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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xzoltar View Post
    I like the idea but still think its a little too much. I like the long duration and be able to use your lesser spell at-will just that it should be cap at spell of level 3 maximum. But at the same time what I would change to make it more useful in combat and less a Buffing Spell.

    Reduce Casting time to 1 Full Round.
    Decrease Duration to 1 round per level
    You can only cast spell from a Spellbook you have in hand and have decipher (like with Read Magic)
    The trouble with increasing the spell levels it duplicates (even if you shorten the duration) is that it starts to compete with anyspell, wish, mnemonic enhancer, etc. I intended it more as a utility spell for when you're out of combat.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I don't think I'll impose additional restrictions, other than reducing the level of spells that omnipotence can mimic (4th-level arcane, 3rd-level others?). After a certain point, if a low-level spell is broken if useable at-will then it's simply broken period.
    It was more of an alternative, not "in addition to", if you didn't want to mess with the other parts of the spell as much.

    You CAN put multiple restrictions on things, but generally that gets very complicated very fast (*cough*Binder*unconvincing-cough*). I prefer to find one that works well and just stick with that, if possible. Sometimes though people think different things are imbalanced in different ways, and so they prefer different options for how a spell or ability or whatever is designed, even if the net effect is basically the same.

    It was just an idea, I figured I'd throw it out there and see if you liked it.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    I didnt want your spell to let you cast higher level spell than what you already add write up. Just that you can only cast spell contain in your spellbook up to the maximum spell level allowed by the version or Omnipotence you cast.

    Another alternative (similar to Mental Pinacle) :

    Minor Omnipotence (Wiz 5) : Each round for 1 round per Caster level you can cast one spell from a Spellbok you have in hand as a Standard action. You can cast a total of Twice your Caster level in Spell level before this spell is over. None of the spell you cast can be more than level 1. If a spell have an XP cost or an expensive Material Components, you must provide them normally.

    Least Omnipotence (Wiz 6) : Spell of level 2 or less
    Lesser Omnipotence (Wiz 7) : Spell of level 3 or less
    Greater Omnipotence (Wiz 8) : Spell of level 4 or less
    Omnipotence (Wiz 9) : Spell of level 5 or less

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    I'm just going to note that both psionics and the spell point variant rules require you to pay more to scale a power's damage, because otherwise it becomes most efficient to keep spamming lower level powers that scale well. As written, letting out 5 magic missiles a turn when you first get greater presto makes reserve feats and warlocks go feel useless.

    And then even if you severely gimp the power of secondary spells cast from greater presto, like dropping them to 1, you still have handy first level spells that are useful no matter what. Most notably including short duration, high powered buffs. If I'm in a dungeon, no reason not to keep re-upping Shield and Expeditious Retreat whenever they're about to run out.

    And then there's the fact that the hypothetical batman wizard's greatest ability is being able to have whatever effects are needed at hand whenever he needs them. At least in mid-op play, the wizard can be stymied by not giving him enough time to rest and pick a new spell loadout for every new problem. These spells give that sort of flexibility just by nature of what they do.

    I get the desire for stronger, more flexible, higher level versions of prestidigitation so your magic man has lots of cool tricks on hand for whatever problem he faces. But the whole conceit of vancian magic is that spells are intrinsically powerful but single-use abilities that have to be carefully shepherded. If you want more flexibility than that, play a nonvancian caster. Don't try to break the one that exists by bolting on a whole new set of power.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    I'm just going to note that both psionics and the spell point variant rules require you to pay more to scale a power's damage, because otherwise it becomes most efficient to keep spamming lower level powers that scale well. As written, letting out 5 magic missiles a turn when you first get greater presto makes reserve feats and warlocks go feel useless.

    And then even if you severely gimp the power of secondary spells cast from greater presto, like dropping them to 1, you still have handy first level spells that are useful no matter what. Most notably including short duration, high powered buffs. If I'm in a dungeon, no reason not to keep re-upping Shield and Expeditious Retreat whenever they're about to run out.

    And then there's the fact that the hypothetical batman wizard's greatest ability is being able to have whatever effects are needed at hand whenever he needs them. At least in mid-op play, the wizard can be stymied by not giving him enough time to rest and pick a new spell loadout for every new problem. These spells give that sort of flexibility just by nature of what they do.

    I get the desire for stronger, more flexible, higher level versions of prestidigitation so your magic man has lots of cool tricks on hand for whatever problem he faces. But the whole conceit of vancian magic is that spells are intrinsically powerful but single-use abilities that have to be carefully shepherded. If you want more flexibility than that, play a nonvancian caster. Don't try to break the one that exists by bolting on a whole new set of power.
    But reserve feats and warlocks ARE useless... /s

    I get your point, but when you first get 5th-level spells you aren't going to waste one of them on the ability to spam magic missile/shield - your actions will be better spent casting your higher-level spells. Unlimited magic missiles may help when you've run out of better things to do (i.e. anything else except fleeing) - but if you end an encounter with a 5th-level combat spell you don't need to resort to pinging a foe to death.

    When comparing the benefits of dominate person, lesser planar binding, or magic jar to what greater prestidigitation can do, I don't think it's broken.

    (Guilty as charged with the non-Vancian thing though! You've got me pegged :D)

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    It was more of an alternative, not "in addition to", if you didn't want to mess with the other parts of the spell as much.

    You CAN put multiple restrictions on things, but generally that gets very complicated very fast (*cough*Binder*unconvincing-cough*). I prefer to find one that works well and just stick with that, if possible. Sometimes though people think different things are imbalanced in different ways, and so they prefer different options for how a spell or ability or whatever is designed, even if the net effect is basically the same.

