OOTS #1102 - The Discussion Thread

[Annon]

FWIW, the way D&D 5e is made (our group is into sharing DM duties) my dungeon/campaign starts at 2d or 3rd level, since level 1 is meant to be introductory. I can understand why people want to start at higher levels if they've played a lot.

As to protection versus good/evil: V knows they are going into a Vampire fight. I'd be surprised if V, being intelligent, didn't prepare that spell, given that they had not yet met the clerics and Durkon had been gone from the party for a few days already ....

Gotta be in their spellbook first, which isn't going to happen unless they get access to a scroll or spellbook to copy from, or they choose it at level-up.

[Fyraltari]

Wait, invisible?
But that has interesting implications on earlier fights, if Giant followed rules...
Imagine V just PRETENDING to cast Forcecage or Resilient Sphere on Laurin, while expending some useless cantrip to force a dweomer to appear... and then Lauring has to waste mana escaping a cage that IS NOT THERE!

This move is supported by the Rincewind School of Avoiding Magical Combat.

[Lord Raziere]

Wow, 34 hours. Either V dismisses it, or they wait too long. They'll have to plan it out.

problem is, how can durkon stall vampire durkon for thirty four hours? will they be there for twenty four hours?

and I don't really care if the party isn't optimized. imagine if they were! it'd be a really boring and short comic. "Hi Xykon we're all wizards, we all grinded to level 20 before even meeting you. time to die. now lets work on fixing Lirian's gate with our optimized wizard powers, should be done by twelve, isn't that right Wise Belkar the Green?"
"I concur, Archwizard Roy The Blue, and afterwards let us have tea and biscuits in the afternoon while watching Scry TV for a lark."

[zimmerwald1915]

Except in his second panel (third overall). Hard to tell if it was drawn there, between the cage and the perspective making Blackwing smaller.

GW

If you zoom in real close it's visible as a patch of yellower orange above Black wing's right talon, even in that panel.

[Stabbey]

Mind Blank also notably has a 24hr duration, so it can safely be used at the start of the day and forgotten about. Theoretically this means that V already used both casts to protect the party, and didn't lose one of them.

Indeed, strip #1091 specifically notes that V was going to save deciding who to cast it on until after seeing what help the clerics of Thor could provide. Not that V was going to save casting it until engaging the enemy. They encountered the clerics, prepared and headed out, so it's quite possible that V cast the second Mind Blank already. The only thing I'm not sure about is what happens if the highest-tier spells have already been cast.

I guess a vampire's level drain always loses an uncast spell of the highest level, regardless of how many slots the wizard has?

[Wysper]

Given that I don't think Minrah's blow was very effective (although it did make the vampire let go of V), I'm taking it as established that Roy can one-shot these vampires. And he'll get 3 attacks per round, unless he enters Green Hulk mode which might conceivably enhance that.

Come to think of it, this would be a wonderful time for the sword to manifest an area attack of some sort. Or, possibly, the ability to restore levels for others as we've seen it do for Roy. Since we've already established that the sword can heal Roy's level loss, I don't want to hear anyone saying "Deus Ex Machina" if it can help V out, as well.

Don't forget that Roy has Cleave and Great Cleave (I'm pretty sure). If he can one shot, he can open up a highway to hell.

[grandpheonix]

Waiting for Roy to break out his great cleavage!

[Chei]

They encountered the clerics, prepared and headed out, so it's quite possible that V cast the second Mind Blank already. The only thing I'm not sure about is what happens if the highest-tier spells have already been cast.
I guess a vampire's level drain always loses an uncast spell of the highest level, regardless of how many slots the wizard has?

I pretty much agree that V could have cast the second Mind Blank. I'd like to have seen it, but all good.

All negative levels remove the highest spell slot remaining to the caster. If V is out of 8th-level spells, it will take a 7th-level. That said, V has a bonus spell slot at 8th-level due to being an evocation specialist. If V has cast their second Mind Blank, then they have almost certainly lost their bonus evocation spell.

[Trillium]

Don't forget that Roy has Cleave and Great Cleave (I'm pretty sure). If he can one shot, he can open up a highway to hell.

Roy has boobies!

Also, if he can one-shot them, it can be prudent to disable a few of these vampires and carry them all the way to Durkula (Bugsby's Leech-Lugging Hand or something), since Durkula has high AC and may have buffed it even higher. You know, like old trick with Cleave and bag of rats, but with soulless blooddrinking abominations and more green fire.

[grandpheonix]

I'm sorry, enlarge person + great cleave.

