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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Derailuer View Post
    Also, at the bottom of this page (sorry i don't know how to do the code) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html we see Jillian walking away from an opportunity to make it with ansom.
    When you're composing a post, you should see a little icon just above the text window that looks like a tiny globe with a couple links of chain just below it. Highlight the text you want to link, click on that icon, and enter the URL in the popup box.

    Or, you could hand-enter it like so:

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    As far as the subject at hand goes, I'd say that we have rather definitive evidence that Jillian is emotionally bonded to Wanda. There is a strong erotic overtone to it all -- that could imply a BDSM sexual relationship, or it could just be one of Wanda's head games. (In the latter case, whether Wanda's use of sex appeal turns Jillian on or creeps her out hardly matters; either way, she's a bit more off balance.)

    It's... complex (and given how many posts I've made on the subject, that clearly isn't a circumlocution for "I don't want to talk about it. )
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-08-16 at 02:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    While this would explain a lot, they don't look similar at all. Skin colour, hair colour, eye colour, eye form, it's all different for these two. I think if they were supposed to be sisters, they would share at least some visual aspects...
    Not necessarily. Actually, Parson says that Wanda does not go into her history. While they don't have childhoods per se, they could still be families and sisters. Maybe they 'popped' into existence together. Otherwise why would there be different 'tribes'?

    I think Zamussels, who claims to be part of no tribe is actually a Croatan, just like Wanda. They're family.

    Oh, and their faces DO share a similar shape, as do their bodytypes. Their eye and hair colors are different, but so what? Like you said, this is not like real world genetics. They freaking 'pop' into existence. Why should they pop with the same genes? It's not like she and Ansom are related... they share the same color eyes and hair.
    Last edited by ConfirmME; 2007-08-16 at 02:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    WOOT! Hesitation for the win.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathQuaker View Post
    And now comments to just Surfing Half-Orc

    Jillian is likely to be bi because she clearly has feelings for Wanda as well as Ansom. Being attracted to a girl and a guy generally indicates bisexuality.

    Bisexuality has absolutely nothing to do with submissiveness. Submissiveness is a trait found among a lot of gays and straights, and dominance is a trait found among many bisexuals... and of course, most folks, regardless of orientation, don't have strong leanings towards either.

    Now you're putting words into my mouth. I have friends, male and female alike, who are bi, and into "The Scene." My statement was not meant to be the "end all and be all," : it was my direct observations. Hawaii isn't San Fransisco isn't New York isn't Chicago. Most of the bi women (all three) I knew in Hawaii who were Dominant were mostly girl/girl, while the submissive women were boy/girl at about 50% to each.


    This statement is also flawed--there's no indication of what Wanda's sexuality is, beyond that she has at least some fondness for Jillian. She also does seduce Stanley, and I doubt she's attracted to him, but she appears to know what she's doing when she seduces him, indicating sexual experience with men. This itself doesn't mean anything except that she's good at using other people's lust and love to manipulate people... and it's possible that that is all is in Wanda's head. She may not be particularly "any"-sexual at all. Otherwise, I'd say she's also bisexual, but even that's a guess. There's just no evidence one way or another.
    The Kiss is clearly MORE than "fondness." A closed mouth kiss can be love, or just friendship. An open mouth kiss is usually a sign of much more. To me, there is no doubt that Wanda and Jillian are bi, and deeply in love. Jillian is also conflicted, since she loves both Wanda and Ansom, but can't support one without betraying the other.

    Whether Wanda enjoyed her time with Stanley, or just did it to keep him from disbanding Parson, is as impossible to determine as which room has the Lady, and which has the Tiger. At least at this point in time.
    Last edited by Surfing HalfOrc; 2007-08-16 at 04:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Now you're putting words into my mouth. I have friends, male and female alike, who are bi, and into "The Scene." My statement was not meant to be the "end all and be all," : it was my direct observations. Hawaii isn't San Fransisco isn't New York isn't Chicago. Most of the bi women (all three) I knew in Hawaii who were Dominant were mostly girl/girl, while the submissive women were boy/girl at about 50% to each.
    You said

    since Jillian is the submissive, she is (slightly) more likely to be bi
    And I said

    Bisexuality has absolutely nothing to do with submissiveness
    .

