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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    It's strange though- people are fine with it when it comes to stuff like "I don't use swords but want to look like I'm using one, can I refluff a hand-axe?" and "I want to have a monk use longswords, but I don't want to be a Kensei, can I refluff a shortsword as a longsword?" but not when it comes to people wanting to have something more than "Go here. Kill this. Take that. Wash, rinse, repeat."
    Who says those are the same people?

    Oh, you're assuming it, because it backs up your righteous fury of a game built for high adventure, exploration, and risk-taking doesn't have fully realized rules for hiding away in a safe place, sitting on your ass behind a crafting table, doing a repetitive task.

    It's funny how different tables can be. Mine, all we had to do was say 'D&D is about adventurers and risk-takers, the original game even assumed all gold you earned was lost between adventures due to partying hard.' And they said, 'Cool!'

    One person asked about crafting, and I said 'the rules are pretty clear for consumable stuff like potions, but anything more becomes an epic quest that's - you guessed it - another hook to go out on a death defying adventure!' and they said 'Cool!'.

    Then I said, 'there's a certain point you'll run out of ways to spend money, and when you do, think of ways you can spend it that reinforce your character's goals and aspirations, and us DMs will figure out a way to have that benefit you.' And you'll never guess what they said. And nobody bitched about wanting to know absolutely specific rules they could optimize against.

    5E is a throwback towards earlier editions, before an attempt was made to turn it into a cohesive fantasy world simulation engine. Now, it's just a game.

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    And, who said it's always about murder hobos? I'm playing in a Jack the Ripper murder mystery. My Druid is turning into a Bloodhound to sniff out tracks, our Warlock is using Sense Thoughts while Bard asks dumb-sounding questions designed to elicit surface thoughts that reveal what we're actually looking for. No combat. No murder, no pillaging. Only teamwork, lots of Skill checks, clever spells, and creativity.
    Last edited by Beelzebubba; 2018-08-04 at 08:08 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    Probably 90% of the problems people have with D&D is trying to force a game style that is better served by other systems. There is a reason a monumental variety of very specific systems exist: to achieve specific design goals that other systems do not meet. Do your research and play a game that isn't designed around wilderness and dungeon adventures. It's not a hard concept.

    People who want to raid dark forests and volcanos while killing monsters during a resource grinding adventuring day, here's D&D.
    😇 thank you.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    Probably 90% of the problems people have with D&D is trying to force a game style that is better served by other systems. There is a reason a monumental variety of very specific systems exist: to achieve specific design goals that other systems do not meet. Do your research and play a game that isn't designed around wilderness and dungeon adventures. It's not a hard concept.
    D&D definitely gets shoehorned into campaigns it has no business seeing (spacefaring science fiction being my personal bugbear), but that 90% sounds high. There's questionable design even within D&D's niche, and I'm willing to class some of the problems regarding D&D being used where it's ill suited on D&D.

    The system breaking down when it is used for something it clearly isn't for is one thing, the system breaking down when used as a general fantasy game when that's how it's presented is another. If D&D was just presented as a wilderness and dungeon adventure game it wouldn't get these criticisms.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    What does all this talk of supply and demand have to do with the price of milk?
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Personally, I don't see any problem with the 5e treasure system, and I nearly did not reply to this thread, but there is something that need to be said regarding the "magic item crafting" side-debate.

    To even be able to craft ONE specific magic item aside from the more common stuff, you need to know its formula. Learning a formula IN ITSELF is worth its own adventure, more often than not, and figuring one yourself from the ground up is more or less implied to be a years-long process

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee_Dragon View Post
    What does all this talk of supply and demand have to do with the price of milk?
    What does supply and demand have to do with the price of milk? Well.... everything

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    What does supply and demand have to do with the price of milk? Well.... everything

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    The system breaking down when it is used for something it clearly isn't for is one thing, the system breaking down when used as a general fantasy game when that's how it's presented is another. If D&D was just presented as a wilderness and dungeon adventure game it wouldn't get these criticisms.
    Oh yeah, there is definite fault in WotC's marketing, advertising it as a ""tell any story you want!" system, which is a blatent lie.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    D&D definitely gets shoehorned into campaigns it has no business seeing (spacefaring science fiction being my personal bugbear), but that 90% sounds high. There's questionable design even within D&D's niche, and I'm willing to class some of the problems regarding D&D being used where it's ill suited on D&D.

