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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Is it REALLY evil???

    Recently I’ve brought a group of new players into the D&D world and have, as of last week, made the official jump into the fifth edition. One of my new players is a full blooded Orc Barbarian who was pulled from a parallel universe into our own. His name is Feast and before his unintentional dimensional travel he lived a simple life of hunting and foraging in the woods he called home. He killed and ate whatever he could in order to survive and has never known any sort of community as his village was destroyed when he was very young.
    I pose the title question: “Is it REALLY evil?” because I have recently confronted a mental hurdle that I’m unsure how to approach. You see, Feast kills indiscriminately as he sees fit in order to obtain food. The Orc is 8 feet tall and has quite a gut so is often hungry. His favorite food? Raw meat. He has killed several civilians and even ripped a little girl in half in order to obtain the food he desires (the latter situation has more variables that make it a somewhat confusing argument. I have details if they are desired).
    Now, normally it would be NO QUESTION if those actions were “evil” because of the heartlessness a person would have to possess in order to conceive of that in the first place. However, because of his 100% feral background can these actions be considered evil enough to change Feast’s alignment from Chaotic Neutral to some form of Evil? Some in my group say yes, but Feast’s player insists that Feast is only doing what he has done his entire life. Feast isn’t preforming these actions out of malice or spite or any form of negative emotion. He merely is VERY dumb and a total savage who has never know another sentient creature.
    So, I pose the question to the D&D community: should Feast be forced to change his alignment to some level of Evil? Or is his otherworldly ignorance enough to keep him within the grey area of Chaotic neutrality?
    Talk it up, argue if you must, I want to hear literally everything that anyone has to say on his matter. My group and I are very curious to hear more experienced opinions.


    P.S.
    This is not my first time DMing, but his is my first time that I’ve ever been faced with this quandary.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    To me a person brought up doing evil is still evil even if they are just doing what they've always done.

    So yes I think Feast is evil person who came form a world where evil is normal which is casing the confusion. Normal does not make an action or character neutral.

    For example, If I had a character who came form a world where slavery is normal I would still say slavery is evil.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateWench

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    You might call such behavior "unaligned" if he is truly killing for food. PHB states that creatures like sharks are unaligned rather than evil because they kill for food rather than malice. However, it's definitely not "Chaotic Neutral". In DnD, "good" generally means "I put others before myself", "neutral" is "I put myself before others", and "evil" is "I put myself before others even at the expense of others". Killing someone to eat them would definitively be Chaotic Evil if you feel uncomfortable giving a PC the "unaligned" alignment (usually reserved for nonsentient creatures in this edition). There's even precedent for that ruling - white dragons are described as barely-sentient, animalistic predators and their listed alignment is Chaotic Evil.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Is a tiger evil for eating a human, or is evil just the views of what society dislikes and will not tolerate?

    <argument about D&D black and white alignment ensues>

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Feast sounds like a PC who's going to need quite a bit of coddling by the other PC's whenever they go anywhere that has things he can't kill. While this might be fun for the Player of the Orc Barbarian, it may or may not be fun for the Players of the other PC's. If they have to spend all of their interaction time with this Orc Barbarian who can't keep themselves from killing anyone that happens to wander by at the wrong time (when he's hungry), they might come to resent the Player for forcing them to "give up" their RP time so the Barbarian can perform his RP.

    Also, to answer your question, this is most definitely evil. Just because the dumb Orc doesn't know what he's doing is evil, that doesn't make it not evil. It's as Glen said, this Orc came from a place where evil is accepted. I would drop the alignment from CN to CE.
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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    If he has the capability to understand that his behavior is evil, and doesn't try to change or moderate that behavior, he's evil. Compare to Lizardfolk who are emotionless and certainly capable of murdering and eating others but generally restrain themselves from doing so because they understand that it's objectively destructive behavior.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronCorpse View Post
    One of my new players is a full blooded Orc Barbarian who was pulled from a parallel universe into our own.
    In that case I'd say you should probably contact someone about having evidence of a brand new species. Maybe see about collecting that cash reward for evidence of the supernatural for having an entity from another universe hanging around with you at the D&D table.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronCorpse View Post
    His name is Feast and before his unintentional dimensional travel he lived a simple life of hunting and foraging in the woods he called home. He killed and ate whatever he could in order to survive and has never known any sort of community as his village was destroyed when he was very young.
    I pose the title question: “Is it REALLY evil?” because I have recently confronted a mental hurdle that I’m unsure how to approach. You see, Feast kills indiscriminately as he sees fit in order to obtain food. The Orc is 8 feet tall and has quite a gut so is often hungry. His favorite food? Raw meat. He has killed several civilians and even ripped a little girl in half in order to obtain the food he desires (the latter situation has more variables that make it a somewhat confusing argument. I have details if they are desired).
    I fear for your safety, friend. This Feast fellow is probably going to eat you before too long.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronCorpse View Post
    P.S.
    This is not my first time DMing, but his is my first time that I’ve ever been faced with this quandary.
    Then you should probably know that you don't have to play D&D with 8 foot tall man-eating humanoid monstrosities that are as liable to eat you as they are to roll to attack the darkness.