    It was just an idea, I figured I'd throw it out there and see if you liked it.
    Yes sorry, I gathered that. I just meant I don't want to tamper with these spells much more, beyond the levels of spells they can duplicate. Your comments are appreciated!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xzoltar View Post
    I didnt want your spell to let you cast higher level spell than what you already add write up. Just that you can only cast spell contain in your spellbook up to the maximum spell level allowed by the version or Omnipotence you cast.

    Another alternative (similar to Mental Pinacle) :

    Minor Omnipotence (Wiz 5) : Each round for 1 round per Caster level you can cast one spell from a Spellbok you have in hand as a Standard action. You can cast a total of Twice your Caster level in Spell level before this spell is over. None of the spell you cast can be more than level 1. If a spell have an XP cost or an expensive Material Components, you must provide them normally.

    Least Omnipotence (Wiz 6) : Spell of level 2 or less
    Lesser Omnipotence (Wiz 7) : Spell of level 3 or less
    Greater Omnipotence (Wiz 8) : Spell of level 4 or less
    Omnipotence (Wiz 9) : Spell of level 5 or less
    Ah I see! I think that'd probably fit more with the genera consensus here, you should brew up full versions! :)

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Another way to balance the spells could be to reduced the effective Caster level of thoses spells by Half.

    With all the suggestion here, im pretty sure someone can Brew a version suitable for their game (if they like the concept of the spell)

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Right, could you cite some examples of spells that could be abused this way, preferably sticking to Core? The current greater prestidigitation seems quite balanced IMHO, and omnipotence is surely no more broken than shapechange. The only thing I can think of is using it to spam baleful polymorph and similar debuffs against the commoners of a town (since any level-appropriate characters will easily resist your low-Cha SLAs).

    If it helps, think of a wizard with a ring of wizardry (I). He already has loads of 1st-level spell slots, there's not really a practical difference between that and greater prestidigitation.
    Apart from the mount spam thing, other first-level spells which are crazy to have at will but less so with "There's a limit, but it's 12 instead of 6" include charm person (Oh this entire town likes me) and with 5th-level spells at will, come the game-breakers. For a start, polymorph at will is basically shapechange anyway. Second, at-will Dominate Person. Third, at-will item creation spells like Wall of Stone. Fourth, all the useful cleric, druid, paladin and ranger spells which wizards aren't meant to be able to access in the first fricking place. Hells, you can throw divine power on yourself if you really like. This is just ridiculous levels of broken for anything other than the style of play where everything is combat, combat combat and you throw spells at people until they die.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    If it helps, think of a wizard with a ring of wizardry (I). He already has loads of 1st-level spell slots, there's not really a practical difference between that and greater prestidigitation.
    There's a world of difference. For starters, the slots gained from a Ring Of Wizardry have to be prepared as normal, rather than giving you the ability to spontaneously cast any first level wizard spell in existence, whether you know it or not, whether it's from a forbidden school or not. Secondly, the Rings Of Wizardry only increase your slots per day at a particular level by the number you already have before bonus slots, so for a Wizard the most benefit they'll ever get out of it is 4. Greater Prestidigitation, when you get it, lasts for 9 hours. Are you seriously suggesting that you think somebody's going to cast Greater Prestidigitation and then proceed to only cast four spells with it over the course of 9 hours? Get the **** out of here with that bull****, we both know that's a total load.

    I don't think that's a good balance point - the effects of a feat that could be duplicated by a 8,000 gp item? (1st level spell x caster level 1 x 2,000 gp x4 for a spell with duration in rounds/level). Seems rather underpowered.
    Once again, you're not making a fair comparison. Let's look at a few different ways to determine the cost necessary to gain this effect:

    DMG: Magic Item Creation

    The SLA that "Innate Spell" isn't at the minimum caster level necessary to cast it. Firstly, casting a 1st lvl spell at-will would require a 9th lvl slot, so your CL is at bare minimum 17; secondly, the duration multiplier is for continuous spell effects, not at-will spell effects, so it shouldn't be added here; thirdly, an item takes up a slot where a feat does not, so we should make the item slotless to really duplicate the effect. All of this put together puts the final cost for an item equivalent to that feat at 68000 gp for an at-will 1st lvl spell at your full CL.

    Arms & Equipment Guide: Feats From Items

    The general guidelines for creating an item that gives the effect of a feat is "10000 gp, +5000 gp per pre-req". Additionally, as before, we want to make it slotless, so we'll be doubling the final result. Innate Spell has three pre-reqs, so the total should be (2*[10000+{3*5000}]) 50000 gp, which is in the same ballpark as the number we got above.

    And I just wanna reclarify: that 50000 or 68000 is to duplicate the effects of Innate Spell, not Greater Prestidigitation. To duplicate the effects of Greater Prestidigitation, let's use the first method but bring the CL down to 9 to make things cheaper, so now you only need to pay 36000 to get a single particular 1st lvl wizard spell at-will. To fully duplicate GP, we'll need that for every wizard spell in existence. According to a spell search engine I found, there's 177 of those, but since even limiting things to 3.5 leaves a lot of visible duplicates, let's assume there's only 100 unique ones. That brings the final cost of a slotless item duplicating Greater Prestidigitation to a staggering 3.6 million gp. Considering that getting a continuous item of a 5th lvl spell lasting hours/level should normally cost 90000 gp, it should show you just how overpowered your spell is in comparison.

    Maybe buying the slots direct would be cheaper? Since Greater Prestidigitation gives you up to 5400 extra 1st lvl slots, let's see what it would cost to just buy 5400 1st lvl slots in Pearls Of Power. A lvl 1 Pearl Of Power only costs 1000 gp, so 5400 of them would would be 5.4 million...which is even worse, guess that didn't solve anything!

