OOTS #1103 - The Discussion Thread

[ti'esar]

Oh man, for some reason I absolutely lost it at the final panel.

[Gwynfrid]

Mr Scruffy has his eyes open, but Blackwing closed his. I had to zoom to make sure... Vampire's Domination is based on Dominate Person and so only affects humanoids, in principle. One can never be too cautious with those rules...

Now, an interesting little detail is that V's eyes are closed. But she cast Mind Blank, so she doesn't need that. That can't be a mistake. It means she doesn't want to reveal the existence of that protection to the vampires. We'll see if this has an impact or not.

[Keltest]

You mean as a Vampire right ? Or can you make someone into a devil ?

Theoretically, lawful evil souls go to a lawful evil afterlife and have a chance of becoming a devil. The process however takes so long as to not be worth counting on. Like, tens of thousands of years just to get off the ground.

[LasVegasLawyer]

Well, well. Durkula has identified V as the most dangerous enemy. Which, by OotS logic, means that V will not be the most dangerous enemy.

It is time for Elan to rise.

Also, brother Sandstone is a nasty piece of work now that he's a vampire.

Fangs for the praise for Elan's skills. Here's hoping the Order doesn't have to stake everything on Elan.

[drazen]

What if V cast Resilient Sphere on self first and then dismissed the cage? Would that keep the vamps off long enough?

[Noodz]

As always great Giant And as i always enjoy doing, i will get into the Order's shoes as a player and try to think of the best way out of this situation. Since i know Rich hates to have a surprise spoiled, i will place my battle speculation in spoilers.

Spoiler

Show

The best way is having Haley reveal one of her wands as having Dimension Door, as that spell specifically bypasses Forcecage. Even better, a basic D door wand (7th caster level) would allow her to take up to 2 other willing persons. Sure, D door wand charges cost a pretty penny, and Haley of all people will be loath to use them, but this is the kind of situation where burning a charge is justified.

The best course is to take V and Roy. By being teleported out of the forcecage instead of dismissing it, V could ready a spell to be cast as soon as he is out, while Roy protects V and Haley from any vampire trying to melee them. As for V's spell, a very nasty one against a bunch of vampires standing around is a wall of fire, ring of fire version, 20 feet radius centered on the cage, with the damaging side in (of course).

I specifically mention wall of fire because it deals DOUBLE DAMAGE TO UNDEAD with no save. Vampires trapped between the forcecage and the ring of fire can stand around taking 2d4x2 damage per round, or cross it for absolutely brutal (2d6+16)x2 fire damage. Given the typical vampire spawn has 29 hp, trying to cross the ring of fire would insta-kill all but the luckiest spawn and singe even high level vampires, making them easy pickings for Roy.

Meanwhile, Belkar, Elan and Minrah can sit safely in the cage, as it blocks spells, and thus should block wall of fire's heat wave damage. Haley can provide some support by using fire arrows (if any remain), but in her case it might be better to keep her eyes closed lest she gets dominated into sneak attacking V. As for V, the wall of fire alone will be enough to win the battle, but i would cast the remaining mind blank on Roy (unless that spell got drained). Despite Roy's good track on will saves, this is the kind of scenario where Roy might need to roll 15+ will saves per round,
and simple statistics dictate he will eventually roll a 1.

If a D door wand is not a thing... well, i actually don't have much of a plan in that case. If V dismisses the cage, the order might prevail by the simple fact that Roy can deal ~30 damage per swing to undead (assuming he OHKO a spawn in #1102). The problem is all the negative levels the order will take on such a messy melee would cripple them against he pivotal fight against Durkula

[JumboWheat01]

Quick, Elan, speak some puns, maybe you can still do some Psychic damage to them.

[JBiddles]

If V has a Wall of Fire, which she really should, is there any reason she can't just cast it around the vampires, damaging side in, and then just sit inside the Forcecage until they all roast to death? I'm not sure how the rules apply here - do you need an unobstructed line of effect for WoF?

Assuming it works, they're undead, so they're going to be soaking up 4d4 damage per round. They could try to run out through it, but 4d6 + 34 should fry the mooks and seriously singe Sandstone.

[Eragon123]

If V has a Wall of Fire, which she really should, is there any reason she can't just cast it around the vampires, damaging side in, and then just sit inside the Forcecage until they all roast to death? I'm not sure how the rules apply here - do you need an unobstructed line of effect for WoF?

Assuming it works, they're undead, so they're going to be soaking up 4d4 damage per round. They could try to run out through it, but 4d6 + 34 should fry the mooks and seriously singe Sandstone.

I think so but that’s another high level slot and they need to face count durkula at the end of this.

[elros]

Thoughts about this comic:
1) "everyone close your eyes" is the type of suggestion I expect from Elan, not from Roy. I knew Elan was having an influence on Roy, and Roy's facial expression in the last panel suggests that he knows it, too!
2) Impressed with Durkon's plan for the vampires to "lay still" and them "come for [the elf]" first. Vampire Durkon is a much better strategist than alive Durkon!
3) Also impressed with Brother Sandstone's restraint, and his choice to influence Minrah by appealing to her desire to kill demons.

Not sure how the order is going to handle this.

[factotum]

If V has a Wall of Fire, which she really should, is there any reason she can't just cast it around the vampires, damaging side in, and then just sit inside the Forcecage until they all roast to death?

If V was able to cast spells out through the cage, then those outside would also be able to cast spells in, making it rather less than useful.

[schmunzel]

As always great Giant And as i always enjoy doing, i will get into the Order's shoes as a player and try to think of the best way out of this situation. Since i know Rich hates to have a surprise spoiled, i will place my battle speculation in spoilers.

Spoiler

Show

<snip> but i would cast the remaining mind blank on Roy (unless that spell got drained). Despite Roy's good track on will saves, this is the kind of scenario where Roy might need to roll 15+ will saves per round,
and simple statistics dictate he will eventually roll a 1.

<snip>

Im rather confident that spell will serve another purpose

sch

[Sebastian]

Of course. Vamps are glorified bats. And bats are winged rats. And he's a CAT.

"Vampires have risen from the dead, the grave and the crypt, but have never managed it from the cat."sir T. Pratchett, witches abroad

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Honestly, if the world weren't at stake, now would be a good time for the Order to just take a nap.

Or, for someone to say, "later that day".

[Chei]

2) Impressed with Durkon's plan for the vampires to "lay still" and them "come for [the elf]" first. Vampire Durkon is a much better strategist than alive Durkon!
3) Also impressed with Brother Sandstone's restraint, and his choice to influence Minrah by appealing to her desire to kill demons.

Durkon* probably should tell his minions not to spill the tactics that fast, though. Now the Order knows V is the priority target. As thralls to Durkon or one of the other vampires, these new guys may not have the flexibility to change tactics.

In fact, knowing that V is now the vampires' target is probably crucial to however the Order overcomes this fight.

[Tiltowait]

Soooo.
Let's see, most of Elan's songs are mind-affecting and therefore useless against vampires, but Song of Freedom and Countersong would still work. Doesn't seem very helpful unless the Order has time for 10 rounds of country music.
Did Vaarsuvius ever learn the Shout spell? That might work through a forcecage seeing as we just saw that sound passes through it...

[Doug Lampert]

Why would it have to be V? Haley could easily have a wand that can dispel the Baleful Polymorph, and it's not completely impossible that even Minrah could cast Dispel Magic successfully. Sure, it would be very unlikely, but like you say, this is a webcomic.

It's a caster level check. Miron is a minimum of level 15 (to cast horrid wilting), which gives a DC of 26, a 20 does not auto-succeed and wands are usually at the lowest available caster level.

V has a caster level of 17, with a dispel magic V needs to roll a 16 or more (because dispel magic has a maximum of +10), with a greater dispel magic V needs to roll a 9 or more, and is blowing a level 6 spell.

A minimum level wand of dispel magic auto-fails, a maximum (effective) level wand of dispel magic costs twice as much and needs to roll a 16, but if it's a wand you can just keep trying till it works. A cast spell needs to be from a level 6 caster to succeed even on a 20 which may leave Minrah out, even if she prepared dispel magic.

"Realistically", it has to be V.

Edited to add:

Soooo.
Let's see, most of Elan's songs are mind-affecting and therefore useless against vampires, but Song of Freedom and Countersong would still work. Doesn't seem very helpful unless the Order has time for 10 rounds of country music.
Did Vaarsuvius ever learn the Shout spell? That might work through a forcecage seeing as we just saw that sound passes through it...

Song of Freedom is a good suggestion. With the forcecage up they have time, and it costs only a bardic music check to try. Sure, have Elan try to Song of Freedom Bloodfeast. That couldn't go wrong...

I like it, but I'm not sure how it works for non-D&D's, does using Song of Freedom to break a transformation seem intuitive?

[fan4battle]

Their situation is so worrying!

Art bit: Her hammer is gone after Roy pulled her?

[Peelee]

Their situation is so worrying!

Art bit: Her hammer is gone after Roy pulled her?

You can see her drop the hammer when Roy pulls her.

[Green Bugbear]

Does Mass Cure Light Wounds work through the force cage?

[Fyraltari]

Theoretically, lawful evil souls go to a lawful evil afterlife and have a chance of becoming a devil. The process however takes so long as to not be worth counting on. Like, tens of thousands of years just to get off the ground.

Oh. That sounds like it kinda defeat the purpose of being in Hel in the first place. Or maybe not. Is it the same way for other afterlives (like the Greenhilt family could eventually turn into devas) ?

2) Impressed with Durkon's plan for the vampires to "lay still" and them "come for [the elf]" first. Vampire Durkon is a much better strategist than alive Durkon!

I think that Durkon is as clever as Nokrud but due to his problem of (non)-assertiveness never really treid to come up with tactics opting to let Roy do that. Remember how he elected to do nothing during the Split Party arc ?

Durkon* probably should tell his minions not to spill the tactics that fast, though. Now the Order knows V is the priority target. As thralls to Durkon or one of the other vampires, these new guys may not have the flexibility to change tactics.

In fact, knowing that V is now the vampires' target is probably crucial to however the Order overcomes this fight.

True that timing was less than perfect. Between Hel herself and those various vampires that looks like a systemic problem for that team.

[Dr.Zero]

Mr Scruffy has his eyes open, but Blackwing closed his. I had to zoom to make sure... Vampire's Domination is based on Dominate Person and so only affects humanoids, in principle. One can never be too cautious with those rules...

Now, an interesting little detail is that V's eyes are closed. But she cast Mind Blank, so she doesn't need that. That can't be a mistake. It means she doesn't want to reveal the existence of that protection to the vampires. We'll see if this has an impact or not.

Damn, after the second page of comments, I was hoping to have been the first one to notice that detail and to come to the conclusion V is ready for some big bluff.

Oh, well, next time, maybe...

[Trillium]

The spell that would really work here is...

Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (Empowered, of course)
They seem to
1) last more that one round, so V can fire it off, and then dispel the cage
2) be directed by V, so won't attack allies
3) there are at the very least 3, probably many more tentacles spawned. Empowering would increase number of tentacles by 50%, which would probably be enough to keep vampires at bay.

With V's considerable level they might deal sufficient damage to off low-level vampires, or at least keep them suitably shocked.
Protection From Fire is first thing for vampire clerics to cast on themselves when expecting an Evocation wizard, so some physical or force damage would be a natural choice for V.

The only problem is, that with the ethical and upstanding direction the comic has taken since those early days there can't be any actual intrusion jokes, because that is ultimate evil even when used on undead abominations that try to bring about the end of the world, but simply omitting the uncomfortable two words or V mentioning that (s)he developed a cruelty-free version that simply wraps enemies and stabs them to death in accord to the PG-13 moral values would be quite conceivable.

[Keltest]

Oh. That sounds like it kinda defeat the purpose of being in Hel in the first place. Or maybe not. Is it the same way for other afterlives (like the Greenhilt family could eventually turn into devas) ?

Yes, but its even more roundabout, requiring one basically get absorbed into the plane and then spat out as a celestial. The evil afterlives at least start you off as a baby demon/devil/whatever.

[zimmerwald1915]

Something to note: dismissing a spell is a standard action. So dismissing the forcecage would allow Vaarsuvius to cast a Quickened spell the same round.

At Intelligence 24 and Evoker level 16, Vaarsuvius would have started the day with 3 8th-level spell slots, 5 7th-level spell slots, 5 6th-level spell slots, and 6 5th-level spell slots. For 8th-level spells, Vaarsuvius has cast 1 mind blank, and prepared another mind blank and an unknown evocation in her remaining 8th-level spell slots. For 7th-level spells, Vaarsuvius has cast 1 force cage and has 4 unknown spells that may not be conjurations or necromancies remaining in her 7th-level spell slots. All her other slots above 4th level remain unused.

Vaarsuvius would have lost 1 8th-level prepared spell when she gained a negative level. Because her second mind blank was mentioned, it is likely that she lost her evocation from her specialist slot.

All of which is to say that Vaarsuvius probably will not use a Quickened wall of fire (an 8th-level evocation) the same round after dropping the forcecage, but may use a Quickened fireball (a 7th-level evocation) on the vampires down one end of the hallway, possibly in tandem with Haley casting from a wand, while Roy goes a-cleavin' down the hallway in the other direction. Other 3rd-level spells and below are, of course, also on the table to be Quickened.

[Ruck]

Brother Fangstone! perfect!!!

I'd expect him to make her into a vampire (she's at least 5th level) and, why not, bring her along. For Hel, in terms of clerics, the more, the merrier.

Yeah, I mean, if he's intending to keep his promise to the letter he left out the "...after I kill you and raise you as a vampire" part.

[Chei]

This'd be a funny tactic:

V is the vampires' priority target. So someone, V or Haley with a wand, casts Obscuring Mist or one of its many derivatives. Then V or Elan cast illusions making it so that every living creature in the Forcecage looks like V, and Haley makes them all fly.

The Vaarsuvius shuffle!

[Trillium]

This'd be a funny tactic:

V is the vampires' priority target. So someone, V or Haley with a wand, casts Obscuring Mist or one of its many derivatives. Then V or Elan cast illusions making it so that every living creature in the Forcecage looks like V, and Haley makes them all fly.

The Vaarsuvius shuffle!

Then the Lawyers come on behalf of madame Rowling and drag the Order away... WHICH HAS BEEN THE PLAN ALL ALONG!
Roy shakes lawyers off with some legal mumbo-jumbo and Order engages vampires from safe distance.

[Ruck]

Does Mind Blank protect against vampiric gaze? I'd assume it would but I don't know the rules.

[Chei]

Does Mind Blank protect against vampiric gaze? I'd assume it would but I don't know the rules.

It does. Mind Blank works against everything; it is the highest-level mental abjuration in the game, and is kind of overkill in many cases (fitting, considering it's V we're talking about).