    I had no intention of putting words into your mouth. I read your sentence as saying "someone who is submissive is more likely to be bisexual," and I consider that statement to be incorrect. I apologize if I misinterpreted you, but how else am I supposed to interpret that sentence?

    Also, 3+ people you know personally does not a reliable statistical sample make.

    The Kiss is clearly MORE than "fondness." A closed mouth kiss can be love, or just friendship.
    Sorry, if I was unclear there. I do not debate at all the fact that Wanda and Jillian are in some kind of intimate/romantic/sexual relationship with each other, and I agree with you that the kiss is proof of that.

    The reason why I chose "fond" in terms of Wanda's feelings is because I am otherwise not sure if Wanda is definitely in love with Jillian, or if she likes her more in a general sense but is only using her sexually (much as she used Stanley sexually).

    To me, there is no doubt that Wanda and Jillian are bi
    Then why did you say before that

    Wanda, OTOH, plays only for the girl's softball league
    if "there is no doubt" that Wanda is bi?
    Last edited by DeathQuaker; 2007-08-16 at 04:45 PM. Reason: missed a tag

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    ^Has this ever been a point of contention? If it's not cut-and-dry, you're pretty unobservant.

    This continues on in the style of the last comic, and introdices little new blood into the water for speculation.

    However, Wanda is taking a bit of a step out there with her assertion, since it will introduce a pretty awkward dynamic in the group knowing that Jillian loves Wanda, even if no emotion is suspected on Wanda's part by the rest of Team Stanley.

    A brilliant line is 'She hates me?' It reveals so much about Stanley's character in three little words! Yes, she's a violent enemy combatant that has been captured and tortured numerous times, and probably wounded in battle as many times, all because of Stanley's 'crusade' and the look on his face coupled with the line is simply golden in its revelation of such conceit and ignorance on that part of Stanley, as he's obviously never considered that she might be a bit miffed at him. And, of course, the childish punchline, "Well I hate her too," is so not only extremely childish but shows that this ridiculous slight to his ego has made him completely forget the crisis at hand.

    Character development is often most effective in small things, a concept of which the Erf crew definitely seems to grasp.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Arameus View Post
    A brilliant line is 'She hates me?' It reveals so much about Stanley's character in three little words! Yes, she's a violent enemy combatant that has been captured and tortured numerous times, and probably wounded in battle as many times, all because of Stanley's 'crusade' and the look on his face coupled with the line is simply golden in its revelation of such conceit and ignorance on that part of Stanley, as he's obviously never considered that she might be a bit miffed at him. And, of course, the childish punchline, "Well I hate her too," is so not only extremely childish but shows that this ridiculous slight to his ego has made him completely forget the crisis at hand.
    Excellent analysis. All of which is why I think this is the first time that Stanley has actually made me laugh. The punch line is brilliant, the character has suddenly become almost likable in his pathetic egotism.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Arameus View Post
    Wanda is taking a bit of a step out there with her assertion, since it will introduce a pretty awkward dynamic in the group knowing that Jillian loves Wanda, even if no emotion is suspected on Wanda's part by the rest of Team Stanley.
    What's love got to do with it? It's not unreasonable to assume that a spell caster would invoke a "don't harm me" directive. Remember, all the action we saw was off-screen for everyone else. All the outside knows about was "her screams for mercy".

    A brilliant line is 'She hates me?' It reveals so much about Stanley's character in three little words!
    Yup!
    Last edited by rosebud; 2007-08-16 at 05:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    "Well I hate her too."

    Fantastic!
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Is it just me, or is Stanley starting to act towards Wanda the way he previously acted towards Parson? I almost get the feeling that Parson's stock is rising, and Wanda's is falling. Could Parson be replacing Wanda in Stanley's estimation? He has not a word of condemnation for Parson, yet he is all over Wanda. Just something to think about. That could really change the dynamics of the situation.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by ConfirmME View Post
    I'm going to make a stab at what I think the big secret is....

    I've been thinking this ever since Zamussels was first being interrogated.

    I think Wanda and Zamussels are sisters. That's why she'll never turn on Wanda. That's why they were so 'sociable'. That's why Zamussels hates Stanley and is in the war in the first place. That's why Wanda knows that Zamussels is a royal. They're both royals from the so-called-extinct Croatan tribe. One became a barbarian, the other became a Croakamancer.