    For a generalist wizard, wish can cast any wizard spell of 8th level or lower, and any other spell of 6th level or lower. An actual 9th-level combat spell is far more useful than omnipotence on an encounter day, and on a day spent at home omnipotence doesn't do anything you couldn't do with your preponderance of low-level spell slots already.
    Once. Wish gets any spell 8th lvl or lower once. And it costs 5000 XP at the bare minimum. Omnipotence costs no XP, and gives you up to 10000 lvl 5 or lower spells. Why are you pretending these spells are even remotely equivalent?

    Yes, I don't see much benefit to Extending/Persisting the spells - they already have a lengthy duration, and the SLAs you use have to be refreshed manually anyways as they can't be prolonged.
    They're not talking about Persisting/Extending the spells you cast via GP/O, they're talking about Extending/Persisting GP/O themselves. Persisting would be pointless due to how long they last, but Extending these already long-duration spells just makes them even worse.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    First off, I want to say that I do appreciate the comments from everyone, and to note that for these spells I look at things from a "practical" viewpoint rather than a "RAW" viewpoint e.g. "although by RAW you can cast wall of iron + fabricate to make yourself rich, practically speaking the DM will rule that the market becomes inflated to the point of making that trick worthless or somesuch". These spells don't exist in a vacuum - if a player uses them to run wild then they should be countered in-game and/or talked to out of game.

    A few logical premises:

    1) Anything requiring a save will be useless in combat (due to the abysmal save DC from your wizardly Charisma), and outside of combat the effects are very much open to DM interpretation. Having a town completely charmed doesn't mean you have them dominated - they like you but they're not going to build you a pyramid of somesuch just because you tell them to. :D

    2) Anything that affects the economy can be countered as described above for wall of iron/fabricate.

    3) Anything that can be abused through multiple castings is already subject to abuse, my spells are irrelevant. Assuming for example that the wall of iron trick worked, yes you could generate X of them in a day. However, you could also tell the DM - "in the absence of omnipotence, I spend an arbitrary time in town without adventuring, using all my 6th+ level spell slots casting wall of iron". There's no practical difference between 1 day and X years for a PC, you'll still get filthy rich, just at different rates (and in fact, you can do the wall of iron trick starting from 11th level, whereas you have to be 17th for omnipotence).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Apart from the mount spam thing, other first-level spells which are crazy to have at will but less so with "There's a limit, but it's 12 instead of 6" include charm person (Oh this entire town likes me) and with 5th-level spells at will, come the game-breakers. For a start, polymorph at will is basically shapechange anyway. Second, at-will Dominate Person. Third, at-will item creation spells like Wall of Stone. Fourth, all the useful cleric, druid, paladin and ranger spells which wizards aren't meant to be able to access in the first fricking place. Hells, you can throw divine power on yourself if you really like. This is just ridiculous levels of broken for anything other than the style of play where everything is combat, combat combat and you throw spells at people until they die.
    Mount spam - as discussed in an earlier comment they shouldn't be used for combat (compare a CR 1 horse available for 2+hours to the CR <1 creatures from summon monster only available for rounds/level). If you're trying to break the economy, a wizard who tries to sell even 1 mount should be smacked down HARD (with or without greater prestidigitation; 2e fool's gold, anyone? :D). Finally, if you're transporting your party you're better off using the 5th-level slot on teleport, and if you're transporting an army a) you first need an army that somehow doesn't have its own horses and b) ...I actually think that would a cool and flavourful way of using the spell. :D

    Charm person - see 1). Charm person (and charm monster) shouldn't be a license for a PC to create brainwashed slaves. That's dominate's job :D

    Polymorph- this is definitely not shapechange, and especially not at 17th level. Negating your high-level hoard of magic items isn't worth it if you can't get those precious supernatural abilities to replace them.

    Dominate person - a level-appropriate character will make their save in combat (and beat you up since you just wasted your action), a level-inappropriate commoner will be a flavour benefit. Compare what dominate monster can get you for a 9th-level slot (one CR 17 dominated monster>>> infinite number of low-CR minions). HOWEVER, I will say that this is the spell making me think about dropping omnipotence down to mimicking 4th-level arcane spells, just in case. See also feeblemind, which has a level-appropriate DC against arcanes.

    Wall of stone/creation spells - see wall of iron. However, wall of force could actually be useful in combat, come to think of it.

    Non-arcane spells - these effects are all accessible (practically if not explicitly) to a high-level character (limited wish/wish, shapechange into a leonal for healing, buy a potion of the spells you want, etc.). You make another good point about divine power though - technically transformation exists, and technically it's really only useful to gishes, but even so...

    Ultimately, I think this spell is balanced for combat, and I understand your concerns about non-combat applications but I still think it's pretty safe. I'll reduce omnipotence down to 4th arcane/3rd divine though, in light of dominate person, feeblemind, wall of force, divine power, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    There's a world of difference. For starters, the slots gained from a Ring Of Wizardry have to be prepared as normal, rather than giving you the ability to spontaneously cast any first level wizard spell in existence, whether you know it or not, whether it's from a forbidden school or not. Secondly, the Rings Of Wizardry only increase your slots per day at a particular level by the number you already have before bonus slots, so for a Wizard the most benefit they'll ever get out of it is 4. Greater Prestidigitation, when you get it, lasts for 9 hours. Are you seriously suggesting that you think somebody's going to cast Greater Prestidigitation and then proceed to only cast four spells with it over the course of 9 hours? Get the **** out of here with that bull****, we both know that's a total load.
    It was a very rough comparison - given that the average adventuring day only has a few encounters anyways, I meant that you could get a similar practical benefit from a ring as you would from the spell. The spell is definitely better as you say, it was a poor analogy on my part (also, I apologise if my tone has been aggressive, I definitely never intend to come across as confrontational online).

