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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    ...and paragons take the lead, however in order to give everyone time to vote, how about I set up the next contest friday-ish?
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Sounds good to me.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Well, I have a race (or twelve ) that I'd like to see paragons for, so I have no problem with it.... Just hope someone doesn't steal what I'm thinking of doing
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Well, I have a race (or twelve ) that I'd like to see paragons for, so I have no problem with it.... Just hope someone doesn't steal what I'm thinking of doing
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    I prefer t2 over anything else, because t2 lets you become anything. I think Psionics is more versatile than magic.

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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    Illithid Savant rewrite
    Not Quite... Oh, it'll be interesting to see the paragon classes since they're usually 3 levels vs the 5+ the contest covers... Maybe waive it for this one?
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Not Quite... Oh, it'll be interesting to see the paragon classes since they're usually 3 levels vs the 5+ the contest covers... Maybe waive it for this one?
    I would say that would be a good idea. A paragon class that is longer than 3 levels could be interesting though, some sort of "super" paragon could work if they are 5 levels or longer
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    Yes, but immunity to wizard and resistance to fighter kinda makes up for it.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Maybe instead of paragons, make it race specific PrCs?
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    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Maybe instead of paragons, make it race specific PrCs?
    I'm going to second this, as my intended project has both .
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Maybe instead of paragons, make it race specific PrCs?

    I'm going to second this, as my intended project has both .
    porque no los dos?
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniikinis View Post
    porque no los dos?
    Technically you can have both as paragon classes are indeed racial
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Technically you can have both as paragon classes are indeed racial
    Technically you can't have both as paragon classes aren't race specific PrCs, they're race specific inglorious cluster-flubs which should never have existed and are neither base classes nor prestige classes. They allow you to start off at first level with them, and then advance spellcasting that you don't have if you take all the levels immediately, which is nonsensical but it's how it works. Paragons are stupid and racial PrCs, while bad (what if I wanted to have a human arcane archer? I can't, for no good reason? What next, only orcs can be assassins?) are nowhere near that bad.

    On that note, I vote in favour of literally anything else, and also in favour of not having hard restrictions in general. There's no point in having a "Best use of theme" category if no-one has any option but to follow the theme religiously.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Technically you can't have both as paragon classes aren't race specific PrCs, they're race specific inglorious cluster-flubs which should never have existed and are neither base classes nor prestige classes. They allow you to start off at first level with them, and then advance spellcasting that you don't have if you take all the levels immediately, which is nonsensical but it's how it works. Paragons are stupid and racial PrCs, while bad (what if I wanted to have a human arcane archer? I can't, for no good reason? What next, only orcs can be assassins?) are nowhere near that bad.

    On that note, I vote in favour of literally anything else, and also in favour of not having hard restrictions in general. There's no point in having a "Best use of theme" category if no-one has any option but to follow the theme religiously.
    Well besides "literally anything else" what would you suggest for theme? As the theme would have been "Best of Their Race" or some such, which does not necessarily straight jacket you into paragons but was what seemed to come to everyone's mind, while I meanwhile had a thought including quite a few things, not just paragon classes.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Honestly why wouldn't you just do it as paragon classes that are classic PRC. So arcane archer is strait out but something that make you a more elfy elf would be perfect. Think monster classes for PC races. Good example would be taking a drow and making a Drow Noble Class
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Well besides "literally anything else" what would you suggest for theme?
    Whichever of the options has most votes and isn't that one.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Whichever of the options has most votes and isn't that one.
    So I guess that's a vote for switch hitters.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Technically you can't have both as paragon classes aren't race specific PrCs, they're race specific inglorious cluster-flubs which should never have existed and are neither base classes nor prestige classes. They allow you to start off at first level with them, and then advance spellcasting that you don't have if you take all the levels immediately, which is nonsensical but it's how it works. Paragons are stupid and racial PrCs, while bad (what if I wanted to have a human arcane archer? I can't, for no good reason? What next, only orcs can be assassins?) are nowhere near that bad.

