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    Default Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Prestidigitation, Greater
    Universal
    Level: Wiz 5
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 10 minutes
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: 1 hour/level (D)

    Your magic readily plays out any parlour tricks you require.

    You gain the ability to use any 0th-level spell and any 1st-level wizard or sorcerer spell at will as a spell-like ability, with the following provisos:

    If the spell requires an XP cost, you must provide that cost.

    If the spell requires an expensive material or focus component, you must pay the component's gold piece value in XP, or a minimum of 1 XP, whichever is more.

    If the spell requires a focus component, you must create one first or otherwise provide one, though it need not have any material value. The small, obviously-magical items created by prestidigitation are suitable for this purpose, though any effect linked to such a focus ends when the focus vanishes.

    If this spell is dispelled or dismissed, any ongoing effects from the spell-like abilities also end.

    Certain spells may not be replicable via this spell, as determined by the DM.

    Omnipotence
    Universal
    Level: Wiz 9
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 10 minutes
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: 1 hour/level (D)

    The magic surges around you and through you, transforming your whims into reality.

    This spell functions as greater prestidigitation, save that you may duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 3rd level or lower and any other spell of 2nd level or lower.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-10-16 at 07:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Uhm.... you know anyspell and greater anyspell are some of the more powerful spells right...?
    These are a tad powerful...
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Uhm.... you know anyspell and greater anyspell are some of the more powerful spells right...?
    These are a tad powerful...
    "...any wizard or sorcerer spell of Xth level at will..."

    (a tweaked quote that explains the spirit of things as I understand it)

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    "...any wizard or sorcerer spell of Xth level at will..."

    (a tweaked quote that explains the spirit of things as I understand it)
    Missed the at will... This is terrifying XD
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    On the one hand...crazy powerful. On the other hand, I think I can work out a reasonable balance for most of these. I'll be back with what I come up with.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    As written, they're probably overpowered. Not necessarily from a basic combat perspective - for immediate use in a fight, you probably want the direct impact of an actual high-level spell. But these are just nuts for out-of-combat application and especially for buffing. Extend the Potence to make sure it covers your entire day or more and you effectively have Persisted every available spell with a duration of minute/level or longer.. and you don't even have to jump through the hoops to make normally non-usable spells Persisted, because you just recast them at will. (Drew the line at minutes because there's so many rounds/level spells that you'd probably not actually have enough time to do anything else if you tried to keep them all up.. and a lot of them aren't notably worth trying to have on all the time anyways.) Infinite supply of Immediate-action responses like Wings of Cover and Ruin Delver's Fortune. Infinite heals (not that that's necessarily a bad thing) because you can mimic other class's spell lists.

    Up to Greater Potence, I think, might not be too bad, but when you hit Omnipotence/Limited you're giving too much power for at-will with so few limits. If you could use these spells, you'd have to be mad to not do so.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Wizzy the Wizard achieves fifth level, and allows himself a small smile. An invading army is on its way, but Wizzy isn't worried. No, he has plans.

    The commander of the dark forces looks over the horizon. A horse slowly fades into view. Then another. Then another. Before she knows it, the commander is beset by an onrush of horses. Confused and vulnerable, the army tries to fend off the horses, but it seems that another one is always coming to get them...

    "Lesser potence. Mount. Mount. Mount. Mount. Mount..."
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Let me ask you, OP- what is your goal with these spells?

