4th edition!

[Were-Sandwich]

For all those people who are complaining about WotC not telling you that they were going to be updating 3.5. Think about it a bit. Did you really expect them to come out and say "Don't buy anything that we are going to be selling, because we are putting out a new edition eventually."

They're a business, whose goal is to make profit. Anyone who *didn't* see something like this coming was being quite self-deceiving.

What I'm saying is that revealing they've been lying to us for 2 years about something this big, shortly after axeing Dungeon and Dragon, isn't necessarily the best move if you want your customers to have confidence in you.

[Charity]

Roxlimn
Just to play devils advocate here for a second.
Sometimes what people want is not what people need.
The reason you get power creep, is because people want it, then they same folk whom bought all the splatbooks, because of this that or the other 'cool' prestige class or whathaveyou then whine on about the brokenness of it all, heck did we need epic? it's just daft, but it's popular so now we are getting thirty levels... Anyhow, canvassing opinion, although generally a good thing leads to rule by the lowest common denominator. This makes it marketable, but it doesn't necessarily make it fun to actually play.

^ bah all companies lie to you every time they advertise their products, WotC made a sound business decision not to effect their sales detrimentally...
When you sell your car do you point out the ciggie burn in the carpet or do you just hope they don't notice?

[banjo1985]

I think Wizards have taken a bit of a risk announcing it so early to be honest, as you say, they're going to lose a lot of possible sales over the next 9 months or so. I was expecting maybe 3 months lead time.

It's true that all companys have to make money, but it would be fair to say that your average DnD book is maybe £3-4 more expensive than any book from anoher system thats comparable, at least over here in the UK. The possibilty of 7 core books also seems a bit like overkill to me...

[mudbunny]

What I'm saying is that revealing they've been lying to us for 2 years about something this big, shortly after axeing Dungeon and Dragon, isn't necessarily the best move if you want your customers to have confidence in you.

OK. Let's play a little thought-experiment.

An announcement from WotC comes out late 2005.
"We are currently working on 4th Edition. It should be out within 3 years. It will revamp the core races, the core classes, change how weapons work, change how feats work, change how skills work."

How many more 3.5 Ed books do you buy. Do you continue buying 3.5 Ed stuff, or do you wait until 4th Ed to come out??

There are not many reasons, other than wanting to see your bottom line dive into the toilet, for a company like WotC to announce that they are making a new Edition far in advance of it being ready.

As for Dungeon and Dragon Magazine, they didn't axe it. They are just changing the way that it is being provided. What with Gleemax and their new Digital Initiative (or whatever the portal will be called), it only made sense. Look at it this way. Now they can do things like "Buy DMG, get an issue of Dragon/Dungeon Online free".

[Were-Sandwich]

Ah, Gleemax, the shrine to WOTC's delusions of grandeur.

[Charity]

Spoiler

Show

They are not taking anything away, you still have all your books, they all still work.

[rollfrenzy]

Spoiler

Show

They are not taking anything away, you still have all your books, they all still work.

1. That beer looks delicious.

2. YOUR WRONG OMG!!!!! everything we all own is going to be ruined forever. WoTC is going to come confinscate it and burn it. If we don't switch to 4.0 then we will never again be allowed to game.

3. Oh. wait. no, you're right. my bad.

[kingpain]

I've spent too much, won't do it agian. Sorry, but if they plan to run DnD like Magic the Gathering, then I'd rather not invest any time/money with them at all.

[Dusk_Rider]

So do we know yet whether 4e is using the d20 system?

[Hurlbut]

I've spent too much, won't do it agian. Sorry, but if they plan to run DnD like Magic the Gathering, then I'd rather not invest any time/money with them at all.

.... gee, at least some people in here are very open mind toward 4th, even including "wait and see" ones.

[ALOR]

.... gee, at least some people in here are very open mind toward 4th, even including "wait and see" ones.

yet he has a valid point. Why invest as much money in 4.0 as i have in 3.5 just to know that 4.5 is around the corner. Then when you buy all of 4.5 books, oops here is 5.0.

[Pendragonx]

.... gee, at least some people in here are very open mind toward 4th, even including "wait and see" ones.

meh, some of us aren't made of money :)

[rollfrenzy]

yet he has a valid point. Why invest as much money in 4.0 as i have in 3.5 just to know that 4.5 is around the corner. Then when you buy all of 4.5 books, oops here is 5.0.

This is exactly why there are people still playing 1st ed, 2nd ed, 3.0, and it's why soon that list will include 3.5.

As for everybody screaming "it's too soon". If WoTC had waited, you would have spent MORE money on books that are obsolete unsupported. And you would have argued, "We have been playing 3.5 for ten years, I don't want to learn a new system."

In short, some people are going to like the changes and buy everything that gets put out. Some are going to buy up old 3.5 books, and some will just walk away. No marketing scheme they could have come up with would have made everybody happy. Short of here's 4.0 it's free and heres all you old books for free updated to the new system.

Scream, rant, complain, boycott, buy, squeel gleefully, but in the end, as has been said before, WoTC is a business. It will produce what products it thinks will sell.

