Beast: The Primordial (Good Lord Above, Why?)

[Mikemical]

I'm just gonna link this review and preview of the latest book for New World of Darkness, but be warned, this book is tumblr-tier cringe and self-entitlement.

http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal...he-primordial/

It literally is the "Coldsteel the Hedheheg" of supplements. "Don't kinkshame me: The Game" would be a better, more honest title. They imply beasts are the sole holders of all the truth in the world, that everyone remotely related to the supernatural would be fast friends with them because "we're both totally goffik" and that anyone who would eve question them is a horrible, horrible human being who deserves no pity or any form of empathy and would be better off as Beast Chow.

There is an appeal in playing a monster, the stuff of nightmares, and dealing with adventurers who come looking for your head is a nice change of pace(A reason why Evil Campaigns in D&D remain popular). But whereas some villains have redeeming qualities, or are charismatic individuals you can't help but love to hate, the Beasts are so self-absorbed that they believe they can do no wrong, even when explicitly doing wrong. "Well, now Tyler should know better than to make fun of people who are short." says the Krakenkin after drowning Tyler and causing severe brain damage and leaving him comatose. But it's okay, because Tyler probably learned his lesson about making fun of people's insecurities.

Oh yes, the Beasts refer to themselves as "-insert magical creature here-kin", you read that right.

And the Heroes who hunt the beasts? They're all likened to Gaston, from Beauty and the Beast. They're bullies, they don't understand the Beasts' feelings, and it is why they hunt them down. They have zero redeeming qualities.

Literature idealizes these figures as square-jawed, divinely chosen champions putting themselves between depraved monsters and their innocent victims, but the Children know the truth is more complicated. Once a mythic link takes hold of a person, they are at best a ruthless stalker willing to commit any act in the name of “heroism.” At best, Heroes bear a strong resemblance to the heroes of ancient epics: deeply flawed people doomed to a terrible but glorious fate. At worst, Heroes are gibbering, gore-spattered maniacs whose obsessive quest to destroy the Beast twists their minds and makes them dangerous to everyone around them. ... The dominant narrative may be “Hero arises, kills the monster,” but the Begotten see past that and know that it doesn’t have to be that way. Heroes, on the other hand, never question their own heroism — and that is why Beasts hate them.

Also, Beasts hate Demons. We're never really given any reason why they do, just that they do and that Demons are bad too.

And if you look at the quotes of every other WoD creature, you'll see that at least one in each wants to take them to bed.

[Lord Raziere]

Yup, Beast is a pretty horrible game. I pretty much said that when people were doing the whole open beta pdf thing. its like one of the WoD games I don't regret passing on. like if I want to play a good monster, a horror game THIS game is the exact wrong thing to do it with. and villainous parasitic monsters were already done better with Vampire so......yeah, it does everything wrong. like normally I'd love play something like a medusa or a dragon, but nope, this game just screws up so royally that its like, ugh, why did you even write this?

[Rater202]

Let's see, during the Open Beta the Devs responded to complaints about Beasts and Heroes being seen as glorifying abuse(made by made by people who misunderstood the heroes, no less), whith nothing explicit in the text implying, by giving the beasts an explicit cultural impetus to be abusive asshats instead of finding ways to feed safely(which had been encouraged in the original draft.)

They also took it from "you were always a monster soul in a human body" to "another beast ate your soul and a monster soul climbed in, witch your permision or not" which turned Beast from "All Monsters are family, you're from one of the Oldests Branches, go find your family" to "You joined or were forced into a club of asshats."

Taking heroes from "anybody with the integrity of a serial killer who just happened to have a bad dream" to "specific individuals who are also the same" worked, but it was adressing a problem that didn't need to be fixed

We were promised a game where you were a monster but that didn't make you a bad person, where the main goal was learning about the World you were Born into and your new, massive, extended family.

The worst part is that the first draft was closest and the game devs changed it to something else because a loud minority bitched. And none of the people who complained about abuse in the first draft complained about it from the second draft onward, which I honestly don't get.

(Though, the reason Beasts don't like demons is becuase Demons are of the God-Machine, and none of the other splats are. It look like family but it's not family is that was supposed to be the thing, but since Beasts are no longer a family...)

[Trampaige]

I have the collector's edition literally collecting dust on my dresser. I wish that I had unbacked the kickstarter after they re-did the entire game during the beta. The original draft was so much better, though I think I lost it when I formatted my laptop. The way they changed Souls and Homecoming is just absolutely awful. Instead of being a mythical beast of legend, who was born that way and grappling with the reality of what you are, some jerk eats your soul and now it's your job to teach people fear to protect them. Utter garbage.

