New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 2 of 19 FirstFirst 123456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 548
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    That's very close to how I'd describe it... and I'd include a tie-in to verisimilitude. That is, player agency is both in part and part of the "fictional reality" (the settings, the NPCs, etc) reacting to the PCs' actions as if it and they were real.


    And more controversially, my personal definition goes on to assert that the PC is the player's "interface point" with the fictional reality, the one part of that fictional reality that the player controls. This makes the player the "soul" of the player character, and it makes the PC's inner feelings, desires, thoughts, and choices sacrosanct and inviolate, with other players (GM or otherwise) only able to intrude with the individual player's explicit permission to do so. Don't mind control or mechanically social control or otherwise hijack the PC of a player who does not enjoy that aspect of the gaming endeavor.

    .
    My outlook is in-line with your interface-point idea. Just about any information that a player should know should be accessible through their character sheet in some way. This extends beyond mechanics and to the world itself - character backgrounds, goals, alignment, etc. is all an attempt to help bring the player into line with the world around it.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    I hold that "Quantum Ogre" is a misnomer and the form that peeves people ought to be called "the Inevitable Ogre", because that captures the crux of the problem much better than the extended quantum mechanics metaphor.

    ---

    So back to "how do you measure agency? How do you test it?"

    As mentioned, you measure agency in number of possible actions, or game moves. There are a couple of problems in counting these, however. First is that RPGs are typically games of incomplete information. While playing the game, you do not usually know how many valid game moves you have before trying. This is different from, say, Chess, where after the basic rules have been explained, you always know how many valid moves you have at each turn.

    Second, a typical RPG adventure is only played once. So there's no cross-comparison between playthroughs which would allow for objective measuring of impact of player actions. This is different from, say, a typical video game, where a save game function or multiple playthroughs allow a player to gauge impact of different actions.

    Third, there is an alluring bad faith trap that must be dodged. That is, due to the above two things, whenever a living person runs the game and claims you have a choice, you can always accuse them of lying or setting you up. To get around this, you must start with assumption that choices presented are honest and only withdraw this assumption in face of actual proof. (How to prove another person is lying is, of course, a problem of its own.)

    Given these, how can you test for agency? Well, during the game, you can gauge it based on causality of game events. If X leads to Y, and Y is important, and it's not plausible for the GM to have invented either X or Y beforehand, that's evidence of agency. Example: your character is a local duke's prisoner and the GM asks you, "why are you imprisoned?" If your answer is "because I'm the duke's no-good alcoholic father" and this later leads to the duke chewing your character out for being a poor dad, it's pretty evident that you both had a choice and that your choice had an impact. The opposite hypothesis, that you had no agency regarding this, would've required the GM to know beforehand what you were going to do, and is implausible.

    Outside the game, you can of course try to get hands on the GM's notes and try to analyze structure of the game scenario. For example, if your character gets arrested and put into jail because of a criminal thing you chose to do, but you can find no mention of player characters needing to be jailed from the game notes, the most plausible explanation is that it was the GM's spontaneous reaction to your action. Again, evidence that you had agency, this time you just used it to screw yourself over. (Of course, here it would be most tempting to pull out the bad faith accusation and claim that the GM really always wanted your character jailed and just didn't write it down to maintain plausible deniability.)

    Finally, there is metagame consistency. If you play multiple adventures and multiple different characters under the same GM, or observe others do this, you can compare how the GM reacts to different player decisions from similar initial positions. The most revealing case would be watching how a GM runs the same adventure to different players, or how the GM runs the same adventure to the same players with different characters.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Aotrs Commander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Derby, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    I am a preparation-heavy DM, who typically runs a hybrid 3.x and a hybrid Rolemaster. As such, I am always running adventue paths or modules (be they actual or just essentially modules). So, in order for the game to exist, to me, player agency in my games is more about the fine details than the broad strokes. (As a rule, my players are well-used and good at meeting me halfway to th point eh one and only time i experimented with something vaguely freeform the total lack of input meant it was pointless). Thus, the PCs will be set up (for example), for example, to inflitrate a convoy, investigate a mystery, explore a location etc. The how they do that is up to them. Now, I can and have improvised a bit if the players go WAY off-base (which only happened seriously once in... twenty-eight years last Tuesday 1), but basically just to get them back on track.

    at the end of the day, there comes a point when you have to decide between living with some reduced agency (i.e. not being to be able to go off and do anything as mood strikes you) and having no game at all. Since, at least for me, in the case the players basically say "we don't want to do this adventure, we want to do something else" I would have to go "whelp, that's the end of the campaign/session then chaps." Which benefits no-one.

    (In such a hypothetical situation, it is also quite possible that such an occurance would reseult from a player-DM disconnect, in which the adventure the players want to play is not one the DM wants to run.)

    (Qualifier: I have never had such an occurance - even the failed free-from was more just abandoned when I ran out of the little material I prepared.)

    So, I think illusionism as a tool to be used as necessary - WHEN necessary - to ensure the game flows. (Though sometimes, yes, you just have to mark something up as a loss.) And if you do your craft right, the players will eithe never know and better, not care, because they are enjoying themselves too much.



    Edit: On the other side of the screen, I probably should add, I am generally quite happy to go along with whatever the DM is running (even if I joke otherwise2) and generally try and show the same curtosy to my DM as I expect from my own players. (Heck, at one point, in a more free-form (evil) campaign run by a DM, I went out and swapped out my CE character for a LE anti-paladin for the explicit purpose of trying to keep the group more together and on task, something the Black Dagger was the antithesis of. (His crowning achievement was entirely unsupported idea was, in the given the arctic environments of the campaign world, to change the economy to be based on snow, so he would be rich.) I was having a little bit too much fun with him, and after an (in-character) confrontation with one of the other players (who was a bit touchy, but in my defence, was playing a succubus (in a level 6 party, the DM not really getting the whole LA thing), subtly mind-controlling everyone and just got rid of his favorutie magical doofer) led to said player storming out (the one and only time that has ever happened), I decided that he was not helping the game. (So I talked to the DM and swapped him out. the DM, who liked the character quite a lot, was a bit put out, I think, but agreed.)