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Once again, you're not making a fair comparison. Let's look at a few different ways to determine the cost necessary to gain this effect:

    DMG: Magic Item Creation

    The SLA that "Innate Spell" isn't at the minimum caster level necessary to cast it. Firstly, casting a 1st lvl spell at-will would require a 9th lvl slot, so your CL is at bare minimum 17; secondly, the duration multiplier is for continuous spell effects, not at-will spell effects, so it shouldn't be added here; thirdly, an item takes up a slot where a feat does not, so we should make the item slotless to really duplicate the effect. All of this put together puts the final cost for an item equivalent to that feat at 68000 gp for an at-will 1st lvl spell at your full CL.

    Arms & Equipment Guide: Feats From Items

    The general guidelines for creating an item that gives the effect of a feat is "10000 gp, +5000 gp per pre-req". Additionally, as before, we want to make it slotless, so we'll be doubling the final result. Innate Spell has three pre-reqs, so the total should be (2*[10000+{3*5000}]) 50000 gp, which is in the same ballpark as the number we got above.

    And I just wanna reclarify: that 50000 or 68000 is to duplicate the effects of Innate Spell, not Greater Prestidigitation. To duplicate the effects of Greater Prestidigitation, let's use the first method but bring the CL down to 9 to make things cheaper, so now you only need to pay 36000 to get a single particular 1st lvl wizard spell at-will. To fully duplicate GP, we'll need that for every wizard spell in existence. According to a spell search engine I found, there's 177 of those, but since even limiting things to 3.5 leaves a lot of visible duplicates, let's assume there's only 100 unique ones. That brings the final cost of a slotless item duplicating Greater Prestidigitation to a staggering 3.6 million gp. Considering that getting a continuous item of a 5th lvl spell lasting hours/level should normally cost 90000 gp, it should show you just how overpowered your spell is in comparison.

    Maybe buying the slots direct would be cheaper? Since Greater Prestidigitation gives you up to 5400 extra 1st lvl slots, let's see what it would cost to just buy 5400 1st lvl slots in Pearls Of Power. A lvl 1 Pearl Of Power only costs 1000 gp, so 5400 of them would would be 5.4 million...which is even worse, guess that didn't solve anything!
    I maintain that Innate Spell is too weak to use as a baseline.

    You make a good point about caster level, but the highest caster level for a 1st level spell where that matters is magic missile (5 missiles at 9th level). Plus the caster level determines how easy it is to dispel the effect I guess, but for a use-activated item you can just re-cast the spell.

    So, worst case scenario (magic missile): 1st level spell x 9th caster level x 2,000 gp = 18,000 gp magic item (36,000 gp) to duplicate a feat that has multiple prerequisites and would require you to sacrifice a 9th-level spell slot (!).

    Can you give me an example of a spell that you would consider taking Innate Spell for, and that you wouldn't be better off using a magic item?

    As for a magic item duplicating greater prestidigitation, there's no need to do the math as I agree it would be too powerful by the standard calculations. As with a ring of invisibility or circlet of persuasion, it's a case where the DM should determine the final cost as they see fit - for example, how would the gp/XP costs of duplicated spells be handled? Probably something best left to the Tippyverse, as with resetting traps of heal etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Once. Wish gets any spell 8th lvl or lower once. And it costs 5000 XP at the bare minimum. Omnipotence costs no XP, and gives you up to 10000 lvl 5 or lower spells. Why are you pretending these spells are even remotely equivalent?

    They're not talking about Persisting/Extending the spells you cast via GP/O, they're talking about Extending/Persisting GP/O themselves. Persisting would be pointless due to how long they last, but Extending these already long-duration spells just makes them even worse.
    It's a trade-off -wish gets you a single high-power spell once, omnipotence gets you multiple low-power spells many times. Wish will be the one to win the day in the short term (combat), vice versa for omnipotence... though to be honest wish is so open-ended it could probably beat omnipotence in the long term too.

    Ah I guess I don't see the point of Extending it either - even greater prestidigitation lasts 9 hours minimum already.

    Thanks again for the debate guys, I've knocked omnipotence down to 4th/3rd.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    First off, I want to say that I do appreciate the comments from everyone, and to note that for these spells I look at things from a "practical" viewpoint rather than a "RAW" viewpoint e.g. "although by RAW you can cast wall of iron + fabricate to make yourself rich, practically speaking the DM will rule that the market becomes inflated to the point of making that trick worthless or somesuch". These spells don't exist in a vacuum - if a player uses them to run wild then they should be countered in-game and/or talked to out of game.
    Easy one, the iron is unfit for reforging refining, poor steel eta eta
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Easy one, the iron is unfit for reforging refining, poor steel eta eta
    Ha, I hadn't heard that fix before. Very clever!

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Ha, I hadn't heard that fix before. Very clever!
    Oh, just wait till their hometown gets destroyed due to faulty equipment... Hopefully they weren't also supplying the royal army as well
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    You say that a Wizard is going to have poor Charisma.

    There are a couple reasons that's wrong:

    Eagle's Splendor-Bam, free +2 to your save DCs. It just costs a second level slot, which you have infinite of.

    SADness-Wizards are pretty much the DEFINITION of a SAD class, so they have points to spend on Charisma.

    Now, I'd agree that your average Wizard, built without these spells in mind, will probably not have a great Charisma. But if these spells are on the table, you bet your ass they'll build with them in mind.

    Edit: Perhaps have the spells work like so?

    Each one, when cast, gives a pool of Spell Points, equal to 5*Caster Level (max 50 for the first and 100 for the second). You can cast spells using these points, with a 1st level costing 1, 3rd costing 3, etc., following the limits of max spell level from the spells cast.

