect all of the men around her, even those who are not actually that interested in her. Stein/Jax waded into the fight, which was an abnormal behaviour for him, but he did it to protect Hedy Lamarr and show off for her, instead of for Helen.

    Thirdly, Helen's curse makes people violent and possessive, but explicitly doesn't make the men amorous. The studio executives want her for their movies, but they never put the moves on her - owning her is enough. The other fight that we see happens because someone thinks that Helen was inconvenienced, but not just because she's present. In fact, aside from goggling and posturing and the classic comedy distracted falling over, I don't think anyone actually tries to kiss or embrace Helen, do they?

    Thirdly, Sarah was, as noted, immune, despite being attracted to Helen. Darkh also seemed to be basically immune, although that might have been because he had magic to counteract her curse.

    So my theory is that Helen's curse actually massive ramps up people's testosterone levels, rather than making them lustful. That's why it basically affects men - it is a hormone thing, not a desire thing, which makes them more aggressive and possessive.
    Testosterone levels affect both aggressive and amorous behavior and in both men and women. The chemical explanation does not work.

    I assume, they did not depict men sexually assaulting or behaving in any sort of sexually aggressive manner with Helen because that would not sit well with the audience or whoever does the censoring, and if Helen invited amorous behavior that would not let them do what they wanted to do with her nor would it reflect well on Helen. Instead they kept the men’s reaction to stupid fighting.

    Alternatit would not reflect well on Helen if she invited the behavior, and her moving to Themyscira at the end was a great touch.

    Legends of Tomorrow doesn’t need a female power episode because this show actually has a good balance of male and female characters and plotlines. However, they pulled off this sort of episode with a great deal more panache than Flash did.

    The guys actually were pretty useful, even vital to parts of the plot, despite getting caught up in the fight. They managed to have several meaningful intersecting plotlines at once and it was perfectly natural for the ladies to team up, get Helen, and fight their way out.

    Flash was quite a contrast. The female contingent going after the villainess themselves was very out of character for the group and they seemed very over-the-top in going in themselves against the villainess. To justify it, the men were put out of operation for the entire episode. Flash also gives off a distinct vibe of the whole affair being a one-shot deal. The girls aren’t going to be arming up with hi-tech (Cisco-made) guns and going up against villains anytime soon, just as the men won’t be going to anymore strip clubs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Spoiler: Therefore I am consternated
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    Ok this show's reached maximum corniness saturation crossed with idiot ball. Its painful to watch.

    Its like Barry is trying to beat unlimited intellect with unlimited stupidity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: Therefore I am consternated
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    Ok this show's reached maximum corniness saturation crossed with idiot ball. Its painful to watch.

    Its like Barry is trying to beat unlimited intellect with unlimited stupidity.
    nah he probably put gears to loose and wait for eventual idiotic move fron tinker. just after 3 seasons of big bad trying to goad him to fulfill their plans. This feels like him ready to lounge on chair sipping martini while playing poker council of wells and whistling carmen for good times.
    Spoiler: just for the safeties sake
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    about end of episode he basicly says nope we are not catching the big bad for now. relax and enjoy the day guys we earn it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    nah he probably put gears to loose and wait for eventual idiotic move fron tinker. just after 3 seasons of big bad trying to goad him to fulfill their plans. This feels like him ready to lounge on chair sipping martini while playing poker council of wells and whistling carmen for good times.
    Spoiler: just for the safeties sake
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    about end of episode he basicly says nope we are not catching the big bad for now. relax and enjoy the day guys we earn it.
    Not sure what you mean regarding the putting of the gears, but I suspect you are saying Barry doesn't spend the episode basically slamming his head against the wall.

    Spoiler: Therefore I slam
    Show
    Sure, Barry calms down at the very end, after DeVoe throws him a bone, but not before Barry breaks numerous laws and gets himself suspended (and seriously, breaking into DeVoe's house should get him fired and arrested). Also the rest of Team Flash should have been ready to toss Barry into the pipeline (again) for him to cool down. DeVoe just had to keep sitting pretty and Barry would get himself put in jail.