    The system breaking down when it is used for something it clearly isn't for is one thing, the system breaking down when used as a general fantasy game when that's how it's presented is another. If D&D was just presented as a wilderness and dungeon adventure game it wouldn't get these criticisms.
    When exactly does it break down as a general fantasy game? I've run pirate campaigns, city campaigns, classic dungeon delvers, and creepy fairytales without any trouble from the system.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    Oh yeah, there is definite fault in WotC's marketing, advertising it as a ""tell any story you want!" system, which is a blatent lie.
    I've never actually seen such marketing for 5e. The actual product blurbs (like I posted) don't seem to contain any. The books are very explicit about the nature of the game--the game is about adventurers doing heroic adventures. The story paths are the same. Do you have an example of 5e marketing that portrays it as a "do any fantasy" system?
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by lkwpeter View Post
    Hey there,

    we are currently at the very end of the campaign "Princes of the Apocalypse". Our characters are level 13 and we have dozens of thousands of gold, but we don't know on what to spend our money.
    Asking the question no one else has asked ... how on earth have you got so much money! My players are halfway through PotA and have about 100gp to rub together. I know that people talk about 5E having reasonably plentiful money and nothing to spend it on, but either you are economic geniuses or my players are gold-blind.

    I've gone through PotA and added up every single piece of treasure in every single Treasure entry in the book, including the side-treks and optional areas, and it comes to 62k, though of that an incredible 20k is on the floor of lakes and pools, 5k is in the Dwarf King's tomb, and 12k is on Aerisi's body. Assuming that you don't loot every body of water and the Queen's body that comes out as 25k treasure, so to have dozens of thousands you must have almost every bit of money in the entire adventure — every chair, tapestry, utensil, gem, coin, pocket contents.

    I am in awe of your party's gold gathering prowess :D

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I've never actually seen such marketing for 5e.
    Honestly I haven't seen ANY marketing for 5e, (does Hasbro even advertise D&D?)but I'm assuming it's advertised that way judging by how few people understand what they're purchasing. I guess those go hand in hand .. But yes, the actual books make it fairly clear that it's about exploration and fighting monsters.

    Of course, judging by the adventures they print, they don't understand their own system either way.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post

    A simulacrum is incredibly expensive all by itself, and it does not reduce the cost of creating magic items at all. Time, certainly, but not cost.
    The items are made to be sold. The simulacrums demand an upfront cost but would pay for themselves after 1 month. Greater Healing Potions sell for more than double their creation cost with a mediocre Persuasion. A spellcaster who saves up a couple thousand GP to start the chain would end supplying the whole world if there was demand. Sounds like a fun story hook, actually.

    EDIT: We added the rule that one time consumables sell for 1/5 of their rarity counterparts. Multi-use consumables sell for 1/2.
    Last edited by Meta; 2017-10-23 at 06:00 PM. Reason: Adding house rules
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    I highly prioritize immersion in my games, in the sense that I want the players to feel like their characters are tightly enmeshed in the fabric of the game world. Money is something that most people in the game world value highly. Accordingly, I want most characters to also value it highly. I could simply expect the players to roleplay valuing money highly, but I find it far more enjoyable for everyone when the players' motivations and the characters' motivations align: it is, after all, a game, and not just a roleplaying exercise. Thus, I want the players to value (IC) money too.

    In order for the players to value IC money, they have to have something fun to *do* with that money. Individual player preferences vary a lot: some might want mechanical upgrades for their characters, others might want to invest in their characters' social capital, still others might want to make grand gestures with their wealth and see a noticable impact on the game world. As written, 5e leaves all such uses for wealth entirely in the hands of the DM. That is disappointing. I would have preferred guidelines with exciting examples of using wealth (including those that gave mechanical bonuses and those that didn't) and corresponding prices, both to provide a reference point for pricing other ideas the players have and also to serve as inspiration for those ideas.

    Wizards did try to include prices for magic items, but since they're entirely based on supply (i.e. rarity) and ignore demand (i.e. utility), they appear illogical to me and my players, thus damaging our immersion far more than they help it.

    And no, I'm not worried about creating a gear treadmill at my table by permitting players to spend money to increase their combat effectiveness. I managed to avoid one in 3.5, and I certainly haven't had a problem avoiding one in 5e either. Mostly it's because I completely ignore CR: partially because I run semi-sandboxes where encounter difficulty isn't always tied to party level, and partially because with decades of DMing experience, I'm comfortable eyeballing encounter difficulty. I fully understand how groups that do use CR can run into a gear treadmill problem--it just happens not to be a factor at my table.

