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Thread: 4th edition!
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2007-08-17, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
While that'd be cool and a great way to include the populace, but it can be a good way to alienate homebrewers. An example would be me opening the 4th ed.'s players hand book and seeing my Blaze of Glory spell listed under the paladin's spell section. I'd be pissed if that happened and there'd be nothing I could do about it because the material isn't copyrighted under my real name and all I've got on my side is a post three years before 4th ed. existed that has identical wording, under a false identity that cannot be traced to me. If that happenes the people who make homebrew won't and WoTC will be shown to be uncreative, word will get around and WoTC will be sold off by Hasbro because it's hemoraging profits left and right.
So in the end, if you saw it on a Homebrew board it won't be in 4th ed.
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2007-08-17, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-17, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-17, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
The OGL states in no uncertain terms that they can use anything and everything anyone publishes in WotC material however they like.
I don't see it as a conspiracy, just something homebrewers must accept about the nature of their work. Frankly, I'd be flattered about something I wrote becoming core.Gnoll Paladin with Zanbatou Avatar by Oregano.
Homebrews:
Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
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2007-08-18, 12:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
I've heard a lot of talk about "Quit complaining! You can still use your D&D 3.5 stuff if you want!"
And that's true. But you're missing the point.
A small minority of grognards can, and probably will, keep playing 3.5 forever. And a lot more will do so for the first year or so after 4.0 comes out.
But the rest of the community will either completely switch to Shadowrun, WoD, or whatever, or move on to 4th Edition.
Slowly, the posters on message boards like this one and ENWorld, not to mention Wizards, will cease discussing and producing homebrew for 3.5.
Look at how many people discuss 2nd Edition on this forum. You can count the number of threads per month on one hand. And most of us posters can't really even help the optimization help questions that almost all of those posts I've seen turn out to be. It's just been so long since most of the others and myself have cracked open a 2nd edition rulebook that we can't be of much use. And how many 1st Edition posts have you seen? Any support 2nd edition still had will completely dry up.
What's worse is that any and all third party sources we might have once relied on will switch over pretty quickly. If you really liked your, say, Malhavoc Press' Arcana Evolved line, well, sooner or later you're going to have to switch, otherwise the product line will leave you in the dust, and you won't be able to use much of the crunch in their products.
Worst of all, sooner or later most of your gaming group will probably switch. If you're like me and got your friends into D&D in the first place, it won't be such a big deal; they'll play whatever version I run their games in. But the rest of you might not be so fortunate. You might be left as the odd man out if you cling too long to 3.5.
Now, I think 4th Edition could be a good thing. But there are several things Wizards (or more likely Hasbro) could have done better:
- No matter what some of you may say, I think that it's too soon. Yeah, 3.0 came out nearly eight years ago. And if they hadn't released 3.5, then I would be much happier about this situation. But the fact is, we just switched over to 3.5 four years ago. Yes, four years is a good long while, but still, I am heavily invested in it. I wanted to get several more years of use out of these books before support for the version trickled away.
- I think it was an excruciatingly greedy move to cancel the License on Dragon and Dungeon, only to replace them with Wizards' own version, and then proceed to hike the cost. A one year to subscription to both magazines cost, what, $80 U.S.? And that's for a printed magazine with a solid reputation and history of high standards. This D&D insider is supposed to cost $10 a month. That's $120 a year. For a web-only publication of unspecified size, uncertain quality (how much art will there be? What's the layout-is it going to be a nice pdf or text-only web articles? More importantly, how good is the material going to be?), and that will undoubtedly be filled with plugs for Wizards products? I don't think so. I certainly hope that price is incorrect.
- They said they had been working on this since early 2005. Now, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one, and assume that by their statements they meant that they thought, "Hey, let's try putting these cool new ideas in ToB. If it goes over well, hey, maybe we could use them in 4th Edition!" But if they had a planning meeting in 2005 titled "4th Edition," then shame on them. And you know what? I think that's exactly what happened. And it darn near infuriates me that they would consider switching to a new edition a year and a half after they released 3.5. This isn't console hardware production; roleplaying game technology does not follow Moore's Law.
