4th edition!

[Zeful]

*grin* Conspiracy Theory Time:

They have been. There are a lot of homebrew boards out there, including the one on this forum. There are lots of people posting to these forums. Just because a person doesn't leap out at you and scream "I WORK FOR WOTC" in your face every time they post, doesn't mean they don't. For all we know the Giant, Vorpal, Fax, Bears and many others here have been hard at work on 4th edition, and unable to tell us that because of Non-Disclosure Agreements.

Chunks of what they've been working on, on these very boards may be incorporated into 4rh edition, after having been examined and commented on by the many different types of gamers here. We won't know until we see some of the final rulebooks.

While that'd be cool and a great way to include the populace, but it can be a good way to alienate homebrewers. An example would be me opening the 4^th ed.'s players hand book and seeing my Blaze of Glory spell listed under the paladin's spell section. I'd be pissed if that happened and there'd be nothing I could do about it because the material isn't copyrighted under my real name and all I've got on my side is a post three years before 4^th ed. existed that has identical wording, under a false identity that cannot be traced to me. If that happenes the people who make homebrew won't and WoTC will be shown to be uncreative, word will get around and WoTC will be sold off by Hasbro because it's hemoraging profits left and right.

So in the end, if you saw it on a Homebrew board it won't be in 4^th ed.

[Fhaolan]

While that'd be cool and a great way to include the populace, but it can be a good way to alienate homebrewers. An example would be me opening the 4^th ed.'s players hand book and seeing my Blaze of Glory spell listed under the paladin's spell section. I'd be pissed if that happened and there'd be nothing I could do about it because the material isn't copyrighted under my real name and all I've got on my side is a post three years before 4^th ed. existed that has identical wording, under a false identity that cannot be traced to me. If that happenes the people who make homebrew won't and WoTC will be shown to be uncreative, word will get around and WoTC will be sold off by Hasbro because it's hemoraging profits left and right.

So in the end, if you saw it on a Homebrew board it won't be in 4^th ed.

*laugh* Not *your* homebrew stuff. *Their* homebrew stuff. The stuff that they 'plant' in the forums for review.

[RandomNPC]

*laugh* Not *your* homebrew stuff. *Their* homebrew stuff. The stuff that they 'plant' in the forums for review.

that makes total sense.

[ArmorArmadillo]

*laugh* Not *your* homebrew stuff. *Their* homebrew stuff. The stuff that they 'plant' in the forums for review.

The OGL states in no uncertain terms that they can use anything and everything anyone publishes in WotC material however they like.

I don't see it as a conspiracy, just something homebrewers must accept about the nature of their work. Frankly, I'd be flattered about something I wrote becoming core.

[Overlord]

I've heard a lot of talk about "Quit complaining! You can still use your D&D 3.5 stuff if you want!"

And that's true. But you're missing the point.

A small minority of grognards can, and probably will, keep playing 3.5 forever. And a lot more will do so for the first year or so after 4.0 comes out.

But the rest of the community will either completely switch to Shadowrun, WoD, or whatever, or move on to 4th Edition.

Slowly, the posters on message boards like this one and ENWorld, not to mention Wizards, will cease discussing and producing homebrew for 3.5.

Look at how many people discuss 2nd Edition on this forum. You can count the number of threads per month on one hand. And most of us posters can't really even help the optimization help questions that almost all of those posts I've seen turn out to be. It's just been so long since most of the others and myself have cracked open a 2nd edition rulebook that we can't be of much use. And how many 1st Edition posts have you seen? Any support 2nd edition still had will completely dry up.

What's worse is that any and all third party sources we might have once relied on will switch over pretty quickly. If you really liked your, say, Malhavoc Press' Arcana Evolved line, well, sooner or later you're going to have to switch, otherwise the product line will leave you in the dust, and you won't be able to use much of the crunch in their products.

Worst of all, sooner or later most of your gaming group will probably switch. If you're like me and got your friends into D&D in the first place, it won't be such a big deal; they'll play whatever version I run their games in. But the rest of you might not be so fortunate. You might be left as the odd man out if you cling too long to 3.5.