    (I smoother things over with the player, by-the-by who was feeling a bit guilty she'd overreacted, by the by; while I don't like to have to exercise it for choice, I actually am pretty good at the communications thing...)



    1Since my roleplaying career started when I got HeroQuest for my 10th birthday.

    2There was a campiagn one of our group ran that he'd gotten from the web, set of Faerun, whereby the partyt were cursed with some sort of doofer than pulled us along in a particular direction. So we made a running gag about wanting to go off to the Bay of Dancing Dolphins (we have NO idea what is actually there, is just sounded jolly), but at no point did we ever do more than cheerfully grumble at what amounts to probably most people, fairly unsubtle railroading on the camapign's part.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2017-10-26 at 12:20 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    Like anything, this is the point where the idea of agency jumps the shark and goes screaming off in to the woods with its underpants on its head.
    Hyperbole; unhelpful mockery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    Agency is a tool, not a goal.

    The goal is to give the players a fun, exciting, and engaging game. No other goal matters. The role of "Agency" is to facilitate that, because players tend to have more fun, and be more engaged when their actions and ideas matter (and I say tend, because that is not an absolute rule, some players just want to watch a story unfold).
    Accurate in parts, but with some very misleading text in the middle.

    The goal is not to give the players a good game. The goal is to enjoy a good game with the players.

    The DM is not selling a book, the DM is not selling a video-game, the DM is not selling an interactive dining experience. The DM is playing the game with the PCs.

    That said, it's accurate that agency is one tool with which a DM can improve a game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    Setting "Agency" as the goal is putting the cart before the horse - providing agency at all cost serves no benefit if the players are not having fun, and aren't engaged.
    The thread is about one aspect of fun.

    If you fail at this aspect, there will be less fun.

    Improving the Agency aspect of a game is not somehow in competition with improving the fun. It's one part of how to improve the fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    I am not interested in the opinions of third party campaign-monitors who are going to go through my DM notes and mark me out of 10 on "Agency" or any other false goal. The only people that matter to me are the people around the table. If they are happy, I have succeeded at what I aimed to do. If they have not, I have failed.
    When you fail, would you prefer to be able to improve your game?

    Or would you prefer to have no options for improvement?

    It sounds like you're saying: "I don't need that tool right now, therefore there's no point in anybody ever using that tool."

    Gotta say, that's about the least-constructive attitude I've seen here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    For that reason, I strongly dispute the collective sniffing being done at illusionary agency. It is just as an acceptable tool as real agency if it achieves the goal of helping the players enjoy the session. And the fact is, illusionary agency has its place.
    "Because illusionism sometimes works, therefore real agency is not important."

    You're saying something very strange here.


    Overall, it seems like you have one specific truth which is accurate ("Agency is a tool") but you don't understand the value nor the limitations of that truth.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In my library

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Speak for yourself.

    I want my choices as a player to actually matter, not just appear to matter, even if the outcome is less "fun".

    And if nothing my character does can avoid that pre-planned encounter with that ogre, then the game isn't fun anyway.
    What if I admit I'm quantum ogreing? I have previously called a ten minute break to rework my plot because I've for nothing else prepared (before that I used to use plot armour, now I just give important NPCs backups and successors). I might not run the exact same encounter, but I need a reason for you to run across the scenario start (I'm a believer in providing PCs with a plot hook then giving no guidance).

    I also run quantum settings. Generally there is a city (or potentially an interstellar federation/commonwealth/empire), some NPCs, and a whole lot of uncollapsed waveform. Is there a wizard's guild? If it improves the plot. Do orcs exist? Does the king have a son? This are all up in the air until a player asks or answers the question. Sometimes this is worked out in session zero, sometimes a question isn't asked until the penultimate session.
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Speak for yourself.

    I want my choices as a player to actually matter, not just appear to matter, even if the outcome is less "fun".

    And if nothing my character does can avoid that pre-planned encounter with that ogre, then the game isn't fun anyway.
    How can you say this for sure? In theory, couldn't the DM do it in such a way that you do not know that the ogre battle would have occurred no matter your decisions?

    I also like my choices to actually matter when I'm playing a character, because that's what I find to be fun. But if the game was fun and I didn't realize I was following the DM's pre-planned path... eh? I guess I couldn't really complain, not if I'm having a good time

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    What if I admit I'm quantum ogreing? I have previously called a ten minute break to rework my plot because I've for nothing else prepared (before that I used to use plot armour, now I just give important NPCs backups and successors). I might not run the exact same encounter, but I need a reason for you to run across the scenario start (I'm a believer in providing PCs with a plot hook then giving no guidance).

    I also run quantum settings. Generally there is a city (or potentially an interstellar federation/commonwealth/empire), some NPCs, and a whole lot of uncollapsed waveform. Is there a wizard's guild? If it improves the plot. Do orcs exist? Does the king have a son? This are all up in the air until a player asks or answers the question. Sometimes this is worked out in session zero, sometimes a question isn't asked until the penultimate session.
    I do quite a bit of the quantum setting--I'll only build things at a high level until the players approach the area, then dig deeper on things they are likely to encounter.

    For example, one city had the following entry in my notes (before the players went there):

    + Ruins of old Iron Dominions capital. Underground tunnels with dwarves and gnome survivors. Isolated. Magitech.