So, in the end, I'm not really very optimistic about 4th Edition. But if they can impress me, they'll make a sale; I'm not that anti-Wizards or anything. I'm just rather disappointed in the way Hasbro has either forced or allowed Wizards to take D&D down this path. Gleemax? D&D does not need to turn into an MMORPG. I'm sure the Wizards designers are doing the best they can under the conditions they're being placed in. I have a lot of respect for them (based almost entirely on their past work, sadly), and I know I certainly couldn't do a better job. But other companies, such as Malhavoc and especially Paizo are doing a better job, and it's obvious that there are many others, like Vorpal and Fax, who could do a better job if somebody let them.
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2007-08-18, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Well, no, i did think it would change. What i didn't think would happen would be a endless parade of new edditions every 5 years. Thats why at this point I'm done with WotC.
I may change my mind when 4e comes out, it may wow me so much that i absolutely must have it. Of course, I might like 5e or 6e more. I'll just wait 7 years and see::: my eternal gratitude to Nathan for the incredibly sweet werewolf avatar:::
"No dude, it's true, halflings are real i saw it on Oprah"
said in all seriousness by my friend Robert Bloom to a chorus of laughter
"Oh, little ice cream friends! thog delays boredom-driven rampage only for you!"
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2007-08-18, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Okay, okay, so I think, what obviously needs to happen here, is Fax, Vorpal and the like need to come out and say "Hey, we've been WotC plants this whole time." If they did that, how would you all feel?
I'm sure there's somebody somewhere who'd be like "OMG YOU LIED TO ME!!!1!!1"I am continuing to have a social life. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Serious-Jedi-Me-Avatar by RTG0922. Thanks. Cat-assassin-avatar by onasuma, who I was too dumb to thank. Thanks for that too!
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2007-08-18, 01:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Overlord and ALOR hit the nail squarely on the head.
tomorrow, bright and early i sell off all my d&d stuff at the local HPB. i know ill get hosed, but it beats it all just collecting dust. and all the freed up space on my game shelf will go to more deserving smaller gaming companies.
i firmly believe now that big corporations and gaming do not mix; or rather, when they do the fans get rooked.
im saddened by the fact that i am saying this, but i really think im through with d&d.There are some words which I have known since I was a schoolboy. "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." These words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie -- as a wisdom, and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged.
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2007-08-18, 01:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Here's what Monte Cook said after 3.5 came out. I think it's very telling:
A few weeks ago, in an interview at gamingreport.com I said that 3.5 was motivated by financial need rather than by design need -- in short, to make money rather than because the game really needed an update. I said that I had this information from a reliable source.
That source was me. I was there.
See, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, which might make you mad: 3.5 was planned from the beginning.
Even before 3.0 went to the printer, the business team overseeing D&D was talking about 3.5. Not surprisingly, most of the designers -- particularly the actual 3.0 team (Jonathan Tweet, Skip Williams, and I) thought this was a poor idea. Also not surprisingly, our concerns were not enough to affect the plan. The idea, they assured us, was to make a revised edition that was nothing but a cleanup of any errata that might have been found after the book's release, a clarification of issues that seemed to confuse large numbers of players, and, most likely, all new art. It was slated to come out in 2004 or 2005, to give a boost to sales at a point where -- judging historically from the sales trends of previous editions -- they probably would be slumping a bit. It wasn't to replace everyone's books, and it wouldn't raise any compatibility or conversion issues.
Here I sit, in 2003, with my reviewer's copies of the 3.5 books next to my computer, and that's not what I see.
I'm sure they're planning v4.5 already. They got away with it the last time - there's no reason not to try again.Last edited by Iku Rex; 2007-08-18 at 02:32 AM. Reason: typo
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2007-08-18, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
I'm sorry, but I really don't see how you were "rooked".
im saddened by the fact that i am saying this, but i really think im through with d&d.
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2007-08-18, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
I honestly don't think this will go over to well. I mean, it takes away the very key parts of the game, gathering everyone together, eating pizza, laughing at peoples jokes, bribing/threatening/seducing the DM into giving you good stuff, and chucking dice and/or other miscenallious objects for bad rolls.
This is basicly D&D Online, with some stuff from old editions chucked in and marketed to sell better.Thanks Uncle Festy for the wonderful Ashling Avatar
I make music
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2007-08-18, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-18, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
1. see Iku Rex's post before yours.