Now, I think 4th Edition could be a good thing. But there are several things Wizards (or more likely Hasbro) could have done better:

• No matter what some of you may say, I think that it's too soon. Yeah, 3.0 came out nearly eight years ago. And if they hadn't released 3.5, then I would be much happier about this situation. But the fact is, we just switched over to 3.5 four years ago. Yes, four years is a good long while, but still, I am heavily invested in it. I wanted to get several more years of use out of these books before support for the version trickled away.
• I think it was an excruciatingly greedy move to cancel the License on Dragon and Dungeon, only to replace them with Wizards' own version, and then proceed to hike the cost. A one year to subscription to both magazines cost, what, $80 U.S.? And that's for a printed magazine with a solid reputation and history of high standards. This D&D insider is supposed to cost $10 a month. That's $120 a year. For a web-only publication of unspecified size, uncertain quality (how much art will there be? What's the layout-is it going to be a nice pdf or text-only web articles? More importantly, how good is the material going to be?), and that will undoubtedly be filled with plugs for Wizards products? I don't think so. I certainly hope that price is incorrect.
• They said they had been working on this since early 2005. Now, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one, and assume that by their statements they meant that they thought, "Hey, let's try putting these cool new ideas in ToB. If it goes over well, hey, maybe we could use them in 4th Edition!" But if they had a planning meeting in 2005 titled "4th Edition," then shame on them. And you know what? I think that's exactly what happened. And it darn near infuriates me that they would consider switching to a new edition a year and a half after they released 3.5. This isn't console hardware production; roleplaying game technology does not follow Moore's Law.

So, in the end, I'm not really very optimistic about 4th Edition. But if they can impress me, they'll make a sale; I'm not that anti-Wizards or anything. I'm just rather disappointed in the way Hasbro has either forced or allowed Wizards to take D&D down this path. Gleemax? D&D does not need to turn into an MMORPG. I'm sure the Wizards designers are doing the best they can under the conditions they're being placed in. I have a lot of respect for them (based almost entirely on their past work, sadly), and I know I certainly couldn't do a better job. But other companies, such as Malhavoc and especially Paizo are doing a better job, and it's obvious that there are many others, like Vorpal and Fax, who could do a better job if somebody let them.

[ALOR]

What, you guys really thought D&D would really NEVER change? You thought this would go on perpetually with endless splatbooks? Why are you surprised?

Well, no, i did think it would change. What i didn't think would happen would be a endless parade of new edditions every 5 years. Thats why at this point I'm done with WotC.
I may change my mind when 4e comes out, it may wow me so much that i absolutely must have it. Of course, I might like 5e or 6e more. I'll just wait 7 years and see

[skywalker]

Okay, okay, so I think, what obviously needs to happen here, is Fax, Vorpal and the like need to come out and say "Hey, we've been WotC plants this whole time." If they did that, how would you all feel?


I'm sure there's somebody somewhere who'd be like "OMG YOU LIED TO ME!!!1!!1"

[ray53208]

Overlord and ALOR hit the nail squarely on the head.

tomorrow, bright and early i sell off all my d&d stuff at the local HPB. i know ill get hosed, but it beats it all just collecting dust. and all the freed up space on my game shelf will go to more deserving smaller gaming companies.

i firmly believe now that big corporations and gaming do not mix; or rather, when they do the fans get rooked.

im saddened by the fact that i am saying this, but i really think im through with d&d.

[Iku Rex]

They said they had been working on this since early 2005. Now, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one, and assume that by their statements they meant that they thought, "Hey, let's try putting these cool new ideas in ToB. If it goes over well, hey, maybe we could use them in 4th Edition!" But if they had a planning meeting in 2005 titled "4th Edition," then shame on them. And you know what? I think that's exactly what happened. And it darn near infuriates me that they would consider switching to a new edition a year and a half after they released 3.5. This isn't console hardware production; roleplaying game technology does not follow Moore's Law.

Here's what Monte Cook said after 3.5 came out. I think it's very telling:

A few weeks ago, in an interview at gamingreport.com I said that 3.5 was motivated by financial need rather than by design need -- in short, to make money rather than because the game really needed an update. I said that I had this information from a reliable source.

That source was me. I was there.

See, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, which might make you mad: 3.5 was planned from the beginning.

Even before 3.0 went to the printer, the business team overseeing D&D was talking about 3.5. Not surprisingly, most of the designers -- particularly the actual 3.0 team (Jonathan Tweet, Skip Williams, and I) thought this was a poor idea. Also not surprisingly, our concerns were not enough to affect the plan. The idea, they assured us, was to make a revised edition that was nothing but a cleanup of any errata that might have been found after the book's release, a clarification of issues that seemed to confuse large numbers of players, and, most likely, all new art. It was slated to come out in 2004 or 2005, to give a boost to sales at a point where -- judging historically from the sales trends of previous editions -- they probably would be slumping a bit. It wasn't to replace everyone's books, and it wouldn't raise any compatibility or conversion issues.

Here I sit, in 2003, with my reviewer's copies of the 3.5 books next to my computer, and that's not what I see.

Source: http://www.montecook.com/arch_review26.html

I'm sure they're planning v4.5 already. They got away with it the last time - there's no reason not to try again.