    Now, if this is about a player character, then you should also know that you don't have to approve of unsuitable characters. This is an obviously unsuitable character, unless you want to play a villainous game where the big stupid fighter actively tries to get them banned from towns and hunted down by anyone and everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by 8wGremlin View Post
    Is a tiger evil for eating a human, or is evil just the views of what society dislikes and will not tolerate?

    <argument about D&D black and white alignment ensues>
    Tigers aren't moral entities in D&D alignment, so they're irrelevant.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2017-10-19 at 05:57 PM.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Chaotic evil if he has done so after the PCs have warned him that you can't kill sapient beings for food. As chaotic evil means "can't control violent impulses." Possibly either neutral or chaotic neutral otherwise as neutral means "go with flow," more-or-less, and chaotic neutral means "puts freedom of self first." But if the other PCs aren't doing anything about it, they're potentially evil or neutral as well.

    Also, where's the angry mob?

    You don't have to change the alignment on the sheet, mind you; there are so few instances in the rules where alignment matters and you can just say that "actual alignment" affects those things, not "character sheet alignment." Reward inspiration for following the written alignment of chaotic neutral.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    If he's truly unable to restrain himself, I'd say he's more unaligned. He doesn't understand anything more complex then hunger = get food. He's unable to make moral or ethical decisions because of his state, then he really is no better then an animal and should have the alignment of such.

    Of course, I'm more curious as to why the party is with a creature that is likely to try to eat them. If he ate a little girl, then the party is going to be on the menu as well. If you haven't already, try to define what is acceptable PvP at the table.
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    While Feast is asleep have another character chop off his hands and feed them to a dog.

    he shouldn't REALLY be mad, after all it's just feeding a dog. And Feast isn't truly sentient if he's ruled entirely by instinct, so it's not even that big a deal!


    (of course it's that big a deal. I think that the players need to have a discussion with him or part ways.)

  11. - Top - End - #11

    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    If he's truly unable to restrain himself, I'd say he's more unaligned. He doesn't understand anything more complex then hunger = get food. He's unable to make moral or ethical decisions because of his state, then he really is no better then an animal and should have the alignment of such.
    Unaligned is for beasts and monstrous creatures that literally lack the ability to tell right from wrong because they literally act on basic animal instincts. Any player character is by definition acting on some sort of logic, even flawed logic and thus is able to be good or evil. The only exception to this I can think of are the basic corporal undead, who could be considered unaligned but are evil because they're animated by inherently evil forces.

    Question for thread starter:

    Out of the OP's scope, why on earth is your table allowing this character?
    Last edited by War_lord; 2017-10-19 at 06:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    Unaligned is for beasts and monstrous creatures that literally lack the ability to tell right from wrong because they literally act on basic animal instincts.
    [QUOTE=TheIronCorpse;22493308Now, normally it would be NO QUESTION if those actions were “evil” because of the heartlessness a person would have to possess in order to conceive of that in the first place. However, because of his 100% feral background can these actions be considered evil enough to change Feast’s alignment from Chaotic Neutral to some form of Evil? Some in my group say yes, but Feast’s player insists that Feast is only doing what he has done his entire life. Feast isn’t preforming these actions out of malice or spite or any form of negative emotion. He merely is VERY dumb and a total savage who has never know another sentient creature.[/QUOTE]

    War_lord, it seems like the player's entire argument to remain neutral is that they are 100% acting on instinct and cannot tell right from wrong. If I am mistaken, another alignment is more valid, but from what I can tell, Feast really is on par with a tiger.