    Still gives you a LOT (at 20th level, that's 100 1st level spells from one 9th) but not unlimited.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Oh, just wait till their hometown gets destroyed due to faulty equipment... Hopefully they weren't also supplying the royal army as well
    "Ah yes, your plan to outfit the royal army failed because of a clause that doesn't exist in the spell you were using. I, the Dee Emm and master of the universe, am so terribly clever."

    If you're going to change what the players' spells do, you should at least tell them that you're being a colossal butt before they try to use the spell to do a thing that it would normally be able to do but you've fiated they can't.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I maintain that Innate Spell is too weak to use as a baseline.

    You make a good point about caster level, but the highest caster level for a 1st level spell where that matters is magic missile (5 missiles at 9th level). Plus the caster level determines how easy it is to dispel the effect I guess, but for a use-activated item you can just re-cast the spell.So, worst case scenario (magic missile): 1st level spell x 9th caster level x 2,000 gp = 18,000 gp magic item (36,000 gp) to duplicate a feat that has multiple prerequisites and would require you to sacrifice a 9th-level spell slot (!).

    Can you give me an example of a spell that you would consider taking Innate Spell for, and that you wouldn't be better off using a magic item?
    Firstly, you're ignoring how high CL affects duration, range, and in some cases area with no CL cap. But generally yeah, the effect part of the spell stops scaling past 9.

    Secondly, you're ignoring the reason I was bringing up Innate Spell in the first place: it has high costs (a 9th lvl spell slot and a feat) and grants you the ability to use a single pre-chosen 1st lvl spell at-will at your CL. Compare this with Greater Prestidigitation, which lets you cast any 1st lvl wizard spell every round. The point of the magic item comparison post was "how much would a magic item cost that did the same thing this spell does", since gold piece cost is a very good way to quantify something to show how powerful it is. Greater Prestidigitation is, in effect, 5400 bonus 1st lvl slots. Pearl Of Power I gives one for 1000 gp, so duplicating the effects of your spell would cost 5.4 million. Duplicating the effects of a 5th lvl spell shouldn't cost more than the entire wealth of a seven-member 20th lvl party.

    The point of making the comparison is getting you to see that X is an acceptable amount of money for an ability of this level to cost, and 5.4 million is way ****ing bigger than X. Since the GP analysis isn't working, let's jump over to the spell points system presented in Unearthed Arcana. The basic gist of it is that a spell of level X costs (2X-1) spell points. So a 5th lvl spell would cost 9 spell points, a 6th lvl spell would cost 11...you get the picture. So let's say I'm operating in this system as a Wizard. On the one hand, I could spend 9 spell points casting 9 1st lvl spells, or 3 2nd lvl spells, or one each of 1st/2nd/3rd lvl...lots of options, you get the idea. On the other hand, I could cast Greater Prestidigitation, and get 9 hours (5400 rounds) of casting 1st lvl spells for free (as SLAs, but still), effectively spending 9 spell points to get 5400 I can only spend on 1st lvl spells.

    Omnipotence is worse, just because the minimum CL to cast it is higher, so it lasts much much longer; giving more powerful spells doesn't help either. Now, instead of spending 9 spell points to get 5400, I'm spending 17 spell points to get (as of the changes you've made to max out at 4th lvl wizard spells) up to 71400 points for free. 4th lvl list is full of stuff that could be potentially helpful in a wizard fight depending on op level; maybe the enemy can't grapple well, so I'll cover the field in Black Tentacles (grapple bonus scales with CL, no cap), or maybe it's higher-op and the most useful thing I can use Omnipotence for is spamming Scrying to learn everything about my opponent to try and outmaneuver their defenses, or maybe it's mid-op and I can win by just spamming Enervation until my opponent can't even try to fight anymore. Of course, with these spells, I don't have to pick and choose, I can just spam 4th lvl and lower spells basically all day to my heart's content and it doesn't matter.

    If I was going to suggest any change to these spells to make them more balanced, it wouldn't be to lower the level of the spells it can duplicate, but would be to shorten the duration. If the duration of both these spells was set to 1 round/level, you could probably have them max out at 2nd and 5th respectively with what they can duplicate, and it wouldn't be that bad. Sure, 9 rounds of 2nd lvl spells is still spending 9 spell points to get 27, but it's not spending 9 to get 5400. It makes these spells a bit more viable in the short-term as combat spell engines, and still lets them be useful for spamming utility without giving you so much extra utility that you basically make nonmagical utility completely pointless.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Since you're so insistent that this is a fair and balanced spell, I'll tell you what.

    If you're a DM, let your players have this spell. You'll see for yourself how this affects both encounter level and plot level balance.

    If you're a player trying to get a bat utility belt for his favorite character - and everything here sounds like you see yourself as more of a player than a DM - feel free to write it on your character sheet. Just understand that if there's overwhelming consensus in this thread, odds of a DM cheerfully accepting this new spell are slim.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    "Ah yes, your plan to outfit the royal army failed because of a clause that doesn't exist in the spell you were using. I, the Dee Emm and master of the universe, am so terribly clever."