    Once the players said they were going there (at the end of a session), I expanded it based on a session's worth of things around the possible entry points. I knew they would be using the (already established) portal network to get there, and that a city that size would have had several portal entries. From there, based on their choices I built the rest of the city, leaving things vague where they didn't interact. And their interaction shaped how the city was built (within reason). They didn't demand things--but if they naturally assumed something was there, then it makes sense that it was (unless there was a reason for it not to be there). Everything grew from there--I'd ask myself: "I know (fact X). Why would it be like that?" Once I had an answer for that, the question became "so what other things are a consequence of that?" but only as far as they were going to get in a session or so. My initial idea of what was there changed pretty drastically by the time they were done with that area.

    Now if they go back to that city, the basic facts on the ground are set and won't change. The politics will (they took a wrecking ball to the status quo, after all), but the locations of the portal entries and the districts around them won't have significantly altered unless the NPCs did so.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    I think that choice being real is important for games. Players can be convinced to buy-in to the idea that a particular DM prepares a lot, if they enjoy the benefits of such, like interesting characters, good description, and challenging encounters. Players might try to adjust their behavior as needed if there is plenty of communication regarding the needs of the game. But I doubt any player would willingly join a game where there is NO choice.

    Players can probably figure out if a DM is yanking their chain a lot. Players aren't stupid, and even newbies are crafty little things. I greatly suspect that if a player feels like there's no real agency, no risk, no tension...Their immersion is ruined, the plot is meaningless, and they start making fun for themselves in different ways. Usually very violent and burning ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Aotrs Commander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Derby, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    I think that choice being real is important for games. Players can be convinced to buy-in to the idea that a particular DM prepares a lot, if they enjoy the benefits of such, like interesting characters, good description, and challenging encounters. Players might try to adjust their behavior as needed if there is plenty of communication regarding the needs of the game. But I doubt any player would willingly join a game where there is NO choice.

    Players can probably figure out if a DM is yanking their chain a lot. Players aren't stupid, and even newbies are crafty little things. I greatly suspect that if a player feels like there's no real agency, no risk, no tension...Their immersion is ruined, the plot is meaningless, and they start making fun for themselves in different ways. Usually very violent and burning ways.
    You have to ask, though, how much agency is it reasonable to expect in a given campaign? If the DM is running a free-form campaign is basically expecting you to pretty much make all the decisions about the direction and have a very character-driven game, that's one thing, since a lot of player agency will be REQUIRED for the game to function (as I found the one time I tried and failed!); but if the DM says "I'm going to run Rise of the Runelords," I think it is reasonable to say that you probably shouldn't expect to be able to naff off to Nex or Arcadia or Osirion or something (at least not without the campaign abruptly ending).

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    There is no way I'm going to be able to keep up with this thread! But I'm loving it so far. A few things I saw while skimming the responses:

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatKaiserNui View Post
    I can't wait for Darth Ultron to crash his way into this thread like Kool-aid man and then ramble his way through a subject he has no comprehension of.

    /S
    Well, I created this thread largely for him. I mean... Hmmm... Actually, I'm quite interested in whether we, the playground, are able to explore an idea without DU's help. The best experiment, IMO, would be for him not to jump in until the thread dies down, and then we see how much more we uncover after his involvement.

    Ok, Playground, you've been challenged: can you discuss and dissect ideas without DU, at the same level that you do when you are explaining things to him?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    + Knowledge: You must be able to (at least with some level of surety) be able to predict the possible consequences of actions. If every action involves a roll on a d1000 table ranging from success to "and the world explodes," there's no real agency.
    I missed this in my own personal definition of Player Agency. As an extremist of anti-railroading & pro-agency, it's not surprising that I care extremely much about knowledge (Quertus, my signature charter for whom this account is named, had invented more custom intimation-gathering spells than there are published spells in core, for example), yet I still hadn't realized how integral to agency Knowledge is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    Like anything, this is the point where the idea of agency jumps the shark and goes screaming off in to the woods with its underpants on its head.

    Agency is a tool, not a goal.

    The goal is to give the players a fun, exciting, and engaging game. No other goal matters. The role of "Agency" is to facilitate that, because players tend to have more fun, and be more engaged when their actions and ideas matter (and I say tend, because that is not an absolute rule, some players just want to watch a story unfold). Setting "Agency" as the goal is putting the cart before the horse - providing agency at all cost serves no benefit if the players are not having fun, and aren't engaged.



    I am not interested in the opinions of third party campaign-monitors who are going to go through my DM notes and mark me out of 10 on "Agency" or any other false goal. The only people that matter to me are the people around the table. If they are happy, I have succeeded at what I aimed to do. If they have not, I have failed. If they leave the table beaming and chatting excitedly I do not care how much or how little agency I provided, because that is not the purpose of us sitting down together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    That said, it's accurate that agency is one tool with which a DM can improve a game.

    The thread is about one aspect of fun.

    If you fail at this aspect, there will be less fun.

    Improving the Agency aspect of a game is not somehow in competition with improving the fun. It's one part of how to improve the fun.

    When you fail, would you prefer to be able to improve your game?

    Or would you prefer to have no options for improvement?
    As stated above, I am am extremist, being very anti-railroading and very pro-agency. But opinions on how good or bad railroading or agency are should be irrelevant to this thread. We're not here to discuss whether Blue is a pretty color, were here to discuss how to define - and, if possible, measure -blue.

    Now, yes, if your game didn't rate at least a 9.5 for Agency, we're gonna have some issues, and if it isn't at least an 8.7, I'm not playing at all.

