Flash Season Four

[khadgar567]

The no killing thing is so dumb... It makes sense in comics because of the comic code and the need to have reoccurring villains but in anything trying to be even remotely realistic it makes no sense. Every police force and law code I'm familiar with in the world as well as most rules of engagement considers killing to defend your life or the life of others to be a last but acceptable resort, I don't get why being able to stretch changes that. Hell they live in a crime ridden city, I wouldn't be surprised if Joe has put a few people in the ground and he's consistently the moral center of the team, plus their friends the Legends have a body count in the hundreds.

Also I forget, are they still running their little mom-and-pop metahuman gulag? Because that is arguably worse then killing anyway since they have yet to mention attempts to depower their prisoners or anything like that. If the choice is between life without parole in a 20 square foot box and death I know which one I'm picking.

Finally, looks like we found out how they're getting rid of that incarnation of Wells... too bad.

actualy its already found mate. at each seasons and barry utilize the big bads trick to beat them. and wells kinda shot him self in the gut due his curiosity and desire to become smarter. but it also gives us the guinea pig to make sure cisco and kaytlyn to find cure to devoes main condition. thus allows perfect plot hole to find a way to seperate gestalt devoe created to keep him self safe.

[Pex]

Spoiler

Show

I'm clinging to hope Ralph is still alive, his mind trapped while Devoe has his body. It's when Devoe transfers that the person finally dies or Devoe takes the mind with him and they're all together. When Devoe dies the minds are released, but it's only one body so Ralph lives (with or without his power).

[The New Bruceski]

Also I forget, are they still running their little mom-and-pop metahuman gulag?

Not as of a few minutes ago. Didn't you see all the bodies around DeVoe?

[BWR]

well i see it way back i the middle of season. but it makes must save the bus metas and return them to their own bodies becomes the final goal of season.

I'm pretty sure those bodies are dead, so the only way to do this is clone new ones or time travel. This being Barry, I think we know which he will choose. I really do hope they will stay dead, though. I liked Ralph but easy fixes to death ruin things if you try to make the deaths meaningful.

[khadgar567]

I'm pretty sure those bodies are dead, so the only way to do this is clone new ones or time travel. This being Barry, I think we know which he will choose. I really do hope they will stay dead, though. I liked Ralph but easy fixes to death ruin things if you try to make the deaths meaningful.

well if they want an easy fix they keeped third wells since he has more character then harry the angsty but time travel is might be on the table but first things first they gonna need save wells and best time travel scnerio needs city destroyer of a event and we dont have it on horizon.

[Cheesegear]

I wouldn't be surprised if Joe has put a few people in the ground and he's consistently the moral center of the team

Joe is frequently shooting at bad guys. I assume that he hasn't been trained to miss, and that he has, in fact, been trained to shoot centre-mass.
Joe is intending to kill bad guys. The fact that he doesn't, is due to how ratings work.

The next thing is, how far can you actually go without killing someone? But still may as well have?
Providing the team could (or will) come up with some sort of workaround to able to touch DeVoe, could Barry - or anyone - simply bash his head in, causing multiple concussions, almost certain brain damage, and potential coma. But it wouldn't be 'killing', would it?

It frustrates me when shows say 'No killing', but what they really mean, is 'No significant harm'.

Batman doesn't kill. Sure. But why not take a crowbar to Joker's head for a few rounds, for old time's sake.

[random11]

In CW, I lost all hope of a character actually dying after being in more than one episode.

If they die, they will be revived.
If they are not revived, they get a duplicate from an alternate dimension/timeline.
Worst case scenario - They disappear to "Legends of Tomorrow", only to be seen in crossovers.

[comicshorse]

The no killing thing is so dumb... It makes sense in comics because of the comic code and the need to have reoccurring villains but in anything trying to be even remotely realistic it makes no sense. Every police force and law code I'm familiar with in the world as well as most rules of engagement considers killing to defend your life or the life of others to be a last but acceptable resort, I don't get why being able to stretch changes that. Hell they live in a crime ridden city, I wouldn't be surprised if Joe has put a few people in the ground and he's consistently the moral center of the team, plus their friends the Legends have a body count in the hundreds.