    On that note, I vote in favour of literally anything else, and also in favour of not having hard restrictions in general. There's no point in having a "Best use of theme" category if no-one has any option but to follow the theme religiously.
    I agree that paragons have some both mechanical and fluff issues. The idea of a racially specific PrC isn't crazy though. For example, if this ends up being the choice, I'm probably going to go with a PrC that involves an illumian's sigils. That's by nature a race specific PrC because it will heavily involve something that only a specific race has a feature. I agree that the restriction of Arcane Archer to elves wasn't good since there was no mechanical nor fluff reason to restrict it to them. but that doesn't mean that it is a bad idea in general to have race specific PrCs.
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    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Changing my vote to racial PrCs, this is more interesting and more options than paragon. I have some cool ideas for racial PrCs
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    Oh wadda you know Gary, you're just a baby.
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    Yes, but immunity to wizard and resistance to fighter kinda makes up for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Gary View Post
    Changing my vote to racial PrCs, this is more interesting and more options than paragon. I have some cool ideas for racial PrCs
    Well, now I don't think the old "best of their race" thing works out so well for the title, anyone have suggestions on what you'd call it?
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Well, now I don't think the old "best of their race" thing works out so well for the title, anyone have suggestions on what you'd call it?
    "Race to the top"?

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    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    I'd lean towards the third probably, so, are people good with racial PrC's?
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    I agree that paragons have some both mechanical and fluff issues. The idea of a racially specific PrC isn't crazy though. For example, if this ends up being the choice, I'm probably going to go with a PrC that involves an illumian's sigils. That's by nature a race specific PrC because it will heavily involve something that only a specific race has a feature. I agree that the restriction of Arcane Archer to elves wasn't good since there was no mechanical nor fluff reason to restrict it to them. but that doesn't mean that it is a bad idea in general to have race specific PrCs.
    The trouble with race-locked PrCs is that your character's race and class are both supposed to be meaningful character decisions. The reason I don't like putting too many restrictions on a prestige class at all is that each restriction removes the ability to take your build in a different direction - not only will your orc arcane archer never see the light of day, but neither will your 7th-level arcane archer with three feats which aren't the three listed.

    Having an illumian-locked PrC means that your PrC is never likely to see play at all, because it will only be a natural progression for a race that, in all honesty, I've never seen used to play anything other than single-classed paladins or truenamers (for the bonus to caster level and the bonus to INT skills, respectively - so much for illumians being the multiclassing race). Paladins and truenamers aren't known for their love of prestige classes (save for using SotAO to get abjurant champion on a paladin who isn't meant to be able to have it), so anyone who wants to enter your PrC will probably have wanted to enter your PrC from level 1.

    This brings up my main beef with PrCs in the first instance: if your character concept doesn't exist at first level then it doesn't exist at all. Why do I say that? Well, because technically, by the way that encounters work, you should be spending 13 of the damn things at first level. Ultimately, the assassin is fine because it takes a concept that the character already had at level 1 (I murder people sneakily) and builds on it (I have death attack which is more murderous and spells which make me more sneaky and/or more murderous), whereas the shadowdancer adds a bunch of weird shadowy stuff to a class that didn't really have anything to do with that beyond "Hide is a skill".

    Any race-based stuff that isn't a racial paragon, or heavens forbid a base class, pretty much has to run straight into that by definition, because there's always going to be a 5-level gap in your advancement - for your first 5 levels, your sigils were some +numbers and an ability which doesn't seem to have any possible power level other than "Useless" or "Literally sacred tradition or divine metamagic". This didn't change at second level and it didn't change at third or fourth or fifth until suddenly you're in a PrC. Whatever your first five levels were, they had very little to do with your sigils.

    What might be more interesting is to have a race based theme, but not actually make classes tied to a specific race. You could even have a class based around emulating a race other than your own, which IIRC Stoneblessed was (though of course it had racial requirements too).
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    What might be more interesting is to have a race based theme, but not actually make classes tied to a specific race. You could even have a class based around emulating a race other than your own, which IIRC Stoneblessed was (though of course it had racial requirements too).
    Hmm, that sounds fine by me, but I also think it should be up to popular vote, so I guess we'll see.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Hmm, that sounds fine by me, but I also think it should be up to popular vote, so I guess we'll see.
    It's that, or watch me come up with a clever way of making "You must be any race" sound like a real racial requirement.
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    It's that, or watch me come up with a clever way of making "You must be any race" sound like a real racial requirement.
    Hehe, that may also be interesting, especially if you do it in a creative manner
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    The trouble with race-locked PrCs is that your character's race and class are both supposed to be meaningful character decisions. The reason I don't like putting too many restrictions on a prestige class at all is that each restriction removes the ability to take your build in a different direction - not only will your orc arcane archer never see the light of day, but neither will your 7th-level arcane archer with three feats which aren't the three listed.