    This was a play through of the cliche that the hero wins, not by cleverness, superiority or strength, but simply by stay true to his principles. Only Barry throws out all the principles he extolled just a few episodes ago for Dibney, now he's acting like Dibney would as a cop (only less smart). Barry knows or suspects DeVoe is on to him, yet he goes right inside the guys house without even dressing up as the Flash. What is happening is that Barry wins just by being stubborn.

    Your final point drives home quality of these episodes. You expect the Thinker will lose because he'll slip up on his own. Yet he claims that nothing is supposed to beyond his ability to know, and he can even predict how Team Flash will pull resources from other dimensions. If DeVoe loses because of his own screw ups, Barry is just being handed a win instead of deserving one.

    Suddenly I feel that might have happened a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Not sure what you mean regarding the putting of the gears, but I suspect you are saying Barry doesn't spend the episode basically slamming his head against the wall.

    Spoiler: Therefore I slam
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    Sure, Barry calms down at the very end, after DeVoe throws him a bone, but not before Barry breaks numerous laws and gets himself suspended (and seriously, breaking into DeVoe's house should get him fired and arrested). Also the rest of Team Flash should have been ready to toss Barry into the pipeline (again) for him to cool down. DeVoe just had to keep sitting pretty and Barry would get himself put in jail.

    This was a play through of the cliche that the hero wins, not by cleverness, superiority or strength, but simply by stay true to his principles. Only Barry throws out all the principles he extolled just a few episodes ago for Dibney, now he's acting like Dibney would as a cop (only less smart). Barry knows or suspects DeVoe is on to him, yet he goes right inside the guys house without even dressing up as the Flash. What is happening is that Barry wins just by being stubborn.

    Your final point drives home quality of these episodes. You expect the Thinker will lose because he'll slip up on his own. Yet he claims that nothing is supposed to beyond his ability to know, and he can even predict how Team Flash will pull resources from other dimensions. If DeVoe loses because of his own screw ups, Barry is just being handed a win instead of deserving one.

    Suddenly I feel that might have happened a lot.
    I kinda agree with you. as putting gear to release last few episodes barry acts like savitar is going to kill iris again which he cant somehow do nothing to prevent it mode. but the moment deVoe reveals him self to barry. barry pulls 180 and acts like captain cold just pay them a visit for cup of earth 99 tea. It was actually refreshing when barry pulled last 180 because it shows some growth from him. instead of going offence he decides to wait and see the bigger plan first then if needed run back few days and solve the problem.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: Therefore I am consternated
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    Ok this show's reached maximum corniness saturation crossed with idiot ball. Its painful to watch.

    Its like Barry is trying to beat unlimited intellect with unlimited stupidity.
    Assuming you mean what I think you do here (see: photographic evidence)...it is getting very hard to stomach the show's intentional ignorance on the impact of Barry's speed. There is no reason, in universe, for that picture to be able to have been made. His search would have been at super-speed and over in a moment...certainly too quickly for run of the mill cameras to catch it.

    Now, had they made it a special camera and told us that...then we would have the same outcome with BA not looking stupid and the camera's owner looking smart. Instead...idiot ball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    Assuming you mean what I think you do here (see: photographic evidence)...it is getting very hard to stomach the show's intentional ignorance on the impact of Barry's speed. There is no reason, in universe, for that picture to be able to have been made. His search would have been at super-speed and over in a moment...certainly too quickly for run of the mill cameras to catch it.

    Now, had they made it a special camera and told us that...then we would have the same outcome with BA not looking stupid and the camera's owner looking smart. Instead...idiot ball.

    - M
    I’m willing to accept that Barry will go out of superspeed to work on a computer (the computer couldn’t keep up). I don’t even care about the fact that the show is incrediably inconsistent in regards to how Barry’s speed work and why he is often vulnerable to normal speed foes as the plot dictates.

    What I was referring to is Barry’s bullheaded insistence on pursuing DeVoe even as he merely uncovered more and more indications the DeVoes were very boring people and meanwhile Barry crossed over a lot of serious police boundary lines and getting called out for it each and every time. By the time Barry was breaking and entering, I knew what was going to happen.

    All this was to prove DeVoe is basically a very smart villain that was anticipating everything Barry was doing and using his normal home life as cover....by his own logic, Barry should have known he was walking into a trap. Yet he just kept it up even after each engagement resulted in ramped up penalties.