    If you're going to change what the players' spells do, you should at least tell them that you're being a colossal butt before they try to use the spell to do a thing that it would normally be able to do but you've fiated they can't.
    Well, presumably if you use that fix it'll come up way earlier - like people will realise their Craft checks with the iron are failing, or the people you try to sell it to will refuse because there's a DC 1 Appraise check to tell it's poor quality. It's a nice fix because unlike the "saturating the iron market" fix for wall of iron/fabricate, the PCs can't make money even in the short term.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Firstly, you're ignoring how high CL affects duration, range, and in some cases area with no CL cap. But generally yeah, the effect part of the spell stops scaling past 9.
    I haven't explained myself well. I'm not ignoring all those factors, I'm just pointing out they're generally trivial when it comes to 1st-level spell effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Secondly, you're ignoring the reason I was bringing up Innate Spell in the first place: it has high costs (a 9th lvl spell slot and a feat) and grants you the ability to use a single pre-chosen 1st lvl spell at-will at your CL. Compare this with Greater Prestidigitation, which lets you cast any 1st lvl wizard spell every round. The point of the magic item comparison post was "how much would a magic item cost that did the same thing this spell does", since gold piece cost is a very good way to quantify something to show how powerful it is. Greater Prestidigitation is, in effect, 5400 bonus 1st lvl slots. Pearl Of Power I gives one for 1000 gp, so duplicating the effects of your spell would cost 5.4 million. Duplicating the effects of a 5th lvl spell shouldn't cost more than the entire wealth of a seven-member 20th lvl party.
    I presented the spells, you presented Innate spell as evidence that since they were more powerful than the feat they were broken. I'm responding by saying that Innate spell is way too weak to use as a baseline comparison (as evidenced by the fact that relatively cheap magic items can give you almost all of its benefits at a fraction of the investment). Now, this is not to say that the spells are 100% balanced, just that there's no point in using Innate Spell as a comparison.

    To reiterate, say that I wanted to take Innate Spell. What spell* would you recommend that I take, to make up for having to sacrifice a 9th-level spell slot and invest 4 feats total (2 of which are mediocre metamagic i.e. Silent/Still Spell)? If there's no spell that I wouldn't be wiser using an item to duplicate, then Innate Spell can safely be removed from consideration.
    *Er, preferably Core/non-3rd party still, I've no doubt there's some cantrip lurking in a sourcebook somewhere that turns you into a god if you cast it 100 times :D

    And as I've already said for the gp cost of a greater prestidigitation item, some spell effects break the magic item system. A ring of invisibility should only cost 6,000 gp, a continuous-use item of true strike should only cost 2,000 gp, yet the ring costs 20,000 and no DM would ever allow the true strike item. I have no problem saying greater prestidigitation is too powerful to be a standard item effect, but that doesn't mean that it should be banned any more than invisibility and true strike should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    The point of making the comparison is getting you to see that X is an acceptable amount of money for an ability of this level to cost, and 5.4 million is way ****ing bigger than X. Since the GP analysis isn't working, let's jump over to the spell points system presented in Unearthed Arcana. The basic gist of it is that a spell of level X costs (2X-1) spell points. So a 5th lvl spell would cost 9 spell points, a 6th lvl spell would cost 11...you get the picture. So let's say I'm operating in this system as a Wizard. On the one hand, I could spend 9 spell points casting 9 1st lvl spells, or 3 2nd lvl spells, or one each of 1st/2nd/3rd lvl...lots of options, you get the idea. On the other hand, I could cast Greater Prestidigitation, and get 9 hours (5400 rounds) of casting 1st lvl spells for free (as SLAs, but still), effectively spending 9 spell points to get 5400 I can only spend on 1st lvl spells.

    Omnipotence is worse, just because the minimum CL to cast it is higher, so it lasts much much longer; giving more powerful spells doesn't help either. Now, instead of spending 9 spell points to get 5400, I'm spending 17 spell points to get (as of the changes you've made to max out at 4th lvl wizard spells) up to 71400 points for free. 4th lvl list is full of stuff that could be potentially helpful in a wizard fight depending on op level; maybe the enemy can't grapple well, so I'll cover the field in Black Tentacles (grapple bonus scales with CL, no cap), or maybe it's higher-op and the most useful thing I can use Omnipotence for is spamming Scrying to learn everything about my opponent to try and outmaneuver their defenses, or maybe it's mid-op and I can win by just spamming Enervation until my opponent can't even try to fight anymore. Of course, with these spells, I don't have to pick and choose, I can just spam 4th lvl and lower spells basically all day to my heart's content and it doesn't matter.
    Jormengand brought up the point of all the "free" spell points earlier, and my point still stands. What can you do with all those extra spell points, above and beyond what you would have done with a different 5th/9th-level spell + your lower-level spell slots? Also, the more often the DM allows your party to rest between encounters, the more of a sucker you are for throwing away a "real" spell slot for an effect you get just by sleeping (i.e. the ability to cast your spells again).

    Spamming enervation is a poor choice against level-appropriate enemies at 17th-level, especially since you can't use various cheese to Empower/Twin it etc. if it's an SLA. Even assuming they aren't immune to energy drain at that level, wasting your action inflicting only 1d4 negative levels could mean you're about to be OTK'd. Similarly, black tentacles is a bad opening move when you could use time stop or shapechange into a pit fiend instead. However, I'm happy to knock the spell down another peg, to mimicking 3rd level spells (see also my options at the base of this post).

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    If I was going to suggest any change to these spells to make them more balanced, it wouldn't be to lower the level of the spells it can duplicate, but would be to shorten the duration. If the duration of both these spells was set to 1 round/level, you could probably have them max out at 2nd and 5th respectively with what they can duplicate, and it wouldn't be that bad. Sure, 9 rounds of 2nd lvl spells is still spending 9 spell points to get 27, but it's not spending 9 to get 5400. It makes these spells a bit more viable in the short-term as combat spell engines, and still lets them be useful for spamming utility without giving you so much extra utility that you basically make nonmagical utility completely pointless.
    First, I realllllly want to keep the hour/level duration for flavour reasons :D. Second, 1/round level would not be great IMHO. Imagine a combat situation: 1st turn is spent casting the spell (no effect on your enemies), 2nd and subsequent turns spent using SLA's 3-4 levels behind your maximum spell level. Not a recipe for success!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Since you're so insistent that this is a fair and balanced spell, I'll tell you what.