Yes, in 4-5 years, 4.5 or 5.0 will come out, just like PS4 and xbox 720.

And all this will start again.

so it goes.

[banjo1985]

Yes, in 4-5 years, 4.5 or 5.0 will come out, just like PS4 and xbox 720.

And all this will start again.

so it goes.

...and so the wheels of big business turn. You really aren't ever going to please veryone when updating a system, I play a lot of WoD and there are a hell of a lot of people that still play the old system, and they left it about 10 years between editions; people still complained.

So WotC have the most popular roleplaying system in the world; it's a liscence to print money, good luck to them. All company's do it, including other games developers. All the complaints about various aspects of 3.5 has probably made them push it out quicker as well.

[Roxlimn]

Charity:

Well, that's certainly an issue, but I think that it's not as big as issue as all that, particularly with a big edition release.

The thing with power creep and stuff that wears out is that after a time, you don't sell any more of that product once word gets around. New edition books have to sell well throughout their lifetimes or you won't make as much money. You don't really need to worry about the short-term boost because it's a new edition. Its new system and the hype that goes with it will already boost the short term sales beyond what catering to power creeping will do.

So they want to make a medium-term more or less generally saleable product. So they'll be trying to cater to what people really want as opposed to what people say they want.

I'm hoping that the thirty level spread will be something that caters to a meaningful leveling paradigm with a reasonable flat plateau for multiple flavors.

I mean in the current game, if you want gritty low level play, you play 1st to 5th and that's just about done. If you want a mid-level heroic style play, you play 5th-12th and then that's just about done. If you want legendary play, you play 12th-20th, and even that breaks down halfway through.

I'm hoping that the flavor of 20 levels has now been stretched to 30, with equal representation for all flavors of play. That is, you can experience meaningful "level ups" at every flavor without giving up that flavor.

[CabbageTheif]

have we heard anything on a 'starting pacage' for 4e yet? my plan is to wait fo it to come out, play the new system in n00bform, and see where it goes from there.

i like the races idea, but i dont like how they have all of the things that we homebrew and create (dm tools, i assume they are npc gen, town gen, even perhaps dungeon gen) but we gotta pay a monthly fee for it. the only way i'd b e interested in the computer rpart of it is if the cost was unte 10$

[yango]

have we heard anything on a 'starting pacage' for 4e yet? my plan is to wait fo it to come out, play the new system in n00bform, and see where it goes from there.

i like the races idea, but i dont like how they have all of the things that we homebrew and create (dm tools, i assume they are npc gen, town gen, even perhaps dungeon gen) but we gotta pay a monthly fee for it. the only way i'd b e interested in the computer rpart of it is if the cost was unte 10$

Adventure H1: Keep on Shadowfell is supposed to be a Level 1-3 adventure due out in April, before the core rules. It contains a starting DM booklet, Players Booklet, dice, and the adventure.

IMO if the new Dungeon and Dragon are good (which we'll be able to find out as part of their free preview), its well worth the $10, since thats how much the cost was for each of them before. As far as I'm concerned, the DM tools, Character Generation, and Online Game Table are extra gimmicks on top of the "magazines".

[yango]

yet he has a valid point. Why invest as much money in 4.0 as i have in 3.5 just to know that 4.5 is around the corner. Then when you buy all of 4.5 books, oops here is 5.0.

Because it was your choice to spend the money on all the books. If 4.5 is anything like 3.5, then you will do just fine running it out of 4.0+SRD and not need the 4.5 core books.

It makes no sense to let a grudge prevent you from buying a very worthwhile product, if 4th Edition turns out to be one.

[Svethnika]

I don't really know Saga, but here's what I have picked up about it:

1) Iterative Attacks = Gone
2) BAB = +1 AB and +1 DB
3) Off Hand Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier = x 1.0
4) Two Handed Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier = x 2.0
5) Saving Throws Scale by Level 1:1
6) Skills can be purchased and then automatically scale by level or used Untrained at Level -5(?).
7) Armour Class replaced by Defence Value

Almost all good changes (i.e. almost all changes I would make to 3e).

It also uses 'Talent Trees', but I don't pretend to understand that.

Those changes sound pretty good to me. I like the scaling skill points and the base attack bonus being damage bonus as as well especially.

[The Demented One]

I think Wizards have taken a bit of a risk announcing it so early to be honest, as you say, they're going to lose a lot of possible sales over the next 9 months or so. I was expecting maybe 3 months lead time.

I'm personally expecting that, if Wizards wants to make much money at all in the next 9 months, then most of the books will be (and will be advertised as being) compatible both with 3.5 and 4th, kind of like how Savage Species was both for 3.0 and 3.5. People aren't going to be as upset about the big expiration date on them, and some might even be drawn to them for the chance of getting a sneak peek at 4th ed.

[yango]

Those changes sound pretty good to me. I like the scaling skill points and the base attack bonus being damage bonus as as well especially.

Well, we know for a fact that AC and saves will still be separate, since they were mentioned separately in different articles.