    Are you aiming to give casters some sort of power-boost? Or do you just not like tracking what spells a caster knows or has prepared? In general, spells that are actually many-spells-in-one (Shapeshift, Summon Monster, etc) tend to be among the more unbalanced on the side of over-powered. Whatever spells a caster knows or has prepares is one of the few restrictions on their power and versatility, basically giving them access to every Sorc/Wiz spell ever printed below a certain level, PLUS spells from other classes just feels wrong to me- it's like another version of Wish. The extra spell-slot levels needed to use these doesn't nearly compensate IMO.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2017-10-12 at 10:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Uhm.... you know anyspell and greater anyspell are some of the more powerful spells right...?
    These are a tad powerful...
    Yeah, I'm quite open to adjusting casting times and the spell levels they can duplicate. I try to stick to Core so I hadn't though of anyspell - I used wish/limited wish/miracle as a template but clearly I need to bump down the replicable spell levels haha!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragovon View Post
    On the one hand...crazy powerful. On the other hand, I think I can work out a reasonable balance for most of these. I'll be back with what I come up with.
    I look forward to it!

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    As written, they're probably overpowered. Not necessarily from a basic combat perspective - for immediate use in a fight, you probably want the direct impact of an actual high-level spell. But these are just nuts for out-of-combat application and especially for buffing. Extend the Potence to make sure it covers your entire day or more and you effectively have Persisted every available spell with a duration of minute/level or longer.. and you don't even have to jump through the hoops to make normally non-usable spells Persisted, because you just recast them at will. (Drew the line at minutes because there's so many rounds/level spells that you'd probably not actually have enough time to do anything else if you tried to keep them all up.. and a lot of them aren't notably worth trying to have on all the time anyways.) Infinite supply of Immediate-action responses like Wings of Cover and Ruin Delver's Fortune. Infinite heals (not that that's necessarily a bad thing) because you can mimic other class's spell lists.

    Up to Greater Potence, I think, might not be too bad, but when you hit Omnipotence/Limited you're giving too much power for at-will with so few limits. If you could use these spells, you'd have to be mad to not do so.
    Righto. I try not to let non-Core stuff influence my homebrew too much so these definitely are existing in an artificial vacuum. I'll alter the power levels, hopefully they'll be balanced for Core at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Wizzy the Wizard achieves fifth level, and allows himself a small smile. An invading army is on its way, but Wizzy isn't worried. No, he has plans.

    The commander of the dark forces looks over the horizon. A horse slowly fades into view. Then another. Then another. Before she knows it, the commander is beset by an onrush of horses. Confused and vulnerable, the army tries to fend off the horses, but it seems that another one is always coming to get them...

    "Lesser potence. Mount. Mount. Mount. Mount. Mount..."
    It'll revolutionise the industry :D Can mounts attack though? I feel like it'd make summon monster I (and II, even) obsolete, especially given the duration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Let me ask you, OP- what is your goal with these spells?

    Are you aiming to give casters some sort of power-boost? Or do you just not like tracking what spells a caster knows or has prepared? In general, spells that are actually many-spells-in-one (Shapeshift, Summon Monster, etc) tend to be among the more unbalanced on the side of over-powered. Whatever spells a caster knows or has prepares is one of the few restrictions on their power and versatility, basically giving them access to every Sorc/Wiz spell ever printed below a certain level, PLUS spells from other classes just feels wrong to me- it's like another version of Wish. The extra spell-slot levels needed to use these doesn't nearly compensate IMO.
    To be frank, it's based off an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer where Willow casts a spell to give herself limited omnipotence (it goes awry because she's heartbroken at the time but that's neither here nor there :D). Shapeshift was indeed my "excuse" for making these spells, though that's obviously a cheat. Another thing was people felt my homebrewed psychic powers spell was too weak, too. I envisioned this as a high-level prestidigitation chain - when you can cast 9th-level spells, using resist energy or scry or even cure critical wounds should be as trifling as any of the effects prestidigitation can do.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Let's put it another way:

    - If you somehow (spell-to-power erudite) got your hands on psionic omnipotence, it would cost 17 power points to manifest.
    - If you have fifth-level powers, which are often as good as fifth-level spells, they would cost 9 power points to manifest.
    - If your fifth-level power of choice takes a standard action to manifest and your manifester level is 17, then psionic omnipotence would save you 91,800 power points while costing you 17.
    - A 17th-level psion with INT 24 has 309 power points.
    - Therefore a single manifestation of psionic omnipotence saves you almost exactly 297 psions.

