Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

[Peelee]

That being....?

Indeed. What price paid could ever be enough? Even then, he still wants to make restitution, even if he doesn't know how.

Well, yeah, that's what some people would argue. I don't think Redcloak is tragic at all, but that's just because he's ridiculously insane, not because he hasn't suffered enough for his goals.

Also, his full embrace of his fall.

[B. Dandelion]

Indeed. What price paid could ever be enough? Even then, he still wants to make restitution, even if he doesn't know how.

I think my issue here is that you alleged V's story was tragic while Redcloak's isn't, when the argument you seem to actually want to have is the one about whether V is presently more moral than Redcloak. It's much easier to make that argument, and one can bring up the many... words... Vaarsuvius has spent on how bad she feels and how important making amends should be, and point to that as signs of her sacrifice -- because even acknowledgement of guilt is more than Redcloak has done to atone.

But "V's done more to atone" isn't the point, and even if were, V has in fact done very little so far. Her redemptive plotline is mostly in its infancy. Trying to compare her situation in terms of tragedy to his actually makes her look worse, because she was arrogant right to start out with and has suffered comparably quite less.

"I like Vaarsuvius and vote for her because she's actually working to improve while Redcloak continues to fall further and further" is a fine argument but it wasn't what I took issue with. It's "V is tragic while Redcloak isn't" -- well, why? What's so tragic about her fall from grace?

[alwaysbebatman]

Meanwhile, Vaarsuvius wins 19/15. Weird, huh?

[Peelee]

I
"I like Vaarsuvius and vote for her because she's actually working to improve while Redcloak continues to fall further and further" is a fine argument but it wasn't what I took issue with. It's "V is tragic while Redcloak isn't" -- well, why? What's so tragic about her fall from grace?

V put power above all else. Put off his mate, his children, his personal life, all to attain more power. And he got it, too. He was even given the choice directly by his mate, the choice of power or family. He chose power. He then lost both. Id call that a tragic arc.

Meanwhile, Redcloak sees his own depravity, and chooses to be more depraved. He's anted, lost, and just stayed at the table making bigger and bigger bets. When he finally goes bust, I won't be sorry.

Start of Darkness was a tragedy until the end. When he did what he did in that battle, he stopped being tragic. When he looks in the mirror and affirms it'll be worth it, he's nothing more than a self-righteous ass.

[MrMercury]

Well, yeah, that's what some people would argue. I don't think Redcloak is tragic at all, but that's just because he's ridiculously insane, not because he hasn't suffered enough for his goals.

Have you read start of darkness perchance?

[Potatomade]

Have you read start of darkness perchance?

Yes, and that's exactly what makes me think Redcloak is loonier than Xykon, Belkar, and Tarquin put together.

Spoiler

Show

At least they're not willing to wipe out all life to prove a point. Pretending to be pro-goblinoid when you're a-OK with letting every last one of them get unmade (so no serving the Dark One for them!) is ass-slapping crazy, and kills any sympathy I might have had for Redcloak.

[Kish]

V put power above all else. Put off his mate, his children, his personal life, all to attain more power. And he got it, too. He was even given the choice directly by his mate, the choice of power or family. He chose power. He then lost both. Id call that a tragic arc.

Lost both? I know Vaarsuvius just got a negative level or two, but I'm not seeing where they stopped being a mighty wizard, or stopped increasing their power as a wizard. Keeping the Soul Splice power forever was never an option; that they didn't realize there would be a time limit on their "complete and total ultimate arcane power" resulted from nothing more grand than them wording their question to the Oracle carelessly. They kept the Soul Splice until it was torn from them.

Meanwhile, Redcloak sees his own depravity, and chooses to be more depraved. He's anted, lost, and just stayed at the table making bigger and bigger bets. When he finally goes bust, I won't be sorry.

Start of Darkness was a tragedy until the end. When he did what he did in that battle, he stopped being tragic. When he looks in the mirror and affirms it'll be worth it, he's nothing more than a self-righteous ass.

Sticking to your bad choice until the end is not part of the definition of a tragic villain, but in fact nullifies it? Lots of Shakespeare characters need to be reclassified then.

And damned be him that first cries "Hold, enough!"

On an unrelated note, observing this post's mentioning one of Redcloak's murders but making no reference at all to Vaarsuvius' crimes, I wonder how much of a correlation there is between rating Vaarsuvius highly, and finding genocidal racism against "monsters" something less then entirely condemnable.

[D.One]

Vaarsuvius

Because he's a wizard, and I like wizards
Because she's developing more and more as a character
Because yes
Just because

[Arkku]

Meanwhile, Vaarsuvius wins 19/15. Weird, huh?