Also, did they ever send out the kickstarter reward pdfs? I'm still waiting for my copy of Demon.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I thought it was commonly understood at this point that Beast is a bad game.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Yeah, I'm glad I waited to back, because I was able to see their revisions and give that a hard no. I was really excited about the first draft. Do you guys know if they updated the same google doc the original draft was on? I think I still have access somewhere...

[Tinkerer]

Haha, sounds like Wraeththu. Anyone think it might be worth an ironic look?

[Anonymouswizard]

Yes, the first draft was amazing, it was full of flavour.

Then people said two things. 'You're glorifying abuse' and 'there's nothing to do'.

Now a big part of the first draft was finding a way to minimise the abuse you inflict, with the ideal level being 'none'. Partially because Abuse Creates Heroes, and Heroes Hunt Beasts (although I think they moved away from 'all heroes are Gaston' and are offering examples of more heroic heroes).

So they changed it to diet vampires. I already have a game about vampires, I paid £30 for it (and about that much for the other game about vampires). But apparently a game about family and finding that family gives you nothing to do and so is boring, and so we need vampires without the blood and a theme that was done better by a Covenant in Requiem. Gah, I mean there's some nWoD games where I think the execution fails, but Beast is the first time I've seen a setting go from okay to rubbish in a single redraft.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Why did they end up changing the Homecoming again? I loved the idea of "the moment you realize why you always felt different", it's such a great story-telling moment, a really important defining moment for a character. Now that's just... gone.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think the problem with Beast is that they tried to tackle some very specific social issues that were and still are on the bleeding edge of internet consciousness - body dysmorphia, persecution, bullying and counterbullying taken to fatal extremes - and put all those hot button issues at thr forefront without much thematic substance holding them together. THEN when they inevitably got negative feedback on these issues they reversed course and jumbled stuff up in utterly nonsensical ways and just left a mess. A mess whose major themes have already been done better in Vampire, Werewolf, and Changeling: the Lost, for that matter. It's not just confused trash, it's confused trash that doesn't really need to exist.

Still better than Vampire 5e though.

[Rater202]

For those interested, the original free preview draft is still available

I'm not gonna say that it's perfect, but it's better than the finished product and I still honestly can't figure out where the complainers were coming from... Or why the people complaining about "glorifying abuse" didn't keep complaining when beasts gained an inpetus to harm people "for their own good."

Beast was meant as the "Crossover" Splat. That's what you did with it, and "ancient monster with ties to most other splats reincarnated in a human body" was perfect for that.

And then they went and mucked it up.

[Lord Raziere]

*shakes head*

I wouldn't really call the first version "better" its just a different flavor of bad. Like, the first version was bad, the second version was just like "you expect me to think this somehow fixed the problem? nope, not bothering with this anymore." the complaint I had at the time WAS that it was already bargain-bin Vampire, that was never changed. even before the second draft, what was your thing as a beast? you went around and made people suffer to feed yourself, except your not an awesome monster from myth, your just a human who thinks he has a beastly thing in his head and maybe some magical thingies that appear sometimes, so really your just this pathetic bully going around making people fear you for the sake of some identity you have and thats not ok.

Like I remember at the time,I think the complaint was, that it wasn't anything you'd actually want to play, because yes you can go around searching for your family and find a vampire or a changeling......and then what? its like ok, you found them. whatever. sure you can go around feeding yourself.....but there was nothing bigger really, because there is no bigger monster society, so the argument was, it was just a game centering around the most uncomfortable part of vampire except in instead of blood it was intentional suffering, like a vampire could theoretically take blood from willing people and such, but a Beast HAD to be a jerk, and the Heroes, they weren't much better, and I don't remember what the difference between Heroes then and now, they are just boring and stupid in general no matter which one because they are just forgettable in general.

I dunno, it was some time ago for me, I know I was one of the people arguing against the first draft, but I only kind of vaguely remember the arguments why, I just know that there is no meaningful difference between the two versions that really changes the problems with it. I think people just gave up trying to fix it when they saw the direction White Wolf went in response.