    I don't know why else she would NEVER betray Wanda, since in any other case, she'd hate her as much as she hates Stanley after being tortured by Wanda.

    Well your very correct IMO, I stated nearly the same thing about 20 pages ago that most disregarded (or reserved in thought) until now, however this page makes it visible to all and it is indeed "love" (not sexual) that fuels both ends of this an "extinct tribe" can not produce new units without 2 things 1) a town and 2) a chief warlord (male) presumably to start over. Therefore they have to go with which ever "tribe" that adopts them or they too will become extinct.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by djharr View Post
    Is it just me, or is Stanley starting to act towards Wanda the way he previously acted towards Parson? I almost get the feeling that Parson's stock is rising, and Wanda's is falling. Could Parson be replacing Wanda in Stanley's estimation? He has not a word of condemnation for Parson, yet he is all over Wanda. Just something to think about. That could really change the dynamics of the situation.
    It's not exactly unprecedented (Stanley did get rather truculent with Wanda during the initial "summon the Perfect Warlord" pitch meeting), but I think you may be on to something.

    Of course, if Jillian does move on by, Wanda will be vindicated... unless Jillian ends up returning with Ansom & Company.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-08-16 at 07:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    ... who was brainwashed the moment Wanda left so that he heard 'only screams for mercy'.


    She looks a little too comfy in Wanda's arms to be considered 'sisterly'. That, dear boy, is a look of rapturous love.

    While the kiss isn't visible, it's heavily implied. A shot of Jillians and Wanda's lips almost touching, then a cut-off for the Dragon Screen?
    Well flying on a dwagon who is NOT YOUR ALLY and fall to your death would also classify the "dreamy" look as the spell takes effect not "a Rapturous love" you mention, sorry no dice here.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by djharr View Post
    Is it just me, or is Stanley starting to act towards Wanda the way he previously acted towards Parson? I almost get the feeling that Parson's stock is rising, and Wanda's is falling. Could Parson be replacing Wanda in Stanley's estimation? He has not a word of condemnation for Parson, yet he is all over Wanda. Just something to think about. That could really change the dynamics of the situation.
    It's an interesting idea... although the beginning of the story indicates Wanda and Stanley can and will argue and not see eye to eye... it takes a lot for Stanley to accept Wanda's initial plan... he also was pretty ticked with her when Parson was first summoned (something about not wanting to summon a "Giant potato man" as I recall).

    But Parson's stock IS certainly rising, as he is proving himself to be a capable war leader. Whatever happens in the group dynamic, it will be interesting.

    Also, I wanted to take a moment to agree with the hordes that loved the "she hates me?" moment. Forgot to mention it the first time I posted... too intent on nitpicking.
    Last edited by DeathQuaker; 2007-08-16 at 09:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Quimper View Post
    I agree on the

    "Parson's suddenly realised it's not just a game. People have feelings/soul"
    On second thought, this idea seems more credible than at first glance, now that I recall Parson's reaction to Misty (both initially and when Sizemore described her integration into the Trimancer).

    Misty probably should have occurred to me sooner; I wrote a filk about her, after all.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by kreszantas View Post
    Well flying on a dwagon who is NOT YOUR ALLY and fall to your death would also classify the "dreamy" look as the spell takes effect not "a Rapturous love" you mention, sorry no dice here.
    ... you make my head hurt.

    Whether it's genuine emotion or induced by the spell, Jillian is -flat out in love- with Wanda.

    I also find it telling that, when they land, Jillian is SO DREAMY from the 'experience' of flying on an enemy dragon, with an enemy spellcaster, that she willingly sinks into a full-on liplock. Not a 'see you later, sis' kiss, not a 'thank god that's over' kiss... it's an "I love you with all my heart" kiss.

    ... buuttt, whatever.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by rosebud View Post
    They can always withdraw the remaining forces before the battle completes. 61% is just the chance of Stanley's troops getting completely wiped out. For all we know, there could be a 99% chance of the three warlords getting recroaked while still allowing the archons and Jillian to retreat to Ansom's stack. Or ... not. Also, neither Jillian nor Ansom seem to be the cautious type.
    It is not clear that Jillian is aware of this part of Ansom's plan. He was relying on the arkenpliers for this and she doesn't have them. Actually it isn't clear if she was ordered to attack them or just find them and then report, which would make more sense, but then again Ansom couldn't count on the dwagons avoiding combat, so he ought to have told her to take out the warlords if it came to that, but should also have told her to try to pick him up so that he could join the fight. It seems that there is exactly enough move if she just blasts through.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelore View Post
    Is it just me or does the Tool actually seem surprised that Jillian hates him?
    Not just surprised, but hurt as well.