2. im not done with d&d? okay, kreskin.
what are you talking about? previous versions of d&d were "sucktastic" and broken? if thats what your saying then that is entirely your opinion, and it is not shared by me. i dont think it was broken and it didnt need fixing (any clarifications or eratta was already online for free). i believe this was a purely economic move planned in advance to seperate the gamer from his cash. its not cool and any faith i had in wotc/hasbro is gone. because i was rooked.There are some words which I have known since I was a schoolboy. "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." These words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie -- as a wisdom, and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged.
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2007-08-18, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
?
what are you talking about? previous versions of d&d were "sucktastic" and broken? if thats what your saying then that is entirely your opinion, and it is not shared by me. i dont think it was broken and it didnt need fixing (any clarifications or eratta was already online for free). i believe this was a purely economic move planned in advance to seperate the gamer from his cash. its not cool and any faith i had in wotc/hasbro is gone. because i was rooked.
Edit: Now that maintenance is done:
Of course it was purely economic. D&D has been nothing more than a broke-#@@ cash cow since, oh, at least Spells and Powers. You had to have known that. You either didn't care that that's what it was or chose not to see it. Now all of a sudden you're upset with WotC for being WotC. That's like blaming a shark for being a shark.
Hmm, maybe Joe can express it better than me.
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2007-08-18, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Keep cooler heads folks. It's only a new edition, they come around every ten years or so. Discussion of 1e and 2e will not suddenly dry up, just take a walk over to Dragonsfoot to see that. This site will most likely become all about 4e, but there will be others catering exclusively to 3e. Frankly, though, I don't really see enough 'good' 3e material coming out from Wizards of the Coast to care that they will soon stop supporting this edition. The game is as playable as it ever was and there are plenty of Adventure Modules out there to pick up.
Okay, anyone watched these videos:
Presentation Videos: (D&D will apparently no longer require an imagination)
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 1
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 2
Alternative Presentation Videos:
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 1
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 2
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 3
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 4
Interview with Andy Collins: (Also known as "Put some God Damn Pants on!")
Dungeons & Dragons Interview Part 1
Dungeons & Dragons Interview Part 1
Andy Collins - "Being a Wizard is about blasting people with magical energy."Last edited by Matthew; 2007-08-18 at 06:49 AM.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-08-18, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
The on line thing looks retarded. Maybe for an hour long session but who would do that for an 8 hour session. No where near as fun as playing with your mates.
Own it, pwn it, nuke it, sheep it, eat it, quick re -right it, Joe it, turn it, turnip, pimp it, gimp it, dot it, rock it, spec re - spec it...
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As a Warblade, I'm pimp as hell.
Big up kpenguin for the chronic Avatar.
Powergaming - because you can't roleplay when your dead.
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2007-08-18, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Looks to me like an old CRPG like X-Com (which was admittedly a lot of fun). They might as well animate the figures and go the full hog into a MOMCRPG. Still, as an alternative to Face to Face play, it's not a bad idea and commercially, I suspect, this is going to be a winner.
[Edit]
Anyone ever see that WoW South Park Episode? I'm kind of reminded of that.Last edited by Matthew; 2007-08-18 at 06:45 AM.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-08-18, 07:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
What's all this about supposedly "only" being able to play online? I though it was coming out with rulebooks just like 3.x, and the online thing was something you "can" do, and not the "only way" to play?
Not to mention the fact that one of those teaser videos showed a group sitting 'round a table, basically using their laptops as rulebooks (which is one of the features they're boasting, being able to upload the info from a rulebook to your computer), and that some of the play-testing reports I've read mentioned that feature as well, basically using the computer as a way to cut down on the amount of clutter at a game table.Awesome Avatar by Shattersnap.
Spoiler
Many thanks to El Goonish Shive for the banner image.
Give a player a fish, and he’ll probably try to sell it to an NPC fisherman.
Teach a player to fish, and next week he’ll show up with the book, “The Complete Adventuring Fisherman”. He’ll start hunting for some monstrous leviathan to catch and enslave, and he’ll be dual-wielding two fishing poles.
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2007-08-18, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-08-18, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Like what? I mean, the core 3 is going to be available to anyone with money to buy the physical books, right? What's the exclusive material?
