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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    This thread shows how we ended up with Pathfinder and how a large portion of the player base demands more and more details and complexity.

    If it takes you longer than 10 minutes to come up with 50 things for players to spend money on (much less 10+hours) go play another game where you can find everything you could possible think up written out for you.

    Seriously, coming to the boards with this type of issue with this type of attitude is just taking steps in the wrong direction.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by gameogre View Post
    This thread shows how we ended up with Pathfinder and how a large portion of the player base demands more and more details and complexity.

    If it takes you longer than 10 minutes to come up with 50 things for players to spend money on (much less 10+hours) go play another game where you can find everything you could possible think up written out for you.

    Seriously, coming to the boards with this type of issue with this type of attitude is just taking steps in the wrong direction.
    Pathfinder, you mean a game with a large fan base that's been successful for many years, based off a system that itself was successful for many years?

    Yeah, that sounds terrible. Horrible.

    And sorry, I guess I should have said that if I wanted to, I could take 10 minutes to throw up any sort of bullcrap I wanted to have players spend money on, but I try to run a quality game, which means anything I try to introduce outside of the rules requires more than 10 minutes. Because I think it through since I know doing so ahead of time saves a lot of time and trouble down the road.

    Just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks is the type of attitude that takes games in the wrong direction and causes players to not stay interested long term.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-10-23 at 09:14 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Meta View Post
    Bodyguards, at least not the ones you can buy with some gold, are not a lot of help (nor is land, titles, or much else) against epic level casters. Maybe if I had a couple of Solars or Gold Dragons on retainer, but at level 13, I do not, and don't imagine many that do.

    You're making a lot of assumption about people's game worlds and seem to not be addressing the existence of BBEGs. What good is health insurance or concubines if the world is ending?
    To add to that, all of those things would cost a fraction of the gold of even one legendary artifact.

    The truth is 5e half-assed a lot of things and "wealth and magic items" is the greatest offender.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-10-23 at 09:21 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Pathfinder, you mean a game with a large fan base that's been successful for many years, based off a system that itself was successful for many years?

    Yeah, that sounds terrible. Horrible.

    And sorry, I guess I should have said that if I wanted to, I could take 10 minutes to throw up any sort of bullcrap I wanted to have players spend money on, but I try to run a quality game, which means anything I try to introduce outside of the rules requires more than 10 minutes. Because I think it through since I know doing so ahead of time saves a lot of time and trouble down the road.

    Just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks is the type of attitude that takes games in the wrong direction and causes players to not stay interested long term.
    Yes Pathfinder! The game is perfectly fine. It caters to a fan base that want everything spelled out for them in as much detail as possible. There is nothing wrong with that. It's fine to like rule heavy games.

    It's also fine to not like them and be a game more rules lite. That is the direction 5E went! It's great! BUT don't play 5E and demand and get upset that it isnt Pathfinder!

    I don't go to the Pathfinder threads and demand they need to cut out all these damn rules!

    edited to add.

    You know attitude has a lot to do with it. If this had been a thread like "I need more crap for my party to spend gold on,you guys wanna help me flush it out? What do you guys do" the thread would have been filled with all kinds of bits to help out the issue. The fact that it's railing against the type of game 5E is and saying this is crap! I think they should have made it a different game! Is the reason you are getting the response you are.
    Last edited by gameogre; 2017-10-23 at 09:28 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    To add to that, all of those things would cost a fraction of the gold of even one legendary artifact.

    The truth is 5e half-assed a lot of things and "wealth and magic items" is the greatest offender.
    I have to disagree with some of that, from a pedantic point of view.

    Mainly the cost difference in people services vs. legendary items. Personally, I have no problems with legendary items being nearly priceless like that. After all, they're supposed to be only a few of them in the world. How much does the Mona Lisa cost vs. the people who guard her?

    I do agree on wealth and magic items in general though. When it takes over a year to create certain spell scrolls or potions, and the same cost as a small business, then there's something wrong. Why would anyone ever create a 9th level spell scroll, for example?

    Quote Originally Posted by gameogre View Post
    Yes Pathfinder! The game is perfectly fine. It caters to a fan base that want everything spelled out for them in as much detail as possible. There is nothing wrong with that. It's fine to like rule heavy games.