[comicshorse]

I wasn't previously aware of Beast but I've been toying with the idea of a running a game based on Matt Wagner's 'Mage' comics. From the look of it the 'Heroes' of Beast would match the Avatars of 'Mage' ( the comic) and Beasts themselves would fit as the enemies. This looks worth a read for some ideas

[Honest Tiefling]

Now a big part of the first draft was finding a way to minimise the abuse you inflict, with the ideal level being 'none'. Partially because Abuse Creates Heroes, and Heroes Hunt Beasts (although I think they moved away from 'all heroes are Gaston' and are offering examples of more heroic heroes).

I see nothing wrong with this.

Through...If these people are beasts, wouldn't that make them as dumb as a beast? Sharks aren't known for their intelligence, as they'll accidentally eat each other in a feeding frenzy. And what happens if you bop her on the nose?

[Rater202]

I see nothing wrong with this.

Through...If these people are beasts, wouldn't that make them as dumb as a beast? Sharks aren't known for their intelligence, as they'll accidentally eat each other in a feeding frenzy. And what happens if you bop her on the nose?

No. they're the Primordial Beasts of Myth and Legend--The gorgons, dragons, Giants, tempters, tricksters, not base animals.

They're supposed to be said beings, embodiments of fear, reincarnated... but after the revisions, they're more body-jackers.

[Honest Tiefling]

No. they're the Primordial Beasts of Myth and Legend--The gorgons, dragons, Giants, tempters, tricksters, not base animals.

That does make more sense. I read the excerpt (the first quote), and thought it was supposed to be shark. What is she supposed to be?

[Anonymouswizard]

No. they're the Primordial Beasts of Myth and Legend--The gorgons, dragons, Giants, tempters, tricksters, not base animals.

They're supposed to be said beings, embodiments of fear, reincarnated... but after the revisions, they're more body-jackers.

Yeah, they could have made all the changes they did and kept the Homecoming (probably the best bit of the original draft), but they didn't.

They could have spun 'Beasts exist to teach people through fear' as a justification Beasts give themselves to feel better, and shown other factions of Beast society (I like the idea of formalising 'I feed on those who hurt the people under my care' as a Beast faction). But they didn't.

They could have kept Beasts as is, and given the book a negative view of them (maybe written by one of these noncrazy heroes), but they didn't.

It's like they decided to go more normal for a nWoD game instead of less, they could have rocked the boat and made something different. A society based around the question where do we come from and investigating that (without finding answers).

Plus my phone insists Beasts are Breasts apparently.

[Rater202]

That does make more sense. I read the excerpt (the first quote), and thought it was supposed to be shark. What is she supposed to be?

I think a Kraken.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

For all the criticism, there must be SOMETHING to it; on the Onyx Path forum it is 7/10 in terms of number of topics and 5/10 in terms of number of posts. It has more posts than Mummy, Geist, and Promethean combined, so clearly something in it works that captures people's interests.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm not gonna say that it's perfect, but it's better than the finished product and I still honestly can't figure out where the complainers were coming from... Or why the people complaining about "glorifying abuse" didn't keep complaining when beasts gained an inpetus to harm people "for their own good."

We live in an age where anyone, anywhere, who so much as comments obliquely on a social issue in a public forum is instantly mobbed by angry, angry people for either 1) not being senstive about it, 2) being too sensitive about it or 3) bringing it up in the first place you triggered virtue-signalling concern troll snowflake. This is absolutely ubiquitous in internet social media that doesn't have a blanket ban on social commentary like this forum does. If I had a twitter (and people had a reason to read it), I could tweet "I like puppies" and get thousands of angry replies and DMs shaming me for not liking kittens, for oversharing my personal preferences, and for admitting to bestiality, from thousands of people I've never met.

Naturally, the Beast pre-release got this from all three sides. There are many ways for creators to respond to incendiary reactions like this and Onyx Path chose to panic, throwing all their design docs in a shredder, letting their cats play around in the resulting ribbons for a while, then taped the results together into something that was technically a series of sentences in English, then published that.

And it still made everyone even angrier. Go figure.

[golentan]

I was excited about Beast, then disappointed about beast. Which pretty much sums up my response to WoD in general except for the splats which just looked bad from the get go. Except more so.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think a Kraken.

...Kraken aren't intelligent. That's a bit of a bum deal. Through that reminds me of a comic...

Spoiler: Kraken Motivations

Show

[Morty]

I've never known what to think about Beast. But when I think about it, that's just the thing. It's a game that doesn't know what it wants to be. So everything I hear about it seems to be this weird jumble of ideas.