I personally like the freedom of spreading skill points, but I would be more than willing to try a hybrid of the Saga system and the current one.

The way Talents work is that instead of having set class features, you choose them from a tree of them, which focus on various different things. This allows multiple similar classes to be combined into a single one.

[North]

if 4E is a lot like the new starwars saga im looking forwards to it. 3.5 is convoluted and pretty bloated now. Sage is a lot more stream lined. If it makes the game faster and more fun then Im all for it.

ANd I actually hope that Rich does convert OOTS to 4.0 that would be hilarious. Just like the beginning comic. Maybe Belkar gets some cool upgrades this time.

[Rob Knotts]

I'm personally expecting that, if Wizards wants to make much money at all in the next 9 months, then most of the books will be (and will be advertised as being) compatible both with 3.5 and 4th, kind of like how Savage Species was both for 3.0 and 3.5. People aren't going to be as upset about the big expiration date on them, and some might even be drawn to them for the chance of getting a sneak peek at 4th ed.

From the press release:

D&D products released between now and the launch of 4th Edition will fall into three groups. Edition-proof products (which are mostly story) will not include mechanics that are edition-specific. Some products will be "enhanced" to 4th Edition mechanics after release through DnDInsider, and a couple of series will end as 3.5 products.

The setting for the core books are campaign neutral. Forgotten Realms will be the first campaign setting to be updated (in August 2008). Other campaign settings will be updated at a rate of one per year.

[Telonius]

I'm still getting over the brain-shock of seeing the words "half-elf" and "inspiring presence" used in the same sentence.

I'm getting excited about 4e now. At the very least, I want to know just what the new rules are going to be. I really, really like the idea of making each weapon do *something* different. (Really, why use a Heavy Mace when you could use a Morningstar?)

[Dizlag]

And it would be hilarious if the halfling race was cut from Core. It's not going to be though, but just think of the comic if that happened.

*picturing Belkar turning transparent, at least until a splatbook gets published*

My 2cp on it all. I've invested a tremendous about of money into this "hobby" of mine called "Roleplaying". I will be there at "The Source" (my local gaming store) the day 4th Edition comes out. I'll subscribe to D&D Insider as well to get the .pdf of the PHB, Dungeon, Dragon, and all the other online goodies that will help my game.

Dizlag

EDIT: w00t! The D&D site is up at Wizards!

[SpikeFightwicky]

I don't know if it's just me, but I hope Monks don't make the cut for 4th ed. I was used to a monkless 2nd ed., and was always wondering where they were supposed to fit in in 3rd. In my gaming experience, they've always been a 'flurry of headaches' for the players.

I really hope that they re-introduce Ravenloft as a fully supported realm. S&S did a good job, but it didn't have the same D&D feel when I played in 2nd ed.

[Were-Sandwich]

I like the fact that one of the articles links to Nintendo 64 kid

[Rayek]

The announcement of 4e actually came as a relief to me. It means I have no more 3.5 D&D rulebooks to buy. I own all of the current 3.5 books that interest me, and now know that nothing new for 3.5 will be coming down the pipe. My bank account is thanking me already.

I don't have anything against a new edition, but am happy enough with 3.5 to not feel the need to replace it. If the revisions in 4e are truly revolutionary and take the game to a whole new level of playability, I might be compelled to buy. I have no interest; however, in paying a monthly fee for spiffy online content, or the ability to play over the internet. D&D for me is a social game where I get to interact with players face to face, not avatar to avatar.

My feeling is that 4e will basically do these things: 1. Hopefully cleanup and streamline the rules. 2. Recycle/Repackage existing products via revised, retitled and expanded 4e versions of them. 3. Tie the miniatures game in even more fully. 4. Provide a steady stream of revenue from online subscriptions.

[ALOR]

Because it was your choice to spend the money on all the books. If 4.5 is anything like 3.5, then you will do just fine running it out of 4.0+SRD and not need the 4.5 core books.

It makes no sense to let a grudge prevent you from buying a very worthwhile product, if 4th Edition turns out to be one.

I wouldn't consider "grudge" and "waisting money" the same thing. I don't want to buy 4.0 because in 4-5 years they will bring forth yet another update/new eddition thats makes all of the current books outdated and they will keep doing it and doing it until they ride D&D into the ground.

When the SRD comes out i will read it but i don't intened ,at this point, to give WotC any more of my money.

I'm not telling anyone else not to buy 4.0. I'm not trying to start a crusade against WotC. I'm just not waisting anymore of my money on them.

[Eladrinstar]

Angry Gamer Rant:

If there is a time to purposely mispell words, it is now! *Head Asplodes!"

They lied to us! They have been saying for years "No plans for 4e". And then they pull this! It doesn't so much make me angry that they did it, it's just that they did it by being dishonest about it!

Good news for Forgotten Realms fans, though: Grand History of the Forgotten Realms will sell well, due to having no crunch so it won't become obsolete. Which means Hasbro will look and say "Hey, how about more of that."

I hope OotS will not be updated!