Personally I expected this outcome, so it doesn't seem weird at all… I feel the two characters are in some sense quite similar and thus probably have a lot of overlapping "fans" (voters). In Redcloak vs Belkar those overlapping votes would have gone to Redcloak along with votes from those preferring the more "serious" characters over comedy ones (such as Belkar), but in Redcloak vs Vaarsuvius their order was #1 V and #2 Red in the preliminary ranking already.

[Peelee]

Lost both? I know Vaarsuvius just got a negative level or two, but I'm not seeing where they stopped being a mighty wizard, or stopped increasing their power as a wizard.

Damn, and I even wrote that his mate asked him to erase "wizard" on his character sheet. Apparently.

Yes, the soul splice was never permanent. However, V never willingly have any of the splices up.

And calls to me not agreeing with genocidal racism aside, I'm obliquely referring to one specific murder. I believe every time I've mentioned Redcloak's genocidal racism, I've also mentioned V's. But feel free to throw around accusations like it's nothing. It's endearing.

[Roberto]

Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak

[Ruck]

Sticking to your bad choice until the end is not part of the definition of a tragic villain, but in fact nullifies it? Lots of Shakespeare characters need to be reclassified then.

And damned be him that first cries "Hold, enough!"

I agree with you on this. If Macbeth decides "Darn, I really screwed this up, I should abdicate," that doesn't become more of a tragedy.

On an unrelated note, observing this post's mentioning one of Redcloak's murders but making no reference at all to Vaarsuvius' crimes, I wonder how much of a correlation there is between rating Vaarsuvius highly, and finding genocidal racism against "monsters" something less then entirely condemnable.

I for one am weary of and find shallow and superficial the idea that you can judge a person's character by their tastes in fiction.

[B. Dandelion]

V put power above all else. Put off his mate, his children, his personal life, all to attain more power. And he got it, too. He was even given the choice directly by his mate, the choice of power or family. He chose power. He then lost both. Id call that a tragic arc.

It's so odd. It wasn't long ago that I was arguing with Jasdoif about how Redcloak's choices being generally restricted between awful options was a major part of his character. I hadn't even thought to contrast that with any other character, but you specifically bring to my attention the example of Vaarsuvius being provided a good option -- and actually passing it up. I'll keep it in mind should occasion arise for me to revisit that argument.

Speaking of irony, yeah. "Be Careful What You Wish For." As Kish noted, Vaarsuvius was never offered permanent power by the fiends and after losing the Splices she still remains a high-level wizard. Her family is likewise "lost" to her but still alive and well. So... she got divorced and lost power she was told she wouldn't be able to keep forever anyway, and that's not just something that rises to the level of tragedy, but is a worse tragedy than Redcloak's?

Meanwhile, Redcloak sees his own depravity, and chooses to be more depraved. He's anted, lost, and just stayed at the table making bigger and bigger bets. When he finally goes bust, I won't be sorry.

Start of Darkness was a tragedy until the end. When he did what he did in that battle, he stopped being tragic. When he looks in the mirror and affirms it'll be worth it, he's nothing more than a self-righteous ass.

Okay. So Redcloak was tragic but ceased to have that quality once he became too evil and you no longer sympathized with him.

But would V then not be tragic if she hadn't (eventually) realized genocide is evil and that Familicide was a mistake? If Redcloak owned up to his mistakes would he retroactively become tragic again? Maybe there would be a "tragedy gap" in his timeline that he's only tragic outside of?

It still very much sounds like this is more about sympathy than tragedy. I appreciate you explaining your position, but I think it's one that's all but impossible to sustain without some kind of radical redefinition of terms. It's not really necessary. V can be more sympathetic, likable, or otherwise worthy of your preference than Redcloak without being more tragic. It's not a desirable trait for characters you like anyway. Being tragic is quite possibly going to translate for him as "dies unredeemed" (or the slightly lesser alternative in "dies as redemption"). V will not meet such an ignoble end.

[drazen]

It's a really, really hard call. Redcloak's Captain Ahab is wonderfully done, but I've always had a soft spot for Vaarsuvius, so I think I'll go that way.

But it's really, really close.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Redcloak, if this is still open.

[Hamste]

Meanwhile, Vaarsuvius wins 19/15. Weird, huh?

It is unfortunately closed. At least your vote wouldn't have been the tie breaker or anything.

[Meijin]

V. I'm a fan of well handled gender ambiguity.

[Meijin]

Although Redcloak's cleric duel was one of my favorite strips.