    So, if it is possible to measure such things, it could be handy for making sure you have matching expectations. Evaluating what Player Agency even means is the purpose of this thread. Uses of this knowledge to improve your game, or match games and players, while a logical application of such knowledge, are technically beyond the scope of this thread.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2017-10-26 at 12:38 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    You have to ask, though, how much agency is it reasonable to expect in a given campaign? If the DM is running a free-form campaign is basically expecting you to pretty much make all the decisions about the direction and have a very character-driven game, that's one thing, since a lot of player agency will be REQUIRED for the game to function (as I found the one time I tried and failed!); but if the DM says "I'm going to run Rise of the Runelords," I think it is reasonable to say that you probably shouldn't expect to be able to naff off to Nex or Arcadia or Osirion or something (at least not without the campaign abruptly ending).
    I can't answer that, because that's like asking how much combat is needed for a RPG game. It's just going to vary wildly between players. Some really like empire building and want to forge their own path to greatness. Others want a good, strong plot with interesting allies and foes.

    I think the DM's own preferences matter as well. One should expect a DM to run a game according to their own strengths...So it's like asking your friend who is a massive fan of barbequing meat to make you a garden burger. You're probably not going to get the best results.

    Before you get the wrong idea, I don't think your approach is wrong, just wrong for some people. And I assume that given your emphasis on preparation, you have some interesting encounters planned for the players that I feel are the strength of a much more directed game.

    I would just consider informing the players ahead of time you are doing an adventure path, and if they are new, informing them that you need them to stick to it. Players can usually adjust their character's actions when needed. While herding them so they don't realize anything is going on is quite a feat, there shouldn't be any reason to nudge them out of character to stick to something you can actually DM!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    You have to ask, though, how much agency is it reasonable to expect in a given campaign? If the DM is running a free-form campaign is basically expecting you to pretty much make all the decisions about the direction and have a very character-driven game, that's one thing, since a lot of player agency will be REQUIRED for the game to function (as I found the one time I tried and failed!); but if the DM says "I'm going to run Rise of the Runelords," I think it is reasonable to say that you probably shouldn't expect to be able to naff off to Nex or Arcadia or Osirion or something (at least not without the campaign abruptly ending).
    That's the sort of discussion that has to be had before even Session Zero. The players exercise their agency in this case before the campaign even starts, by deciding whether they want to take part in that sort of campaign. Those who sit down at the table to play have agreed shape/restrict their characters' decisions such that they do not "naff off", to play characters who won't "naff off", etc.

    Even within that stricture, however, there may be a tremendous amount of room for choice, and a functional cause-effect cycle. I'm not that familiar with Rise of the Runelords. Are the PCs able to affect the course of events through their (in-setting-functional) actions? Can they prevent or ensure the rise of said runelords? Can they shape the effects of the rise or the runelords in some way? Can they benefit from the situation? If they have people or places they care about, can they protect them from what's going on?
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    That's the sort of discussion that has to be had before even Session Zero. The players exercise their agency in this case before the campaign even starts, by deciding whether they want to take part in that sort of campaign. Those who sit down at the table to play have agreed shape/restrict their characters' decisions such that they do not "naff off", to play characters who won't "naff off", etc.
    Exactly.

    I'm a high-agency kinda dude. And nothing will piss me off more than telling me there's actually agency and then leading me down a linear game. Nothing. If you want to play a linear game? Great! Go for it! But be honest about it and give me the choice of joining or not. I may decide to anyway.

    The fact that agency isn't important to you, or to some players, does not mean that it is irrelevant or not important to other players.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Even within that stricture, however, there may be a tremendous amount of room for choice, and a functional cause-effect cycle. I'm not that familiar with Rise of the Runelords. Are the PCs able to affect the course of events through their (in-setting-functional) actions? Can they prevent or ensure the rise of said runelords? Can they shape the effects of the rise or the runelords in some way? Can they benefit from the situation? If they have people or places they care about, can they protect them from what's going on?
    Even events on a smaller scale can be entertaining for those who don't need as much of a free-form game. Can they become heroes to a small town? Can they save certain NPCs? Can they convert NPCs?

    I think there needs to be a distinction between a free-form game and a game with no agency. In a free-form game, the structure, the plot and the encounters are far more up to the player. But while the agency of a more directed game might be smaller events and less about the nature of the game, it's still there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    On Paper
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Player Agency exists on three levels.

    The first level is about as "Objective" as this sort of thing can get, which is to say, it's not objective at all, but there is theoretically a universally applied standard that can be used.

    The central conceit of most RPGs is that the players control their characters within the world. The most basic level of player agency is: Do the Players have the same ability to influence events that their characters would reasonably have.

    It's not really Objective, because different people will have different ideas about what "Reasonable" means, and sometimes game mechanics get in the way of what is or is not a "reasonable" action (For example, D&D doesn't model "Slit their throat while they sleep" particularly well against high-level characters. Meanwhile, anybody with access to a knife and a sleeping human should "Reasonably" be able to kill them, no matter how many dragons they've slain in the past). But, if a Character could do something, and the Player Cannot Make That Thing Happen, then this test has been failed.

    This is easy with simple, physical actions, but it can get fuzzier with stuff like "I've got a Noble background, I should be able to get an Audience with the King".

    The Second Level is about how much ability the characters, and therefore the players, have to influence the story.

    I could run a campaign where all the PC's are locked in an inescapable prison cell for the entire campaign, and easily pass Test 1, but I can't think of anybody who would enjoy that.
    Different players have different ideas about how much they want their characters to be making decisions that guide the story, but generally speaking most players want to feel that their characters are the central cast of the Epic.