Also, I could've sworn that someone said that it wasn't going to be the same; something about "It'll be fun, for like a 1-hour session, but for an eight-hour session, it's just not the same as being face-to-face with your chums" or something to that effect. I think someone else lamented the loss of the feel that you get when playing the game around pizza, or something. I dunno. I just can distinctly remember at least one person denouncing the online computer version of the game, when it looks as though playing normally is still a very real option. Maybe it was another board, but I distinctly remember this.Last edited by Enlong; 2007-08-18 at 08:20 AM.
Awesome Avatar by Shattersnap.
Spoiler
Many thanks to El Goonish Shive for the banner image.
Give a player a fish, and he’ll probably try to sell it to an NPC fisherman.
Teach a player to fish, and next week he’ll show up with the book, “The Complete Adventuring Fisherman”. He’ll start hunting for some monstrous leviathan to catch and enslave, and he’ll be dual-wielding two fishing poles.
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2007-08-18, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Basically it looks like it's going to be the sort of stuff they have been releasing and posting up for free until now, i.e. all the web Enhancement Material.
Also, I could've sworn that someone said that it wasn't going to be the same; something about "It'll be fun, for like a 1-hour session, but for an eight-hour session, it's just not the same as being face-to-face with your chums" or something to that effect. I think someone else lamented the loss of the feel that you get when playing the game around pizza, or something. I dunno. I just can distinctly remember at least one person denouncing the online computer version of the game, when it looks as though playing normally is still a very real option. Maybe it was another board, but I distinctly remember this.It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-08-18, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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::: my eternal gratitude to Nathan for the incredibly sweet werewolf avatar:::
"No dude, it's true, halflings are real i saw it on Oprah"
said in all seriousness by my friend Robert Bloom to a chorus of laughter
"Oh, little ice cream friends! thog delays boredom-driven rampage only for you!"
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2007-08-18, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Greyhawk will not be default setting in core. We want to leverage the assets of the assumed parts of a D&D world – Mordenkainen, Bigby, Vecna, Llolth, Tiamat, Asmodeus, etc. However, we also want to call upon the great mythology that is more commonly known such as Thor, etc.
Or perhaps the core campaign setting is the OOTSverse?
Hopefully, we can get another Greyhawk Gazetteer, Living or otherwise in the interim, or finally a full fledged campaign book(!).Last edited by jamroar; 2007-08-18 at 11:17 AM.
Moon-faced Assassin of Joy
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2007-08-18, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Actually, that's a fascinating question... What does this mean to the various Living campaigns going on right now? Has this been mentioned anywhere? Are they going to continue with 3.5, or are they going to upgrade en-mass somehow?
I don't play Living myself, yet, but I keep looking at it speculatively. I'm not sure it suits my playing style, especially given the write-up of the region I'm currently living in.Fhaolan by me! Raga avatar by Mephibosheth!
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2007-08-18, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
OK, I'm a little vague about what's going on here.
My first question is: Is there actually evidence that Wizards is planning to 'force' 4th Edition to be played online? Have they come out and said that they are not actually publishing actual books? Or are they merely supplying means to play online and charging money for the privilege of doing so?
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2007-08-18, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
They're just supporting it, but very strongly. The idea being that 'digital D&D' will be an even better experience is being pushed out quite heavily.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2007-08-18, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
::: my eternal gratitude to Nathan for the incredibly sweet werewolf avatar:::
"No dude, it's true, halflings are real i saw it on Oprah"
said in all seriousness by my friend Robert Bloom to a chorus of laughter
"Oh, little ice cream friends! thog delays boredom-driven rampage only for you!"
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2007-08-18, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
Bleh. No matter how strongly they support it, I'm not giving a crap about it. As long as they release actual books for normal sessions, I'm fine with it, though.
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2007-08-18, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th edition!
The Spooky Wizard is not 'forcing' anyone to play D&D online. Books will still be published. It's just that they will be providing extra content/web tools/web gaming platform to subscribers only.
P.S. The web gaming platform thing sounds like a good idea, but hopefully it actually works out for them. Remember the vaporware Master Toolkit demoed on the CD included in the first run of the 3.0 PHB?Last edited by jamroar; 2007-08-18 at 12:33 PM.
Moon-faced Assassin of Joy
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2007-08-18, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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