League of Legends LXVIII: "MY PICK'EMS!" Part II: Who Didn't Get Out of Groups?

[Ivellius]

Hot take: Open ended stories or a focus on lore sells better in games with large playable casts. Its easier to add or use these open ended building blocks to create whatever situation desired, both for developers and fans. See: Overwatch's "Look at my cool OC" character design and the size of the fandom.

If that was or ever has been Riot's reasoning, they've been consistently lying about it.

I don't think they mean to be so bad about lore, but it does get really frustrating when the past several years have been a continuous promise of "We'll do good stuff with these changes!" and then don't write anything.

I guess it's probably too soon to call for a Varus retcon?

[Maryring]

Hot take: Open ended stories or a focus on lore sells better in games with large playable casts. Its easier to add or use these open ended building blocks to create whatever situation desired, both for developers and fans. See: Overwatch's "Look at my cool OC" character design and the size of the fandom.

Inaccurate. Someone's story can only "end" if they die, and often not even then. I remember reading a ton of fan-stories and fan roleplays involving a variety of characters back in the old Riot forums. Even some involving Trundle the plague troll. The developers have yet to actually continue anyone's story, and fans never let anything stop them from telling the stories that they want. If some aspect don't fit, they'll ignore it or retcon it or whatever. It doesn't matter because hey, you do get to make your own stories when you're writing up fan content. All they need is a base story that is inspiring. Both "loner plague troll" and "mighty troll king" are base stories that can inspire.

[Ashen Lilies]

The developers have yet to actually continue anyone's story

Literally incorrect.

[Joran]

I think League of Legends does a pretty good job of setting up evocative and engrossing areas: Shurima, Demacia, Noxus, Freljord, etc. Thematically, they're great and you can easily see where characters line up. Riot's campus has areas devoted to each region of Runeterra and you immediately know which area you're in.

Additionally, LoL does a good job creating characters/champions that people identify with and want to play as. Characters like Jinx, Jhin, Diana, Vi, Leona, Lux, etc. People love these characters.

So, all of these strengths come together into cinematics like the latest one "The Climb": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eu7NzzHC84

(also, shoutout to the music department, they're AWESOME)

What LoL keeps struggling with is telling continuing stories about the characters after they're introduced. The nature of the game makes it difficult to tell continuing stories since the gameplay is divorced from the lore; battles take place between a hodge podge of characters with no relations into a random part of the world. Also, because characters in-game remain the same over years, they appear static. Finally, LoL has a very large roster of characters, so it's difficult to keep all of them moving, especially since there's very little overlap between the characters themselves. Each region basically has its own storyline.

I know the Universe site has a lot of stories, probably better written than anything that came before it, but I haven't dived into it, because the payoff isn't there.

[Maryring]

Literally incorrect.

And yet you fail to provide an example.

[Dienekes]

I think League of Legends does a pretty good job of setting up evocative and engrossing areas: Shurima, Demacia, Noxus, Freljord, etc. Thematically, they're great and you can easily see where characters line up. Riot's campus has areas devoted to each region of Runeterra and you immediately know which area you're in.

Additionally, LoL does a good job creating characters/champions that people identify with and want to play as. Characters like Jinx, Jhin, Diana, Vi, Leona, Lux, etc. People love these characters.

You see, I would challenge this. I don't particularly find the areas that Riot has made particularly engrossing. We got Dragon Age-lite Demacia, generic Egypt Shurima, Ice Mountain Freljord, Pirate-Cowboy Land (which admittedly that is such nonsense it actually does turn around to be confusing if not interesting). And everywhere you go, you can scratch the surface and find a generic magic evil invader beneath the surface. They're pretty boring locations, really.

What Riot does do a good job is creating a lot of archetypes and designs to draw people in. There are people who do care about every single champion in this game. Hell, I'm here as proof to that. I loved old!Urgot, who I believe was one of if not the single most unplayed champion in the entire history game. They add designs that speak to individuals, usually demonstrating aspects of power, humor, or if you're weird like me, a sense of grotesque body horror. Add a personality that speaks to broad themes of persecution if you like Diana, or dignity and honor if you like Garen.

The players will fill in the details themselves. So when you add to the stories demonstrating those core aspects of their personality while hinting towards problems they have to face you'll end up making most of the people happy. When a character's story or central aspect is completely changed, or more likely, when Riot's writers thought someone's core aspect was not what the fans thought it was you'll get a group of people who did not care about the former champion start caring, and probably piss off the old fans in the process.