    It's also fine to not like them and be a game more rules lite. That is the direction 5E went! It's great! BUT don't play 5E and demand and get upset that it isnt Pathfinder!

    I don't go to the Pathfinder threads and demand they need to cut out all these damn rules!
    Except that it's easier to not use those types of rules if they exist, and hard to create them when they don't.
    I thought 5e was the big "player agency" game. How can you have agency in a system that doesn't give you proper support on what to spend your resources on?
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-10-23 at 09:26 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    A foundation on which to base something on which you may need to modify is better than no foundation or support at all though.
    But a foundation built for your world is worse than useless for my world. They're different worlds. More specifically, having this foundation sets expectations for players that may or may not be able to be met. It also takes time and development resources away from the main selling point of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    And by following this blindly you go back to the OPs issue: That gold is worthless, and this credo actually creates the issue that Malifice stated adventuring for the sake of adventuring, with nothing to do with the spoils. So it sounds more like a 5e issue, not a 3e. So are you saying an ideal 5e campaign for you is nothing but a pack of murder hobos, moving from one slaughter site to another?
    This is a huge straw-man. "Not worrying about the mechanics of owning property" != "a pack of murder hobos, moving from one slaughter site to another." I posted about my party up above. They have tons of money (as in, money is an abstraction at this point), but they have goals that are unrelated to cash or building empires on-screen. They're out preventing forces from the Far Realms from breaking down the walls of reality itself. Why? Because they think they can do something about it,
    and would rather not see reality collapse. For one of them, it's personal. That's a proper adventure to me.

    I've never actually played with a murder hobo. I've never seen one in game, because they're playing people with goals and the game world responds to their actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    And I disagree that Stronghold builders was a distraction from the point of the game. The point of the game is to enjoy yourselves, and some people like building the world they live in, making a lasting contribution to it, not just raiding dungeons, killing stuff, and amassing a horde of coin as if we were dragons and having nothing to do with it. After all, you're seeking "legendary treasure" in 5e... but you have almost nothing you can do with it, unless you can use it to kill or protect yourself from being killed.
    There is benefit to the journey, to the adventure. Possessing the legendary treasure is no more the point of the game than is being at the top of a tall mountain. It's the adventure along the way that is the entire point.

    You want your coin to be a form of alternate mechanical character advancement. Doing so either requires a tightly-enforced WBL table (and all the other mechanics of 3.5 associated with those) or will end up shattering the balance of gameplay. Of course, all those things in 3.5 were a major source of imbalance--WBL-mancy was a thing, after all. It becomes a power treadmill and either a) shatters the assumptions made for challenge balance or b) becomes a minimum threshold required to continue. Both of those are a strong distraction and a negative thing from my perspective. Wealth, status, etc. should have exactly as much effect as you and the DM decide between yourselves makes sense for that situation, at that time.

    How much does a stronghold cost? In the Council Lands, it depends strongly on where you build it, but there's no concept of hereditary nobility. The society is guild-oriented with children assigned to trades based on divination. In Bysia, the idea is silly (due to culture)--it's a pastoral setting. In the Stone Throne, noble caste status can't be bought. It's either hereditary or is gifted based on deeds done. In the Dynasty, you have to be part of one of the dragonborn clans to be a noble.

    That's why having a baseline sets expectations that may or may not be able to be met. It's so strongly setting (and micro-setting) dependent that it's a waste of time for a published work.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    I have to disagree with some of that, from a pedantic point of view.

    Mainly the cost difference in people services vs. legendary items. Personally, I have no problems with legendary items being nearly priceless like that. After all, they're supposed to be only a few of them in the world. How much does the Mona Lisa cost vs. the people who guard her?

    I do agree on wealth and magic items in general though. When it takes over a year to create certain spell scrolls or potions, and the same cost as a small business, then there's something wrong. Why would anyone ever create a 9th level spell scroll, for example?