    Put more simply, your spells are still insanely powerful. Can you say "Tier zero" three times fast?
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    I think we all agree that this is broken and no need to fix it more like ban it asap
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    I think we all agree that this is broken and no need to fix it more like ban it asap
    Meh, I think Greater prestidigitation is pretty decent... I mean you can spam the crappy 1d3 cantrips I guess... if course PF as unlimited... or create water... or light... In fact I would give certain classes like the beguiler/hexblade this as a spell like, the later though will quickly spiral into madness.

    I wouldn't compare spells to (limited) wish/miracle/shapechange as those are considered the most broken spells... unless that is what you are going for?
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I envisioned this as a high-level prestidigitation chain - when you can cast 9th-level spells, using resist energy or scry or even cure critical wounds should be as trifling as any of the effects prestidigitation can do.
    This actually is a pretty good example of how quantity can become quality, I think. As you say, a 2nd-level spell effect is trivial for a character capable of 9ths. What about 20 2nd-level spells? That's how many casts it would take to ward a standard 4-man party against all 5 standard/common energy types with Resist Energy. Or 5 4th level spells, to achieve the same effect using Mass Resist Energy? Then multiply that by the number of times you would need to refresh it to achieve all-day or at least all-expected-combat-time coverage.

    And just staying in 2nd level spells, that gives you Glitterdust (AoE, non-mind-affecting Will save against Blinding never really stops being useful), See Invisibility, Invisibility, Shatter, Command Undead, Blur, Mirror Image, Levitate, and Spider Climb at will. Plus the more niche/less useful spells that may still be the perfect answer to a situation that you wouldn't normally bother with.. but now you can cast them spontaneously at-will.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    To be frank, it's based off an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer where Willow casts a spell to give herself limited omnipotence (it goes awry because she's heartbroken at the time but that's neither here nor there :D). Shapeshift was indeed my "excuse" for making these spells, though that's obviously a cheat. Another thing was people felt my homebrewed psychic powers spell was too weak, too. I envisioned this as a high-level prestidigitation chain - when you can cast 9th-level spells, using resist energy or scry or even cure critical wounds should be as trifling as any of the effects prestidigitation can do.
    Ah ok- I've never watched "Buffy" but I certainly think it's good to take inspiration from many sources. Here's the thing to keep in mind though- some things are good for storytelling, and some things are good for gaming, and they don't always 100% overlap. In a story, the writer has full control over everything that happens, and they can include whatever flaws or backfires are necessary to keep their one-shot super-powerful magic items, or spells, or monsters, from completely breaking the universe. For example- how many times did Willow (or anyone else) use that spell? Did it ever come up again except for the episode where it was introduced? If not, why not?

    In a game though, the GM (i.e. the storyteller) doesn't have that level of control, and if you let the players get their hands on stuff that's OP, they will never give it up and they will spam it over and over again until the setting is reduced to a cloud of ashes. Sometimes, anyway.
    Now, admittedly there are already magic spells in 3.5 core that can break the gameworld like a dry twig. Normally I don't see that as an excuse to add more of them, and prefer to homebrew in the other direction, but if your group is used to dealing with that and no one has any problems, then I don't really see these making them that much worse. Like I said- most of them are kinda like a lower level version of Wish/Miracle.


    If you want to include something like this in your game for storytelling reasons, then I would strongly suggest you look at mechanics other than a spell. Spells have limitations on how much you can....limit them (I need better words) and once you give a player a spell it's really hard to take it away if things get out of control. The easiest alternative option is to make it a magic artifact of some kind that lets your convert spell-slots on the fly. Then you can include whatever kind of restriction(s) you need to make it balanced. For example, it might only be able to be used a limited number of times per day, or has charges and needs to be refilled from the blood of a virgin, or each time you use it it sucks up a month of your lifespan, etc etc etc. Feel free to mix and match any or all of the above.