    This is what Railroading comes down to. You can respect all the first level of player agency, and still deny the players the ability to feel like they're influencing the story being told, simply by keeping the PCs removed from the critical events.


    The third, and final level, is about the role the Players are playing beyond simply controlling their character. Once again, different people have different ideas about how much "Agency" is allowed at this level. Stuff like how much the Players can help shape the world of the game or the style of game being played. Stuff like a player inventing an evil Duke (with, presumably, a corresponding Duchy) in their Backstory, or asking to play some courtly intrigue rather than a Dungeon Crawl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Player agency is a scale of the players' actions impact on the game. With no agency, their success or failure is irrelevant. The game will continue until it reaches its conclusion and the players are little more than spectators. They might get to decide which orc to hit or which door to go through, but in the end, it's all going in the same direction. At the opposite end of the spectrum, their choices can add aspects to the game or even the current adventure; players might describe what it is they are searching for and even some of its weaknesses.

    I think an important aspect of player agency is for the players to be able to fail without it ending the game. In most games, a character or two can die, but what happens when the party fails as a whole? Is retreat an option? What happens when the players choose poorly or execute poorly? Does the game just end? Does the situation continue evolving? What happens to the characters?

    This is related to the larger aspect of the players' choices mattering. Their success should mean that the central problem is handled or is handled more easily. Let's say that there's a scenario where orcs have infiltrated the government of Rohalla under a powerful disguise spell. They might be able to uncover their identities through a long series of investigations, but there's also a powerful sword in the king's vault that can pierce the spell. The characters can take any number of actions to try to get to the sword - beg the king for it, try to buy it from the king, steal it, try to get its maker to forge another one, and plenty more. The players choose to try to steal the sword after begging didn't work. The ramifications of their choice must be dealt with. On a success (meaning everything went perfectly), the sword is stolen and no one has noticed it has gone missing. The players are free to use it on the government officials (though, getting to them to use the sword might be difficult in itself). On the other hand, a failure (meaning everything went terribly) might mean that the party is now fleeing the kingdom and the matter of the orc infiltration is seemingly a minor footnote to what the characters are involved in.

    This means that to enable player agency, the GM must ensure that there are multiple viable solutions to the overarching problem and those other solutions must be apparent to the players along with possible outcomes. My example looked at events that could affect an entire campaign, but the same principle applies even in a smaller scale - there are three exits from the dungeon room and growls can be heard coming from one of them.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Aotrs Commander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Derby, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Before you get the wrong idea, I don't think your approach is wrong, just wrong for some people. And I assume that given your emphasis on preparation, you have some interesting encounters planned for the players that I feel are the strength of a much more directed game.
    Well, let's put it this way... The person most familiar with the mechanics of the game is me, and I like to (within a mid-high level of reasonableness) optimise and I believe combined arms, so yeah... (Not-Atypical boss encounter As Done By Bleakbane: BBEG, BBEG's arcane caster support, BBEG's divine caster support, BBEG's melee screen, BBEG's ranged troops, BBEG's skirmishers... (etc!))


    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling
    I would just consider informing the players ahead of time you are doing an adventure path, and if they are new, informing them that you need them to stick to it. Players can usually adjust their character's actions when needed. While herding them so they don't realize anything is going on is quite a feat, there shouldn't be any reason to nudge them out of character to stick to something you can actually DM!
    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    That's the sort of discussion that has to be had before even Session Zero. The players exercise their agency in this case before the campaign even starts, by deciding whether they want to take part in that sort of campaign. Those who sit down at the table to play have agreed shape/restrict their characters' decisions such that they do not "naff off", to play characters who won't "naff off", etc.
    Oh, being a prep-heavy DM, my players know well in advance what's going to be run next! (Years, sometimes, given the length of an AP verses the time it takes to play one; I mentioned RotRL specifically, since it's the first one we played - we're doing the first bit of Shackled City before we do the latter half1... And, for various reasons, it took us four years to even get started on it (by the time we'd started the anniversay edtion had come out...)) So there is virtually no chance unless you;re new of turning up at one of my games without a good idea of what's coming.

    Occasionally, one or two players will not be bothered about playing something I'm going to run, but as those sort of more atypical things tend to be more annual day-quests than weekly ones (where I have Even More players who might come), that's not an issue. (One player does not like Undead, so passed on playing the Aotrs- party conistsing of Liches

    (Granted, "session zero" tends to be less of a discussion, in our group, and more of me going "right, I'm going to do this next, unless anyone else wants to do something? No? Okay, then?1" But the principal is the same.)

    I keep my players updated on stuff from The Plan (i.e. what we're going to be doing next - or rather, what I plan to do next, discounting when/if anyone else wants to run something between) and mechanics tweaks (most of which is treated with more of a "nod and smile" fashion by the players most of the time...! Woe betide the poor unfortunate that does daft things like ask for all the hybrid rules. for they shall be supplied in all their extensive hybrid-aring glory and all the lists and lists of spells and feats for Stuff What Is In Use3 and such...!)



    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy
    Even within that stricture, however, there may be a tremendous amount of room for choice, and a functional cause-effect cycle. I'm not that familiar with Rise of the Runelords. Are the PCs able to affect the course of events through their (in-setting-functional) actions? Can they prevent or ensure the rise of said runelords? Can they shape the effects of the rise or the runelords in some way? Can they benefit from the situation? If they have people or places they care about, can they protect them from what's going on?
    Without spoilers, it's more of a save-the-things (town/country/world/civilisation as we know it) sort of campaign, so respectively: qualified yes where milage varies (i.e. whether you would think that completing AP goals of "Saving the Things" constitutes agency or not, since while the PCs could fail, its sort of assumed that the PCs will be intended to succeed and that's where the focus of the stuff provided lies), ditto, not really, yes and yes. (At least as I am run it; as always, variance depends on how much work the DM is prepared (or has the time/energy) to put in to expand/modify etc and so on, where any or all of the above could be changed to "yes" (or "no...!"))