    Except that it's easier to not use those types of rules if they exist, and hard to create them when they don't.
    I thought 5e was the big "player agency" game. How can you have agency in a system that doesn't give you proper support on what to spend your resources on?
    Because Less is more.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Not for me and thousands of players like me it isn't.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Not for me and thousands of players like me it isn't.
    You are right.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Why would anyone ever create a 9th level spell scroll, for example?
    Player Characters wouldn't. Remember, in 5e NPCs explicitly don't follow the same rules as PCs do. That's by design. Magic item creation rules are for PCs, not NPCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    I thought 5e was the big "player agency" game. How can you have agency in a system that doesn't give you proper support on what to spend your resources on?
    That is a false dichotomy mixed with argument by definition mixed with straw-man. You could say the same thing about games that have an abstract wealth system. "Player agency" means that your actions have consequences in game. That's true. Having support for building a stronghold is completely unrelated to agency. Agency does not require that any possible action have positive outcomes. It's like you're trying to play Call of Cthulhu as a monster-slaying game and getting mad that you keep going horribly horribly insane and dying without slaying any epic monsters.

    Games have specific foci. If you want a system that claims to support certain things, go play one that makes that claim. Don't try to force it into a system that doesn't make that claim (and in fact opposes that claim explicitly).
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    What are you theorycrafting?

    Do you need rules for how awesome it is to be wealthy, and how much advantages it brings, and why most people desire it?

    Isnt that kind of self evident?
    If we don't know what kind of money others make, or the cost of luxuries and services, we have no idea how rich the PCs are or what their wealth allows them to do. In the same way that damage numbers only have meaning when compared to hit points, some economic reference points are needed to contextualize wealth so that players and GMs can determine the players' influence in the world.

    And we don't need to simulate a whole economy for this either: Most of this could be solved with two tables: One outlining the typical monthly earnings and savings of people at different levels of society, the other outlining typical expenses for hirelings, bribes, and entertainment services. The lifestyle rules are almost a nod toward this, but do not give all the necessary details.

    It's well within scope for a sword and sorcery game about finding treasure to feature a price table so PCs can waste their money on women or other luxuries.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2017-10-23 at 09:37 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    But a foundation built for your world is worse than useless for my world. They're different worlds. More specifically, having this foundation sets expectations for players that may or may not be able to be met. It also takes time and development resources away from the main selling point of the game.
    So in other words, you don't need it, so no one needs it? And it doesn't have to take time and development resource away from the main selling point of the game. We aren't talking about having an entire book dedicated to it here, even if I personally would love one.


    This is a huge straw-man. "Not worrying about the mechanics of owning property" != "a pack of murder hobos, moving from one slaughter site to another." I posted about my party up above. They have tons of money (as in, money is an abstraction at this point), but they have goals that are unrelated to cash or building empires on-screen. They're out preventing forces from the Far Realms from breaking down the walls of reality itself. Why? Because they think they can do something about it,
    and would rather not see reality collapse. For one of them, it's personal. That's a proper adventure to me.
    You quoted the PHB blurb. The PHB blurb is pure murder hoboism. "Kill stuff! Take treasure! Kill more stuff! Become powerful!" is a nice paraphrase of the blurb I think. Not a strawman.

    And I'm glad that you like a game where people don't have downtime to actually pursue goals, only running from one emergency to another to break down the walls of reality. But that's not a campaign, that's like you said, an adventure.

    A part of D&D campaigns historically has always been about helping carve your place in the world, and for many that means gaining resources, titles, followers, and lands.

    There is benefit to the journey, to the adventure. Possessing the legendary treasure is no more the point of the game than is being at the top of a tall mountain. It's the adventure along the way that is the entire point.
    And for some the adventure is to become a power in the land, and to defend it. Your preferred style completely craps on someone whose goals may be to do so. My preferred style allows for that as well as your style. If you prefer to have such a narrowly focused game, that's good for you. There are many however who want more from the game, and you can do so without having 3.x levels of complexity involved.

    You want your coin to be a form of alternate mechanical character advancement. Doing so either requires a tightly-enforced WBL table (and all the other mechanics of 3.5 associated with those) or will end up shattering the balance of gameplay. Of course, all those things in 3.5 were a major source of imbalance--WBL-mancy was a thing, after all. It becomes a power treadmill and either a) shatters the assumptions made for challenge balance or b) becomes a minimum threshold required to continue. Both of those are a strong distraction and a negative thing from my perspective. Wealth, status, etc. should have exactly as much effect as you and the DM decide between yourselves makes sense for that situation, at that time.
    No, I want basic guidelines and mechanics that support doing something with resources that you receive as a reward for your adventuring instead of having to pull it out of my pants.