What they definitely do well is visuals and sound design. The clip you played, that last Varus video. Outstandingly done.

But the actual world of Runeterra isn't all that engaging. And the characters are pretty standard fair. They're not objectively bad. But I wouldn't go singing their praises as actual writers.

And yet you fail to provide an example.

Bilgewater developed the Miss Fortune and Gangplank plot and the Graves and Twisted Fate plot.

That's the only one that really makes a dramatic development.

Technically Nasus also fought Xerath and decided he needs to find Renekton and Sivir got away. Which is plot development for Nasus, I guess.

I think that's it.

[Ashen Lilies]

And yet you fail to provide an example.

Miss Captain Pirate Queen(?) Fortune.

("Fail" isn't the correct word. "Chose not to" is more accurate.)

[Joran]

You see, I would challenge this. I don't particularly find the areas that Riot has made particularly engrossing. We got Dragon Age-lite Demacia, generic Egypt Shurima, Ice Mountain Freljord, Pirate-Cowboy Land (which admittedly that is such nonsense it actually does turn around to be confusing if not interesting). And everywhere you go, you can scratch the surface and find a generic magic evil invader beneath the surface. They're pretty boring locations, really.

What Riot does do a good job is creating a lot of archetypes and designs to draw people in. There are people who do care about every single champion in this game. Hell, I'm here as proof to that. I loved old!Urgot, who I believe was one of if not the single most unplayed champion in the entire history game. They add designs that speak to individuals, usually demonstrating aspects of power, humor, or if you're weird like me, a sense of grotesque body horror. Add a personality that speaks to broad themes of persecution if you like Diana, or dignity and honor if you like Garen.

The players will fill in the details themselves. So when you add to the stories demonstrating those core aspects of their personality while hinting towards problems they have to face you'll end up making most of the people happy. When a character's story or central aspect is completely changed, or more likely, when Riot's writers thought someone's core aspect was not what the fans thought it was you'll get a group of people who did not care about the former champion start caring, and probably piss off the old fans in the process.

What they definitely do well is visuals and sound design. The clip you played, that last Varus video. Outstandingly done.

But the actual world of Runeterra isn't all that engaging. And the characters are pretty standard fair. They're not objectively bad. But I wouldn't go singing their praises as actual writers.

You worded it better than me; I can't disagree with this.

I enjoyed the Freljord relaunch, when they introduced the three Queens and had you choose a side. I think that as more a cool storyline/archetype than Freljord feeling like a real, breathing place. Same with Shurima, although that may be related to all the Azir memes.

[The Hellbug]

Yeah, I'm just going to chime in and say I'm not a fan of Swain's new aesthetic; it looks like they lost a couple of the key features I liked about him (losing the cane makes me very sad, for one). I'll wait to judge the kit, though; admittedly, his old one was very numbers-check-y so there's a lot of room for improvement on that front.

[Ivellius]

Miss Captain Pirate Queen(?) Fortune.

("Fail" isn't the correct word. "Chose not to" is more accurate.)

Considering that was part of her relaunch, I think it's better characterized as a re-imagining. In her current lore, we've never really known her as anything but her Captain incarnation.

[PhantomFox]

Considering that was part of her relaunch, I think it's better characterized as a re-imagining. In her current lore, we've never really known her as anything but her Captain incarnation.

Not Shadows and Fortune, the comic about her and the three rival captains.

[Ivellius]

Not Shadows and Fortune, the comic about her and the three rival captains.

Had no idea it existed. Just read it.

It's...fine, I guess. It takes her from "presumed successor to Gangplank as major Bilgewater leader" to "confirmed successor to Gangplank as major Bilgewater leader," I'd say. Without having any trust in Riot's narrative people that it'll ever be important I can't have much attachment to it. I mean, it introduces three people we've never heard of as major characters and then deals with them, probably getting rid of their narrative impact for the future. At the end of the day, what has changed for Fortune in terms of how she might interact with future storylines?

I suppose we could take it as a "Start of Darkness" type thing, but I don't think that works very well in tiny pieces over a long span of time.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't like Swain's new look. His kit looks cool, but that hand looks generic and ugly. Plus they took away his cane.

But seriously, I hate that demon hand so much. It's exactly what you'd expect from a demon hand, and it's so damn boring. Also, also, I really wish League would stop prettying up champions. Urgot's no longer a fleshy corpse monster, though I do like his new art, I still miss the old Urgot as well. Yorik went from gross zombie gravedigger to tragic brooding anti-hero. And so on and so forth.