    As another suggestion if you want this to be a kind of chain that someone acquires over time, you might be able to turn it into a class-feature for a PrC. Especially if the PrC doesn't provide a perfect 1-to-1 advancement for spellcasting, which makes it a much more significant investment. Done right, it could come across as the kind of thing where a caster trades raw power for versatility, and might appeal to a smart player.

    Let me know if either of those suggestions sound appealing and I can try to think of more details.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2017-10-13 at 01:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Let's put it another way:

    - If you somehow (spell-to-power erudite) got your hands on psionic omnipotence, it would cost 17 power points to manifest.
    - If you have fifth-level powers, which are often as good as fifth-level spells, they would cost 9 power points to manifest.
    - If your fifth-level power of choice takes a standard action to manifest and your manifester level is 17, then psionic omnipotence would save you 91,800 power points while costing you 17.
    - A 17th-level psion with INT 24 has 309 power points.
    - Therefore a single manifestation of psionic omnipotence saves you almost exactly 297 psions.

    Put more simply, your spells are still insanely powerful. Can you say "Tier zero" three times fast?
    Well, that would be a case where the DM should intercede. Sarrukh Pun-Pun and other game-breakers are technically possible by RAW, after all... I'm more concerned with if the spells are immediately and obviously exploitable (which admittedly does seem to be the case :D), rather than by particular builds.

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    I think we all agree that this is broken and no need to fix it more like ban it asap
    Aw!

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Meh, I think Greater prestidigitation is pretty decent... I mean you can spam the crappy 1d3 cantrips I guess... if course PF as unlimited... or create water... or light... In fact I would give certain classes like the beguiler/hexblade this as a spell like, the later though will quickly spiral into madness.

    I wouldn't compare spells to (limited) wish/miracle/shapechange as those are considered the most broken spells... unless that is what you are going for?
    I meant I used them as a guide for what level of spell could be mimicked as a once-of, then reduced that level to what I thought would be better for at-will. However the consensus does seem to be "broken" :D

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    This actually is a pretty good example of how quantity can become quality, I think. As you say, a 2nd-level spell effect is trivial for a character capable of 9ths. What about 20 2nd-level spells? That's how many casts it would take to ward a standard 4-man party against all 5 standard/common energy types with Resist Energy. Or 5 4th level spells, to achieve the same effect using Mass Resist Energy? Then multiply that by the number of times you would need to refresh it to achieve all-day or at least all-expected-combat-time coverage.

    And just staying in 2nd level spells, that gives you Glitterdust (AoE, non-mind-affecting Will save against Blinding never really stops being useful), See Invisibility, Invisibility, Shatter, Command Undead, Blur, Mirror Image, Levitate, and Spider Climb at will. Plus the more niche/less useful spells that may still be the perfect answer to a situation that you wouldn't normally bother with.. but now you can cast them spontaneously at-will.
    I kind of feel that a 6th-level slot is worth an arbitrary number of 2nd-level slots though... unlimited buffs are nice but they need forewarning/preparation for use, and any niche problem that can be overcome with a 2nd-level spell SHOULD be easy for an 11th+ level caster to solve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Ah ok- I've never watched "Buffy" but I certainly think it's good to take inspiration from many sources. Here's the thing to keep in mind though- some things are good for storytelling, and some things are good for gaming, and they don't always 100% overlap. In a story, the writer has full control over everything that happens, and they can include whatever flaws or backfires are necessary to keep their one-shot super-powerful magic items, or spells, or monsters, from completely breaking the universe. For example- how many times did Willow (or anyone else) use that spell? Did it ever come up again except for the episode where it was introduced? If not, why not?