    How much does a stronghold cost? In the Council Lands, it depends strongly on where you build it, but there's no concept of hereditary nobility. The society is guild-oriented with children assigned to trades based on divination. In Bysia, the idea is silly (due to culture)--it's a pastoral setting. In the Stone Throne, noble caste status can't be bought. It's either hereditary or is gifted based on deeds done. In the Dynasty, you have to be part of one of the dragonborn clans to be a noble.

    That's why having a baseline sets expectations that may or may not be able to be met. It's so strongly setting (and micro-setting) dependent that it's a waste of time for a published work.
    Except that you can modify your baseline dependent on the different kingdoms.

    In the council lands, you would get a modifier to cost based on where you built it, since there's no hereditary nobility, dependent on which guild holds sway. In Bysia, you use the basic costs because no one there really cares since it's a pastoral setting. In the Stone Throne location, once you gain a noble title you can use the basic tables for cost. In the Dynasty, once you marry into the dragonborn clans you can use the base cost.

    None of your examples would be negated by the inclusion of basic mechanics being available, and in fact would make the job of creating the strongholds easier once you figure out how to do so legally... or illegally, if your group is so inclined.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Player Characters wouldn't. Remember, in 5e NPCs explicitly don't follow the same rules as PCs do. That's by design. Magic item creation rules are for PCs, not NPCs.
    So in other worlds, NPCs get to do awesome stuff while players don't. There goes that whole "player agency" thing people love about 5e. "Sorry Bob, but despite being 20th level and an archmage, you still can't create the scroll with the efficiency of Elminster back when he was only 18th level." Seems like NPCs in that situation are making more of an impact than a PC.

    That is a false dichotomy mixed with argument by definition mixed with straw-man.
    Where's the Straw Man? People say that Player Agency is huge for 5e. How does the previous item and the magic item creation issue not weaken it?

    You could say the same thing about games that have an abstract wealth system. "Player agency" means that your actions have consequences in game. That's true. Having support for building a stronghold is completely unrelated to agency. Agency does not require that any possible action have positive outcomes. It's like you're trying to play Call of Cthulhu as a monster-slaying game and getting mad that you keep going horribly horribly insane and dying without slaying any epic monsters.
    A player wants to build a stronghold and/or become a noble in the game world. The DM shoots it down because all he cares about is murder-hoboing.

    That's weakening player agency to a degree, in my eyes. Same with making it 10s or 100s of times as difficult and expensive to craft a spell scroll. Again, if you want to play such a narrowly focused game, you can. I prefer a better world myself, one where people can actually play their characters, not just move them through raids or instances. Same reason I don't play AL.

    To me, running a game with that kind of narrow focus is essentially like playing an MMO, and frankly MMOs do it better. Especially since successful MMOs actually allow you to do things that the type of game you're focusing on can't do... (such as building houses/vehicles/bases, creating businesses, etc.)
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-10-23 at 09:45 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    So in other words, you don't need it, so no one needs it? And it doesn't have to take time and development resource away from the main selling point of the game. We aren't talking about having an entire book dedicated to it here, even if I personally would love one.
    There are basic rules. DMG chapter 6, page 128. They're not as detailed as you like, but they're still there.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    You quoted the PHB blurb. The PHB blurb is pure murder hoboism. "Kill stuff! Take treasure! Kill more stuff! Become powerful!" is a nice paraphrase of the blurb I think. Not a strawman.

    And I'm glad that you like a game where people don't have downtime to actually pursue goals, only running from one emergency to another to break down the walls of reality. But that's not a campaign, that's like you said, an adventure.

    A part of D&D campaigns historically has always been about helping carve your place in the world, and for many that means gaining resources, titles, followers, and lands.
    My party has a place in society. There aren't explicit mechanical details associated with it because it happens off-screen. The amount of rules required to do so would be prohibitive.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Except that you can modify your baseline dependent on the different kingdoms.

    In the council lands, you would get a modifier to cost based on where you built it, since there's no hereditary nobility, dependent on which guild holds sway. In Bysia, you use the basic costs because no one there really cares since it's a pastoral setting. In the Stone Throne location, once you gain a noble title you can use the basic tables for cost. In the Dynasty, once you marry into the dragonborn clans you can use the base cost.

