League of Legends LXVIII: "MY PICK'EMS!" Part II: Who Didn't Get Out of Groups?

[Dienekes]

I'm actually not trying to be overly critical about it. Some of the design I think really works. Having his coat not all the way on with the sleeves draping around him his a nice touch that reminds me of Napoleon, even though I can't seem to find any picture of Napoleon doing this in a quick google search.

[Maryring]

U. G. L. Y. You ain't got no alibi. Put that scarf back on.

... I like scarves. Scarves rulz ok

That said, if their idea was to make Swain into a bird mage then they've utterly failed. There's pretty much no bird motif in his abilities. Just generic demonic red and black particle effects. The bird motif was far stronger in his old design.

The passive seems interesting. With Nevermove it can be a pretty strong displacement.

But seriously. He needs a scarf.

[Dienekes]

U. G. L. Y. You ain't got no alibi. Put that scarf back on.

... I like scarves. Scarves rulz ok

That said, if their idea was to make Swain into a bird mage then they've utterly failed. There's pretty much no bird motif in his abilities. Just generic demonic red and black particle effects. The bird motif was far stronger in his old design.

The passive seems interesting. With Nevermove it can be a pretty strong displacement.

But seriously. He needs a scarf.

That is kinda true. I am curious what the goal was. His two competing themes were always great general and evil bird mage. Now his abilities don’t really seem to focus on either. Sort of a generic warlock who occasionally talks about strategy and birds.

[Ivellius]

This really just makes me wish they'd kept the old Swain and brought in this guy as a new champion. I'm not even sure you'd have to change him hardly at all for both to fit here.

[Qwertystop]

I think they're trying to evoke "general" with the delayed attack that goes outside your vision, plus his passive working off of allied CC, and "birds" purely through particle effects on his passive? But yeah... he's only a little more of a strategist, and about equal in birdiness, and they could have given the same kit with non-bird particle effects to an entirely new champion and kept Swain.

[Ashen Lilies]

The ult is basically the same...

He looks like if Lucius Malfoy was a Sith Lord. He even gets the good old zappity zap. I'm a general fan of the kit. The E and W both look really interesting, and I do like what tweaks they did make to the ult to make it more dramatic. The only boring ability is the Q, but that's okay. It's just a damage cone that adds some reliable damage and waveclear to the kit (since they made the ult an ult, and not a toggle). That's fine to have.

[mrcarter11]

This really just makes me wish they'd kept the old Swain and brought in this guy as a new champion. I'm not even sure you'd have to change him hardly at all for both to fit here.

I don't disagree, but you could say the same thing about several other champion reworks. SonofZeal actually said the same exact thing about poppy.

It really doesn't capture bird mage to me. And I'm not totally sure how any of it is a General barring possible VO lines.

[Ashen Lilies]

Psssh. That's been a sentiment since the Sion rework.

[mrcarter11]

Psssh. That's been a sentiment since the Sion rework.

Was there anything before Sion? I think the Karma rework was prior but that's the only one coming to mind.

[Maryring]

Psssh. That's been a sentiment since the Sion Karma rework.

Fixed that for you.

I still miss original Karma.

[Dienekes]

Fixed that for you.

I still miss original Karma.

Trundle is and always will be the bitter plague-ridden outcast of a dead tribe. Fight me.

[Ivellius]

I don't disagree, but you could say the same thing about several other champion reworks. SonofZeal actually said the same exact thing about poppy.

Oh, definitely. Old Galio, Taric, and Karma should definitely be in the game alongside their new counterparts. Old Fiora is probably worthy of inclusion, too. Most of the others, off the top of my head, had kits that justified reworks and were more or less solved by the new version, though I wish Skarner could just be reverted to one of his earlier incarnations, or alternatively the new version still feels pretty close to the old.

[Qwertystop]

Oh, definitely. Old Galio, Taric, and Karma should definitely be in the game alongside their new counterparts. Old Fiora is probably worthy of inclusion, too. Most of the others, off the top of my head, had some clear problems with their kits that justified reworks and were more or less solved by the new version, though I wish Skarner could just be reverted to one of his earlier incarnations.

I'm not so sure about Galio and Taric - those were pretty close to their new kits, might be too similar to have both at once.

[Ivellius]

I'm not so sure about Galio and Taric - those were pretty close to their new kits, might be too similar to have both at once.

This is mostly assuming that Riot found different visuals / concepts for the champions, and had they done so they wouldn't feel all that close. Although personally, I'd have been fine with new Galio getting a completely different name and being a different creation (probably from a different sculptor) and wouldn't bat an eye.

[Qwertystop]

This is mostly assuming that Riot found different visuals / concepts for the champions, and had they done so they wouldn't feel all that close. Although personally, I'd have been fine with new Galio getting a completely different name and being a different creation (probably from a different sculptor) and wouldn't bat an eye.