    And then, "Well, I hate her too." Excellent.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    Maybe, but it's been established that the stack bonus maxes out at eight units.
    I know that, but it still could be better to send big groups. A group of 32 units each with bonus X is still better than a group of 8 units each with bonus X, unless the enemy can wipe all of them out for similar damage.

    It all depends on what "stack bonus maxes out at eight units" means. Does it stop adding after 8 units, or does it decrease after that according to the number of units?
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Stanley has always been very childlike in how he deals with others, relying on whims to guide his emotions from one superficial extreme to another. But of all the possible examples, this current page is quite possibly the perfect one. I love it.

    On the other subject -
    I have trouble believing that Jill and Wanda are sisters...no, strike that. I don't want Jill and Wanda to be sisters, possible evidence aside, because frankly that would be really really creepy. But I *do* like the idea of Jill also secretly being part of the extinct tribe Wanda belongs to.

    Perhaps this 'spell' of Wanda's isn't so much magic as it is loyalty to a third, unrelated faction. Their faction. Perhaps Jill... "won't"... switch sides - not because the spell won't allow for it - but because it wouldn't be a useful strategy for the two of them. Play both sides for fools; step out the victor once they've killed each other off. Worked for Starscream and Emperor Palpatine. Why not?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    The important thing in this strip is Jillian's hatred for Stanley. There must be a reason for it, and Stanley surprise is justified. She was captured and tortured but that's a mercenary barbarian way of life. In fact it's Wanda who tortures her, not Stanley. Wanda's comment hints at something deeper.

    I dont' get the fixation on the lover thing. We see Jillian acting in ways not to harm Wanda but she is not aware of that. She has to justify everything to herself for the sake of Ansom. The spell makes her protect Wanda but in ways that do not go against her nature (her love for Ansom, her hatred for Stanley).

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Wanda is the Dominant, and Jillian is the submissive of their relationship.
    That's your take on the story. Jillian was captive and under a spell. If they met freely and that kind of stuff happened, yes, but that's not what happened here. We know Wanda enjoys torture (one of her hobbies) but from the look on Jillian's face when she recovers we have no hint that Jillian is in to it.

    When they talked "freely" they didn't act like lovers, in fact Jillian discussed Ansom with Wanda. They acted like friends. The spell, and the way Wanda does her torture, do have sexual overtones, but that's probably intrinsic to this kind of magic. Jillian believes she got away using the tunnels, and likely doesn't remember anything from the interrogation, riding the dwagon, or the "kiss" you keep talking about. I'm not even sure Jillian remembers she met Wanda in Stanley's dungeon.

    She knows Wanda, and they share a previous history (the Royal thing) but I have seen no hint in the initial talk with Wanda (before the "prisoner/mistress" thing) and after the torture session (before the ride and more brain-washing) which suggests more than friendship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    And don't assume that "People don't do that kind of thing here" for wherever it is that you live.
    I lived in many different countries and have met all sort of people (and in this particular regard orders of magnitude above the three you think is enough to lecture me on this subject). Hey, I've even been to the bible belt (though only for a short time).
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    what did stanley think she thought of him?
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    What I like most about this page is that Wanda finally confirms [IC] what many here were suspecting anyway. Jillian will never do anything that might put her in danger and she is 100% sure about it.
    Now I just dont believe it's only a spell, a spell can always be dispelled, it must be something more to make someone like Wanda dead-proof sure.

    My feeling is that: Wanda and Jillian are both from the lost croatan tribe. They are both warlords (non-rank-and-file-units) hence you could say they are "sisters" or "cousins" or "auto-allied" or something. In a world where units pop into existence families are not important, the next best bonding structure seems to be a tribe.