    None of your examples would be negated by the inclusion of basic mechanics being available, and in fact would make the job of creating the strongholds easier once you figure out how to do so legally... or illegally, if your group is so inclined.
    No, you don't understand. No one builds individual strongholds in any land except the Stone Throne, and there the political situation is...dicy. As in, you'd be hounded out of town for trying. It's like telling a medieval peasant that you're building an airplane. A character with the goal "Build a fortress and defend it" would not fit in my world. That's fine. Different worlds for different people. But if there's an expectation that those are available, it makes the job harder for everyone else.

    Really. Go read page 131 of the DMG. Specifically the bullet points under "Creating Downtime activities".

    Quote Originally Posted by DMG 131
    If you invent new downtime activities, remember the following:

    * An activity should never negate the need or desire for characters to go on adventures.
    * Activities that have a monetary cost associated with them provide opportunities for player characters to spend their hard-won treasure.
    See that first bullet point--that's the guiding philosophy of the game. The world is there to serve as the stage for adventures. If you don't agree with that philosophy, then play something else that's designed around a different one. Not all games are made for all styles. Find one that fits yours instead of breaking one that fits ours so that it sort-of fits yours.
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    There are basic rules. DMG chapter 6, page 128. They're not as detailed as you like, but they're still there.
    Yes. Which I had noted previously were insufficient for even basic world building, and only apply if you want to have a business that, the majority of the time, will never be able to expand because the profit margins are unrealistic. And don't talk about building strongholds, followers, etc.

    My party has a place in society. There aren't explicit mechanical details associated with it because it happens off-screen. The amount of rules required to do so would be prohibitive.
    Strange how previous editions were able to do so without the rules detailing them becoming prohibitive. Plus the fact that, if they do become a strait jacket for your game, it's much easier for you to remove the rules than it is for myself and thousands like me to spend time creating them from whole cloth.

    No, you don't understand. No one builds individual strongholds in any land except the Stone Throne, and there the political situation is...dicy. As in, you'd be hounded out of town for trying. It's like telling a medieval peasant that you're building an airplane. A character with the goal "Build a fortress and defend it" would not fit in my world. That's fine. Different worlds for different people. But if there's an expectation that those are available, it makes the job harder for everyone else.
    So rather than allow options, you want murder-hobo MMO style D&D where one goes from adventure to adventure only. I got it. Many of us want more from the game, and D&D has provided it before. There's no reason not to now.

    Really. Go read page 131 of the DMG. Specifically the bullet points under "Creating Downtime activities".
    Ok. Creating a stronghold doesn't do either of the things mentioned there. If anyone, it opens up pathways for adventures that the PCs may not have had available to them previously. So... thanks for showing why there should be downtime activities and rules which can help breed adventure?

    See that first bullet point--that's the guiding philosophy of the game. The world is there to serve as the stage for adventures. If you don't agree with that philosophy, then play something else that's designed around a different one. Not all games are made for all styles. Find one that fits yours instead of breaking one that fits ours so that it sort-of fits yours.
    If gaining land and a stronghold can't be used as a stage for adventuring, then you probably aren't trying very hard. And if your campaign doesn't have an opening for strongholds, that doesn't mean that dozens or hundreds of groups out there do have those openings, but can't utilize them because the foundation doesn't exist for them to work off of, and they don't have the time to create it from scratch.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-10-23 at 09:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    That is a false dichotomy mixed with argument by definition mixed with straw-man.

    Dude you can't just say logical fallacies and expect to win an argument. It's just obnoxious.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Fielding an army of 100 soldiers costs a minimum of 6000 gold per month. That's if you provide them with no shelter whatsoever and leave them yo their own devices to forage for food. An effective army of 100 fighting men with food and shelter and an appropriate retinue of skilled and unskilled laborers to support them is going to cost 21, 600 gold per month. A typical 2 year military campaign is going to cost you in the neighborhood of 518, 000 gold.

    And that's just 100 men. If you're fighting a war on the borderlands with an army of expansionist hobgoblins, a temporary army of 1000 mercenaries will cost you 216, 000 gold PER MONTH.
    Last edited by imanidiot; 2017-10-23 at 10:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post

    Strange how previous editions were able to do so without the rules detailing them becoming prohibitive. Plus the fact that, if they do become a strait jacket for your game, it's much easier for you to remove the rules than it is for myself and thousands like me to spend time creating them from whole cloth.