    If Feast is refusing to learn right from wrong...That's a different matter entirely. I'd say that is more evil, because they just don't want to learn that their actions to satisfy their own impulses are somehow wrong. In this case, I also think there is the argument that they would probably know something is wrong because the party is screaming at them.
    Last edited by Honest Tiefling; 2017-10-19 at 06:08 PM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronCorpse View Post
    He merely is VERY dumb and a total savage who has never know another sentient creature.
    If he's so dumb he's not sapient or capable of realising the creatures he's killing are sapient/sentient then you might have an argument. Morality is a social construct - if he's capable of grasping the idea of social constructs then he's culpable to be judged by them.

    I assume he can speak and use weapons and the like so pretty sure he's not that dumb. If he is that dumb then he isn't really PC material - at least not in any sort of normal game.

    My suggestion would be pointing out to the player that you don't survive on your own in the wilderness by being incautious. Perhaps he should treat this new environment with caution and follow the lead of those around him and learn their ways like he learned the ways of the wilderness in which he survived so long.

    Also the definition of CE from the rulebook (emphasis mine):

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB
    Chaotic evil creatures act with arbitrary violence,
    spurred by their greed
    , hatred or bloodlust.
    Kills people because he's hungry? Sounds like our boy.

    That said - is there a particular reason you care what your character has written on the alignment box on his character sheet? Just have the world react to him as it would. I would assume if he's being consistently roleplayed as clueless as you suggest he will be instantly incarcerated/killed when he steals/murders something he shouldn't.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrast View Post
    That said - is there a particular reason you care what your character has written on the alignment box on his character sheet? Just have the world react to him as it would. I would assume if he's being consistently roleplayed as clueless as you suggest he will be instantly incarcerated/killed when he steals/murders something he shouldn't.
    I get the feeling it is not so much the DM, but the other players. Perhaps I am reading into the situation a tad, but I assume that the other players might not be enjoying Feast's antics so much and wish for him to be labelled evil as a way to establish BY THE WAY YOU VIOLENTLY MURDERED A CHILD. If the party can label him as evil, the argument that they should really be trying to circumvent his violent tendencies and stop bringing him to the tavern. But that's really just a guess.
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Snip
    How exactly does the alignment box on his character sheet stop them doing that?

    If the other players characters think his actions make him evil, he is evil to them (regardless of if his character sheet says Chaotic Neutral or Lawful Good).

    When I said have the world react to him as it would, that includes the other players.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    I have to admit, I'm (morbidly) curious as to these "extenuating circumstances" that the OP was talking about that didn't instantly label Feast as CE.

    Honestly, if he's made no effort to change after the first time that the party (presumably) flipped out, then yeah, it's his choice to remain that way and he's definitely Chaotic Evil in my books. If he's making the effort, then he MIGHT be able to cling to Chaotic Neutral.

    EDIT: 95% of these situations, if you have to ask, you already know the answer and you're just trying to justify thinking that she/he/it isn't evil.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrast View Post
    How exactly does the alignment box on his character sheet stop them doing that?
    Probably doesn't, but I imagine some people, even experienced role players, getting a little annoyed at someone insisting that the guy who ate the last quest giver be allowed to have a say in what the party does and not be treated as a danger/giant hindrance.
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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    War_lord, it seems like the player's entire argument to remain neutral is that they are 100% acting on instinct and cannot tell right from wrong. If I am mistaken, another alignment is more valid, but from what I can tell, Feast really is on par with a tiger.

    If Feast is refusing to learn right from wrong...That's a different matter entirely. I'd say that is more evil, because they just don't want to learn that their actions to satisfy their own impulses are somehow wrong. In this case, I also think there is the argument that they would probably know something is wrong because the party is screaming at them.
    And my argument is that if Feast is so unintelligent that he acts 100% on compulsion with no ability to restrain himself or consider the consequences, he's an invalid character akin to wanting to play as a wild lion. You can't play was a wild animal. Even Hill Giants, a race of sentients literally defined by an unending hunger are classed as evil, because they have the ability to tell right from wrong and choose wrong. The average Lizardfolk is Neutral, because although they have a reptile's cold mindset and COULD kill and eat others to survive, they abstain because they're able to understand objectively why said behavior is wrong.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Have you tried selling him on the idea of trading shinies for raw meat at the market? It’s far less effort than hunting/killing for it all the time.