    If you're a DM, let your players have this spell. You'll see for yourself how this affects both encounter level and plot level balance.

    If you're a player trying to get a bat utility belt for his favorite character - and everything here sounds like you see yourself as more of a player than a DM - feel free to write it on your character sheet. Just understand that if there's overwhelming consensus in this thread, odds of a DM cheerfully accepting this new spell are slim.
    Well, yes? I'm a DM for what it's worth, but nobody in this thread is under any compulsion to use the spell. Like all homebrew (or official material, for that matter), it can be used or ignored according to one's game group.



    Now, here's an exercise to see what the "balance" point should be for omnipotence (currently reset at 3rd level arcane SLAs, 2nd-level divine). The first column is omnipotence as a 9th-level spell, the second are the options for spells it could duplicate. At what point does it become balanced? Remember, you're comparing the ability to use time stop, shapechange, wish, meteor swarm, astral projection, etc. once per day to the ability to use SLAs without limit for 17+ hours.

    Omnipotence Level SLA level (-1 for divine)
    9 9
    9 8
    9 7
    9 6
    9 5
    9 4
    9 3
    9 2
    9 1
    9 0

    Now, I hope we can all agree that omnipotence shouldn't be able to duplicate 9th-level spells. On the other end, if it can only duplicate cantrips it's a waste of a slot. At what range does it become broken/balanced? At what point does it have an effect beyond/below what you could accomplish with a different 9th-level spell and your low-level spell slots?

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    At-will Time Stop is cheaper to buy as an item than the items necessary to replicate Greater Prestidigitation - the lesser of your two spells - by an order of magnitude. Both of the examples you give of a spell-replicating item have the real item costing far more than the theoretical, and you're using this as an argument for why we should pretend the multi-million gold piece item price isn't appropriate for what would be necessary to replicate the lesser of the two garbage spells you made. You are so mind-numbingly focused on "herp de derpety derp it's not the most optimal thing you can do in combat so nobody gets to make any complaints about it" and you're ignoring that it's giving you basically unlimited utility...

    ...but that's exactly why you're fighting so hard for it. You want to be able to use magic spells as frequently as you could skills to do utility stuff better than skills could ever dream of doing them. You're an idiot for thinking this is anywhere close to balanced and you're a garbage person for trying to convince anybody else of the same. You refuse to accept that the spell points comparison shows your spell is light years more powerful than it has any right to be. You refuse to accept that the gold piece comparison shows that replicating your spell is more than any non-epic party could dream of affording. Go ahead and play with your stupid broken spells that rip the divide between casters and non-casters even wider than it already was, nobody can stop you. But don't try and get people on your side.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    At-will Time Stop is cheaper to buy as an item than the items necessary to replicate Greater Prestidigitation - the lesser of your two spells - by an order of magnitude. Both of the examples you give of a spell-replicating item have the real item costing far more than the theoretical, and you're using this as an argument for why we should pretend the multi-million gold piece item price isn't appropriate for what would be necessary to replicate the lesser of the two garbage spells you made. You are so mind-numbingly focused on "herp de derpety derp it's not the most optimal thing you can do in combat so nobody gets to make any complaints about it" and you're ignoring that it's giving you basically unlimited utility...

    ...but that's exactly why you're fighting so hard for it. You want to be able to use magic spells as frequently as you could skills to do utility stuff better than skills could ever dream of doing them. You're an idiot for thinking this is anywhere close to balanced and you're a garbage person for trying to convince anybody else of the same. You refuse to accept that the spell points comparison shows your spell is light years more powerful than it has any right to be. You refuse to accept that the gold piece comparison shows that replicating your spell is more than any non-epic party could dream of affording. Go ahead and play with your stupid broken spells that rip the divide between casters and non-casters even wider than it already was, nobody can stop you. But don't try and get people on your side.
    Sent you a PM.

    As for the spells, I'm willing to negotiate the levels! :) Hopefully a 9th level spell can have the SLA effect for spells of at least 2nd level without being broken? At-will 1st/0th level spells is surely only a flavour benefit at 17th+ level, not worth giving up a 9th-level spell slot for?

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    "Ah yes, your plan to outfit the royal army failed because of a clause that doesn't exist in the spell you were using. I, the Dee Emm and master of the universe, am so terribly clever."

    If you're going to change what the players' spells do, you should at least tell them that you're being a colossal butt before they try to use the spell to do a thing that it would normally be able to do but you've fiated they can't.
    So it says the spells are perfectly workable iron? Also, you let your players (if you DM) use the iron from the wall?
    Besides, I rewrote the spell for my game to cut that off, so the players did know
    And what is so bad about fixing something that would destroy the market?
    Last edited by NothingAbnormal; 2017-10-15 at 06:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    So it says the spells are perfectly workable iron? Also, you let your players (if you DM) use the iron from the wall?
    Besides, I rewrote the spell for my game to cut that off, so the players did know
    And what is so bad about fixing something that would destroy the market?
    That's a good point - the spell doesn't comment on the iron quality at all, just says that it's subject to rust :)

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    I have add that version of the spell to my game. Note that all the spells in our game have augmentation to make them more powerful when using more spell point. You can just consider that for each +2 Spell level the spell let Omnipotence cast spell of 1 level higher (Wiz 5 for lvl 1, Wiz 7 for lvl 2, Wiz 9 for lvl 3)

    Omnipotence
    Level : Wizard 3
    School : Universal
    Duration : 1 rd / level
    Components : V, S, F (Spellbook)
    Casting Time : 1 Full Round
    Range : Personal
    Area of Effect : Self
    Saving Throw : None
    Spell Resistance : None
    Mana Cost : 5

    Description : The magic surges around you and through you, transforming your whims into reality. You gain the ability to use any Arcane spell from a Spellbook you have in hand of 0th level or lower at Will as a spell-like ability, with the following provisos:

    Your Caster level is decrease to Half normal (before magic items and feats)
    If the spell requires an XP cost, you must provide that cost.
    If the spell requires an expensive material or focus component, you must pay the component's gold piece value in XP, or a minimum of 1 XP, whichever is more.
    If the spell requires a focus component, you must create one first or otherwise provide one, though it need not have any material value. The small, obviously-magical items created by prestidigitation are suitable for this purpose, though any effect linked to such a focus ends when the focus vanishes.
    If this spell is dispelled or dismissed, any ongoing effects from the spell-like abilities also end.