    In a game though, the GM (i.e. the storyteller) doesn't have that level of control, and if you let the players get their hands on stuff that's OP, they will never give it up and they will spam it over and over again until the setting is reduced to a cloud of ashes. Sometimes, anyway.
    Now, admittedly there are already magic spells in 3.5 core that can break the gameworld like a dry twig. Normally I don't see that as an excuse to add more of them, and prefer to homebrew in the other direction, but if your group is used to dealing with that and no one has any problems, then I don't really see these making them that much worse. Like I said- most of them are kinda like a lower level version of Wish/Miracle.

    If you want to include something like this in your game for storytelling reasons, then I would strongly suggest you look at mechanics other than a spell. Spells have limitations on how much you can....limit them (I need better words) and once you give a player a spell it's really hard to take it away if things get out of control. The easiest alternative option is to make it a magic artifact of some kind that lets your convert spell-slots on the fly. Then you can include whatever kind of restriction(s) you need to make it balanced. For example, it might only be able to be used a limited number of times per day, or has charges and needs to be refilled from the blood of a virgin, or each time you use it it sucks up a month of your lifespan, etc etc etc. Feel free to mix and match any or all of the above.

    As another suggestion if you want this to be a kind of chain that someone acquires over time, you might be able to turn it into a class-feature for a PrC. Especially if the PrC doesn't provide a perfect 1-to-1 advancement for spellcasting, which makes it a much more significant investment. Done right, it could come across as the kind of thing where a caster trades raw power for versatility, and might appeal to a smart player.

    Let me know if either of those suggestions sound appealing and I can try to think of more details.
    Thanks for the very thoughtful and persuasive comment! I do like the idea of a class based around these effects (though the flavour would probably be more Divine than Arcane), but I'll try the following simple edits instead:

    Wizard-only: So your save DCs for your SLAs will be low (low Cha), and you don't get as huge an increase in versatility as a sorcerer would (since as wizard you know a bunch of low-level spells already).

    Only 2 spells : Greater Prestidigitation (for 1st-level spells), and Omnipotence (for 5th-level spells, still not as broken as time stop or shapechange, IMHO, but the levels are negotiable).
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-10-13 at 05:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I meant I used them as a guide for what level of spell could be mimicked as a once-of, then reduced that level to what I thought would be better for at-will. However the consensus does seem to be "broken" :D
    Well, anyspell mimics a lower level spell once and it is considered powerful by most... Which is why I love mystra by the deities and demigods rules, as she gets anyspell and greater anyspell at will... which leads to having most of the lower level sor/wiz spells at will... I like the flavor, and maybe this might work as a class utilizing them (could seem some interesting potential) but throwing this to the wizard is just adding to his arsenal.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Well, that would be a case where the DM should intercede. Sarrukh Pun-Pun and other game-breakers are technically possible by RAW, after all... I'm more concerned with if the spells are immediately and obviously exploitable (which admittedly does seem to be the case :D), rather than by particular builds.
    No, that's just for illustrative purposes of how powerful it is. The spell is still just as powerful as 297 psions no matter whether a wizard or a StP Erudite casts it.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    No, that's just for illustrative purposes of how powerful it is. The spell is still just as powerful as 297 psions no matter whether a wizard or a StP Erudite casts it.
    Ah I stupidly misinterpreted your comment. I actually don't have a problem with that then - the base version saves an arbitrary number of spell slots for arcane casters as it is, so that would just be more of the same. In any event with the new limits I think I've done a better job of balancing, though of course there's always room for improvement.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Ah I stupidly misinterpreted your comment. I actually don't have a problem with that then - the base version saves an arbitrary number of spell slots for arcane casters as it is, so that would just be more of the same. In any event with the new limits I think I've done a better job of balancing, though of course there's always room for improvement.
    To be clear, you are entirely fine with a single spell slot giving you the power which would be expected of hundreds of psions combined?
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Potence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Thanks for the very thoughtful and persuasive comment! I do like the idea of a class based around these effects (though the flavour would probably be more Divine than Arcane), but I'll try the following simple edits instead:

    Wizard-only: So your save DCs for your SLAs will be low (low Cha), and you don't get as huge an increase in versatility as a sorcerer would (since as wizard you know a bunch of low-level spells already).