    1Given the levels involved, the hybrid system and mid-high optimisation levels and larger-than-typical party size (about seven characters), is wasn't practical to prepare to run a whole AP in one go, so my plan is to be preparing and running APs in alternating chunks. (Told you it was "years!")

    2I'm being slightly hyperbolic here. One other chap sometimes runs 4E (from modules) - usually between me running for a break - and one other chap ran a wild west game for a few weeks, and I can usually cadge someone to run one or two of our four annual day-quest sessions (as opposed to the weekly games).

    3There is not frequently a question of what is allowed and what isn't in my games, since for most things, There Is A List. (Okay, PrCs I deal with on an indivdiual basis, but most other stuff, any question is largely pre-answered.)

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Well, I created this thread largely for him. I mean... Hmmm... Actually, I'm quite interested in whether we, the playground, are able to explore an idea without DU's help. The best experiment, IMO, would be for him not to jump in until the thread dies down, and then we see how much more we uncover after his involvement.

    Ok, Playground, you've been challenged: can you discuss and dissect ideas without DU, at the same level that you do when you are explaining things to him?
    Challenge accepted. There are many nuances that we cannot really touch upon with Darth Ultron but can with each other. Let's be comprehensive in our definition here.

    First: I think we all agree that a necessary condition for a person to be a player in a game is for them to be capable of interaction with the game. If nothing the person does has any impact at all, then we should consider the person and "game" in question as independent and unrelated. I, a person, can be described as playing a game of chess with a normal board and pieces. I cannot be described as playing a game of chess if the pieces are all glued in place (no interaction possible --> no playing possible).

    Second: Even in games with only 1 kind of interaction (cite one-button games here), the player is faced with choices of which of their interactions to use or to abstain from interacting at that time.

    Third: Now that we have the background covered. It is time to discuss Meaningful Choices. I will note that the meaning of Meaningful can be subjective, especially as it applies to a specific case. So this is a good place for us to dissect further (both in the minimum case and in the ideal case).

    To my understanding a choice needs the following characteristics for it to qualify as a Meaningful Choice in the context of enabling the possibility of Player Agency:
    A: The Players need to be aware of the choice they face and be sufficiently informed about the choice. This does not require they know everything or even understand a majority of the situation. Sufficiently informed is defined by the following criteria.
    B: The choice needs to have multiple outcomes and those outcomes need to be the result of differences between the options. To be sufficiently informed, the players need to know enough of those relevant differences that their limited information could be used to map the differences between the options to the difference outcomes.*

    *Obviously there can be relevant differences that the players are not exposed to and those differences will also impact the outcome. However that is merely reminding us that many meaningful choices are contained within the context of a larger choice (the knowable and unknowable details of the choice).

    Fourth. Now we have the concept of meaningful choices. In practice, meaningful choices are how a player is able to intentionally impact the shape of the game. This can range from really small scale (choosing to save person A vs person B) to large scale (reshaping the socio-economic structure of the material plane through a long chain of actions and interactions). It can range from infrequent to frequent. This is Player Agency.

    Different campaigns will choose different shapes and sizes of Player Agency. It makes little sense to allow plane warping player agency in a campaign with the lovecraftian horror motif of insignificant & depowered. But such a game would still have Player Agency in the shape of the investigations made and the attempted plans to survive/stay sane.

    This is also why it is so important to include player agency in a RPG. Without player agency, the people are not actually interacting with the game.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Player Agency exists on three levels.
    This is a very good framework. Most of the issue is really about allowing/preventing agency on the 2nd level, while the 3rd is then tossed about as a strawman.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    What if I admit I'm quantum ogreing? I have previously called a ten minute break to rework my plot because I've for nothing else prepared (before that I used to use plot armour, now I just give important NPCs backups and successors). I might not run the exact same encounter, but I need a reason for you to run across the scenario start (I'm a believer in providing PCs with a plot hook then giving no guidance).

    I also run quantum settings. Generally there is a city (or potentially an interstellar federation/commonwealth/empire), some NPCs, and a whole lot of uncollapsed waveform. Is there a wizard's guild? If it improves the plot. Do orcs exist? Does the king have a son? This are all up in the air until a player asks or answers the question. Sometimes this is worked out in session zero, sometimes a question isn't asked until the penultimate session.
    Your latter paragraph is pretty far removed from what the usual complaint about "Quantum Ogres" is about. Again, if you ask me, a better name would be "Inevitable Ogre", as the key issue is that there will be an ogre no matter what.

    By contrast, your "quantum setting" talks about details which haven't even been decided yet, so can't be inevitable. Your examples are closer to randomly generating the setting, than the Inevitable Ogre.

    You can do random and improvized setting building in ways that reduces or removes player agency, but in other respects it's pretty much on the opposite end of the spectrum from the Inevitable Ogre.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Your latter paragraph is pretty far removed from what the usual complaint about "Quantum Ogres" is about. Again, if you ask me, a better name would be "Inevitable Ogre", as the key issue is that there will be an ogre no matter what.

    By contrast, your "quantum setting" talks about details which haven't even been decided yet, so can't be inevitable. Your examples are closer to randomly generating the setting, than the Inevitable Ogre.

    You can do random and improvized setting building in ways that reduces or removes player agency, but in other respects it's pretty much on the opposite end of the spectrum from the Inevitable Ogre.
    "Inevitable Ogre" is a probably better term, both because it's more accurate to the situation, and because "quantum ogre" pulls in a lot of pop-science ideas about "uncertainty" and "observer" and such into the conversation unnecessarily.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    I still like "quantum ogre" as it's a more fun term, and I think "inevitable ogre" is a little ... no, I take that back. In every case quantum ogre comes up, the inevitability is present.