    So rather than allow options, you want murder-hobo MMO style D&D where one goes from adventure to adventure only. I got it. Many of us want more from the game, and D&D has provided it before. There's no reason not to now.



    .
    What do you want here? What are you trying to do? Is it just complain?

    You keep saying"and thousands like me feel the same way" but the truth is the game got MUCH more popular when they chops out these rules you so desperately need and want.

    Hundreds of thousands like ME want a rules lite ish game that doesn't have to spell everything out of the DM. For a vast multitude of reasons we don't want the books cluttered with these type things.

    Your not convincing anyone here that these rules NEED to be included. Only that YOU are not happy that they were not.

    Ok we got that. No we don't agree. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with you wanting that type of information if you need it only that there are plenty of ways to deal with your issue.

    I offered the BEST way in my opinion. To sit down and think up your own.

    If that doesn't work go grab another older editions rules on the matter, or another game systems.

    At some point you are just wailing for the sake of wailing.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by imanidiot View Post
    Fielding an army of 100 soldiers costs a minimum of 6000 gold per month. That's if you provide them with no shelter whatsoever and leave them yo their own devices to forage for food. An effective army of 100 fighting men with food and shelter and an appropriate retinue of skilled and unskilled laborers to support them is going to cost 21, 600 gold per month. A typical 2 year military campaign is going to cost you in the neighborhood of 518, 000 gold.

    And that's just 100 men. If you're fighting a war on the borderlands with an army of expansionist hobgoblins, a temporary army of 1000 mercenaries will cost you 216, 000 gold PER MONTH.
    For real though do people exist who actually want to try to control 100 soldiers in a combat situation?

    As a DM I would absolutely never run that table and as a player I'd go home before I sit through that.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameogre View Post
    I offered the BEST way in my opinion. To sit down and think up your own.

    If that doesn't work go grab another older editions rules on the matter, or another game systems.

    At some point you are just wailing for the sake of wailing.
    It makes zero sense to not have optional rules for this sort of thing. The only reasons to not do it are either the developers weren't talented enough to figure out a way to make it work or else they ran out of time and budget.

    Which, considering the sorry shape the original playtest rules were in, is probably the closest estimate to the truth.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-10-23 at 10:10 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    For real though do people exist who actually want to try to control 100 soldiers in a combat situation?

    As a DM I would absolutely never run that table and as a player I'd go home before I sit through that.



    It makes zero sense to not have optional rules for this sort of thing. The only reasons to not do it are either the developers weren't talented enough to figure out a way to make it work or else they ran out of time and budget.

    Which, considering the sorry shape the original playtest rules were in, is probably the closest estimate to the truth.
    Just because you don't see the sense doesn't mean it's not there.

    Edited to add.

    but again, How can this thread help you? What are you wanting from us your fellow posters?
    Last edited by gameogre; 2017-10-23 at 10:12 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    That's not an argument.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    That's not an argument.
    I'm not trying to argue!

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Then why are you here?

    Like for real your participation in this dialog is not adding anything.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Then why are you here?

    Like for real your participation in this dialog is not adding anything.
    ok check! You guys are just wanting to Wail and scream! got it. I'm happy to ignore it and let you yell into the night!

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    So in other worlds, NPCs get to do awesome stuff while players don't. There goes that whole "player agency" thing people love about 5e. "Sorry Bob, but despite being 20th level and an archmage, you still can't create the scroll with the efficiency of Elminster back when he was only 18th level." Seems like NPCs in that situation are making more of an impact than a PC.
    NPCs don't follow PC rules because PC rules are for adventurers. That is a core assumption of 5e. This is not 3.x where the rules try to be physics engine for the entire would. Rather, the rules simply try and facilitate standard play, and standard play assumes PCs are adventurers. If you are an adventurer, you are not a dedicated craftsman, and thus are not going to be able to make things as fast. And if you want to be a craftsman... find another game, because craftsmen are not adventurers, and 5e is about adventurers.

