OOTS #1102 - The Discussion Thread

[drazen]

Did Vaarsuvius (or Belkar, for that matter) ever buy the Dimension Door boots in Tinkertown?

If so, then V can Dimension Door back towards the temple entrance, Fireball the vamps from behind (probably by surprise), and dismiss the cage. We just saw Laurin D-Door out of a Forcecage at the end of BRitF.

Only problem is V would have to make sure to get *all* the vamps in one or two shots.

[RblDiver]

Thor's Ding-a-ling? But...but...it's Thor's Nuts!

[Shining Wrath]

Thor's Ding-a-ling? But...but...it's Thor's Nuts!

Clearly this comic is getting longer.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Confirmation that Vaarsuvius is 16th level—that’s always cool. I imagine that since the Order has negated the surprise of the attack fighting off the vampires won’t be as tricky—they just can’t let the vampires touch them.

[Keltest]

Please remember Rich has said that he specifically does not optimize this comic.

You know, I really hate this as an excuse for a character not taking a particular obvious action. Optimization is just saying "I want to be good at this thing" so saying that a character "doesn't optimize" as an excuse for not having such and such spell/ability/item that would help them do what they want to do is like saying they were making it harder for themselves on purpose.

[Rogan]

You know, I really hate this as an excuse for a character not taking a particular obvious action. Optimization is just saying "I want to be good at this thing" so saying that a character "doesn't optimize" as an excuse for not having such and such spell/ability/item that would help them do what they want to do is like saying they were making it harder for themselves on purpose.

Wrong.
Optimization is by the very name: "I want to have the BEST soloution for this problem. Good won't do it!"

[Kish]

I do not think "prepare Protection from Evil/Magic Circle vs. Evil and don't prepare Mind Blank" is an "obvious action."

Very rarely do I think the actions people are freaking out about the Order not taking are actually obvious ones, in fact, unless the fact that that Order member is being (and is) comically maladroit is the point.

[Shining Wrath]

You know, I really hate this as an excuse for a character not taking a particular obvious action. Optimization is just saying "I want to be good at this thing" so saying that a character "doesn't optimize" as an excuse for not having such and such spell/ability/item that would help them do what they want to do is like saying they were making it harder for themselves on purpose.

Obvious to who? Speaking as someone who has spent 4+ hours working out a 3.5 character build, searching through online compendiums of information to save me from having to drag my 20+ source books out at the same time, bouncing ideas off of friends - there is absolutely nothing at all obvious about 3.5 optimization. And if you have an idea for a character that, say, requires a wizard to forgo the conjuration class because of the story you want to tell with that character, that can make "optimal" a delusion.

If you imagine a character as having to make choices on the fly while creatures out of a nightmare attempt to eat their faces and then devour their souls, "it seemed like a good idea at the time" can beat the Nine Hells and the Abyss out of "optimization".

[Keltest]

Wrong.
Optimization is by the very name: "I want to have the BEST soloution for this problem. Good won't do it!"

That's a largely semantic argument that does nothing to address the greater point of "saying they aren't optimizing means they aren't trying to address the problem at all".

To say nothing of the fact that its blatantly untrue. Elan is optimizing for party support. V is optimized for blasting. Haley is optimized to be a city thief and party face.

That they are not power gaming does not mean they aren't optimizing, and it doesn't make things like protection from evil being a readily available 1st level spell that V can prepare more than twice go away.

[denthor]

You know, I really hate this as an excuse for a character not taking a particular obvious action. Optimization is just saying "I want to be good at this thing" so saying that a character "doesn't optimize" as an excuse for not having such and such spell/ability/item that would help them do what they want to do is like saying they were making it harder for themselves on purpose.

Just some questions.

Have you ever made a 1st level character? Then ran said character to 10th? I have and feats, skills different decisions were made based on what I expected not cookie cutter this character will always have this at this level because it is the best thing always.

You would be very surprised at some of the odd choices made in a rational thought out character.
Verus what is made in a character that is created right out of the box at 10th.

I have known people that will not run a mage until that mage can start at 7th because and I quote "I am a superior player. I should not have to start with a disadvantage."

[Chei]

You know, I really hate this as an excuse for a character not taking a particular obvious action. Optimization is just saying "I want to be good at this thing" so saying that a character "doesn't optimize" as an excuse for not having such and such spell/ability/item that would help them do what they want to do is like saying they were making it harder for themselves on purpose.

That reasoning does start to feel unsatisfying after a while.

How about the excuse that V has historically preferred overkill to judicious force, no matter how much they have tried to improve that tendency? How about the fact that they only recently began to care about Good and Evil and so have never added Good/Evil aligned spells to their spellbook? We know every spell V has ever cast or suggested that they could cast. V is more the type to cast Dominate Person than Protection From Evil.

[Castamir]

And why is the wound Roy inflicts red?

Wounds get their color from whatever liquid is inside (as it immediately oozes out). Most undead either have no blood or have it thoroughly spoiled (brown/black), but vampires are all about fresh blood.

In certain vampire stories of old (like Jory) the amount of blood inside can be... extensive.

---

Also, note that the party has at least one ring of Protection of Evil.

[Keltest]

Just some questions.

Have you ever made a 1st level character? Then ran said character to 10th? I have and feats, skills different decisions were made based on what I expected not cookie cutter this character will always have this at this level because it is the best thing always.

You would be very surprised at some of the odd choices made in a rational thought out character.
Verus what is made in a character that is created right out of the box at 10th.

I have known people that will not run a mage until that mage can start at 7th because and I quote "I am a superior player. I should not have to start with a disadvantage."