    So "inevitable ogre" works.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    "Inevitable Ogre" is a probably better term, both because it's more accurate to the situation, and because "quantum ogre" pulls in a lot of pop-science ideas about "uncertainty" and "observer" and such into the conversation unnecessarily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I still like "quantum ogre" as it's a more fun term, and I think "inevitable ogre" is a little ... no, I take that back. In every case quantum ogre comes up, the inevitability is present.

    So "inevitable ogre" works.
    I agree. I have a knee-jerk reaction to anyone using "quantum" in any non-sub-atomic physics context. But that's a personal problem. Inevitable ogre works better for me as well.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Actual events.

    It should be possible for a disinterested 3rd party to read through a game later and determine the degree of player agency.

    That's just illusionism.

    It's why multiple-choice questions are lower-agency indicators than free-form or open questions.
    The real question here is if this 3rd party needs to see the DM's notes or not to determine player agency.

    Note that "free form" and "open question" depend a lot from the player. If a DM gives them the choice between "city A" and "city B", it isn't clear if the DM should reward a player for metagaming the source of the names with a slightly better city. It should be clear that if they are looking for a specific thing and did some sort of research (divination, bardic lore, gather information, hire a sage) to determine the better city they should wind up in the "better city" (assuming they got a good roll on the information source).

    Should a DM have an answer to all possible outcomes? Should a metagaming player be rewarded for guessing many of those outcomes? And how much should a DM railroad to avoid forcing the players to make choices without information (that would still require them to have "agency").

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by wumpus View Post
    1) Should a DM have an answer to all possible outcomes? 2) Should a metagaming player be rewarded for guessing many of those outcomes? 3) And how much should a DM railroad to avoid forcing the players to make choices without information (that would still require them to have "agency")?
    In order:

    1) No because it's too much of work. The whole point of using a living human as a GM is that no-one needs to think of all possible answers beforehand.

    2) You're essentially asking "should a player be rewarded for guessing their GM's thoughts?" The answer is "no, because a player who can do that will already do better in the game".

    3) I don't understand the question. Please replace "railroad" with a functional verb.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by wumpus View Post
    The real question here is if this 3rd party needs to see the DM's notes or not to determine player agency.
    The Agents of the Agency Agency are bound by law and duty to evaluate the notes of every DM, which is why I for one support our new ubiquitous corporate surveillance state.

    But seriously: No.

    IMHO you should be able to read a thread of a PbP, or sit in on a couple of game sessions, and you'd probably have enough data to determine the objective status of Player Agency in that game. You'd be able to point to the sorts of decisions which players are making and characterize the decisions, and the results.


    Quote Originally Posted by wumpus View Post
    Note that "free form" and "open question" depend a lot from the player. If a DM gives them the choice between "city A" and "city B", it isn't clear if the DM should reward a player for metagaming the source of the names with a slightly better city. It should be clear that if they are looking for a specific thing and did some sort of research (divination, bardic lore, gather information, hire a sage) to determine the better city they should wind up in the "better city" (assuming they got a good roll on the information source).

    Should a DM have an answer to all possible outcomes? Should a metagaming player be rewarded for guessing many of those outcomes? And how much should a DM railroad to avoid forcing the players to make choices without information (that would still require them to have "agency").
    Giving players too little info can be a type of illusionist railroading.

    IMHO it's very much preferable to tell the players enough about the setting that they can make at least a partially informed decisions about City A vs. City B, and not rely on metagaming.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by wumpus View Post

    Should a DM have an answer to all possible outcomes? Should a metagaming player be rewarded for guessing many of those outcomes? And how much should a DM railroad to avoid forcing the players to make choices without information (that would still require them to have "agency").
    if the DM has an explicit prepared answer to all possible actions, that's a worrying sign. It's not a game with only a few good options like chess or draughts, if you've enumerated them all in detail to a depth of five choices then you've probably got most of them as reducing to trivial outcomes.
    If you have an explicit prepared answer to only one of the possible actions that's also a worry.

    On the whole, to stick with the chess metaphor. You know the immediate situation, and can quickly work out the general shape of (most) of the immediate possible options. You can probably guess a few lines of least resistance, and put more effort there (if they deviate to a slower path, then by definition their giving you time to sort things out, if the path they choose is sufficiently similar to one you've considered you can use some of that working, it's only if they find a short cut you're in trouble).
    You can have some general principles that makes sensible answers to a lot of the questions a bit simpler, in the big city, big city stuff can be expected (can I find a tesco, probably, can I find a tractor, maybe not). Some elements may be mostly independent.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Mid-Rohan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Possibly rephrase this as "nothing is fixed until the information comes out in play?"

    I tend to know that (say) there are ogres and dragons out there. I then reveal (if the players ask about local threats) that fact. When they take steps to avoid one of the two (and thereby accept the other), then the waveform collapses. I may not have fixed which one was north and which one was south, but once they decide "we're going south to avoid the ogres which we believe (based on information gathered) are to the north," then putting the ogres to the south would be a breach of agency in the absence of external forces such as a) a lying informant, b) ogres that are hunting the party explicitly and know of their movements, or something else like that. And any such thing would have had to have been telegraphed way in advance and very clearly.
    I believe this last part to be critical.

    Player Agency really functions as a form of currency. By choosing to take action, you forsake alternatives. You make an investment by sacrificing resources strategically seeking the greatest reward for acceptable risk.