Green Arrow probably has a body count in the hundreds on his own

[BWR]

Green Arrow probably has a body count in the hundreds on his own

Only if he's killed all these hundreds off screen.

[random11]

The no killing thing is so dumb... It makes sense in comics because of the comic code and the need to have reoccurring villains but in anything trying to be even remotely realistic it makes no sense. Every police force and law code I'm familiar with in the world as well as most rules of engagement considers killing to defend your life or the life of others to be a last but acceptable resort, I don't get why being able to stretch changes that. Hell they live in a crime ridden city, I wouldn't be surprised if Joe has put a few people in the ground and he's consistently the moral center of the team, plus their friends the Legends have a body count in the hundreds.

For me, the annoying part about this "no killing" thing is the timing.
It was a pointless conflict that was obviously there just to make them not go together.

Also, let's not pretend that the 1.5 square meter cell without even a toilet is much more humane...

[khadgar567]

For me, the annoying part about this "no killing" thing is the timing.
It was a pointless conflict that was obviously there just to make them not go together.

Also, let's not pretend that the 1.5 square meter cell without even a toilet is much more humane...

I think they just have enough room since two of the captured people can escape at their leisure any time they want( folded man and the mirror master) and folded man just need yoda mat size area to gtfo from there at any time.

[The New Bruceski]

So we've had Canary, White Canary, Black Canary, Black Siren, and now Brown(shirt) Canary. Am I missing anyone?

[khadgar567]

So we've had Canary, White Canary, Black Canary, Black Siren, and now Brown(shirt) Canary. Am I missing anyone?

you are missing 99 other clones of same character named something canary all somehow look like laurel lance. call highlander crew she might be immortal.

[Pex]

Funny how Devoe calls Snart "snot" or is that just the actor's accent? Even if it is perhaps they kept it in on purpose for the funny.

[khadgar567]

As far as i want to say i said so but its not. ms devoe finally snapped and grabbed the biggest toy in the tinkers hand and it was( cue the bobby roode theme music) glorious. poor cisco needs a break realy and caitlyn decides to find her inner psycho via upcoming journey. so nice episode this week folks.

[random11]

So we've had Canary, White Canary, Black Canary, Black Siren, and now Brown(shirt) Canary. Am I missing anyone?

I still think we have more speedsters than screaming birds, but it's a close one.
Rivaled only by the number of archers in Arrow.

Anyway, regarding the recent episode, his master plan is to make all the world except him stupid?
He does know it's a CW world, so his plan is 70% done anyway, right?

Also, I think it's kind of humiliating that they finally managed to surprise and drop Devoe, only to lose because of a normal woman with a pointy stick.

[FreddyNoNose]

I think for season 5, they should try what agents of shield did in season 4 by having 3 arcs in it. These season long villains have become a drag to me.

[Mordar]

Also, I think it's kind of humiliating that they finally managed to surprise and drop Devoe, only to lose because of a normal woman with a pointy stick.

[deadhorse]...and then to stand there doing nothing until Leader Iris chimes in...[/deadhorse]

Speaking of which...what exactly did Caitlyn risk that Cisco and Barry didn't? "You could have been killed?" Yup...Devoe has had zero issues killing any number of normal or meta folks so far. Why is Caitlyn's life now more valuable than Cisco or Barry?

- M

[comicshorse]

Speaking of which...what exactly did Caitlyn risk that Cisco and Barry didn't? "You could have been killed?" Yup...Devoe has had zero issues killing any number of normal or meta folks so far. Why is Caitlyn's life now more valuable than Cisco or Barry?

- M

I thought it was that she was taking a greater risk than them because she doesn't have powers anymore

[Mordar]

I thought it was that she was taking a greater risk than them because she doesn't have powers anymore

I understand that's what drove the motivation in the script...I guess my question is more along the lines of why. Cisco is just as vulnerable as Caitlyn...he doesn't have any defensive powers, armor or superspeed to avoid being hit. Heck, he can't even handle someone that Iris manages to hold off (for a little while, anyway) in a previous fight.