    Barry was even rewarded for it in the end, instead of being kicked off the force, thrown in jail, and ending his engagement. DeVoe instead finally admits to being the supervillain Barry somehow knew he was beyond all logic. Barry is vindicated and Team Flash is now united to take on the new villain, when they were instead seconds away from disintegrating over Barry’s insistent on uselessly pursuing a boring history professor they had no hard evidence indicating anything except his life was exceptionally boring and well-ordered.

    The moral on the story is: if you dig yourself into a hole, just keep digging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    What I was referring to is Barry’s bullheaded insistence on pursuing DeVoe even as he merely uncovered more and more indications the DeVoes were very boring people and meanwhile Barry crossed over a lot of serious police boundary lines and getting called out for it each and every time. By the time Barry was breaking and entering, I knew what was going to happen.

    Barry was even rewarded for it in the end, instead of being kicked off the force, thrown in jail, and ending his engagement. DeVoe instead finally admits to being the supervillain Barry somehow knew he was beyond all logic. Barry is vindicated and Team Flash is now united to take on the new villain, when they were instead seconds away from disintegrating over Barry’s insistent on uselessly pursuing a boring history professor they had no hard evidence indicating anything except his life was exceptionally boring and well-ordered.

    The moral on the story is: if you dig yourself into a hole, just keep digging.
    I think I was willing to forgive more of that - he knew there was a Davoe bad guy, the best available intel (Council of Wells...such as it is) pointed him there, some circumstantial evidence corroborated it...certainly deserved more followup. Now, that followup should have been handled a lot better. So too could have the "apologies" of the team at being wrong...

    But I wonder how much is (again) an effort to show how smart someone is by making everyone around them dumb?

    Much like the "Girls Night Out" episode it seems we have a desire to make someone look competent...but the way they choose to do it is by instead making everyone else stupid.

    Between that and Joe referring to Iris as "Boss Lady" for telling everyone to do what they were already going to do (and them responding), I may have to mentally edit all the episodes.

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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Since Iris mentioned having a baby I wonder how personal they will be about it. If all of Barry's cells have dark matter to fuel his power then all of Barry's cells have dark matter, i.e. his little Barries. Will their child be a metahuman? What happens to Iris while pregnant with a metababy? What happens to Iris when they try yet the little Barries don't reach the goal but otherwise are there? In my superhero viewing experience since forever this was never discussed. I'm actually quite interested in this melodrama if they bother to do it.
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    The sad thing about Barry getting caught during his B&E is that he does't just work for the police, but he's a forensics specialist. No mask, no gloves. He did pretty much nothing to cover his tracks or hide his identity, except use his powers to get in and out and search quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafman View Post
    The sad thing about Barry getting caught during his B&E is that he does't just work for the police, but he's a forensics specialist. No mask, no gloves. He did pretty much nothing to cover his tracks or hide his identity, except use his powers to get in and out and search quickly.
    Yeah, I was yelling at the screen. "You have a mask! USE IT!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    But I wonder how much is (again) an effort to show how smart someone is by making everyone around them dumb?

    Much like the "Girls Night Out" episode it seems we have a desire to make someone look competent...but the way they choose to do it is by instead making everyone else stupid.
    Don't forget DeVoe was also shown as smart because he had specialized knowledge in every single field, from physics to engineering to medicine.

    Speaking of making things look stupid. How did people find the Crisis on Earth-X crossover?

    Spoiler: Cheesy, lazy, and fan-servicey
    Show
    Nazis are a stock villains. Taking on death camps should not be done in five minute increments., also the Arrow-verse impromptu Justice League spends most of their time fighting mooks with a lot of dramatic posing.

    The whole set up premise was that the Nazi-versions attack the Wedding to get to Supergirl....in other words, get Supergirl at the one moment she is surrounding by more supers than she is almost ever been. Also, I expected Supergirl going Supernova to be a bit more...literal and would have destroyed the planet from orbit (or halfway across the solar system). The bit about Supergirl going into orbit to get rid of a bomb has already been done to death in Superman movies. In other words, the whole set up was weak to begin with and its execution was cliche. They even get the main plot over with half an episode left.