...Hm.

Actually, looking to confirm things, I checked the abilities. It looks like I played the old versions so much more than the new ones that I actually forgot some of the details of the changes - thought Taric still had the armor-aura-into-armor-shred and Galio had the self-heal-on-damage defensive buff.

[mrcarter11]

Trundle is and always will be the bitter plague-ridden outcast of a dead tribe. Fight me.

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but was there even a reason to change his lore? I mean none of his abilities changed if memory serves.

[Ivellius]

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but was there even a reason to change his lore? I mean none of his abilities changed if memory serves.

Needed to make him prettier. Riot found that no one wanted to play such an ugly champion, so they were hoping an ice troll would be cooler. They were also getting rid of the League of Legends but wouldn't announce it for another year and a half, I think it was?

[PhantomFox]

I wasn't around then, but word on the street is that the character concept repelled more people than it drew in.

Edit: On the PBE Swain has a cool effect that periodically ravens fly in and perch on terrain nearby... watching...

[Dienekes]

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but was there even a reason to change his lore? I mean none of his abilities changed if memory serves.

Someone drew a concept art of an Ice Trundle skin and they liked it so much they decided to make that the base form.

A few weeks later when people started complaining they made some excuse that old Trundle's lore had nowhere to develop. Which was a heaping pile of bull, but that seems to be just what Riot says when people don't like the new lore.

[Nadevoc]

Oh, definitely. Old Galio, Taric, and Karma should definitely be in the game alongside their new counterparts. Old Fiora is probably worthy of inclusion, too. Most of the others, off the top of my head, had kits that justified reworks and were more or less solved by the new version, though I wish Skarner could just be reverted to one of his earlier incarnations, or alternatively the new version still feels pretty close to the old.

As much as I sometimes miss playing old Fiora, the kit wasn't good for game health. Same with Poppy.

Galio rework was pretty much a complete success in my mind. It maintains a lot of the feel of his old kit while making it sleaker and more modern. I don't think it would make sense to have the clunky old version of his kit alongside the new one.

I feel like Rioters have admitted that the Karma rework and how they went about it was a mistake, but I'm not positive on that.

(Can't really comment on Taric, and agree that new and old Skarner feel pretty similar to me)

[9mm]

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but was there even a reason to change his lore? I mean none of his abilities changed if memory serves.

lore team was feeling lazy.

ACTUAL REASON RIOT GAVE.

let that sink in.

As for a rework, they slightly modified 3 of his abilities. small slow on Q, removed tenacity and added increased heal on w, ult now steals % instead of flat. They made trundle players wait 2 years for the above changes. and you wonder why I'm still bitter.

As for Swain, he's been on Riots bad list since before he was released, remember how original torment was so anti-fun it had to be changed before release but after champ spotlight recording, and then stuck on Fizzes bloody W as a passive?

[Reinboom]

lore team was feeling lazy.

ACTUAL REASON RIOT GAVE.

let that sink in.

Do you have a quote of this?

Incidentally, I don't think any of the narrative team from 5 years ago when the Trundle VGU happened are around today.

... Or like 90% of the company as it is today. Huh.

[Dienekes]

Do you have a quote of this?

Incidentally, I don't think any of the narrative team from 5 years ago when the Trundle VGU happened are around today.

... Or like 90% of the company as it is today. Huh.

Still get to blame them for Targon though, right?

[Ivellius]

As for a rework, they slightly modified 3 of his abilities. small slow on Q, removed tenacity and added increased heal on w, ult now steals % instead of flat. They made trundle players wait 2 years for the above changes. and you wonder why I'm still bitter.

I believe the pillar knockback was also new, though I could be mistaken on that.

Do you have a quote of this?

Incidentally, I don't think any of the narrative team from 5 years ago when the Trundle VGU happened are around today.

... Or like 90% of the company as it is today. Huh.

This isn't entirely current Riot's fault, but the narrative approach for years has been to keep rewriting introductory stories until they get ready to change them again.

And not that I was the original person, but I imagine the relevant quote is found here from Riot Runaan:

"You guys are right: Trundle’s old story was compelling. It was a strong arc with a cathartic ending that finished the story of Trundle’s involvement with his tribe. The thing is, that story was effectively finished. Any evolution from the point at which Trundle decides to doom his tribe felt arbitrary when we discussed it internally.

We explored evolving Trundle into a frost troll as a solution to the problem of his story feeling complete. For example, we tried stories like “ice of Freljord slowed the disease” or “the Ice Witch cured him,” but they felt like Band-Aid solutions to get from Story A to Story B. This would not have been meaningful character development; it would have been an excuse to move the story forward in an inorganic way. A fresh start allowed us to create a strong, compelling, and open-ended story for Trundle.

Trundle’s old story was essentially finished, but new Trundle’s story is only just beginning. It’s essentially Act 1… where will the rest of the Troll King’s story take us?"