    I still bought the books and support 5e. But I would have liked the system even more if it had had a few more pages with sensible prices for awesome and inspiring examples of ways to use the characters' accumulated wealth.

    Edit: Such prices would also usefully provide a baseline for determining how much NPC patrons might value the PC's adventuring prowress, and thus what rewards and compensation they might offer.
    Last edited by Xetheral; 2017-10-23 at 06:11 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    5e expects you to track the precise number of coins you have in five different denominations, plus gems. That's acceptable in an economic simulator; it's incredibly irritating when the money is largely pointless pas the first few levels.
    That's so players have to deal with variable value, at the same weight. Great, you found 5000 cp, 500 sp, and 50gp. But until you have a couple of hours free in a non-dangerous place, you're hauling out 111 lbs of treasure, not 11 lbs of gold and silver. Similarly, there's a huge difference between a 30 lb ivory statue and a .02 lb gem, even though they both are valued at 50gp.

    Of course, if you really don't care about dealing with the logistics side of low level dungeon & adventuring site crawling, it becomes pointless again. But to me that's like complaining that money is useless at high levels. Of course its useless if you don't care about raising armies, building strongholds, bribing NPCs, or all the other things that a traditional part of high level D&D.

    Edit: Also dumping absolutely ludicrous amounts of gold into spell research and magic item development. And stipends for henchmen. And training co... oh wait, that one was actually broken math. Never mind.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-10-23 at 06:14 PM.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    Honestly I haven't seen ANY marketing for 5e, (does Hasbro even advertise D&D?)but I'm assuming it's advertised that way judging by how few people understand what they're purchasing. I guess those go hand in hand .. But yes, the actual books make it fairly clear that it's about exploration and fighting monsters.

    Of course, judging by the adventures they print, they don't understand their own system either way.
    Based on my (limited) experience, most of the people claiming D&D as a "generic" or "general fantasy" system have prior experience, mostly with 3e. 4e certainly wasn't marketed as such, and I'm too young to have known how OD&D, AD&D, and 2e were marketed. 3e had pretensions of being a generic system (the d20 system) and included lots of splat stuff toward that end. From what I can tell, the generic parts that worked best were the ones that only used the core of the d20 system (resolution mechanics, feats, and the idea of race/level/class) and rewrote all the content.

    The only truly generic systems I'm aware of are either a) highly abstracted and only technology-level agnostic, not genre agnostic (FATE has specific recommendations for the type of game that makes a "FATE game", for example) or b) very modular (GURPS springs to mind here). The type b) ones like GURPS are designed such that all the pieces are opt-in and come in packages that generally work together. It's still more a system-building toolkit rather than a buy-and-play system. 5e is neither of these and makes it very clear as to what it intends to be. I can't blame the system if people don't actually read the printed material.

    All in all, I think more players would do well to seriously read the DMG and intro to the PHB and decide whether they want to accept the guiding philosophy of 5e or whether they'd be better off playing something else. Trying to hack a system in a way that goes against the primary philosophy will not go well. And 5e has a very different philosophy than earlier editions did. Those old-edition assumptions and thought patterns cause so much disruption and dislike, as opposed to understanding what 5e set out to do and (just as importantly) what it didn't set out to do. Judging it on something it never tried or claimed to do is unfair at best.
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post

    Wizards did try to include prices for magic items, but since they're entirely based on supply (i.e. rarity) and ignore demand (i.e. utility), they appear illogical to me and my players, thus damaging our immersion far more than they help it.
    Even a single 2nd level scroll is already a luxury item that's worth months of wealthy lifestyle. Demand for most magical items is more like demand for rare collector cars or tailor-made jewelry than anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    Edit: Such prices would also usefully provide a baseline for determining how much NPC patrons might value the PC's adventuring prowress, and thus what rewards and compensation they might offer.
    Like, "how much does the king offer them to kill a dragon" ?