    Only 2 spells : Greater Prestidigitation (for 1st-level spells), and Omnipotence (for 5th-level spells, still not as broken as time stop or shapechange, IMHO, but the levels are negotiable).
    Two additional thoughts- first another alternative way to tune this down a tad. Rather than giving the Wizard access to every spell ever printed, you could have it limited to any spell the Wizard has previously cast. That keeps non-wizard spells off the list (though you could still get them with Wish I think), plus it provides incentive for the wizard to seek out and test out additional new spells. It also limits the spell's scope if your wizard hasn't had the time or the resources to sit down and just conduct arcane research for a couple of weeks.
    A spell that gives you access to every spell ever printed anywhere just sounds OP to people, even if they don't know how badly unbalanced magic in 3.5 is.

    Second- I realize you've already changed your original post, but hopefully you might have a record of it somewhere. Something I've done from time to time is just spoiler the original idea at the bottom of my post and update the rest of it with the new version. This keeps things handy so I can refer back to them or late-comers to the thread can see where we're going. And sometimes a discussion will come full-circle, or someone else later suggests something that makes an originally OP/UP idea feasible again.
    Just something to consider.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Yes, I hope you ave a copy of some of them, especially the 0th level one as that sounds pretty cool... I mean want an epic thematic entrance without wasting all those spell slots setting everything up just so? Here ya go!
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    To be clear, you are entirely fine with a single spell slot giving you the power which would be expected of hundreds of psions combined?
    Yep! Especially since that power has the rate-limiting step of only being useable via spells of 1st/5th level or lower, now. I honestly think that with the current changes, only high-level wizards will risk sacrificing a 5th-level spell slot for greater prestidigitation and no wizard will actually use a 9th-level slot for omnipotence (except maybe as a 1/day use-activated item).

    Remember, although the spell might save you an arbitrarily high number of slots/power points over time it's not like you can nova all those resources into a single attack. You're still limited by your manifester level/higher-level spell slots - once you expend all your big guns you're limited to whatever tricks my spells can keep churning out for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Two additional thoughts- first another alternative way to tune this down a tad. Rather than giving the Wizard access to every spell ever printed, you could have it limited to any spell the Wizard has previously cast. That keeps non-wizard spells off the list (though you could still get them with Wish I think), plus it provides incentive for the wizard to seek out and test out additional new spells. It also limits the spell's scope if your wizard hasn't had the time or the resources to sit down and just conduct arcane research for a couple of weeks.
    A spell that gives you access to every spell ever printed anywhere just sounds OP to people, even if they don't know how badly unbalanced magic in 3.5 is.

    Second- I realize you've already changed your original post, but hopefully you might have a record of it somewhere. Something I've done from time to time is just spoiler the original idea at the bottom of my post and update the rest of it with the new version. This keeps things handy so I can refer back to them or late-comers to the thread can see where we're going. And sometimes a discussion will come full-circle, or someone else later suggests something that makes an originally OP/UP idea feasible again.
    Just something to consider.
    I don't think I'll impose additional restrictions, other than reducing the level of spells that omnipotence can mimic (4th-level arcane, 3rd-level others?). After a certain point, if a low-level spell is broken if useable at-will then it's simply broken period.