I don't think casting that as "lazy writers" is terribly inaccurate, though I can see why that description might chafe.

Edit: On further reading, also see here for Rioters' perspective at PAX in September 2013:

'We learned a ton on Trundle’s relaunch,' said senior character artist Joshua Singh during the PAX panel. 'My personal opinion is that I freaking love new Trundle, he is badass. But it was very abrupt and I think it could have been been handled a little more delicately as far as the lore [was concerned]. It caused some controversy and a lot of threads.'

[...]

'Trundle’s story had nowhere to go, he had no destination,' reasoned champion designer Ryan Scott. 'It was finished. There was nowhere else to go with that character.'

That said, Scott told the PAX audience that his team had 'talked a lot' about more sensitive ways Riot might introduce similarly seismic shifts in character development in the future.

'I think we’re really happy with the end result on Trundle - I think he’s objectively better from a number of standpoints,' he said. 'But I think the difference is when you make a big thematic shift like that, when you change something, you’ve got to ease people into it and take them on the journey with you.

'If we’d taken a little more time to ease into the changes, and told a complete story that eased Trundle into new Trundle - the same character going on a journey - I think that would be a much cooler way to get to that same result. It would have been a lot less like a splash of cold water to the face.'

Spoiler alert from 2018: no, they didn't learn anything, or at least the people left behind didn't learn anything.

[Dienekes]

I believe the pillar knockback was also new, though I could be mistaken on that.



This isn't entirely current Riot's fault, but the narrative approach for years has been to keep rewriting introductory stories until they get ready to change them again.

And not that I was the original person, but I imagine the relevant quote is found here from Riot Runaan:

"You guys are right: Trundle’s old story was compelling. It was a strong arc with a cathartic ending that finished the story of Trundle’s involvement with his tribe. The thing is, that story was effectively finished. Any evolution from the point at which Trundle decides to doom his tribe felt arbitrary when we discussed it internally.

We explored evolving Trundle into a frost troll as a solution to the problem of his story feeling complete. For example, we tried stories like “ice of Freljord slowed the disease” or “the Ice Witch cured him,” but they felt like Band-Aid solutions to get from Story A to Story B. This would not have been meaningful character development; it would have been an excuse to move the story forward in an inorganic way. A fresh start allowed us to create a strong, compelling, and open-ended story for Trundle.

Trundle’s old story was essentially finished, but new Trundle’s story is only just beginning. It’s essentially Act 1… where will the rest of the Troll King’s story take us?"

I don't think casting that as "lazy writers" is terribly inaccurate, though I can see why that description might chafe.

It's a heaping pile of cowdung is what that is. Nowhere to go with the character, bah. I could probably pitch 5 ideas here.

[Ivellius]

It's a heaping pile of cowdung is what that is. Nowhere to go with the character, bah. I could probably pitch 5 ideas here.

I mean, they even pitched ideas themselves when they were defending the change ("The Ice Witch offers him a cure!") but decided it was better to just retcon the story.

Reinboom, this isn't personal against you, but I used to love League of Legends stories. Now I can't be bothered to read them because I know they'll never go anywhere, and the world itself isn't particularly interesting or engaging--in my experience largely due to the lack of narrative weight.

[Dienekes]

I mean, they even pitched ideas themselves when they were defending the change ("The Ice Witch offers him a cure!") but decided it was better to just retcon the story.

Reinboom, this isn't personal against you, but I used to love League of Legends stories. Now I can't be bothered to read them because I know they'll never go anywhere, and the world itself isn't particularly interesting or engaging--in my experience largely due to the lack of narrative weight.

Part of that is because they had their end goal of "ice troll" in advance. And were going to write a story to turn plague troll into ice troll. When, my core complaint here is, he should never have been changed to ice troll in the first place.

[mrcarter11]

And not that I was the original person, but I imagine the relevant quote is found here from Riot Runaan:



I don't think casting that as "lazy writers" is terribly inaccurate, though I can see why that description might chafe.

how much expansion of his story have they done since then

[EternalMelon]

how much expansion of his story have they done since then

Hot take: Open ended stories or a focus on lore sells better in games with large playable casts. Its easier to add or use these open ended building blocks to create whatever situation desired, both for developers and fans. See: Overwatch's "Look at my cool OC" character design and the size of the fandom.

[mrcarter11]

Hot take: Open ended stories or a focus on lore sells better in games with large playable casts. Its easier to add or use these open ended building blocks to create whatever situation desired, both for developers and fans. See: Overwatch's "Look at my cool OC" character design and the size of the fandom.

If you push an update saying this is because a story is complete and we want to be able to tell a story here, it would seem reasonable to expect some sort of continuance to that update. I mean the quote concludes by trying to sell that this is better for trundle players because now more lore can get made for the troll.