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Even a single 2nd level scroll is already a luxury item that's worth months of wealthy lifestyle. Demand for most magical items is more like demand for rare collector cars or tailor-made jewelry than anything.
    I disagree. I think a better demand model would be the demand amongst professional musicians for high-quality musical instruments (for items granting mechanical bonuses) or infrastructure/public works/high-end housing (for items granting quality-of-life perks). The comparisons you provided would yield prices based more on prestige than function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Like, "how much does the king offer them to kill a dragon" ?
    Yes, although that particular example has an element of desperation to it that may inflate the price. Having a point of comparison is more useful when determing the going rate for purely-voluntary missions. For example, when determining how much a noble might be willing to pay to recover an heirloom from an infested family tomb, knowing the price it would cost that noble for something they value similarly (e.g. a tournament or festival or addition to their manor house--individual preferences will vary) would be extremely useful.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    I disagree. I think a better demand model would be the demand amongst professional musicians for high-quality musical instruments (for items granting mechanical bonuses) or infrastructure/public works/high-end housing (for items granting quality-of-life perks). The comparisons you provided would yield prices based more on prestige than function.
    While the magic items are generally useful, they're more useful like a race car: a very performant tool, the best to do its specific job, but in the end something that is too expensive for most and will probably only be used to compete with those in the same circle and to increase the prestige of the user/owner.

    I know it's not the best metaphor, but the idea is basically: magic items do have a function, and they can do it well, but they're also prestige/luxury items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    Yes, although that particular example has an element of desperation to it that may inflate the price. Having a point of comparison is more useful when determing the going rate for purely-voluntary missions. For example, when determining how much a noble might be willing to pay to recover an heirloom from an infested family tomb, knowing the price it would cost that noble for something they value similarly (e.g. a tournament or festival or addition to their manor house--individual preferences will vary) would be extremely useful.
    I'm sorry, I don't see how a tournament or a festival is equivalent to "go risk your life in this infested death-trap and bring me back this particular item". If anything it'd be closer to the cost of sending a military unit to go fight a battle.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't see how a tournament or a festival is equivalent to "go risk your life in this infested death-trap and bring me back this particular item". If anything it'd be closer to the cost of sending a military unit to go fight a battle.
    If the noble would value the festival and the retrieval of heirloom similarly, then, by definition, he'd be willing to pay the same price for them. For such a noble, knowing the cost of throwing a festival would help the DM decide what the noble would be willing to pay for a retrieval mission.

    By contrast, another noble might hate festivals, but would similarly value retrieval of this heirloom to adding a library to his manor house. For that noble, knowing the price of adding a library to a manor house would help the DM decide what the noble would be willing to pay for a retrieval mission.

    And so on and so forth.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    If the noble would value the festival and the retrieval of heirloom similarly, then, by definition, he'd be willing to pay the same price for them. For such a noble, knowing the cost of throwing a festival would help the DM decide what the noble would be willing to pay for a retrieval mission.

    By contrast, another noble might hate festivals, but would similarly value retrieval of this heirloom to adding a library to his manor house. For that noble, knowing the price of adding a library to a manor house would help the DM decide what the noble would be willing to pay for a retrieval mission.

    And so on and so forth.
    So you want the game to list what various people value differently based on their personal preferences ?

    After all, taking the reverse of your exemples, if someone suggested adding adding a library to his house to the first noble, he might think it's worth 150gp because he doesn't really care about it but it'd make him look good, while the second would dismiss a festival as empty frivolity and only spend the bare minimum on the festivities and only do it when the traditions force his hand.

    Saying "X adventuring patron values the adventurers accomplishing this task as much as they value Y thing that cost money" seems to be a pretty awkward way to judge reward, IMO. Why not say "this guild master values the adventurers accomplishing this task as much as they value 10 bottle of good wine" or "this noble values s the adventurers accomplishing this task as much as they value 3 pigs and a war horse."

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    So you want the game to list what various people value differently based on their personal preferences ?
    I would have preferred if the game had listed more examples of what certain big-ticket items cost so that DMs can use them as a benchmark for gauging the value of money to NPCs, and thus have a more consistant framework for setting prices for things not listed in the books (including prices NPCs would pay for the PC's adventuring services). Also, such a list can provide inspiration for both the DM and the players for other awesome ways to spend money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Saying "X adventuring patron values the adventurers accomplishing this task as much as they value Y thing that cost money" seems to be a pretty awkward way to judge reward, IMO. Why not say "this guild master values the adventurers accomplishing this task as much as they value 10 bottle of good wine" or "this noble values s the adventurers accomplishing this task as much as they value 3 pigs and a war horse."
    Judging it in terms of wine and pigs and horses is exactly the same thing, just in smaller denominations.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Meta View Post
    The items are made to be sold. The simulacrums demand an upfront cost but would pay for themselves after 1 month. Greater Healing Potions sell for more than double their creation cost with a mediocre Persuasion. A spellcaster who saves up a couple thousand GP to start the chain would end supplying the whole world if there was demand. Sounds like a fun story hook, actually.