    Augmentation :
    [+x] For Each +4 Spell Points the Maximum level of the Spell you can cast usin Omnipotence is increase by +1
    [+2] The Caster level of spell you cast using Omnipotence have are not cut to Half.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xzoltar View Post
    I have add that version of the spell to my game. Note that all the spells in our game have augmentation to make them more powerful when using more spell point. You can just consider that for each +2 Spell level the spell let Omnipotence cast spell of 1 level higher (Wiz 5 for lvl 1, Wiz 7 for lvl 2, Wiz 9 for lvl 3)

    Omnipotence
    Level : Wizard 3
    School : Universal
    Duration : 1 rd / level
    Components : V, S, F (Spellbook)
    Casting Time : 1 Full Round
    Range : Personal
    Area of Effect : Self
    Saving Throw : None
    Spell Resistance : None
    Mana Cost : 5

    Description : The magic surges around you and through you, transforming your whims into reality. You gain the ability to use any Arcane spell from a Spellbook you have in hand of 0th level or lower at Will as a spell-like ability, with the following provisos:

    Your Caster level is decrease to Half normal (before magic items and feats)
    If the spell requires an XP cost, you must provide that cost.
    If the spell requires an expensive material or focus component, you must pay the component's gold piece value in XP, or a minimum of 1 XP, whichever is more.
    If the spell requires a focus component, you must create one first or otherwise provide one, though it need not have any material value. The small, obviously-magical items created by prestidigitation are suitable for this purpose, though any effect linked to such a focus ends when the focus vanishes.
    If this spell is dispelled or dismissed, any ongoing effects from the spell-like abilities also end.

    Augmentation :
    [+x] For Each +4 Spell Points the Maximum level of the Spell you can cast usin Omnipotence is increase by +1
    [+2] The Caster level of spell you cast using Omnipotence have are not cut to Half.
    Cool stuff! I still prefer a longer duration obviously but the psionic scaling is very elegant. Kudos :)

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    With a duration of only 1rd per CL, the spell beeing cast at only Half CL and the maximum spell level topped at level 3 this might even be underpowered. But I prefer to boost a spell later than nerf it. Still think its quite useful as it is.

    If I was to increase the duration to 1 hour per level I will put a limit of 2 Spell level per Caster level so when you have cast over this limit the spell end. The Maximum spell level could maybe be bump to 4.

    For example, at level 12th you could cast this and then use Scrying to spy on your ennemies. Buff yourself with Mage Armor, Resist Energy and Fly. Than go in combat using Dimension Door and then start trowing spell at your foes.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniikinis View Post
    Ha yeah, but it's calmed down now and the mods haven't interceded :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Xzoltar View Post
    With a duration of only 1rd per CL, the spell beeing cast at only Half CL and the maximum spell level topped at level 3 this might even be underpowered. But I prefer to boost a spell later than nerf it. Still think its quite useful as it is.

    If I was to increase the duration to 1 hour per level I will put a limit of 2 Spell level per Caster level so when you have cast over this limit the spell end. The Maximum spell level could maybe be bump to 4.

    For example, at level 12th you could cast this and then use Scrying to spy on your ennemies. Buff yourself with Mage Armor, Resist Energy and Fly. Than go in combat using Dimension Door and then start trowing spell at your foes.
    Hmm ok.

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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Ha yeah, but it's calmed down now and the mods haven't interceded :D
    AFAIK, the mods don't normally trawl the forums looking for people to ban and threads to lock. Unless someone reports a post and specifically draws their attention, they tend to be pretty easygoing. That is, outside of the main comic-discussion threads and anything related to alignment, both of which tend to attract flame-wars the same way an underdeveloped oil-rich country attracts foreign intervention.
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    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    AFAIK, the mods don't normally trawl the forums looking for people to ban and threads to lock. Unless someone reports a post and specifically draws their attention, they tend to be pretty easygoing. That is, outside of the main comic-discussion threads and anything related to alignment, both of which tend to attract flame-wars the same way an underdeveloped oil-rich country attracts foreign intervention.
    Huh! I was a lurker here long before I was a poster, I gathered GITP had a reputation for intense mods (not a bad thing! If there are any mods reading this please don't kill me :D). Then again, I was sticking more to the threads you mentioned back then so maybe it was sample bias.

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    Jul 2015

    Default Re: Greater Prestidigitation, Omnipotence (versatile spells)

    So I like the changes you've made. Personally, Id add a 7th level spell that duplicates 2nd or less (and 1st non sorc/wiz). Id also allow Prestidigitation, Greater to allow 0 level non wizard spells. I think Id also add a 3rd level spell that allows all Sorc/Wiz 0 levels at will. Also Id adjust the text so that you also have the option to have the material components for said spells instead of the XP cost. That said, I think the changes are well balanced and reasonable. I think with the changes I mentioned above, Im going to add them (4 versions, so thus the names may be adjusted) as allowed spells (on a beta basis) to my games and see how it goes.

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