    The b-movie plot was combined with a lot of melodrama (the Supergirlification of the Arrow-verse) that all went by really quickly.

    Finally, for the grand finale decide to combine Barry and Iris's wedding with Martin Stein's death and, for a surprise twist at the end, we get....
    Spoiler
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    Oliver/Felicity
    . Too much emotion being packed into one special meant that the impact of any one of these events was cheapened.

    Over all I think this one was B-/C+. Citizen Cold, although his presence or his goals aren't very rational (and why did he leave his love from Earth One to remain on Earth One for a bit at the end) but that one bit of fan-service over a potential smorgage board.

    Speaking of fan-service. I think it was a missed opportunity that everyone basically fought their own dopplegangers instead of giving us some "what-if" match ups.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Don't forget DeVoe was also shown as smart because he had specialized knowledge in every single field, from physics to engineering to medicine.

    Speaking of making things look stupid. How did people find the Crisis on Earth-X crossover?

    Spoiler: Cheesy, lazy, and fan-servicey
    Show
    The bit about Supergirl going into orbit to get rid of a bomb has already been done to death in Superman movies. In other words, the whole set up was weak to begin with and its execution was cliche. They even get the main plot over with half an episode left.
    I think the crossover thing was intended to be referential. There were other Superman movie references as well (Superman 2 I noticed).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Speaking of making things look stupid. How did people find the Crisis on Earth-X crossover?
    I thought it was better than the last crossover, but not a lot better in quality.
    Here are several things I thought about when watching the crossover:

    Spoiler
    Show

    1) So, Arrow is over his "not being a superhero" phase? Because in the beginning of the episode, he was fighting ninjas like nothing happened.
    Did I miss an episode, or was this part written before the stupid drama?

    2) Buildup was okay. Wedding is a good excuse to get all of them together, you don't need a lot of effort to present the villains when you can save time and effort by saying "Nazis", and with the exception of "Arrow" it did flow nicely with the different plots.

    3) Earth X, the version of earth no one talks about because it's too evil.
    Really? I'm not saying it's not a crappy place, but I seem to remember that you established a post-apocalyptic earth with cyborgs that sometimes eat humans.

    4) This was what I was thinking when they reached earth X:
    "Are we going to see blimps? Come on, come on, here they come, camera is going up and... YES, WE HAVE BLIMPS!"
    Seriously, is there any comic or TV show that had an alternate universe with Nazis and DIDN'T use blimps?

    5) Why didn't they use the shock collars, about a minute after they established they worked?

    6) What was the point of bringing them all to earth X just so they can wait for them to wake up and then kill them?
    It wasn't even a public event, they could have just killed them when captured and be done with it.
    Same applies to the people they caged in Star Labs. They only needed Supergirl.

    7) "I don't want to be a superhero, I just want to go back and raise my grandchild.
    Do you know what I also like? Being alive. That's kind of my hobby.
    And it's three more days until I retire, so this will be my last gig"
    Did anyone NOT see this coming?

    8) Speaking of which, why did they have to split Firestorm? (Except to find a contrived way to kill the character)

    9) "We won, you can just go, we'll fight another day"
    ??!??! WTF Barry?!! WTF.

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    Default Re: Flash Season Four

    Over all I liked it but my oh my were those some shockingly incompetent soldiers. The hiring standards of the waffen ss really slipped since the war... also strangely enough the quality of their gear. The "Legends fight army of goons" fights are silly enough on the main show (why does nobody ever shoot at the non-bulletproof people?) but this went above and beyond.

    Oh and I don't think the writing staff knows how cause and effects work but that's the only way you can make alternate dimensions anything more then "this other place we can visit that sort of looks like our world but everything is different". And Hitler lived to be over 100 which means the reich has surprisingly progressive hiring policies since evil Olli is at the most the third fuhrer and is american (not to mention ubergirl who is a literal alien). Of well I don't watch these shows for logic I watch them for the fun superfights and the jokes.

    Spoiler
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    Sad to see Martin go but it was due I'd say... I would have preferred him to get his happy ending but in a sense the last few years of adventure were his happy ending. Finally why would they destroy the evil waverider?
    Couldn't they just upload once of the 2 instances of good gideon they have lying around to it instead? It's not like there were any more bad guys in it.
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