    EDIT: We added the rule that one time consumables sell for 1/5 of their rarity counterparts. Multi-use consumables sell for 1/2.
    The margin is paper-thin, if it exists at all.

    Let's look at the upfront cost: 1500 for a simulacrum. You can't have more than one simulacrum at a time, so that's it. Simulacrums of simulacrums are explicitly forbidden in AL, and the only sage advice I've seen also kaputs the idea.

    So you get one guy, max, who can make potions over the course of 20 days for 500 gold. You can help your simulacrum, so it comes to 500 gold and ten days to make a potion. After day 10, you go out and try to sell that potion while he keeps making more.

    And it doesn't sell.

    The highest HP a common soldier or grunt will have is around 22. Most monstrous humanoid warriors have about that, and most people have less. Like, 95% of the population would be well-served by a standard healing potion, which means that they are better-served by a standard healing potion because it's 10x cheaper. You know what they say, 450 gold saved is literally a year's profit for a fairly successful business earned.

    So, 95% of people won't want what you're selling, but adventurers will! 5e is using Faerun as the default, so there are plenty of those guys around. Yes, the best of the best. The guys at the end of Volo's. The NPCs with the most HP, the highest wisdom, the... most potential to retaliate when they realize you've been ripping them off...

    Huh.

    Well, let's say you're living dangerously! You wait 1d10 days for a suitable customer to come along, roll a Persuasion check, and realize he doesn't have nearly that much money.

    Oh, yeah. Adventurers with cash.

    So every 2d10 days, you get a group of adventurers with enough cash to spend on a stupidly expensive potion. Depending on a series of opposed checks, you might make a sale. You probably succeed on a 50% markup maybe half the time, if your DM is somewhat generous. That means you're pulling in 750 GP every 22 days, and putting in 500 GP every 20 days.

    You'll have upswings and downswings, but they'll mostly be downswings because you only ever have a stock of one or two overpriced potions, and you'll get a reputation for it. Still, let's say we can rely on you making 750 gold every 22 days while you're spending 500 gold every 20 days. You'll make a profit after roughly seven and a half months.

    So, you'll probably want enough money for about 8 months of living expenses on top of the 2000 gold to actually start the business.

    Also, you're now spending all your time in a market hawking overpriced wares. You'll probably want to diversify your offerings because over time people will notice your profit margin and undersell you, sell better products, or just won't buy your overpriced garbage. You should probably also have a few thousand put away for precisely this.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    I want to be clear about something: Meta's simulacrum plan is a bad plan because it's a get-rich quick scheme. It relies on people doing what he wants them to do because he wants them to do it. "I'll just roll a good persuasion roll and it will make all my money back!" Get-rich quick schemes don't work because people don't want to be screwed over by your obvious ploy.

    If you really want to make money selling potions, it takes work.

    You start the game with an Herbalism Kit, and you make a Potion of Healing. Most importantly, you ask the DM, "Where does the 50 gold go?" He'll probably tell you that it goes towards getting some herbs, so you say, "What herbs?" At this point, the DM will be a little annoyed and try to avoid the question, but you need to be insistent. Ask again, saying you'd like some names, even if he pulls it out of his butt. Write down the names of every herb involved.

    Later, after you make a good chunk of change, make a Potion of Greater Healing, and you ask if there are any other ingredients that weren't in the Potion of Healing. Write down any that the DM mentions.

    Around level 7 or 8, you should be completing a quest that leads to a windfall of coin. While everyone else is spending theirs, you should save yours. Save up around 1,030 gold and buy a farm. A town costs 5,000 gold, so a farm should be well within that budget. You could probably get one for 500, but 1,000 at most. If it trends higher, grab another 500 gold before looking to buy. The farm will cost 5 sp a day in upkeep, with three hands, so you should account for that from now on. Plant herbs required for making a Potion of Healing, and cast Plant Growth once per year per square mile. Congratulations, you are now producing more ingredients for healing potions at a fraction of the price of all your competitors. The only material cost should be the 15 gold a month it costs to maintain your farm. You're producing a Potion of Healing every ten days, which you can sell at a discount price of 40 gold for a 35 gold profit. You're in the black by the end of the year with a more consistent customer base. Hell, you have more room to drop the price than anyone in Faerun history. Everywhere else a PoH is 50 gold, but you could sell it at 25 for a 500% profit. Those things will fly off the shelves, and your crop yield is guaranteed because of Plant Growth. You could sell to merchants and become the preferred supplier in the region, or you could sell directly to customers and let them benefit from those sweet, sweet savings.