    As for the saved post:
    Spoiler
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    (Sorry, I deleted it without thinking! It could be reconstructed easily enough though, most of the spells were just links in a chain)

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Yes, I hope you ave a copy of some of them, especially the 0th level one as that sounds pretty cool... I mean want an epic thematic entrance without wasting all those spell slots setting everything up just so? Here ya go!
    The 0th-level one really was underpowered, the current greater prestidigitation should be more helpful.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Yep! Especially since that power has the rate-limiting step of only being useable via spells of 1st/5th level or lower, now. I honestly think that with the current changes, only high-level wizards will risk sacrificing a 5th-level spell slot for greater prestidigitation and no wizard will actually use a 9th-level slot for omnipotence (except maybe as a 1/day use-activated item).
    No, every wizard will use them because they are stupidly powerful still. I don't think I can impress this fact on you if you're willing to ignore the fact that it gives you the power and versatility of hundreds of characters of your level, though.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    The 0th-level one really was underpowered, the current greater prestidigitation should be more helpful.
    Eh, that's true, but I like it none the less (think that's an expression)
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    To really get an idea of how mind-bogglingly powerful these abilities are, compare them to a 1st party source that does something similar: the Innate Spell feat. You take this feat once for a specific spell, and in exchange for giving up a slot eight levels higher than the spell you chose, you can cast the chosen spell as an SLA once per round forever (paying component costs as normal for the most part). That's also not a metamagic feat, so metamagic reduction/replacement cost doesn't affect it. You have to spend a feat and an 8th or 9th lvl spell slot in order to get a 0th or 1st lvl spell at-will. And it's a specific spell, not just "any spell of that level".

    Compare "Omnipotence" to "Wish", the granddaddy of broken spells. Wish costs you 5000 XP, but lets you cast any single spell of 5th lvl or lower once. Omnipotence lets you cast any wizard spell of 5th lvl or lower (or any spell period of 4th lvl or lower) for every turn over the course of the next 17 hours. That's 10200 rounds where you don't have to spend slots on spells lower than 5th lvl.

    EDIT: The best suggestion I can make is to change these from spells to a bunch of worthwhile Reserve Feats. It'll still be upping the power of casters, but it'll at least be pretending things are fair.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2017-10-13 at 08:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    To really get an idea of how mind-bogglingly powerful these abilities are, compare them to a 1st party source that does something similar: the Innate Spell feat. You take this feat once for a specific spell, and in exchange for giving up a slot eight levels higher than the spell you chose, you can cast the chosen spell as an SLA once per round forever (paying component costs as normal for the most part). That's also not a metamagic feat, so metamagic reduction/replacement cost doesn't affect it. You have to spend a feat and an 8th or 9th lvl spell slot in order to get a 0th or 1st lvl spell at-will. And it's a specific spell, not just "any spell of that level".

    Compare "Omnipotence" to "Wish", the granddaddy of broken spells. Wish costs you 5000 XP, but lets you cast any single spell of 5th lvl or lower once. Omnipotence lets you cast any wizard spell of 5th lvl or lower (or any spell period of 4th lvl or lower) for every turn over the course of the next 17 hours. That's 10200 rounds where you don't have to spend slots on spells lower than 5th lvl.

    EDIT: The best suggestion I can make is to change these from spells to a bunch of worthwhile Reserve Feats. It'll still be upping the power of casters, but it'll at least be pretending things are fair.
    Hmm, since these are personal can't you persist+extend them? :P
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Hmm, since these are personal can't you persist+extend them? :P
    Extend can be put on most anything, and would be incredibly useful for these spells. Using a Major Rod Of Extend Spell on Omnipotence to cast unlimited 5th lvl wizard spells for the next 34 (or more) hours is useful. Ultimately, though, while you can technically Persist these spells, it doesn't actually do much for you. If you managed to reduce Persistent Spell down to +4 and slapped it on Greater Prestidigitation for a 9th lvl slot, GP would last 24 hours instead 17, which is technically an improvement but not really by much. Persistent is at its best when applies to a spell that lasts rounds/level or minutes/level, where it's an absolutely ridiculous increase in duration. But past CL 12, Extend does more for you here than Persist does, and is way cheaper.
    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    You divide your games into winning and losing. Winning is building a PC so powerful that the DMís plans take a backseat to your quest to become the untouchable God-Emperor of the world, anything else is losing. Any attempt by the DM/system to prevent that outcome is seen as a violation of your civil rights. By your own admission you canít play characters as anything beyond "CN Mercenary who only cares about self advancement at any cost".