Caitlyn manages to tag Devoe with the freeze gun (which really should have caused more damage), displaying greater competence than Cisco, greater effect than Gypsy and greater initiative than Barry (well, we know his hesitation and cluelessness was just to give Iris a chance to "lead"). She's not the one that needs a talking to after the encounter.

- M

[Pex]

I agree a supervillain whole season story arc is getting stale. It becomes disheartening when every episode ends in failure. Any victory they do get is taken away a few episodes later. Obviously there needs to be conflict to have a story. Not having an easy victory is the drama, and you get to be the hero when you achieve the final victory. However, always losing every episode gives it a sense of wasting our time with nothingness. Get to the point already.

[thorgrim29]

Well Amunet is still a terrible, terrible character. Rest of the episode was fine.

[dancrilis]

Well Amunet is still a terrible, terrible character. Rest of the episode was fine.

I don't know - the win that they had was that now normal people are on the lookout for a super smart body-hopping shapeshifter ... that sounds like some writer didn't think things through (or at least the characters didn't).

[BWR]

. that sounds like some writer didn't think things through

This is true of pretty much the entire show.

[Reddish Mage]

Joe is frequently shooting at bad guys. I assume that he hasn't been trained to miss, and that he has, in fact, been trained to shoot centre-mass.
Joe is intending to kill bad guys. The fact that he doesn't, is due to how ratings work.

The next thing is, how far can you actually go without killing someone? But still may as well have?
Providing the team could (or will) come up with some sort of workaround to able to touch DeVoe, could Barry - or anyone - simply bash his head in, causing multiple concussions, almost certain brain damage, and potential coma. But it wouldn't be 'killing', would it?

It frustrates me when shows say 'No killing', but what they really mean, is 'No significant harm'.

Batman doesn't kill. Sure. But why not take a crowbar to Joker's head for a few rounds, for old time's sake.

I don't know what the parameters are of the "no killing" rule. Some shows the villains just tend to die because of their own actions or by accident in the confrontation and that's enough to satisfy the rule. Some of these characters are not going to torture or cause a great degree of pain, but often time concussion is an option for a quick and consequence free way of defusing confrontations.

Of course, what you are suggesting obviously comes with a great deal of risk of death anyone can see, as well as gruesome behavior on the heroes part. You expect them to encapsulate their morality with a nice pithy and accurate statement? They're vigilantes not philosophers, they are not even cops.

For me, the annoying part about this "no killing" thing is the timing.
It was a pointless conflict that was obviously there just to make them not go together.

Also, let's not pretend that the 1.5 square meter cell without even a toilet is much more humane...

I agree. I find the writing on Flash has been very lazy for a very long time now. Also, the fact that Ralph's abstention from killing DeVoe preceded his death itself speaks to the consequences of letting DeVoe live.

The vague spirituality Ralph speaks of being "saved" right before being absorbed by DeVoe is meant to put a period of Ralphs journey to being redeemed as a hero, but its hardly profound. In the end though, that sense great morality behind superheroes letting their villains live is something it seems every instance of this genre goes back to again and again and again.

Also, ignore the parameters of the cell and the implications they are imprisoning people in prolonged solitary without adequate resources. Its obviously supposed to be humane as they occasionally put Barry in there and the rest of the team has used the cells on one another or voluntarily from time to time.

You can complain about the killing as its something the show is constantly harping on, but going after the prison accommodations as not including bathrooms is taking visual depictions of the show a little too seriously.

[comicshorse]

Also, ignore the parameters of the cell and the implications they are imprisoning people in prolonged solitary without adequate resources. Its obviously supposed to be humane as they occasionally put Barry in there and the rest of the team has used the cells on one another or voluntarily from time to time.

But there is all the difference in the world to going into one of those cells voluntarily knowing you're friends are working to get you out of there as soon as possible and seeing the cell door shut and knowing that is all you are going to see for the rest of your life

P.S
Though now I think about it aren't all the Meta's supposed to be in Iron Heights now

[Mikemical]

I'm still mad because Ralph was right about putting Davoe down and he had been growing on me, seeing him turn his life around.