    Of course, now your friends are all gathering with you once a week for you to play Harvest Moon.

    Edit: You can also sell excess herbs to your competitors if you produce more than you can utilize. Once you attain a solid cushion and have established that demand is high enough, hire another hand. Selling 6 PoHs a month is better than six, and if you're paying him 15 gold a month to make potions you're still making bank off his efforts, and he'll be making a pretty penny at a nine-to-five that gives him plenty of free time to pursue his other interests, which he's sure to have as an apprentice alchemist.

    Eventually, you'll be hiring a few more alchemists at that rate and expanding your farm. You'll be casting Plant Growth every month or so, and you'll be managing the business, but you'll have freed up a lot of your time. There will have been pushback from entrenched merchants, but your strategy of vertical integration would have led you to undercut their prices and buy their stalls out from under them. Offering a variety of potions and antitoxins, you'll be able to expand your business to franchises across the Sword Coast.

    Around this time, Meta's wizard will have hit level thirteen and begun the process of creating a simulacrum to make PoGHs at extortionate prices. Of course, selling at cost would still make them more expensive than the ones you sell (400 gold, and the whole farm costs you less than that a year), so no one buys his potions.
    Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2017-10-23 at 09:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    I want to be clear about something: Meta's simulacrum plan is a bad plan because it's a get-rich quick scheme. It relies on people doing what he wants them to do because he wants them to do it. "I'll just roll a good persuasion roll and it will make all my money back!" Get-rich quick schemes don't work because people don't want to be screwed over by your obvious ploy.

    If you really want to make money selling potions, it takes work.

    You start the game with an Herbalism Kit, and you make a Potion of Healing. Most importantly, you ask the DM, "Where does the 50 gold go?" He'll probably tell you that it goes towards getting some herbs, so you say, "What herbs?" At this point, the DM will be a little annoyed and try to avoid the question, but you need to be insistent. Ask again, saying you'd like some names, even if he pulls it out of his butt. Write down the names of every herb involved.

    Later, after you make a good chunk of change, make a Potion of Greater Healing, and you ask if there are any other ingredients that weren't in the Potion of Healing. Write down any that the DM mentions.

    Around level 7 or 8, you should be completing a quest that leads to a windfall of coin. While everyone else is spending theirs, you should save yours. Save up around 1,030 gold and buy a farm. A town costs 5,000 gold, so a farm should be well within that budget. You could probably get one for 500, but 1,000 at most. If it trends higher, grab another 500 gold before looking to buy. The farm will cost 5 sp a day in upkeep, with three hands, so you should account for that from now on. Plant herbs required for making a Potion of Healing, and cast Plant Growth once per year per square mile. Congratulations, you are now producing more ingredients for healing potions at a fraction of the price of all your competitors. The only material cost should be the 15 gold a month it costs to maintain your farm. You're producing a Potion of Healing every ten days, which you can sell at a discount price of 40 gold for a 35 gold profit. You're in the black by the end of the year with a more consistent customer base. Hell, you have more room to drop the price than anyone in Faerun history. Everywhere else a PoH is 50 gold, but you could sell it at 25 for a 500% profit. Those things will fly off the shelves, and your crop yield is guaranteed because of Plant Growth. You could sell to merchants and become the preferred supplier in the region, or you could sell directly to customers and let them benefit from those sweet, sweet savings.

    Of course, now your friends are all gathering with you once a week for you to play Harvest Moon.

    Edit: You can also sell excess herbs to your competitors if you produce more than you can utilize. Once you attain a solid cushion and have established that demand is high enough, hire another hand. Selling 6 PoHs a month is better than six, and if you're paying him 15 gold a month to make potions you're still making bank off his efforts, and he'll be making a pretty penny at a nine-to-five that gives him plenty of free time to pursue his other interests, which he's sure to have as an apprentice alchemist.

    Eventually, you'll be hiring a few more alchemists at that rate and expanding your farm. You'll be casting Plant Growth every month or so, and you'll be managing the business, but you'll have freed up a lot of your time. There will have been pushback from entrenched merchants, but your strategy of vertical integration would have led you to undercut their prices and buy their stalls out from under them. Offering a variety of potions and antitoxins, you'll be able to expand your business to franchises across the Sword Coast.