Yes, I have. And you know what? I stand by my point. They've had hours in character to prepare for this fight, so when someone asks "why didn't V prepare this handy spell that suppresses mind control when they are specifically trying to do just that?" I am going to want a better answer then "because V isn't optimal".

I would even accept something like "V doesn't keep that spell in their travel book because Durkon can typically prepare it." which is at least something a real person would do.

[Chei]

Wounds get their color from whatever liquid is inside (as it immediately oozes out). Most undead either have no blood or have it thoroughly spoiled (brown/black), but vampires are all about fresh blood.

In certain vampire stories of old (like Jory) the amount of blood inside can be... extensive.

---

Also, note that the party has at least one ring of Protection of Evil.

We've seen vampires get hurt before. They bleed purple.

I only know Jory from Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup, and he explodes blood in that game.

[zimmerwald1915]

I would even accept something like "V doesn't keep that spell in their travel book because Durkon can typically prepare it." which is at least something a real person would do.

And now that you've thought of this, why go to the trouble of leading forum posters to providing something along the same lines? I mean, if it satisfies you?

[Keltest]

And now that you've thought of this, why go to the trouble of leading forum posters to providing something along the same lines? I mean, if it satisfies you?

Because people will give the "theyre not optimized" answer for just about every "why don't they do X" question under the sun, and they will very frequently have a harder answer than this particular one.

In this case, I'm also bothered because speculating about possible reasons is so easy.

[SlashDash]

Confirmation that Vaarsuvius is 16th level—that’s always cool. I imagine that since the Order has negated the surprise of the attack fighting off the vampires won’t be as tricky—they just can’t let the vampires touch them.

You mean 17, right?
It's 2 hours per level

34 / 2 = 17


Oops... Nevermind... Forgot the Ioun Stone. You're correct, it's 16

[Sebastian]

Did Vaarsuvius (or Belkar, for that matter) ever buy the Dimension Door boots in Tinkertown?

If so, then V can Dimension Door back towards the temple entrance, Fireball the vamps from behind (probably by surprise), and dismiss the cage. We just saw Laurin D-Door out of a Forcecage at the end of BRitF.

Only problem is V would have to make sure to get *all* the vamps in one or two shots.

I don't think he/she did it.

wrong color

[Rogan]

You mean 17, right?
It's 2 hours per level

34 / 2 = 17

And V got the benefits of Blackwings shining bouble. So it is 16+1

[Giggling Ghast]

In certain vampire stories of old (like Jory) the amount of blood inside can be... extensive.

SHE'S DEAD ENOUGH!

[KorvinStarmast]

I have known people that will not run a mage until that mage can start at 7th because and I quote "I am a superior player. I should not have to start with a disadvantage."

FWIW, the way D&D 5e is made (our group is into sharing DM duties) my dungeon/campaign starts at 2d or 3rd level, since level 1 is meant to be introductory. I can understand why people want to start at higher levels if they've played a lot.

As to protection versus good/evil: V knows they are going into a Vampire fight. I'd be surprised if V, being intelligent, didn't prepare that spell, given that they had not yet met the clerics and Durkon had been gone from the party for a few days already ....

[Rogar Demonblud]

Because people will give the "theyre not optimized" answer for just about every "why don't they do X" question under the sun, and they will very frequently have a harder answer than this particular one.

In this case, I'm also bothered because speculating about possible reasons is so easy.

Let's also not forget that the spell load out is determined by what you expect to face. So when you're thrown a curve (like a hallway full of vampire spawn), you have to decide if you're going to burn that easily dispelled low-level spell now or later.

[PcJunky]

And V got the benefits of Blackwings shining bouble. So it is 16+1

Actually, 2 hours, according to d20 SRD. This appears to confirm as Level-17 wizard (edit: actually 16, due to Ioun stone).

Whoa: Spell component "ruby dust worth 1500gp". As someone who played mostly low-level adventures I forgot how much wealth an adventure party of their level literally throws around.

As far as I can see the Ioun Stone is not there. Those things have to be out to have an effect. In my opinion V was lvl 17 when casting the spell and is now lvl 15 for getting hit by a vampires energy drain.

As for the lost spell. V may have lost his lvl 9 spell (and not say a thing, because it is not important right now) or his other Mind Blank if he really was lvl 16 from the start (might be crucial to the plan so essential to point out soon).

[Rogar Demonblud]

When they were in Tinker Town an artificer converted Blackwing's Ioun Stone into an anklet. Explicitly so Rich wouldn't have to keep drawing it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As far as I can see the Ioun Stone is not there.

You can clearly see the ioun in the first panel, rendering the rest of your logic invalid.

GW

[ellindsey]

As far as I can see the Ioun Stone is not there. Those things have to be out to have an effect. In my opinion V was lvl 17 when casting the spell and is now lvl 15 for getting hit by a vampires energy drain.

Re-read this comic:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html

[Douglas]

When they were in Tinker Town an artificer converted Blackwing's Ioun Stone into an anklet. Explicitly so Rich wouldn't have to keep drawing it.

And if you look closely, it's visible on Blackwing's ankle in this comic in each panel where Blackwing is shown.

[LunarDrop]

Actually, now that I'm rereading it, all I can think about is Edna Mode's "NO CAPES" line.

"Vaarsuvius- eaten by vampires.

NO CAPES"

[JumboWheat01]

Nothing like striking a "Let's Get Dangerous!" pose and having it all go to waste.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And if you look closely, it's visible on Blackwing's ankle in this comic in each panel where Blackwing is shown.

Except in his second panel (third overall). Hard to tell if it was drawn there, between the cage and the perspective making Blackwing smaller.

GW