Now the old crow mage-general has become some demonic vampire wannabe. Art wise anyways.

[Ashen Lilies]

Not Shadows and Fortune, the comic about her and the three rival captains.

Had no idea it existed. Just read it.

It's...fine, I guess. It takes her from "presumed successor to Gangplank as major Bilgewater leader" to "confirmed successor to Gangplank as major Bilgewater leader," I'd say. Without having any trust in Riot's narrative people that it'll ever be important I can't have much attachment to it. I mean, it introduces three people we've never heard of as major characters and then deals with them, probably getting rid of their narrative impact for the future. At the end of the day, what has changed for Fortune in terms of how she might interact with future storylines?

I suppose we could take it as a "Start of Darkness" type thing, but I don't think that works very well in tiny pieces over a long span of time.

Actually MF's lore has progressed in three parts, so far.

Burning Tides was the 'original' event: a bounty hunter out for vengeance kills a long-hated enemy that murdered her family. We'll call this the 'relaunch'.

Shadow and Fortune is part two: initially MF doesn't give a **** about the consequences of her actions, which have created a massive power void and chaos. Vengeance sated, she's content to let it all fall apart. The Harrowing makes her reassess her priorities, and she accepts that she needs to take an active hand in the power void she created, to stop innocent people from getting hurt.

The comic is part three: best intentions don't always count for something. As much as she claims that she's the better option for Bilgewater, she still ruthlessly murders some rival captains (even if, in all fairness, they betrayed her first). Her assertion that she's better than Gangplank for this rings a little hollow.

So in summary so far: MF kills the pirate king she thought was just a sadistic monster, eventually decides to step up herself, then finds that being queen of Bilgewater might require her to become a little bit of a monster herself.

That's character development. That's a story.


I'd say the Darius comic counts, as it introduces more about his character and develops an internal conflict about his service as the Hand of Noxus without retreading or relaunching/retconning anything we already knew. We're definitely also counting a bunch of the Shurima stuff that's been released following Taliyah's release, as the short stories released at that time are building on the original events (Azir's resurrection, the raising of the Shuriman capital from the sands) that were introduced with the original Ascension event.

You can like it or hate it, but to say that the developers haven't continued any stories is literally incorrect.

[mrcarter11]

What LoL keeps struggling with is telling continuing stories about the characters after they're introduced. The nature of the game makes it difficult to tell continuing stories since the gameplay is divorced from the lore; battles take place between a hodge podge of characters with no relations into a random part of the world. Also, because characters in-game remain the same over years, they appear static. Finally, LoL has a very large roster of characters, so it's difficult to keep all of them moving, especially since there's very little overlap between the characters themselves. Each region basically has its own storyline.

I know the Universe site has a lot of stories, probably better written than anything that came before it, but I haven't dived into it, because the payoff isn't there.

Well they made that choice, in terms of divorcing lore and gameplay. Because it stopped them from telling stories,, supposedly.

[sonofzeal]

Is it just me, or does the new Swain rework owe a lot of influence to Vladimir? Quite similar visual aesthetic (white hair, long coat, spikes of villainy, red-coded magic attacks), and some crossover on spells too (lot of life-gain, red particles flying from the foe to him, a circular AoE placed on the ground, and a self-target that changes the base model significantly for a short period). Obviously they're not the same, and I imagine the actual playstyle will end up being different, but watching the sample gameplay videos we have so far looks like watching a new Vlad rework with more CC and a slightly darker color palate.

[Vogie]

Is it just me, or does the new Swain rework owe a lot of influence to Vladimir? Quite similar visual aesthetic (white hair, long coat, spikes of villainy, red-coded magic attacks), and some crossover on spells too (lot of life-gain, red particles flying from the foe to him, a circular AoE placed on the ground, and a self-target that changes the base model significantly for a short period). Obviously they're not the same, and I imagine the actual playstyle will end up being different, but watching the sample gameplay videos we have so far looks like watching a new Vlad rework with more CC and a slightly darker color palate.

I think so. I also think that the Warwick remake was heavily influenced by Nocturne, but hanging on to core pieces of Warwick by introducing something very new (the hunting/blood scent mechanic). I don't know if it's a convergence of designs or what, but it makes me wonder if this remake cycle of "Something that's known to work + something completely different" is a good thing or a bad thing.