    Around this time, Meta's wizard will have hit level thirteen and begun the process of creating a simulacrum to make PoGHs at extortionate prices. Of course, selling at cost would still make them more expensive than the ones you sell (400 gold, and the whole farm costs you less than that a year), so no one buys his potions.
    Your DM (you?) can do whatever they like, but my plan is entirely feasible RAW to the best of my knowledge. Please link any sources you have that say otherwise. You wrote a dozen paragraphs about supply and demand that aren't rules, just how you handle things. That's great for your table, hope it's fun!

    But it doesn't change the fact that what I wrote is entirely rules legal and would gain you 1000+ GP per month per Simulacrum. I'm happy to show the math and cite the UA.

    The actual written rules of the game are going to be more relevant than your 'verisimilitude' or whatever to every other poster on this board. Heck, chaining Simulacrums and Wishs is also pretty darn good. Doesn't mean I'd want to see it at my table, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist as an exploit either.
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Meta View Post
    Your DM (you?) can do whatever they like, but my plan is entirely feasible RAW to the best of my knowledge. Please link any sources you have that say otherwise. You wrote a dozen paragraphs about supply and demand that aren't rules, just how you handle things. That's great for your table, hope it's fun!
    First of all, supply and demand are essentially fundamental drivers of human behavior. Your table can account for them or not, true, but they are not simply my odd quirk.

    Second, by RAW you can sell a Greater Healing Potion for a percentage of its total value (look at the Selling Magic Items section of the DMG), but you claimed that you'll be able to sell a single potion and completely make back the 2,000 gold you invested in its creation. There's nothing in RAW that says that you can make 2,000 gold selling a potion worth 500. If a DM lets you succeed on a Persuasion check to sell a PoGH for 2,000 gold, that DM is more permissive than Saudi road laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meta View Post
    But it doesn't change the fact that what I wrote is entirely rules legal and would gain you 1000+ GP per month per Simulacrum. I'm happy to show the math and cite the UA.
    Sure. I'd be interested in that, but UA is not RAW.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post

    You start the game with an Herbalism Kit, and you make a Potion of Healing. Most importantly, you ask the DM, "Where does the 50 gold go?" He'll probably tell you that it goes towards getting some herbs, so you say, "What herbs?" At this point, the DM will be a little annoyed and try to avoid the question, but you need to be insistent. Ask again, saying you'd like some names, even if he pulls it out of his butt. Write down the names of every herb involved.
    Not that I support Meta's idea, but any plan who has "annoy your DM until they give you what you want" has a first step is seriously, fundamentally flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    You'll be casting Plant Growth every month or so, and you'll be managing the business, but you'll have freed up a lot of your time.
    I'm pretty sure you could earn more money casting Plant Growth on crops and getting payed for it, though.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Sure. I'd be interested in that, but UA is not RAW.
    No? Well 'Downtime' is in the newest book, let's see if anything in the UA changed when it comes out.

    All my numbers are pulled directly from this link: https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/d...A_Downtime.pdf

    "Brewing Potions of HealingPotions of healing fall into a special category for item crafting, separate from other magic items. A character proficient with the herbalism kit can create them. The time and money needed to create such a potion is summarized on the Potion of Healing Creation table.

    Potion of Healing 1 day 25 gp
    Greater healing 1 workweek 100 gp
    Superior healing 3 workweeks 1,000 gp
    Supreme healing 4 workweeks 10,000 gp"

    I think the assumption that our level 13 spellcaster has acquired an Herbalism kit is a pretty safe one.

    "Selling a magic item is by no means an easy task. Con artists and thieves are always looking out for an easy score, and there’s no guarantee that a character will receive a good offer even if a legitimate buyer is found. Finding a buyer for one of your magic items requires one workweek of work and 100 gp in expenses, spent to spread word of the sale. You must pick one item at a time to sell. A character who wants to sell an item must make a Charisma (Persuasion) check to determine what kind of offer comes in. The character can always opt to not sell, instead wasting the workweek and trying again later. Use the Magic Item Base Prices and Magic Item Offer tables to determine the sale price."

    Let's assume our Wizard has a +1 to Charisma and has proficiency in Persuasion. Nothing too special, a +6 to the roll.