[ti'esar]

I like how Belkar and his cat are the only ones without a expression in the first panel.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Now the only damages that the Order can do the vampires are emotional damage and hearing damage.

Elan, you're up.

[ericgrau]

They're low level creatures. I'm confused why V didn't just smoke them all with a chain lightning. Even with electricity resistance it's likely to one shot most of them. Depending on level even those who roll super lucky on their save might still die from half damage.

Ok maybe he didn't get one of the best damage evocations, only has empowered fireball or some other such area spell. He could still 1 shot half of them. Or forcecage half of them.

Or maybe he just panicked and said "save me my magic". And now they have time to plan. Spells need line of effect but they could still buff and so on.

[JumboWheat01]

They're low level creatures. I'm confused why V didn't just smoke them all with a chain lightning. Even with electricity resistance it's likely to one shot most of them. Depending on level even those who roll super lucky on their save might still die from half damage.

Ok maybe he didn't get one of the best damage evocations, only has empowered fireball or some other such area spell. He could still 1 shot half of them. Or forcecage half of them.

Or maybe he just panicked and said "save me my magic". And now they have time to plan. Spells need line of effect but they could still buff and so on.

V's character development has been more about using magic supportively and conservingly instead of just blasting everything else before the party even gets a chance. Of course, threats to one's sanity are still threats.

[danielxcutter]

Also, throwing AoE damage into a melee isn't that wise, since it hits your allies as well. Not to mention that V mentioned specifically not preparing cold and electricity evocations as vampires have resistance to both.

[JoeyTheNeko]

er, is it not dismissable?

[Toper]

They're low level creatures. I'm confused why V didn't just smoke them all with a chain lightning.

V didn't prepare any electricity spells due to vampiric resistances. The Order wasn't expecting to fight lots of weaker vampires anyway.

[Kareasint]

Also, throwing AoE damage into a melee isn't that wise, since it hits your allies as well. Not to mention that V mentioned specifically not preparing cold and electricity evocations as vampires have resistance to both.

Hence, no Chain Lightning. I would be interested to see if Daylight (3rd level Evocation) has an effect.

[Canisius]

What does Mr. Scruffy's buff do? In regard to vampires?

[Kish]

Very little; it can make Mr. Scruffy's claws and teeth count as magic, but they still won't count as silver.

[Ruck]

I think reading the strip as indicating that Vaarsuvius can't dismiss the Forcecage is premature.

Yeah, while I can accept that it hasn't happened for the purpose of the punchline, I think "Vaarsuvius won't or can't dismiss the forcecage" is not nearly as likely as "Vaarsuvius isn't going to dismiss the forcecage until the Order figures out what to do next."

[Chei]

Very little; it can make Mr. Scruffy's claws and teeth count as magic, but they still won't count as silver.

Well, Argent had silver fangs due to Shojo's negligence. Maybe Mr. Scruffy's packing silver too...

[Psychronia]

...Well, crap.
On the bright side, I'm still digging the quality of the art upgrade. It's great stuff.

I would personally prefer to know about the 34 hours than not, if I really think about it. I can't even tell how much time the Order has to spare.

[ericgrau]

V didn't prepare any electricity spells due to vampiric resistances. The Order wasn't expecting to fight lots of weaker vampires anyway.

Even with electricity resistance it's likely to one shot most of them.

So I guess then the question was why V didn't prepare any anyway. Vampire spawn have electricity resistance 10. Greg has electricity resistance 10. It's only 10. Out of 17d6. And it's not like the evoker hasn't dealt with resistance before. You just hit harder, you don't switch types until actual immunity. Especially when core alternate energy types do so much less damage. Far more than 10 less. I don't see the party picking up silver magic weapons just because vamps are resistant to other weapons. After all their main weapons are still much better. That would be crazy.

Or fine, just fireball the 1/3-1/2 that you can get without hitting allies and one shot 1/3-1/2 of the entire challenge that way. Or forcecage them. Or I guess we'll see next strip. I doubt they plan on waiting them out. They'll probably buff and blast with whatever she does have in a second. That's actually stronger to prep then fireball instead of fireballing right away. That actually makes sense (plus, eep, danger, must get safe!). I'm more amazed that V thinks resistance is worth considering when she's 16th level.

I'm guessing that either (a) The Giant didn't look at the alternative damage options (i.e., nothing good) which V would see but The Giant doesn't bother looking at until it's time to cast or more likely (b) She has a fireball or 3 prepared, sure, but went with non-damage spells for others. Especially support spells and non-damage/only-partially-damage evocations.