[Nerd-o-rama]

...Kraken aren't intelligent. That's a bit of a bum deal. Through that reminds me of a comic...

Spoiler: Kraken Motivations

Show

Let's be honest. The people who wrote this probably a) didn't care or b) confused the authentic kraken myth with Clash of the Titans, wherein it's still a pretty basic sea monster but is at least implied to have some sapience by getting lumped in with the reality-creating demiurges more properly called Titans.

[Rater202]

The idea is that a Beast is a Human whose Soul(Not Horror, screw that that's stupid) is Primordial Embodiment of some kind of fear in the form of a monster.

So The girl isn't a literal monstrous giant squid, she's a human whose soul is that of a Kraken, or rather her soul is made of the kind of fear that a Kraken represents, and she can use this to evoke abillities like that of a kraken.

Beast was pitched as the "be whatever monster you want" splat and the "built in for crossovers" splat.

What we got was a disappointment, but it makes sense for you to be a Kraken if that's what you want.

[lightningcat]

I did not back the kickstarter for Beast, but did get the book from DriveThruRPG.com. After reading through it all I could say was that it was perfect for making opponents, but I would never run or play a game based on it. And the thought of letting someone play one in mixed or another type of game is asking for trouble.
I could at least think about running or playing a game of Prometheus, although I cannot see it working for a group very well. I think Promethetheus could be an interesting 1 on 1 game.

EDIT: clarified that.

[Mikemical]

I think it would be a interesting 1 on 1 game.

That depends how far you are willing to thread into someone's magical realm.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

That depends how far you are willing to thread into someone's magical realm.

That bit was referring to Prometheus, I think.

I have similar reservations with Changeling, tbh. I do respect and love Rose Bailey's work, but David Hill had a very good direction that I was very attached to for his new edition on changeling, and there are hints so far that Rose might go in a different direction in some very important ways. It might again be a case of draft 1 being better than draft 2, though in this case I suspect more a case of difference in personal taste than anythign else.

[Cluedrew]

You know threads of like this always make me wonder: Why is World of Darkness popular? I mean I can see some good stuff in it, but less than a lot of less popular RPGs. Was the old stuff better? Did it appeal more in the dark and antsy days of old?

Maybe this should be a separate thread, but it seems pretty relevant considering some of the "dashed hopes" I'm seeing here.

[Lord Raziere]

You know threads of like this always make me wonder: Why is World of Darkness popular? I mean I can see some good stuff in it, but less than a lot of less popular RPGs. Was the old stuff better? Did it appeal more in the dark and antsy days of old?

Maybe this should be a separate thread, but it seems pretty relevant considering some of the "dashed hopes" I'm seeing here.

well, WoD is popular because White Wolf instead of doing the usual thing of just making a world to have fun in and not care how much the PCs wreck it all.....they instead make the most beautiful setting you've ever seen and doing their darndest to make PC characters apart of that world so that anything they do is an intended story of that world, and how they fit into the settings themes and overall mood and structure. its a very different game than just rolling up a few characters for DnD, which is what some people want- roleplaying in a different way that can't be taken non-seriously. I don't see the appeal myself, but thats what some people want.

this is both WoD's greatest strength and weakness. on one hand they get to have a certain artistic integrity for staying true to the artistic/thematic point they want to make when your playing the game and providing a different experience than just being able to solve everything with violence or sill shenanigans. which is a good thing, since not everything can or should be DnD. at the same time, thats all it really does, and has no flexibility for providing anything else, so if you want play a game much like it but with some modifications its harder to get working.

and some WoD books like this, are just plain misses entirely. White Wolf writers considers themselves artists first, and art sometimes takes risks to make a point, and sometimes that doesn't work out so well, and this isn't a recent thing, there have been books that are misses in White Wolf's older days as well, White Wolf has always been a company of "great highs, great lows" they'll either produce something utterly amazing or they will screw up and it will be complete garbage, what you will never get is something boring. like in comparison, Demon: the Descent is frigging awesome.

its just the same company that produces thoughtful metaphors of horror on the nature of this and that are also the company that sometimes accidentally screws up and makes something completely mechanically unworkable or produces utterly offensive and toxic fluff that that no one wants to be canon, when the company actually cares about talking about Important Issues and such and so on.

basically? White Wolf and by extension WoD is Daring Avant-Garde Artist: The RPG Company, and that whether this is a really good thing or really bad thing depends on how the coin flip lands every time a book is released.