    "Common 50 gp
    Uncommon 200 gp
    Rare 2,000 gp
    Very rare 10,000 gp
    Legendary 25,000 gp

    1–10 50% of base price
    11–20 100% of base price
    21+ 150% of base price"

    The chance for profit comes as you climb in rarities and the cost of selling and the simulacrum become less relevant, but let's go with Superior Healing Potion for now. This is the one I was referring to originally, I thought Greater was the rare one. Too used to lesser > normal > greater.

    So it costs 4 weeks and 1100 GP to make and find a seller.

    15% (rolling a 1,2, or 3) of the time we only sell our potion for 1,000 GP. Womp womp
    55% (rolling a 4-14) of the time we sell our potion for 2,000 GP. Getting somewhere.
    30% (rolling 15-20) of the time we sell our potion for 2,500 GP. Nice

    .15X1000+.55X2000+.30X2500
    150+1100+750= 2000 GP

    That's 900 GP in 4 weeks. Not quite 1000 GP but with a couple more points in CHA it becomes likely. The return is even better on the Supreme!

    The UA also has rules on complications. The default rule is that complications occur 10% of the time, but like most things in 5e is left up to DM. I'll do the best with what were given, which is the 10% guideline.

    The table (right below in the article) has a couple different results of possible complications. I'd say 2-4 of the 8 possible results would stop a sale, but I'll just assume any of them prevent a sale to be safe.

    That ticks our expected profit down 810 GP.

    After 8 weeks, we've paid for the Simulacrum (and the Herbalism kit I suppose) and made a little profit! It's all in the black from here on out.

    There we go, adhering to all of the RAW of the UA.

    I don't think a player should do this, but I also don't exactly see what rule a PC has broken if they attempt to do this. Like anything, your DM gets a say, but we're talking about the rules of gold economy not just house rulings are we not?
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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Not that I support Meta's idea, but any plan who has "annoy your DM until they give you what you want" has a first step is seriously, fundamentally flawed.
    Honestly, as a DM I expect to be pestered a bit for specific information. I understand that some DMs aren't as good at pulling random information out of their butts, but I accept that occasionally player plans will hinge on specifics, so I am willing to play along. There's no reason to be antagonistic towards your DM, but getting the names of each of those herbs is important to keep him from throwing up arbitrary road blocks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I'm pretty sure you could earn more money casting Plant Growth on crops and getting payed for it, though.
    Doubtful. Average upkeep on a farm is about 15 gp per month, with a profit of about 3d8 gp per month, according to the DMG business guidelines (if you'relucky). The sale of a single potion nets you a profit greater than the monthly income of a successful farm. The potion-making is much more profitable than farming, so it would be more profitable than anything the farmers can afford.

    Of course, there's a set price for casting a third-level spell, and most farms couldn't afford it. Potion-making is a much better income source, so long as you vertically integrate.

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    Default Re: Fotget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

    Quote Originally Posted by Meta View Post
    No? Well 'Downtime' is in the newest book, let's see if anything in the UA changed when it comes out.

    SNIP
    The fundamental issue is that there are no RAW rules for crafting magic items. Even the UA (which requires DM buy in) merely contains suggestions for how a DM might decide to allow it.

    I'll spot you the baseline "magic items exist in this campaign" for free, but here are some parts that are explicitly up to the DM by the DMG--

    1) Is crafting magic items by players possible?
    1a) If so, how do they get the formula? Note--the formulas are explicitly one rarity higher than the items, so that's a legendary formula.
    1b) Also, what items are required? The strong advice is to require rare components that require adventure to acquire.

    2) Pricing of magic items?
    2a) the suggestions in the UA are just that, suggestions, not rules.
    2b) How much do you get back on a sale (what percentage of the price)?

    3) Is there even a magic item economy in that setting? By default the answer is no.

    And most importantly:

    4) what the heck is the rest of the party doing while you play shopkeep?
    4a) you don't spend any table time on this. That would imply a steady 900GP return without any intervention. Yeah, that's broken. Veto (as either DM or another player).
    4b) you spend table time on this. Boring for the rest of the party. Veto (as either DM or another player).

    Short answer--the "rules" don't mean anything here. If you try this at my table, my response will be "go ahead and retire the character. He'll have a nice life as a shopkeeper and merchant. But he's not a PC anymore."

    RAW is meaningless. Any attempt to do this requires complete and total buy-in from the DM and from the rest of the group. Anything less is selfishness and bad play.
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