[horseboy]

i firmly believe now that big corporations and gaming do not mix; or rather, when they do the fans get rooked.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see how you were "rooked".

im saddened by the fact that i am saying this, but i really think im through with d&d.

Well, no. Not every company holds an open public beta. However, given just how INCREDIBLY broken the system was, how poorly written and how "sucktastic" this pile is, why wouldn't you want it fixed sooner?

[The Extinguisher]

I honestly don't think this will go over to well. I mean, it takes away the very key parts of the game, gathering everyone together, eating pizza, laughing at peoples jokes, bribing/threatening/seducing the DM into giving you good stuff, and chucking dice and/or other miscenallious objects for bad rolls.

This is basicly D&D Online, with some stuff from old editions chucked in and marketed to sell better.

[Green Bean]

I honestly don't think this will go over to well. I mean, it takes away the very key parts of the game, gathering everyone together, eating pizza, laughing at peoples jokes, bribing/threatening/seducing the DM into giving you good stuff, and chucking dice and/or other miscenallious objects for bad rolls.

This is basicly D&D Online, with some stuff from old editions chucked in and marketed to sell better.

Yeah, it's a shame they changed rule 0 from 'the DM is always right' to 'you can't play with friends in person ever again'

[ray53208]

I'm sorry, but I really don't see how you were "rooked".

Well, no. Not every company holds an open public beta. However, given just how INCREDIBLY broken the system was, how poorly written and how "sucktastic" this pile is, why wouldn't you want it fixed sooner?

1. see Iku Rex's post before yours.

2. im not done with d&d? okay, kreskin.

what are you talking about? previous versions of d&d were "sucktastic" and broken? if thats what your saying then that is entirely your opinion, and it is not shared by me. i dont think it was broken and it didnt need fixing (any clarifications or eratta was already online for free). i believe this was a purely economic move planned in advance to seperate the gamer from his cash. its not cool and any faith i had in wotc/hasbro is gone. because i was rooked.

[horseboy]

1. see Iku Rex's post before yours.

2. im not done with d&d? okay, kreskin.

?

what are you talking about? previous versions of d&d were "sucktastic" and broken? if thats what your saying then that is entirely your opinion, and it is not shared by me. i dont think it was broken and it didnt need fixing (any clarifications or eratta was already online for free). i believe this was a purely economic move planned in advance to seperate the gamer from his cash. its not cool and any faith i had in wotc/hasbro is gone. because i was rooked.

If it takes more effort to make something that's not broken than it takes to make something broken. Then the game is broken. 3.X was one of the most broken games I've ever seen. To make it playable it had to be scrapped.

Edit: Now that maintenance is done:
Of course it was purely economic. D&D has been nothing more than a broke-#@@ cash cow since, oh, at least Spells and Powers. You had to have known that. You either didn't care that that's what it was or chose not to see it. Now all of a sudden you're upset with WotC for being WotC. That's like blaming a shark for being a shark.

Hmm, maybe Joe can express it better than me.

[Matthew]

Keep cooler heads folks. It's only a new edition, they come around every ten years or so. Discussion of 1e and 2e will not suddenly dry up, just take a walk over to Dragonsfoot to see that. This site will most likely become all about 4e, but there will be others catering exclusively to 3e. Frankly, though, I don't really see enough 'good' 3e material coming out from Wizards of the Coast to care that they will soon stop supporting this edition. The game is as playable as it ever was and there are plenty of Adventure Modules out there to pick up.

Okay, anyone watched these videos:

Presentation Videos: (D&D will apparently no longer require an imagination)

Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 1
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 2

Alternative Presentation Videos:

Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 1
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 2
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 3
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 4

Interview with Andy Collins: (Also known as "Put some God Damn Pants on!")

Dungeons & Dragons Interview Part 1
Dungeons & Dragons Interview Part 1

Andy Collins - "Being a Wizard is about blasting people with magical energy."

[PlatinumJester]

The on line thing looks retarded. Maybe for an hour long session but who would do that for an 8 hour session. No where near as fun as playing with your mates.

[Matthew]

Looks to me like an old CRPG like X-Com (which was admittedly a lot of fun). They might as well animate the figures and go the full hog into a MOMCRPG. Still, as an alternative to Face to Face play, it's not a bad idea and commercially, I suspect, this is going to be a winner.

[Edit]
Anyone ever see that WoW South Park Episode? I'm kind of reminded of that.

[Enlong]

What's all this about supposedly "only" being able to play online? I though it was coming out with rulebooks just like 3.x, and the online thing was something you "can" do, and not the "only way" to play?
Not to mention the fact that one of those teaser videos showed a group sitting 'round a table, basically using their laptops as rulebooks (which is one of the features they're boasting, being able to upload the info from a rulebook to your computer), and that some of the play-testing reports I've read mentioned that feature as well, basically using the computer as a way to cut down on the amount of clutter at a game table.