    If he chooses to go with the most painful option rather than the easiest one then yeah, he’s probably motivated by more than just hunger and register as evil.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2017-10-19 at 06:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    I'd say it depends. If over a couple of sessions the character shows signs of learning empathy for others, especially strangers, I'm ok with him not being evil. He's just being an animal really.

    If, however, he does not show any signs of developing empathy, he's the unwitting evil.
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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    And my argument is that if Feast is so unintelligent that he acts 100% on compulsion with no ability to restrain himself or consider the consequences, he's an invalid character akin to wanting to play as a wild lion.
    I agree with the former, that if Feast is 'so dumb' he cannot tell right from wrong, yes, he is like an animal.

    The latter? That part I disagree with. If everyone at the table is enjoying his child-munching antics, then what's the harm in him playing a wild animal? He should however, be aware that doing such is likely to have a lot of consequences. Through if I signed up for a plot-driven game and was expected to cart around Murder McMurderface I'd probably just quit the game as I would find it very hard to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why you're hanging around with a wild lion that actively has displayed a desire to eat your kind.
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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    I agree with the former, that if Feast is 'so dumb' he cannot tell right from wrong, yes, he is like an animal.

    The latter? That part I disagree with. If everyone at the table is enjoying his child-munching antics, then what's the harm in him playing a wild animal? He should however, be aware that doing such is likely to have a lot of consequences. Through if I signed up for a plot-driven game and was expected to cart around Murder McMurderface I'd probably just quit the game as I would find it very hard to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why you're hanging around with a wild lion that actively has displayed a desire to eat your kind.
    Well the question was "Is it evil", and my position is that either Feast lacks that ability to distinguish right from wrong on even a basic level and thus is an unaligned non-sentient that can't logically exist in the party. Or rather could exist with copious handwaving but not rationally in a consistent manner. Or he does possess basic reasoning skills and chooses not to use them, making him consistent but evil.
    Last edited by War_lord; 2017-10-19 at 06:35 PM.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Probably doesn't, but I imagine some people, even experienced role players, getting a little annoyed at someone insisting that the guy who ate the last quest giver be allowed to have a say in what the party does and not be treated as a danger/giant hindrance.
    Yeah sure (I probably would as well).

    I just find the whole idea of forcing someone to change their alignment somewhat silly.

    Lets say I'm playing a goody two shoes and I find out one of the other characters is defrauding an orphanage.

    1) The DM rules the character keeps their neutral alignment. Does that mean my character now has to be ok with it? No.

    2) The DM rules the character shifts to an evil alignment. Does that mean they suddenly have to start being even more 'evil' to live up to their alignment or act different in any fashion whatsoever? No.

    'Forcing' someone to change their alignment like OP suggests does nothing. You need to convince them to change their behaviour out of game if its problematic out of game. If the behaviour isn't problematic - again, why do you care whats written on their character sheet - the occupants of the world don't know what their character sheet says so they should just react based on what they've seen.

    I'm normally a proponent of allowing evil characters because when they're not played as the evil equivalent of lawful stupid they can add a very compelling twist to the narrative. In this case it sounds like the DM should have the guards called immediately and that's assuming the PCs aren't willing to do that job themselves.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    My opinion*:
    By 5e Alignments, this player absolutely should have select the Chaotic Evil Alignment for the PC. Chaotic Evil's typical behavior is "act[s] with arbitrary violence, spurred on by their greed, hatred or bloodlust."

    This character is clearly arbritrarily violent and spurred on by their bloodlust.

    Note that why the PC does it isn't important to 5e Alignment. PC intent is irrelevant. What matters is the Player using it as a motivation to correctly represent the appropriate in-game behavior they want to represent. In other words, it's objective from the players point of view of "I want to play a character that murders creatures violently, specifically in a manner that is arbitrary and bloodthirsty", not the PC's "but it's so I can eat them afterwards".

    If this player wants to represent a bloodthirsty and arbritrarily violent Orc PC, and clearly they do, then the appropriate Alignment to select Chaotic Evil for their Alignment. IMO if they selected anything else they didn't review the 5e Alignments and select the one that fits the persona they wanted to represent in-game.

    *Its my opinion because Alignment behaviors are left open to the player, possibly with DM recommendations based on what's appropriate for their game, as to what 'arbritrarily violence' and 'hatred, greed and bloodlust' mean. But I'm hard pressed to see how indiscriminately slaughtering as he sees fit, including civilians and children, is anything else. That's doing it arbritrarily and bloodlust-ily as far as I am concerned.