    Also, the bi/not-bi discussion is somehow not relevant for the protagonists living in Erfworld. With the notable exception of Parson I doubt that the units there ever (intended to) use their different organs for reproduction. So if there is no amphigony, there is no biologically "default" sexual life, therefore (assuming independent units like to be paired with another unit) there should be an equal amount of m/m, m/f, f/m, f/f pairings and for an Erfworlder this should be perfectly normal.

    So if such an relation is normal, what is Wanda hiding? For me it makes sense that she wouldn't say (for example) that Jillian is a royal from the croatan tribe, said tribe has been wiped out by Stanley, that Wanda is her royal consort and while Jillian may be not totally unhappy with her mercenary life, she [Wanda] has brewed an evil masterplan to reanimate their tribe. The girls are both key warlords on either side and for the time being it is not in their best interest that either side wins (maybe they are after the arkentools, too and Stanleys quest plays into their hands?). The entire sex-stuff might be as simple as "they have a kinky relationship" and works perfectly for the authors to cover up an too early exposure of the big plot (were thae alliance/GK war is only a mall part).

    As for the spell on Jillian there are many many explanations...
    there is no spell, the archons are just assuming given Jillians "strange" behavoiur.
    the spell is there to make sure the warrior instincts (urge to kill and destroy every GK unit ... btw, an excellent explanation why Jillian always hits targets of opportunity is simple revenge for wiping out her tribe) dont take over in a critical moment but basically Jillian knows what to do.
    the spell is a strength +4 spell or the like
    the spell is there to save Jillian should she be accused of treason (she was under a spell!) but basically it is a fake.

    oh well, I might be wrong after all ...
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    The important thing in this strip is Jillian's hatred for Stanley. There must be a reason for it, and Stanley surprise is justified. She was captured and tortured but that's a mercenary barbarian way of life. In fact it's Wanda who tortures her, not Stanley. Wanda's comment hints at something deeper.

    I dont' get the fixation on the lover thing. We see Jillian acting in ways not to harm Wanda but she is not aware of that. She has to justify everything to herself for the sake of Ansom. The spell makes her protect Wanda but in ways that do not go against her nature (her love for Ansom, her hatred for Stanley).


    That's your take on the story. Jillian was captive and under a spell. If they met freely and that kind of stuff happened, yes, but that's not what happened here. We know Wanda enjoys torture (one of her hobbies) but from the look on Jillian's face when she recovers we have no hint that Jillian is in to it.

    When they talked "freely" they didn't act like lovers, in fact Jillian discussed Ansom with Wanda. They acted like friends. The spell, and the way Wanda does her torture, do have sexual overtones, but that's probably intrinsic to this kind of magic. Jillian believes she got away using the tunnels, and likely doesn't remember anything from the interrogation, riding the dwagon, or the "kiss" you keep talking about. I'm not even sure Jillian remembers she met Wanda in Stanley's dungeon.

    She knows Wanda, and they share a previous history (the Royal thing) but I have seen no hint in the initial talk with Wanda (before the "prisoner/mistress" thing) and after the torture session (before the ride and more brain-washing) which suggests more than friendship.

    They would have to be very good friends for Jillian to suggest to Wanda that they run away together and abandon Ansom and Stanley. I'm willing to accept that there's considerable ambiguity in the full nature of their relationship: maybe it wasn't a kiss but a whispered set of instructions; maybe Wanda is just using Jillian for information, subversion, and fun; maybe Jillian isn't enjoying her cathartic D/s session. But the evidence is strongly in favor of a D/s relationship whether it's healthy (they truly care about each other) or unhealthy (Wanda's just using Jillian as a mole).

    And let me chime in on gentle aftercare of submissives and the wonderful "performance" by Stanley. It really makes me wonder how old he is mentally. Perhaps he truly is the chosen one; he has the childish mindset that goes with the scenery. Maybe he's the power behind the Titans and is just awaiting his reawakening as he comes once more into His Tool Power.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by ConfirmME View Post
    I think Wanda and Zamussels are sisters.
    Today, we're going to tour the Mediterranean countries.



    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer View Post
    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Yodimus View Post
    Perhaps this 'spell' of Wanda's isn't so much magic as it is loyalty to a third, unrelated faction. Their faction.
    Very interesting idea. It's possible that as far as the spell goes, their specific feelings toward each other are irrelevant... just that they need to protect "the tribe."