[Matthew]

What's all this about supposedly "only" being able to play online?

Huh? Where'd you hear that? That would be pretty silly. I think you may have misinterpreted something somewhere along the line. A common complaint at the moment is that a lot of material will only be available to subscribers.

[Enlong]

Huh? Where'd you hear that? That would be pretty silly. I think you may have misinterpreted something somewhere along the line. A common complaint at the moment is that a lot of material will only be available to subscribers.

Like what? I mean, the core 3 is going to be available to anyone with money to buy the physical books, right? What's the exclusive material?

Also, I could've sworn that someone said that it wasn't going to be the same; something about "It'll be fun, for like a 1-hour session, but for an eight-hour session, it's just not the same as being face-to-face with your chums" or something to that effect. I think someone else lamented the loss of the feel that you get when playing the game around pizza, or something. I dunno. I just can distinctly remember at least one person denouncing the online computer version of the game, when it looks as though playing normally is still a very real option. Maybe it was another board, but I distinctly remember this.

[Matthew]

Like what? I mean, the core 3 is going to be available to anyone with money to buy the physical books, right? What's the exclusive material?

Basically it looks like it's going to be the sort of stuff they have been releasing and posting up for free until now, i.e. all the web Enhancement Material.

Also, I could've sworn that someone said that it wasn't going to be the same; something about "It'll be fun, for like a 1-hour session, but for an eight-hour session, it's just not the same as being face-to-face with your chums" or something to that effect. I think someone else lamented the loss of the feel that you get when playing the game around pizza, or something. I dunno. I just can distinctly remember at least one person denouncing the online computer version of the game, when it looks as though playing normally is still a very real option. Maybe it was another board, but I distinctly remember this.

Yeah, PlatinumJester said so just above, but not in the context of D&D as a whole, just with regard to this new aspect of the game they are pushing [i.e. "now you can play online for a fee"]

[ALOR]

Here's what Monte Cook said after 3.5 came out. I think it's very telling:

I'm sure they're planning v4.5 already. They got away with it the last time - there's no reason not to try again.

wow, that pretty much just confirms my fears

[jamroar]

Greyhawk will not be default setting in core. We want to leverage the assets of the assumed parts of a D&D world – Mordenkainen, Bigby, Vecna, Llolth, Tiamat, Asmodeus, etc. However, we also want to call upon the great mythology that is more commonly known such as Thor, etc.

Ugh. It looks like they're going for fully generic for the core setting.

Or perhaps the core campaign setting is the OOTSverse?

Hopefully, we can get another Greyhawk Gazetteer, Living or otherwise in the interim, or finally a full fledged campaign book(!).

[Fhaolan]

Actually, that's a fascinating question... What does this mean to the various Living campaigns going on right now? Has this been mentioned anywhere? Are they going to continue with 3.5, or are they going to upgrade en-mass somehow?

I don't play Living myself, yet, but I keep looking at it speculatively. I'm not sure it suits my playing style, especially given the write-up of the region I'm currently living in.

[Dervag]

OK, I'm a little vague about what's going on here.

My first question is: Is there actually evidence that Wizards is planning to 'force' 4th Edition to be played online? Have they come out and said that they are not actually publishing actual books? Or are they merely supplying means to play online and charging money for the privilege of doing so?

[Matthew]

They're just supporting it, but very strongly. The idea being that 'digital D&D' will be an even better experience is being pushed out quite heavily.

[ALOR]

OK, I'm a little vague about what's going on here.

My first question is: Is there actually evidence that Wizards is planning to 'force' 4th Edition to be played online? Have they come out and said that they are not actually publishing actual books? Or are they merely supplying means to play online and charging money for the privilege of doing so?

my understanding is that they are offering enhancments online, and new ways to play online for a subscription price, but thier will still be printed books

[Morty]

Bleh. No matter how strongly they support it, I'm not giving a crap about it. As long as they release actual books for normal sessions, I'm fine with it, though.

[jamroar]

OK, I'm a little vague about what's going on here.

My first question is: Is there actually evidence that Wizards is planning to 'force' 4th Edition to be played online? Have they come out and said that they are not actually publishing actual books? Or are they merely supplying means to play online and charging money for the privilege of doing so?

The Spooky Wizard is not 'forcing' anyone to play D&D online. Books will still be published. It's just that they will be providing extra content/web tools/web gaming platform to subscribers only.

P.S. The web gaming platform thing sounds like a good idea, but hopefully it actually works out for them. Remember the vaporware Master Toolkit demoed on the CD included in the first run of the 3.0 PHB?

[Fax Celestis]

Fax is really David Noonan!

Charity is Skip Williams!