I kinda wish they had focused a bit more on the "Bird" part of Swain, rather than the "drain tank" half, although I can see a reason - Between Anivia, Ashe, Quinn, Azir, Xayah/Rakan (and Aurelion Sol, kinda), there may not be a whole lot more Bird-related mechanical design space to mine.

[Qwertystop]

I think so. I also think that the Warwick remake was heavily influenced by Nocturne, but hanging on to core pieces of Warwick by introducing something very new (the hunting/blood scent mechanic). I don't know if it's a convergence of designs or what, but it makes me wonder if this remake cycle of "Something that's known to work + something completely different" is a good thing or a bad thing.

I kinda wish they had focused a bit more on the "Bird" part of Swain, rather than the "drain tank" half, although I can see a reason - Between Anivia, Ashe, Quinn, Azir, Xayah/Rakan (and Aurelion Sol, kinda), there may not be a whole lot more Bird-related mechanical design space to mine.

Nothing that any existing bird-related champion does overlaps with the biggest thing Swain could aim at: Flocks.

[Nadevoc]

Nothing that any existing bird-related champion does overlaps with the biggest thing Swain could aim at: Flocks.

Fiddlesticks!

[Qwertystop]

Fiddlesticks!

Fine. Fids has flock-as-AOE. Swain used to have flock-as-multiple-distinct-birds (birds move from Swain to targets, there is a fixed maximum number of birds, and damage and healing is pinned to bird-arrival-time). Now he doesn't, because the birds are only a graphical effect (they originate from the damaged unit, and move to Swain much faster).

They could have gone in the other direction and emphasized them. Perhaps the birds move slower, can be attacked like ghouls (or at least hit by AOEs), and will gang up on someone if there's less enemies than birds.

[Dienekes]

Fine. Fids has flock-as-AOE. Swain used to have flock-as-multiple-distinct-birds (birds move from Swain to targets, there is a fixed maximum number of birds, and damage and healing is pinned to bird-arrival-time). Now he doesn't, because the birds are only a graphical effect (they originate from the damaged unit, and move to Swain much faster).

They could have gone in the other direction and emphasized them. Perhaps the birds move slower, can be attacked like ghouls (or at least hit by AOEs), and will gang up on someone if there's less enemies than birds.

So, on the note of bird mage. Anyone else think it’s just a missed opportunity that he summons a big Sauron eye when he’s scouting and not, you know, a bird? It could even be a gross demon bird. Could do a whole sending birds out to collect intelligence thing. Tie it with his soul reading ability to have the souls fly at him bird shaped. And, of course, give him a demon bird head for his ult. And done. That doesn’t seem that hard.

[PhantomFox]

A note from Reav3 in regards to this:

"Hey guys,

In retrospect I think my response was pretty bad because I just described the teams feeling on why we think Swains new look reflects his new theme/direction but I didn't really go into the foundations of the Swain VGU that led to that reasoning which I think made it end up pretty shallow and I apologize for that. It also came across as "Because lore" which wasn't the intention as we choose the lore when we make the champion, as long as it makes sense within the IP of course. I also don't want to give away too much of the new lore/bio stuff before it is released.

Let's start from the beginning though. Whenever we make a new champion or VGU we highly value thematic cohesion. We generally start with a high level theme or archetype we are trying to achieve and then Art, Narrative and gameplay design forms pillars in order to support that theme. One of the problems with pre-rework Swain was that he wasn't very thematically cohesive, and his source of power wasn't very clear either (though that in unrelated to the hair discussion.) Early on we decided that it was important that Swain felt like the ruler of Noxus and we wanted his high level theme to be a Warlock Dictator. We felt it was very important that he feels like he is in control on the demon which is why he doesn't fully transform into a bird when he ults. We didn't feel chained to the lore and of course we could have changed this but in the end we felt it was important that Swain was in control of the demon and that it wasn't controlling or corrupting him. Swain is not Kayn or Varus. This goes back to his theme of being bad ass enough to bend a nation to his will, on his own. As for the hair, the team does feel the long hair adds the sophistication/intellect feeling that is also very important to his theme, which also comes across in his lore/personality and VO. Once again we aren't bending to any lore, we created the lore in service of what we believe was a strong thematic direction for Swain. Short hair lends itself more to a rugged, war general, and less of a Intellectual Warlock Dictator. Jarven is probably closer to the rugged War General Archetype rather then Warlock Dictator which is more cohesive with a ranged/mage champion.

Tbh the changes would not be difficult to make, that is not the issue. We don't want to make changes we feel will lessen his thematic cohesion when that was one of the primary goals of the rework from the beginning.

