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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    14/10 Vaarsuvius
    ... He didn't blame me.
    I ... I must succeed.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Walking on the path into darkness for seemingly noble goals is easy.
    Trying to leave it is not.

    I vote for Vaarsuvius.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

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    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")



  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Walking on the path into darkness for seemingly noble goals is easy.
    Trying to leave it is not.

    I vote for Vaarsuvius.
    Saying you'll do something is much easier than actually doing it.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    The elf never said that.
    ... He didn't blame me.
    I ... I must succeed.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    This is a hard decision for me.
    But I'll have to go Redcloak.
    Official Kosh of the Vorlon in the dark fan club
    -- Lothos now Half Orc in playground, other half also Orc --

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Nod for Redcloak

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    My vote is Vaarsuvius
    Good night sweet prince: And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    V

    Redcloak is a good evil guy, but I like V better

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    17/12 Vaarsuvius. Closes in about 24.
    ... He didn't blame me.
    I ... I must succeed.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Start of Darkness was the first OOTS book I ever read, so I might be a bit biased

    Redcloak
    "We can curse it or nurse it and give it a name"

    "And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
    Racing around to come up behind you again.
    The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older,
    Shorter of breath and one day closer to death."

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Imp

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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Definite vote for the #1 prepared caster in OOTS-verse.

    (Redcloak)

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Arrow View Post
    Definite vote for the #1 prepared caster in OOTS-verse.
    Do you mean a caster who has to prepare spells, or "caster who happens to also be prepared for most problems?" Because if it's the second, I'd honestly argue Xykon or Durkon. Xykon for the end of Start of Darkness, and Durkon because... well, I just love this.

    Durkon's also the answer to the first one for me.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatomade View Post
    Do you mean a caster who has to prepare spells, or "caster who happens to also be prepared for most problems?" Because if it's the second, I'd honestly argue Xykon or Durkon. Xykon for the end of Start of Darkness, and Durkon because... well, I just love this.

    Durkon's also the answer to the first one for me.
    Durkon is so regularly unprepared for every situation that it was actually lampshaded in the comic.

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html

    Besides, "preparing your most powerful spell which does extra damage to Evil enemies on a day when you'll be fighting Evil enemies" isn't being prepared, it's just having common sense.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2017-10-17 at 09:49 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Maybe, but I recall him being the game-changing force in a number of confrontations. More than V, anyway. And the only time Redcloak's actually been significant in an encounter was Azure City, at least as a caster. Besides, if I were going to point to a poster child for "unprepared caster," it would be V, who despite preparing the right spells, rarely foresees the consequences of their casting.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Walking on the path into darkness for seemingly noble goals may be easy and trying to leave it may be hard, but walking on the path into darkness for sheer sadism, ego, and casually genocidal racism makes a far less appealing character than a tragic villain.

    Redcloak.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    See, and I'd argue that sadistic, egotistical, genocidal racist was Redcloak.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatomade View Post
    Maybe, but I recall him being the game-changing force in a number of confrontations. More than V, anyway. And the only time Redcloak's actually been significant in an encounter was Azure City, at least as a caster.
    Divine Might and Holy Word are two incredibly powerful spells that ever Cleric, everywhere, prepares every day. The fact that he had these on tap literally proves nothing. Divine Might and Holy Word are two incredibly powerful spells that would be prepared in almost any combat situation.Control Weather, I'll give you, was pretty clever

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatomade View Post
    Besides, if I were going to point to a poster child for "unprepared caster," it would be V, who despite preparing the right spells, rarely foresees the consequences of their casting.
    It's kinda funny. In your first post you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatomade View Post
    Do you mean a caster who has to prepare spells, or "caster who happens to also be prepared for most problems?" Because if it's the second, I'd honestly argue Xykon or Durkon.

    and then proceeded to give reasons why Durkon is the first type, not the second. If you want to argue that "Durkon is the best caster who has to prepare spells", then his use of Holy Word and Divine Might, and V's failure to foresee the consequences of their actions, are very valid arguments. But instead you argue that "Durkon is prepared for most problems more than V", and then immediately agree that V always seems to have the right spells prepared, and give examples of Durkon just doing normal Cleric stuff in an intelligent way. None of the things you have said in either post point to Durkon being "more prepared" than V, or anyone else for that matter. You're making a great argument, you're just using it to prove the wrong thing.

    (I mean: "Besides, if I were going to point to a poster child for "unprepared caster," it would be V, who despite preparing the right spells..." You literally said the poster child for being unprepared is the person who is prepared)


    Who is prepared for every circumstance? V, by far.

    Who is a better ally to have in a fight? Almost certainly Durkon.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2017-10-17 at 10:15 AM.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    There's no such thing as a spell that every cleric, everywhere, prepares every day--the distress of this forum's optimization culture when such things are pointed out aside.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    There's no such thing as a spell that every cleric, everywhere, prepares every day--the distress of this forum's optimization culture when such things are pointed out aside.
    You're right, I changed it.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It's kinda funny. In your first post you said:


    and then proceeded to give reasons why Durkon is the first type, not the second. If you want to argue that "Durkon is the best caster who has to prepare spells", then his use of Holy Word and Divine Might, and V's failure to foresee the consequences of their actions, are very valid arguments. But instead you argue that "Durkon is prepared for most problems more than V", and then immediately agree that V always seems to have the right spells prepared, and give examples of Durkon just doing normal Cleric stuff in an intelligent way. None of the things you have said in either post point to Durkon being "more prepared" than V, or anyone else for that matter. You're making a great argument, you're just using it to prove the wrong thing.