    If Jillian is unaware that Wanda cast a spell, and the Archons either point it out or even dispel it, I wonder how she will react. A used lover has one sort of rage.... but a manipulated tribes-mate's reaction is harder to gauge... hmm. And Jillian could well be both, so how she reacts would be interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    The important thing in this strip is Jillian's hatred for Stanley. There must be a reason for it, and Stanley surprise is justified. She was captured and tortured but that's a mercenary barbarian way of life. In fact it's Wanda who tortures her, not Stanley. Wanda's comment hints at something deeper.
    Eh, I don't know if it's anything particularly deep. Stanley has displayed contempt for pretty much everything not him; he's willing to sacrifice his own towns, people, etc. just to get these Arkentools; AND he may well be responsible for the death of many people Jillian cared about... such as, oh, say, her tribe. There are a lot of reasons Jillian could hate Stanley, and none of them are particularly mysterious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krelon View Post
    So if such an relation is normal, what is Wanda hiding? For me it makes sense that she wouldn't say (for example) that Jillian is a royal from the croatan tribe, said tribe has been wiped out by Stanley, that Wanda is her royal consort and while Jillian may be not totally unhappy with her mercenary life, she [Wanda] has brewed an evil masterplan to reanimate their tribe.
    I think the tribe thing could well be it, but even if they are just lovers or whathaveyou that's worth keeping secret. "Sleeping with the enemy" is generally not an approved activity when in war.


    The entire sex-stuff might be as simple as "they have a kinky relationship" and works perfectly for the authors to cover up an too early exposure of the big plot (were thae alliance/GK war is only a mall part).
    Quite true.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Parson: If only there weren't so many gwiffons...
    *Reaches down on the map as if to grab a gwiffon and toss it aside*
    *A gwiffon mysteriously vanishes from Jillian's group, much to her and the Archons' suprise*
    *A peep appears in Parson's hand, several months stale and aged to perfection, to everone's astonishment*
    -MUNCH-
    Stanley the Tool: -GASP- He snacks on GWIFFONS!!!
    *odds of victory go up by 4%*
    -munch-
    -munch-
    -munch-
    Parson: oh wait, this one has a Jillian on it...
    *shake, shake, shake*
    *Jillian falls to the ground, startled and confused, more wounded in pride than in body*
    *Jillian is no longer a flying unit*
    -munch-
    VICTORY!!

    ( Okay, so its not likely to happen, but it is fun to think about )
    Last edited by Red Zero; 2007-08-17 at 08:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Krelon View Post
    My feeling is that: Wanda and Jillian are both from the lost croatan tribe. They are both warlords (non-rank-and-file-units) hence you could say they are "sisters" or "cousins" or "auto-allied" or something. In a world where units pop into existence families are not important, the next best bonding structure seems to be a tribe.
    It certainly makes sense that being tribemates would be a major relationship, given that it determines default allegiances and there is no such thing as "family" in the usual sense. (It's possible that created units, at least individually significant ones as opposed to mass dwagon fodder, have some corresponding "family identity" defined as part of their creation, but there's no actual evidence of that, other than the tenuous argument that "Prince" usually -- but not always -- denotes "son of a king and queen".)

    Also, the bi/not-bi discussion is somehow not relevant for the protagonists living in Erfworld. With the notable exception of Parson I doubt that the units there ever (intended to) use their different organs for reproduction. So if there is no amphigony, there is no biologically "default" sexual life, therefore (assuming independent units like to be paired with another unit) there should be an equal amount of m/m, m/f, f/m, f/f pairings and for an Erfworlder this should be perfectly normal.
    OTOH, Erfworld has many parallels to Earth* that don't flow directly from its internal logic (though it all remains internally consistent). The fact that sexuality is present at all, in a world where people are created by cities and pop into existence as adults, strikes me as an example of this.

    Following that reasoning, my default assumption is that Erfworlder sexuality is more or less similar to that of real-world humans, except insofar as it is directly affected by the peculiarities of their world. (Example: It's my understanding that most real-world BDSM relationships have "no permanent damage" as a basic ground rule. In the real world, that would rule out the sort of whipping Wanda gave Jillian... but in Erfworld, "no permanent damage" means only "don't croak anybody".)