One thing I will note however is that I do think the hair is coming off more white in the splash then grey which is leading him to look more young/malfoy then intended. In the model his hair looks much more grey. Our intention was that young Swain had black hair but it turned grey as he got older. In fact for a large portion of development Swain did have black hair but many people felt he looked way to young to be leading a powerful nation like Noxus. We will look into this."

[Ivellius]

A note from Reav3 in regards to this:

I mean...this is basically saying that people complaining are wrong about what theme they want him to embody. It's a pretty subjective...umm, subject.

[Dienekes]

A note from Reav3 in regards to this:

That's really weird to me. Because I think the end result is that he still is incredibly muddled.

His VO (which is amazing by the way) is basically Swain talking about either characters inner secrets, or, military strategy. He even has a line about rulers should be out on the field being active. His VO is clearly a military field leader.

His visuals are generic evil overlord with a funky arm. Not really much to say here. There's only 1 thing I think is cool about his visuals, and that's the coat thing.

His abilities are blood mage, basically Vladimir but cooler.

Also, the hair reasoning thing is silly. We see Noxians in that Darius comic, I don't think any of the commanders had long hair. And it's a weird dichotomy that field leaders can't be sophisticated. I mean, Julius Caesar fought on the front line, and was considered one of the greatest orators of his day, and a patron to several philosophers and poets (though truth be told Augustus would do far more on that front). Also dude had short hair and was balding.

[Vogie]

I legit forgot about Fiddlesticks. That's 8 bird-related champions. Good grief, no wonder they went for the blood mage part deux.

I mean...this is basically saying that people complaining are wrong about what theme they want him to embody. It's a pretty subjective...umm, subject.

And way too much discussion about hair.

I genuinely didn't notice that the hair had changed.

Way to bury the lead, there, Rito.

[mrcarter11]

I mean, Julius Caesar fought on the front line, and was considered one of the greatest orators of his day, and a patron to several philosophers and poets (though truth be told Augustus would do far more on that front). Also dude had short hair and was balding.

I've never read anything about Caesar being on the front lines at least not after he took command of several legions. By Gaul, I believe he had a reputation for how good of a commander he was, by not being anywhere near the front lines and instead directing via messengers.

[Ashen Lilies]

And way too much discussion about hair.

I genuinely didn't notice that the hair had changed.

Way to bury the lead, there, Rito.

I'd imagine Reav is discussing the hair because he was responding to some comments about the hair, and not as an attempt at misdirection. That's just me, though.

Edit: Hotfix Nunu nerfs to Q. That was fast.

[Dienekes]

I've never read anything about Caesar being on the front lines at least not after he took command of several legions. By Gaul, I believe he had a reputation for how good of a commander he was, by not being anywhere near the front lines and instead directing via messengers.

Caesar is recorded to having fought at the front twice, at Alesia (because being pinned between two forces and walls the whole battle was a front) and at Munda where he took a centurions shield and fought to try and hold his nearly crumbling line.

The idea of the general being far away from the battlefield is a pretty modern one. Created by advanced methods of communication. Most the best generals seem to either place themselves right on the front line. With the primary cavalry unit. Or with the reserves.

[The Hellbug]

Caesar is recorded to having fought at the front twice, at Alesia (because being pinned between two forces and walls the whole battle was a front) and at Munda where he took a centurions shield and fought to try and hold his nearly crumbling line.

The idea of the general being far away from the battlefield is a pretty modern one. Created by advanced methods of communication. Most the best generals seem to either place themselves right on the front line. With the primary cavalry unit. Or with the reserves.

To be fair, both of those are by his own account, and Caesar was definitely a politician as well as a general. It's totally reasonable to expect a degree (how much is the question, of course, since his is the only account we have) of embellishment on his part to make himself and/or Rome look better and cooler, but that's a digression and more than enough of a history lesson for the League thread.

By the way, if they had gone for Swain as a more Caesar vibe (than the one they did, that is), I would have been happy about it.

[mrcarter11]

I mean I'd say if there are only two records, only the latter I was personally aware of, then it really isn't that modern. It was also the Roman way to say commanders should fight near the front but how much it this was observed in comparison for instance to Caesars own records that mention his use of messengers to relay commands while he oversaw the battle. Alexander is probably the most celebrated front line commander, but even his father Phillip supposedly stayed away from the front.

I wouldn't say it's really a modern thing, more so depends on what army you are talking about, since examples of both exist going back two millennium