    This is not stretching believability. It's not saying that a character who is "you, but an NPC" can craft better than you. It's simply saying that someone built like a PC is focused on adventuring, first and foremost, and any other talents they have will not compare to people as dedicated to their trade as PCs are to adventuring.
    Last edited by jas61292; 2017-10-23 at 10:19 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by gameogre View Post
    What do you want here? What are you trying to do? Is it just complain?

    You keep saying"and thousands like me feel the same way" but the truth is the game got MUCH more popular when they chops out these rules you so desperately need and want.
    Which changes the fact that many still want these rules how...?

    EDIT: Also, I'm curious to see what the actual total sales of 3.x books (not just the PHB, whose content was OGL and thus available for everyone) is compared to 5e books. Both with and without Pathfinder included.

    Hundreds of thousands like ME want a rules lite ish game that doesn't have to spell everything out of the DM. For a vast multitude of reasons we don't want the books cluttered with these type things.

    Your not convincing anyone here that these rules NEED to be included. Only that YOU are not happy that they were not.
    Just me? Strange, since this entire thread started because someone else wanted these rules included. Which is it? Thousands of people like me? Or just me?

    At some point you are just wailing for the sake of wailing.
    I'm not the one taking personal offense because someone is talking about wanting options on what to do with a common reward in a game system with very little to nothing to spend it on.

    Quote Originally Posted by gameogre View Post
    I'm not trying to argue!
    No. You seem to be trying to force everyone to play your way, instead of allowing for the fact that added rule complexity, or even something basic to spend tens of thousands of gold pieces on may make for a better game.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-10-23 at 10:26 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    So your characters only adveture to get money to buy stuff to adventure better?

    How implausable.

    Why arent they spending money on what real people would?

    Wine, women, affluence and so forth?

    Does your PC (for some inexplicable reason) not want to be wealthy, with all the perks that brings?
    Most of the "perks" of having money would involve no longer adventuring.... At least, that's what most real people would do.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    NPCs don't follow PC rules because PC rules are for adventurers. That is a core assumption of 5e. This is not 3.x where the rules try to be physics engine for the entire would. Rather, the rules simply try and facilitate standard play, and standard play assumes PCs are adventurers. If you are an adventurer, you are not a dedicated craftsman, and thus are not going to be able to make things as fast. And if you want to be a craftsman... find another game, because craftsmen are not adventurers, and 5e is about adventurers.

    This is not stretching believability. It's not saying that a character who is "you, but an NPC" can craft better than you. It's simply saying that someone built like a PC is focused on adventuring, first and foremost, and any other talents they have will not compare to people as dedicated to their trade as PCs are to adventuring.
    Except that your argument is invalid when an adventuring NPC wizard is able to make the 9th level spell scroll just as easily as the dedicated craftsman... who is also capable of casting 9th level spells somehow.

    I'm not saying it needs to be at the level of 3.x rulesets, but yes, I would expect that a game where X occurs, X is achievable by both PC and NPCs.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    I don't have a clue if this holds ANY interest for you or helps in any way. I just thought of it while about 2 seconds after I left the thread. It doesn't fit every Dm's ideas about what to spend money on but I thought if you had never seen it it might help you out some. Maybe not!
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ic-Item-Prices

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    For real though do people exist who actually want to try to control 100 soldiers in a combat situation?

    As a DM I would absolutely never run that table and as a player I'd go home before I sit through that.
    Mass combat rules are a thing in games that try to include it. I imagine 5e will get its own half-hearted attempt someday, though there are proven approaches one could borrow from other games, like treating units on a high level sort of like individual monsters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Squinty View Post
    Most of the "perks" of having money would involve no longer adventuring.... At least, that's what most real people would do.
    Most real people wouldn't hurl themselves into the claws of a dragon, either
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2017-10-23 at 10:28 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    EvilAnagram's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    What's wrong with the current pricing of magic items?

    I enjoy seeing my players scrape together every scrap of wealth they have acquired to buy an Oathbow for the Ranger after the merchant agrees to sell it at half price for a favor. Why, my players just walked away with one rare and two uncommon magic items, plus a healing potion. It only cost them everything they had and some solid rolls, and now they feel much better going into the last leg of the campaign, where told riches await (told riches are much more reliable than untold riches).

    I like how difficult it is to acquire a decent magic item. It makes them much more rewarding when the players get them.

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