    *I interpret this as a case of a one-in-zillions coincidence that was nonetheless likely to arise somewhere in "all of existence". Given that, the fact that it was the particular world Parson got drawn into isn't surprising; the coincidental parallels were part of the reason Wanda locked onto Parson rather than any of the other possible candidates.

    So if such an relation is normal, what is Wanda hiding? For me it makes sense that she wouldn't say (for example) that Jillian is a royal from the croatan tribe, said tribe has been wiped out by Stanley, that Wanda is her royal consort and while Jillian may be not totally unhappy with her mercenary life, she [Wanda] has brewed an evil masterplan to reanimate their tribe. The girls are both key warlords on either side and for the time being it is not in their best interest that either side wins (maybe they are after the arkentools, too and Stanleys quest plays into their hands?). The entire sex-stuff might be as simple as "they have a kinky relationship" and works perfectly for the authors to cover up an too early exposure of the big plot (were thae alliance/GK war is only a mall part).
    That's an interesting interpretation; I can't find any holes in it. The only caveat is on a meta level; it seems to me that if Wanda's affiliation with the lost Croatan tribe were that significant, it would have come up in the story itself rather than only the cast page. Admittedly, we still have a couple dozen pages left for it to be developed, if that's where the story is headed....
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-08-17 at 08:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Krelon View Post
    So if such an relation is normal, what is Wanda hiding?
    Jillian is Wanda's out in case Stanley boops up.

    Jillian is close enough to Ansom to know his battle plans; this gives Wanda a good idea of what's going on, beyond what the map tells her, so she can decide when use her escape hatch and pull out.

    Jillian has a penchant for getting captured, taken to Wanda's Dungeon, and 'escape'. This is probably embedded in the spell Wanda cast on Jillian so she could get a regular information stream.

    If Stanley knew that little setup, he'd probably boop it all up; the man's a simpleton. "No plan survives contact with your allies"... Plus, if he found out about what REALLY went on in the dungeon, he'd probably insist on watching. (The little pervert.)

    If Ansom knew Jillian and Wanda were in a relationship, he'd never let Jillian near the front lines or be privy to his full plan. He'd just tell her where to go and when. Not a very effective spy and of no use to Wanda, except as someone to try to hire to command the dwagons. And none of Ansom's allies would trust Jillian if they knew she was consorting with the enemy.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Jillian is Wanda's out in case Stanley boops up.

    Jillian is close enough to Ansom to know his battle plans; this gives Wanda a good idea of what's going on, beyond what the map tells her, so she can decide when use her escape hatch and pull out.
    I had speculated earlier that Wanda has manipulated Jillian to believe that she (Wanda) is not really on Stanley's side, but that's refuted by her comment "She knows this situation is critical to my side" (underlining added).

    Given that this interpretation is out, I now perceive Jillian's proposal to literally run away from her problem as an indication that the prospect of another interrogation by Wanda has forced her to confront her divided loyalties (which she is usually not aware of, or at least usually avoids thinking about). The situation is now reaching a boiling point which she is desperately trying to deal with somehow. That brings me back to an earlier speculation that Wanda read this as a sign that Jillian just needed one more good push.

    Jillian has a penchant for getting captured, taken to Wanda's Dungeon, and 'escape'. This is probably embedded in the spell Wanda cast on Jillian so she could get a regular information stream.

    If Stanley knew that little setup, he'd probably boop it all up; the man's a simpleton. "No plan survives contact with your allies"...
    Stanley apparently does know about the general catch-and-release arrangement. He grumbles about it occasionally ("I don't like giving her up again." -- emphasis added), but recognizes its value. (In view of what we've seen since then, that seems to be what he's referring to when he says "So, yeah, I think it's pretty important we got that Barbarian warlord back." This raises the question of how much he told Parson about it at the time.)

    If Ansom knew Jillian and Wanda were in a relationship, he'd never let Jillian near the front lines or be privy to his full plan. He'd just tell her where to go and when. Not a very effective spy and of no use to Wanda, except as someone to try to hire to command the dwagons. And none of Ansom's allies would trust Jillian if they knew she was consorting with the enemy.
    True. By now, some of Ansom's allies and subordinates don't trust her anyway -- Webinar and Dora are openly hostile, and Vinny raises the question of how much Ansom trusts her (and, by implication, the question of how much Ansom should trust her).
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-08-17 at 09:41 AM.

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