Also because I'm a sucker for Plastic Man and derivatives.

[Reddish Mage]

But there is all the difference in the world to going into one of those cells voluntarily knowing you're friends are working to get you out of there as soon as possible and seeing the cell door shut and knowing that is all you are going to see for the rest of your life

P.S
Though now I think about it aren't all the Meta's supposed to be in Iron Heights now

There is that. Also, long prison sentences aren’t really a thing in superhero world. Everyone gets out, gets acquitted, or escapes or transferred to be used for unspeakable human experimentation or something.

I'm still mad because Ralph was right about putting Davoe down and he had been growing on me, seeing him turn his life around.

Also because I'm a sucker for Plastic Man and derivatives.

I was completely turned off when Oliver adopted the rule in Season 2 and stopped following the show. From the bits I gather, unlike Flash, I believe Arrow is still constantly harping on the notion that killing is inherently immoral and Oliver has to struggle to get beyond that (as well as deal with the consequences of his occasional slips).

Its a genre conceit. Its no less realistic than the notion that a small team of eclectic geniuses with no care for procedure can effectively police. That a city would accept crisis level events every month or so and continue as normal. That normal guys with guns are completely useless against superheroes whose powersets don’t include bullet immunity. Or that a super-elite hacker can instantly determine the location of anyone anywhere in the city by hacking security cameras and also you can pull up a full workup on just about everyone.

[Mordar]

Well Amunet is still a terrible, terrible character. Rest of the episode was fine.

So the plan was for Amunet to fling her little metal thingies into space and take out a satellite. Okay, I'll buy that. If only "Team Flash" had some other way to fling some object into space to destroy a satellite that doesn't involve an electronic guidance system. I wonder where they could find something that would impart enough velocity to an object to allow it to break orbit and smash through a satellite. Seems like generating that kind of exit velocity would require a lot of speed and really good timing.

I don't know - the win that they had was that now normal people are on the lookout for a super smart body-hopping shapeshifter ... that sounds like some writer didn't think things through (or at least the characters didn't).

That is *way* better than having face-scanning technology that can tap into every security camera in the city instantaneously. Now there's no way Devoe can hide from Iris' army of social media contacts that strangely are not in a panic and rioting about the fact that the Evil Genius has a WMD(e-intelligentification) that is going to stupefy the whole world...and are also willing to believe her "publication". He might as well cash it in now and give up on his plan. After all, it isn't like he can change the way he looks/sounds at will, or...you know...move to a different town until he is ready to launch.

In a more serious vein, I was actually excited by the fact that Iris wanted to write again. Right up until the why and how came to light.

- M

[Cheesegear]

They're vigilantes not philosophers, they are not even cops.

That's the problem. The Flash routinely works with Joe West - and the rest of the police department. Joe - and police - are shooting to kill.
Terrorists are threatening the city with a nuke. The police are shooting to kill. Why doesn't Flash?

First time a prison break out happens, fair enough. Unfortunately, it happens.
Second time, possibly a coincidence.
Third time, that's a pattern.

If, every time a prisoner breaks out of prison - super-powers or not - they're using their freedom to terrorise and kill multiple people; Something has gone horribly wrong with the 'no kill' system. Prison only works, if people stay in it. Continuing this line of thought goes right into death penalty territory and real-world politics...Still, that's where Daredevil comes in, and beats someone's head until their brain bleeds - it's really hard to continue committing crimes you can't be prosecuted for, when you have brain damage.

Still, on-screen, like I said, I have to assume that Joe is part of a police force that hasn't been trained to miss. The fact that the antagonists are bulletproof, doesn't remove intent. Why is Flash different? By the time Barry and Ralph have their discussion on the 'no kill' rule, DeVoe had already killed at least 10 people and was explicitly planning to directly kill a protagonist on the team.

DeVoe is going to kill your friend, Barry. Don't you think about now is the time to step up? It's time to shoot to kill, or your friend, dies.

...Too late.