    (Edit: it'd be a totally different matter if it were a Human Barbarian slaughtering Orc children of course. That's saving the world. )
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-10-19 at 06:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrast View Post
    I just find the whole idea of forcing someone to change their alignment somewhat silly.
    Oh, no arguments here. I just assumed that's why several players were mentioned as believing it should be changed, not that it would fix a problem that we perceive. I mean, maybe they're all evil PCs and find the idea of having a near-uncontrollable beast they can malipulate into grotesque and violent acts really funny, but sorta want the player aboard the evil train or think that if their characters murder children and are evil, so should Feast.
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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    That's up to a lot of things.

    One thing is for sure, the PC has to start from somewere. So, I'd say that you can start by, for arguement's sake putting him the "Chaotic Evil" alignment, and then, depending on what the player shows you, you can change it; Just because he starts evil, it does not mean he is irependably evil... as you said, he might be evil, because he didn't know how else to act, but influence from the PCs might change him into a chaotic neutral character eventually. Or maybe his RP will suggest he was indeed that dumb that he never had any negative emotion inside of him when he commited those attrocities, and he literally just did them "for food", meaning you can safelly change his alignment to "unaligned". On the other hand, if he shows to enjoy (unessesary) bloodshed a bit too much, you know you went right on the alignment.

    Finally, a piece of advice: Don't worry about starting Alignment too much... In game RP matters the most, and character development will eventually show what Alignment each character really is as sessions progress. Even if a character starts with the wrong alignment, it's not the end of the world, as long as he has an interesting Character development, and contributes to the plot (and not just to combat encounters). This Paralel Universe Orc (Warcraft Inspired I suppose?) can give you a lot of adventure hooks, and make for a very interesting story besides being just the muscles of the party. :)

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    It's also important to note that any good aligned character would probably by their very nature be extremely opposed to these actions. most neutral characters too. You can be neutral and not want to see little kids get eaten. There's even an argument to be made that many or even most evil characters don't want to see that, outside of cartoonish evil-for-evil's sake characters.

    This type of element is similar to the ages old chaotic evil rogue stealing all the party's gold then saying "What I'm just roleplaying my character". Sure - but none of the other characters have to stick around or abide by it. In the case of child mutilation and consumption, There are many characters across all the alignments who would probably draw their weapons upon witnessing this. I can't imagine a non-evil campaign where this type of behaviour goes unchecked by the other characters. even if the players are for some reason not at all bothered by it.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Forced alignment change isn't an attempt to punish the player. Ideally a player should say "well I've done X thing, I better correct my alignment" The concepts of Good verses Evil and Law verses Chaos are actual cosmic forces in the ruleset. A Fairy can still look at your character and tell your character that they're Evil and Chaotic, the sentient races have documented contact with the literal embodiment of the concepts. Alignment isn't words on a sheet, it's not an abstract roleplaying aid, it's as much a part of that character as Gold: 20. It's an objective part of that character that is modified based on their behavior.
    Last edited by War_lord; 2017-10-19 at 06:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by alchahest View Post
    It's also important to note that any good aligned character would probably by their very nature be extremely opposed to these actions. most neutral characters too.
    I'd think that most evil characters are morally opposed to being some creature's dinner. And he probably doesn't even extend his pinky while eating, the despicable fiend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

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    Default Re: Is it REALLY evil???

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    Finally, a piece of advice: Don't worry about starting Alignment too much... In game RP matters the most, and character development will eventually show what Alignment each character really is as sessions progress.
    That's back to front. Worry about starting Alignment, then use it as one of the five personality motivation to drive in game making of decisions for the character (aka roleplaying).

    Alignment is not supposed to be determined by what happens in the game. It's supposed to be part of the persona for the character that inform what the player has them do.

    Edit: one of the problems with these kinds of threads is, they are inherently bass-awkward so. We're being asked to look at actions, and determine the appropriate Alignment motivation. As opposed to look at an alignment and personality motivations, a given scenario, and say "now what actions would I likely have these motivations prompt me to have my PC do in this situation, if it were my PC".

    Even my post upthread suffers from that. I'm looking at the actions and saying this behavior looks like it results from a player using the motivation of "arbritrarily violence" and "bloodthirsty"
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-10-19 at 06:55 PM.

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