    When in live play session, a DM is like a banker in monopoly. The have their own set of agency currency, but they also manage the total available pool of resources ("the bank").

    The DM is in a precarious position not to conflate the game resource bank with their own moderator pool of resources. It devalues the spending power of the players for the DM to unfairly subsidize their own agency.

    It is completely fair, however, for a DM to expend their own resources otherwise. Going back to your examples, in A) the lying informant, the informant has essentially been exhausted for this purpose. They are at best no longer reliable and at worst have just made some very dangerous enemies. Odds are good that this informant will receive uppance for this betrayal, thus they will not be a resource available to the DM anymore. Even if the character survives, they will no longer be trusted as a quest giver. If the DM decides to rez the slain informant, they are dumping game resources into a sink. This becomes an illusion breaking problem if the DM gets over focused on maintaining their lost investment and tries to fill the hole from the community resources, they can make the players feel that their limited resources can't compete with the whole bank.

    In scenario B) the hunting Ogres, it also expends resources, because now the DM has cut off all Quantum Ogre waveforms that don't include the hunting ogres. They can't be ahead of the heroes, waiting to ambush them, unless they have an overland advantage (like geographical shortcuts, mounts, or teleportation). Even if the DM does this, it's fine if they use their own personal limits. If the DM keeps dumping these agency expenditures directly out of the bank, never taking into account that they themselves as a player aren't justified to treat the bank as their own bank account, this means the DM is putting all their chips in on one bet. If the players call the bet and come out with the better hand, it should not be easy for the DM's investments to recover. The players won a battle of escalation with luck and keen tactical investments of action.

    TL;DR: any NPCs/monsters the DM plays as need to be adequately limited by their agency, just as the players are. Even "environmental hazards" such as "rocks fall" should not be considered a threat possessing omnipotent agency. Every actor in the game must be restricted to a finite amount of agency.

    Coming at it from the other end, a scene in which the actors have zero agency is a "cutscene" and it isn't a game, just a prop to set up a game.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Some play RPG's like chess, some like charades.

    Everyone has their own jam.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post

    Agency is a tool, not a goal.

    The goal is to give the players a fun, exciting, and engaging game. No other goal matters. The role of "Agency" is to facilitate that, because players tend to have more fun, and be more engaged when their actions and ideas matter (and I say tend, because that is not an absolute rule, some players just want to watch a story unfold). Setting "Agency" as the goal is putting the cart before the horse - providing agency at all cost serves no benefit if the players are not having fun, and aren't engaged.

    For that reason, I strongly dispute the collective sniffing being done at illusionary agency. It is just as an acceptable tool as real agency if it achieves the goal of helping the players enjoy the session. And the fact is, illusionary agency has its place. Barring the mythical "perfect DM" who can create intriguing fun plots and events on the fly (and they do exist, but expecting every DM to be that is setting yourself up for disappointment), a DM has a finite amount of time to create material for his session. I have no issue with invoking the quantum ogre if the parties decisions cause them to sidestep a fun, involved encounter that I know they would enjoy. Especially if they will never realise that their decision should have caused them to miss the encounter. To me giving the players that enjoyment is more important that slavishly adhering to the god of agency. Claiming it is "a violation of trust" is outlandishly hyperbolic - the players "trust" you to give them a fun gaming session, not to adhere to some carved-in-stone code of DM behavoir that places agency up on a pedestal above all other things. Yes, agency often does contribute to giving them that fun session, but there are times when it can form a straight-jacket that hinders giving them the very best session they could experience, and then, it should be sacrificed without hesitation.
    100% agree.

    And once you introduce a few random tables etc, it can be said that even the GM didnt know what was going to unfold originally anyway. So you end up with a kind of half baked quantum ogre.
    Low Fantasy Gaming RPG - Free PDF at the link: https://lowfantasygaming.com/
    $1 Adventure Frameworks - RPG Mini Adventures: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=645444
    Midlands Low Magic Sandbox Setting - https://lowfantasygaming.com/2017/12...x-setting-pdf/
    GM Toolkits - Traps, Hirelings, Blackpowder, Mass Battle, 5e Hardmode, Olde World Loot http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/p...Fantasy-Gaming

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: What is Player Agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    What if I admit I'm quantum ogreing? I have previously called a ten minute break to rework my plot because I've for nothing else prepared (before that I used to use plot armour, now I just give important NPCs backups and successors). I might not run the exact same encounter, but I need a reason for you to run across the scenario start (I'm a believer in providing PCs with a plot hook then giving no guidance).

    I also run quantum settings. Generally there is a city (or potentially an interstellar federation/commonwealth/empire), some NPCs, and a whole lot of uncollapsed waveform. Is there a wizard's guild? If it improves the plot. Do orcs exist? Does the king have a son? This are all up in the air until a player asks or answers the question. Sometimes this is worked out in session zero, sometimes a question isn't asked until the penultimate session.
    I'm totally on board with this and imagine this is how most GMs run their games.

    Indeed, I am a big fan of getting players to detail parts of the world too - esp parts arising from their PC history. So you say your character was a slave in a mountain fortress. Who lived there, how did he escape, are there secret ways into the mountain your PC has heard about - happy for the player to make all this up on the spot mid session, and help build up the world with the GM/other players.
    Low Fantasy Gaming RPG - Free PDF at the link: https://lowfantasygaming.com/
    $1 Adventure Frameworks - RPG Mini Adventures: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=645444
    Midlands Low Magic Sandbox Setting - https://lowfantasygaming.com/2017/12...x-setting-pdf/
    GM Toolkits - Traps, Hirelings, Blackpowder, Mass Battle, 5e Hardmode, Olde World Loot http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/p...Fantasy-Gaming

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •