Pantheon (of Gods not the League Character)

[Duke_Daisuke]

So I'm trying to build a pantheon for my world. So far I'm thinking of Six Dragon Gods. Each one embodies a different element (Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Light, Dark). I don't want any of them to be evil I just want them to be flawed (i.e. greek but less jerk). My problem is I'm not sure if I need some sort of opposition force for the Gods or should I focus more on conflicts between kingdoms and races.

[jqavins]

Opposition between gods - the presence of at least one evil god, a rival race of gods or equivalent, or what have you - is dreadfully cliché, in my humble opinion. Good on you for not going there.

This doesn't mean that all the gods have to be bestest buddies. They can have competing interests, disagreements over policy, interpersonal issues, etc. If all are of good alignments, and being gods are virtuous exemplars of the good alignments, then one can expect that they won't come to blows, even if they don't all get along.

The gods-in-opposition trope is handy for plot hooks. You'll be taking away a simple source of conflict in the mortal realm if the rich and powerful can't get the populace, including adventurers, to fight each other in the names of gods. But there are plenty of other plot hooks.

So go for it!

And now: the other side of the coin.

There's precedent for the gods of one nation, continent, or world not being all the gods there are. You could have the six dragon gods all be good, whether besties or not, and have another group of gods or god-like beings oppose them. They could come from another part of the world or from another world altogether. Or be the fiends of the evil outer planes.

That certainly has its advantages, most notably ready made plots, as the good gods are fighting the other gods/fiends/beings and the fight spills over into the mortal realm. A bit cliché, but that's not always such a bad thing.

And now: the bottom line. Either way is good. I like a pantheon that's all good, both because you're avoiding the cliché and because it gives you a chance to explore the other, lesser conflicts between them. And, if you want to use the outside gods thing, it'll have more dramatic effect if you introduce it later, after the players are used to not having god fights.

[Honest Tiefling]

I suggest making the gods embody both traditionally good and evil aspects. For instance, that god of fire might be the god of the forge, but also of wild fires that devastate regions. Their domains are a balance of the concepts, both helpful and harmful.

I also suggest making the gods a little distant, since it might be hard for such a god to explain why little Timmy had to die in that wildfire. The greek gods were very active (some more than others...) in the mortal world, so it's not the best comparison. Oddly, I think the Jotun might be a better comparison: Chaos and nature are uncontrollable and wild. They will kill you. But without fertility, without the creative spark, there wouldn't be a world.

As for the actual question...Having a foe to the gods would mean that the gods aren't omnipotent, which means you have to judge if this is suitable for your cosmology. It also leads to very epic plots to beat the forces of a very powerful force. This will lead into the question of if your setting and system can support such high-powered heroes.

Also, what is the intended tone of the game? Having more mundane threats leads to intrigue, urban adventures and power struggles. A high powered foe means demon slaying. Which of the two do you want to run?

If you want to split the difference, make a Dragon of Void. They're not evil, they just wish for the return of everything to nothingness, which most people object to. This dragon was sealed, but bits of their power seep out causing unpredictable effects on the mortal world. It could be as subtle as tearing apart a noble family, leading to the death of thousands and the fall of their culture. Or, someone might try to let the poor guy out...

[Duke_Daisuke]

I'm planning on running some newer players so I was anticipating more of a smaller scale campaign. I was hoping to see how I could have the Gods interact with everyday life (even in mundane ways) I worry that with the Jotun I wouldn't get that. (What with them being unknowable and murdery) but I definitely like the dichotomy idea. I could shoot for a balance theme with each of them
.

[the_david]

Your gods have a rather interesting portfolio, I'm not sure it works yet.
Usually you'd have some things like agriculture for farmers and the ocean/storms for fishermen and sailors. This is because people would pray for their needs. A sailor wouldn't ask the god of agriculture for a save return, would he. (It's a chicken or the egg thing, kinda.)
Ofcourse you can build of these elements. The sailors would pray to the air and the water dragon, while farmers would pray to the earth and the light dragon.

Final nitpick: Light and dark aren't elements. The four elements are the four states of matter. Earth is solid, water is liquid, air is gas and fire is energy. Light should be energy so it's part of fire. Darkness is the absense of light, but you could replace this with void as the absense of all elements.

[jqavins]

Final nitpick: Light and dark aren't elements. The four elements are the four states of matter. Earth is solid, water is liquid, air is gas and fire is energy. Light should be energy so it's part of fire. Darkness is the absense of light, but you could replace this with void as the absense of all elements.

Who says? EAFW are the classical Greek elements (except Aristotle added Æther) and retained in most western cultures. In Japanese tradition, the elements are Earth, Wind (close enough to air) Fire, Water and Void. In Chinese tradition there are Earth, Water, Fire, Metal, and Wood. And there are other variants in other cultures.

In modern terms, even leaving aside the chemical elements, we understand earth, air, water, metal, wood, and so on as all containing some amount of heat energy as well as (most of them) bound up chemical energy and often other kinds; fire is simply gas with a lot of heat, generated by releasing the chemical energy of other things.

So who says light and dark can't be thought of as elements in a made up culture? When you're making up a magical world, with a magical view of physics, cosmology, etc., then the people in can call anything "elements" that you want them to (and you even get to decide whether they are right or merely ignorant of "real" chemistry and physics.)

[Duke_Daisuke]

So bit of a spark of inspiration. The Dragons are Paragons of their element and rulers of spirits of their elements. For example the Fire Dragon kind of does it's own thing but things like fire spirits and salamanders interact with people, live in forges and stoves. My idea is that while the dragons are largely benevolent and rarely seen by individuals the spirits are interacted with every day and are more fickle then their Rulers. When they created the world the six elements didn't initially mix and each ruled over their own domain. But Because the elements were adjacent new spirits were born into the world that were not under the domain of any one Dragon. Instead of warring over these new spirits the Dragons caused a great upheaval mixing their territory and power together Causing the world to be born as we know it. I'm thinking after this they create the mortal races to help tame these new spirits.

[jqavins]

I like it, and there is one fixable issue. Spirits under even moderate control by their respective dragons shouldn't, it seems to me, be terribly fickle. A bit less consistently benevolent, sure, but I don't see their dragons letting them be outright nasty, destructive, or utterly capricious.

But that doesn't apply to the new spirits. A new spirit of wind-and-fire, but mostly fire, is responsible for the destructive forest fire that killed little Jimmy, while it may be a mixed air-water spirit in a good mood that made the rain which helped stop the fire, or it may have bee a pure water spirit.