    (I mean: "Besides, if I were going to point to a poster child for "unprepared caster," it would be V, who despite preparing the right spells..." You literally said the poster child for being unprepared is the person who is prepared)

    The thing is, being prepared for most problems also entails understanding the consequences of casting your spells. That's a necessary prerequisite. Bringing the right tools is ALSO necessary, but they do no good if you don't know how to use them properly. And that's where Durkon succeeds and V fails. Durkon knows how use his tools to accomplish tasks intended for other tools (here), has a pretty good toolkit to begin with (here) and most importantly, knows when to use those tools (here).
    Last edited by Potatomade; 2017-10-17 at 10:30 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    V is for Vaarsuvius.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Walking on the path into darkness for seemingly noble goals may be easy and trying to leave it may be hard, but walking on the path into darkness for sheer sadism, ego, and casually genocidal racism makes a far less appealing character than a tragic villain.

    Redcloak.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    18/15 Vaarsuvius.
    ... He didn't blame me.
    I ... I must succeed.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Peelee's Avatar

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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Speaking of casually genocidal racism, both have displayed that. Upon realizing their heinousness, both were horrified. In response to their horror at their actions, one decided to try to stop displaying casually genocidal racism, and one just allowed a couple of groups to be excluded from their casually genocidal racism. I do agree one is tragic, I just disagree on which one.

    Vaarsuvius.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Is V's story really all that tragic? Has she suffered a personal loss other than being served with divorce papers? Did she lose sight of some deeply-held principle when she cast Familicide? Has her realization that she did wrong caused her to pay some steep price for repentance?

    Redcloak had a lot farther to fall than Vaarsuvius did.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Is V's story really all that tragic? Has she suffered a personal loss other than being served with divorce papers? Did she lose sight of some deeply-held principle when she cast Familicide? Has her realization that she did wrong caused her to pay some steep price for repentance?

    Redcloak had a lot farther to fall than Vaarsuvius did.
    V would certainly say there is a steep price for his repentance. Notwithstanding that Redcloak has zero interest in repentance to begin with. Redcloak had a lot farther to fall, sure, but he fell and then started digging.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    And I'd say losing all self-respect and having a totally shattered worldview counts as a "personal loss." Really, apart from the Order and the mission, what does V have anymore? He/she doesn't have a life outside of this any longer.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    V would certainly say there is a steep price for his repentance.
    That being....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Notwithstanding that Redcloak has zero interest in repentance to begin with. Redcloak had a lot farther to fall, sure, but he fell and then started digging.
    Redcloak isn't in a redemptive plotline and indeed may well never be. But the fact that he had farther to fall means "what could have been" is much more of a loss for him than for Vaarsuvius. But V's fall is alleged as the greater tragedy. Or the true tragedy, actually, apparently Redcloak's story isn't tragic at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatomade View Post
    And I'd say losing all self-respect and having a totally shattered worldview counts as a "personal loss." Really, apart from the Order and the mission, what does V have anymore? He/she doesn't have a life outside of this any longer.
    V was such an arrogant jerk prior to the Soul Splice arc that I would think having some humility pounded into her could only be a good thing. It's not like she's a complete emotional wreck constantly on the verge of tears or anything. She had a breakdown at the pyramid but there's been no repeat of that behavior. She also has an extremely supportive team of friends behind her.

    V lost her spouse (and children) to divorce. That's sad, but... a tragedy? And if "has no life outside the mission" is considered tragic, well... Redcloak would probably be the most tragic person in the series then, wouldn't he? He doesn't even have a name outside the mission!
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2017-10-17 at 04:23 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    V was such an arrogant jerk prior to the Soul Splice arc that I would think having some humility pounded into her could only be a good thing. It's not like she's a complete emotional wreck constantly on the verge of tears or anything. She had a breakdown at the pyramid but there's been no repeat of that behavior. She also has an extremely supportive team of friends behind her.
    Well, yeah. Constant breakdowns would get tiresome, storytelling-wise. This is still essentially a comedy with substantial adventure elements and a good plot. You can't have it be much of a comedy if one of the ensemble cast is constantly boo-hooing about past deeds, and it gets irritating in other contexts, too. V just has to buckle up and get the job done, so he/she is doing that. None of that keeps V's story from being tragic.

    V lost her spouse (and children) to divorce. That's sad, but... a tragedy?
    Considering how much somebody's family can mean to them, I'd say yeah, that's totally a tragedy. That can hurt as much or more than anything else, knowing that someone who used to love you doesn't anymore. And I wouldn't exactly say that V's gotten over it.



    And if "has no life outside the mission" is considered tragic, well... Redcloak would probably be the most tragic person in the series then, wouldn't he? He doesn't even have a name outside the mission!
    Well, yeah, that's what some people would argue. I don't think Redcloak is tragic at all, but that's just because he's ridiculously insane, not because he hasn't suffered enough for his goals.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatomade View Post
    The thing is, being prepared for most problems also entails understanding the consequences of casting your spells. That's a necessary prerequisite. Bringing the right tools is ALSO necessary, but they do no good if you don't know how to use them properly. And that's where Durkon succeeds and V fails. Durkon knows how use his tools to accomplish tasks intended for other tools (here), has a pretty good toolkit to begin with (here) and most importantly, knows when to use those tools (here).
    You are absolutely correct. When Durkon happens to prepare the right tools, he uses them effectively. Unfortunately, this happens so rarely that, when Durkula prepared correctly for a job, Belkar even said "He had a spell prepared that can actually solve our problem! That proves he can't possibly be Durkon!"

    Which is why he is the best "prepared caster" and not the "best prepared" caster. When you're the "best prepared" caster, your teammates don't usually comment on how you're never prepared.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2017-10-17 at 05:35 PM.
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