Hence, no Chain Lightning. I would be interested to see if Daylight (3rd level Evocation) has an effect.

None whatsoever. It's a bit of a misnomer. I kinda wonder if they'll try anyway, but I think they know better. Unlike the low level clerics. Sunburst would do the trick except for the part where it blinds any allies who might be caught in it. Perhaps they'll cover their eyes first? Only drawback there is that it would be nicer to save it for Greg & co.

[danielxcutter]

So I guess then the question was why V didn't prepare any anyway. Vampire spawn have electricity resistance 10. Greg has electricity resistance 10. It's only 10. Out of 17d6. And it's not like the evoker hasn't dealt with resistance before. You just hit harder, you don't switch types until actual immunity; especially when core alternate types do so much less damage. Far more than 10 less. I don't see the party picking up silver weapons because vamps are resistant to other weapons; after all their main weapons are still much better. That would be crazy.

Or fine, just fireball the half that aren't in melee and one shot half of the entire challenge that way. Or forcecage them. Or I guess we'll see next strip. I doubt they plan on waiting them out. They'll probably buff and blast with whatever she does have in a second. That's actually stronger to prep then fireball instead of fireballing right away. That make sense. I'm more amazed that V thinks resistance is worth considering when she's 16th level.

It's not that blasting spells are completely useless, it's that V planned only for the four elite vampire clerics, and didn't expect the spawn horde at all. That means V would not have prepared many spells suited for combating a horde of spawn, if at all. Chain Lightning is excellent for this situation, yes, but against only four vampires it's not really a great choice for a 6th-level spell slot, thus V would not have thought to prepare it.

Also, vampire spawn drain a level if their attack hits, no save. If V used her action to blast half of the spawn to ashes, the other half would swarm the frontliners and drain a bunch of their levels. You yourself said that it's better to buff THEN fireball the spawn horde.

[ericgrau]

It's not that blasting spells are completely useless, it's that V planned only for the four elite vampire clerics, and didn't expect the spawn horde at all. That means V would not have prepared many spells suited for combating a horde of spawn, if at all. Chain Lightning is excellent for this situation, yes, but against only four vampires it's not really a great choice for a 6th-level spell slot, thus V would not have thought to prepare it.

Also, vampire spawn drain a level if their attack hits, no save. If V used her action to blast half of the spawn to ashes, the other half would swarm the frontliners and drain a bunch of their levels. You yourself said that it's better to buff THEN fireball the spawn horde.

Even better to buff and then chain lightning them. The forcecage panic save actually makes perfect sense. It's the damage spell selection that seems so ultra wonky if you look at it for even a few moments (but perhaps that never happened, or perhaps V prepped less damage). Chain lightning is still far better than fireball against 4 targets. Far more damage even after resistance, and no allies get hit so you can always blast all 4 instead of 1 or 2. Even compared to empowered fireball it's about equal damage after resistance and no allies get hit.

[danielxcutter]

Even better to buff and then chain lightning them. Chain lightning is still far better than fireball against 4 targets. Far more damage even after resistance, and no allies get hit so you can always blast all 4. Even compared to empowered fireball it's about equal damage after resistance and no allies get hit.

Perhaps. But I just thought of something - they still have to fight the four vampire clerics after this. What if V only prepared spells for blasting them? Chain Lightning is better than Empowered Fireball, I guess, but Delayed Blast Fireball and Sunburst are even better. So V might only have prepared a relatively few number of high-level blasting spells, and the lower-level slots were reserved for buffs and that stuff.

[ericgrau]

That's likely I think. A little uncharacteristic but call it part of the shift towards more support. Even if it wasn't planned in advance once the Giant looks at mid level spells it'll be either a big pile of nothing, shout for 5d6 or a non-damage spell. Non-damage it is.

[danielxcutter]

That's likely I think. A little uncharacteristic but call it part of the shift towards more support. Even if it wasn't planned in advance once the Giant looks at mid level spells it'll be either a big pile of nothing, shout for 5d6 or a non-damage spell. Non-damage it is.

Yeah, V probably prepared just enough blasting spells for the vamp clerics. Wasting said spells on the horde would be a bad idea considering that's likely the literal reason Undurkon set this ambush up.

[ericgrau]

Chain lightning is still the better choice over delayed blast fireball though. Not hitting allies is handy, and 10 damage less is no big loss. Delaying the fireball without access to time stop has limited applications. Chain lightning would be better than sunburst too against anything except vampires. Oh well.