    I am stunned you can't find a group.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    No, every wizard will use them because they are stupidly powerful still. I don't think I can impress this fact on you if you're willing to ignore the fact that it gives you the power and versatility of hundreds of characters of your level, though.
    Right, could you cite some examples of spells that could be abused this way, preferably sticking to Core? The current greater prestidigitation seems quite balanced IMHO, and omnipotence is surely no more broken than shapechange. The only thing I can think of is using it to spam baleful polymorph and similar debuffs against the commoners of a town (since any level-appropriate characters will easily resist your low-Cha SLAs).

    If it helps, think of a wizard with a ring of wizardry (I). He already has loads of 1st-level spell slots, there's not really a practical difference between that and greater prestidigitation.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    To really get an idea of how mind-bogglingly powerful these abilities are, compare them to a 1st party source that does something similar: the Innate Spell feat. You take this feat once for a specific spell, and in exchange for giving up a slot eight levels higher than the spell you chose, you can cast the chosen spell as an SLA once per round forever (paying component costs as normal for the most part). That's also not a metamagic feat, so metamagic reduction/replacement cost doesn't affect it. You have to spend a feat and an 8th or 9th lvl spell slot in order to get a 0th or 1st lvl spell at-will. And it's a specific spell, not just "any spell of that level".
    I don't think that's a good balance point - the effects of a feat that could be duplicated by a 8,000 gp item? (1st level spell x caster level 1 x 2,000 gp x4 for a spell with duration in rounds/level). Seems rather underpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Compare "Omnipotence" to "Wish", the granddaddy of broken spells. Wish costs you 5000 XP, but lets you cast any single spell of 5th lvl or lower once. Omnipotence lets you cast any wizard spell of 5th lvl or lower (or any spell period of 4th lvl or lower) for every turn over the course of the next 17 hours. That's 10200 rounds where you don't have to spend slots on spells lower than 5th lvl.

    EDIT: The best suggestion I can make is to change these from spells to a bunch of worthwhile Reserve Feats. It'll still be upping the power of casters, but it'll at least be pretending things are fair.
    For a generalist wizard, wish can cast any wizard spell of 8th level or lower, and any other spell of 6th level or lower. An actual 9th-level combat spell is far more useful than omnipotence on an encounter day, and on a day spent at home omnipotence doesn't do anything you couldn't do with your preponderance of low-level spell slots already.

    I like the Reserve Feat idea, and the aforementioned prestige class concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Extend can be put on most anything, and would be incredibly useful for these spells. Using a Major Rod Of Extend Spell on Omnipotence to cast unlimited 5th lvl wizard spells for the next 34 (or more) hours is useful. Ultimately, though, while you can technically Persist these spells, it doesn't actually do much for you. If you managed to reduce Persistent Spell down to +4 and slapped it on Greater Prestidigitation for a 9th lvl slot, GP would last 24 hours instead 17, which is technically an improvement but not really by much. Persistent is at its best when applies to a spell that lasts rounds/level or minutes/level, where it's an absolutely ridiculous increase in duration. But past CL 12, Extend does more for you here than Persist does, and is way cheaper.
    Yes, I don't see much benefit to Extending/Persisting the spells - they already have a lengthy duration, and the SLAs you use have to be refreshed manually anyways as they can't be prolonged.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-10-13 at 11:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    I like the idea but still think its a little too much. I like the long duration and be able to use your lesser spell at-will just that it should be cap at spell of level 3 maximum. But at the same time what I would change to make it more useful in combat and less a Buffing Spell.

    Reduce Casting time to 1 Full Round.
    Decrease Duration to 1 round per level
    You can only cast spell from a Spellbook you have in hand and have decipher (like with Read Magic)

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