    Having an illumian-locked PrC means that your PrC is never likely to see play at all, because it will only be a natural progression for a race that, in all honesty, I've never seen used to play anything other than single-classed paladins or truenamers (for the bonus to caster level and the bonus to INT skills, respectively - so much for illumians being the multiclassing race). Paladins and truenamers aren't known for their love of prestige classes (save for using SotAO to get abjurant champion on a paladin who isn't meant to be able to have it), so anyone who wants to enter your PrC will probably have wanted to enter your PrC from level 1.

    This brings up my main beef with PrCs in the first instance: if your character concept doesn't exist at first level then it doesn't exist at all. Why do I say that? Well, because technically, by the way that encounters work, you should be spending 13 of the damn things at first level. Ultimately, the assassin is fine because it takes a concept that the character already had at level 1 (I murder people sneakily) and builds on it (I have death attack which is more murderous and spells which make me more sneaky and/or more murderous), whereas the shadowdancer adds a bunch of weird shadowy stuff to a class that didn't really have anything to do with that beyond "Hide is a skill".

    Any race-based stuff that isn't a racial paragon, or heavens forbid a base class, pretty much has to run straight into that by definition, because there's always going to be a 5-level gap in your advancement - for your first 5 levels, your sigils were some +numbers and an ability which doesn't seem to have any possible power level other than "Useless" or "Literally sacred tradition or divine metamagic". This didn't change at second level and it didn't change at third or fourth or fifth until suddenly you're in a PrC. Whatever your first five levels were, they had very little to do with your sigils.

    What might be more interesting is to have a race based theme, but not actually make classes tied to a specific race. You could even have a class based around emulating a race other than your own, which IIRC Stoneblessed was (though of course it had racial requirements too).
    I agree with much of this criticism. This gets in part to the problem that PrCs while an excellent mechanic, have a serious problem that they were designed in general with the expectation that one wasn't going to enter them before 6th level. Unfortunately, even homebrewers have generally kept this norm, which does lead to the problems of this sort. This is of course closely connected to the problem that most play is too low level to see most PrCs have their highest levels used. I consider the norm of not having PrCs start before 6th level to be one of the great design flaws of 3.5. Heck, this leads to an idea for what might be a fun contest in the future "Early entry" where the PrCs just need to be balanced and designed to have relatively early entry.

    (Also I'll cast a vote for the racial theme as the next contest.)
    My homebrew:

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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

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    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Sword and Sorcery put out a PRC you could qualify for at level 0, Felsworn, for the world of warcraft book. It basically allows you to become big scary demon. Its only requirement is "You made contact with fel energy some how." Weather hit with a fel spell, took a level in Arcanist(warlock), or just Do-si-doed with a succubus. It's really only worth like 2 levels for a beatstick but still great thing.
    Last edited by Lanth Sor; 2017-12-06 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Having an illumian-locked PrC means that your PrC is never likely to see play at all, because it will only be a natural progression for a race that, in all honesty, I've never seen used to play anything other than single-classed paladins or truenamers (for the bonus to caster level and the bonus to INT skills, respectively - so much for illumians being the multiclassing race). Paladins and truenamers aren't known for their love of prestige classes (save for using SotAO to get abjurant champion on a paladin who isn't meant to be able to have it), so anyone who wants to enter your PrC will probably have wanted to enter your PrC from level 1.
    I enjoyed my Illumian Rogue//Archivist. And, no, I was not using my sigils to boost Caster Level. Uurnaen lets you leave open 1st or 2nd lvl spell slots for a boost to sneak attack...

    I vote for a race related theme... If we can have the theme that allows for both classes tied to a specific race and classes based around emulating a race other than your own all the better.

  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Default Re: Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

    So, think I will actually go with Race to The Top as suggested for a title by JoshuaZ. Thus the topic will be a rather open ended "races" kind of thing, thus (hopefully) meeting some kind of middle ground.
    Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH Feel free to use it, I would love to hear how it went!

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    Prestige Class Contest 3.X, Race to the Top

    Chat Thread || Voting Thread

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