OOTS #1103 - The Discussion Thread

[JumboWheat01]

*The Joke*















*y'all*

Did The Joke cast Invisibility? I can't see it at all.

[alwaysbebatman]

I was gonna say that I still don't get it, but... that's a way funnier way to say that.

[Lombard]

I'm rooting for an Elan clutch moment. Everything is nice and still, no concentration check needed behind that wall.

[Kardwill]

But a) means that V would just have Pro Evil if needed - it's pretty trivial to get as a spell slot, wand, or scroll, if the plot demands.

Well, he would need to have the spell on his book (and we saw no indication in comic that he might have an alignment-sensitive spell - those were Durkon's turf) OR he needs to find someone who both knows the spell took the item-creation feat, and is willing to make it for him. Oh, and it will take time, something that has been in short supply since Durkon's death.
Or find it by pure chance in one of the magic shops of Gnometown. Belkar did, but he was in a very specific vampire-hunting mindset and was willing to get anything that would protect from "Durkon's" gaze (ad not "I need that item from ppXXX of the DMG"), while the others were in a general-utility shopping mood (like teleport, to shave a little time from the travels).

Sooo, not THAT trivial. Any DM can flat-out say "no you don't find a prot-from-evil wand. The city guards just bought the last one in the town. Want obscuring mist and invisibility scrolls? I have 7 of these. We had a creepy stalker mage in town, last year. Or maybe you can ask the temple of Loki? If you do some work from them, I'm sure they could create one for you".
But that's mostly because I'm an evil GM : I don't like "I win" items that allow my players to simply ignore a challenging situation without having to work for it, it's boring. So yeah, as you said, it's mostly a function of the rule of drama ;)

[Fyraltari]

Did The Joke cast Invisibility? I can't see it at all.

I was gonna say that I still don't get it, but... that's a way funnier way to say that.

You are probably trying to hard : the joke is that since V was spotted despite the spell working just fine, he could not use it to hide from Xykon (as in : it was not enough).

[In4Dimensions]

I'm rooting for an Elan clutch moment. Everything is nice and still, no concentration check needed behind that wall.

Yeah, Elan’s my favorite. He’s basically me, if I had a lower Int score.

[Peelee]

So the thought strikes me that, if V had gotten the boots of Dimension Door, he would be in a great position to jump out of the Forcecage and toss an AoE blast without worrying about hurting his friends.

Shoulda went back to the shop.

Edit: I'd like to thank everyone for ignoring the errant "not" that made it looked like i was saying the opposite of what I meant.

[Kish]

So the thought strikes me that, if V had gotten the boots of Dimension Door, he would not be in a great position to jump out of the Forcecage and toss an AoE blast without worrying about hurting his friends.

Shoulda went back to the shop.

Most likely, the boots let you Dimension Door as a standard action, not a free or swift one. Generally useful to a wizard who can't teleport at all, but worse than just dismissing the Forcecage for the current problem.

[Peelee]

Most likely, the boots let you Dimension Door as a standard action, not a free or swift one. Generally useful to a wizard who can't teleport at all, but worse than just dismissing the Forcecage for the current problem.

I was thinking move action, but you're probably right.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Most likely, the boots let you Dimension Door as a standard action, not a free or swift one. Generally useful to a wizard who can't teleport at all, but worse than just dismissing the Forcecage for the current problem.

Let me see if I understand you right. It's better to drop the Forcecage and let all those vampires take their readied actions to swarm V than it is to use the DD boots to move 'over there' and bust out the fireballs while the Order is conveniently shielded from the blast?

[Keltest]

Let me see if I understand you right. It's better to drop the Forcecage and let all those vampires take their readied actions to swarm V than it is to use the DD boots to move 'over there' and bust out the fireballs while the Order is conveniently shielded from the blast?

I believe he is saying that as soon as V exits the force cage, he is getting swarmed regardless, and the Order wont even be able to help.

[Jasdoif]

Most likely, the boots let you Dimension Door as a standard action, not a free or swift one. Generally useful to a wizard who can't teleport at all, but worse than just dismissing the Forcecage for the current problem.

Hmm....Not necessarily. I mean, dimension door is long range, so we're talking over 600 feet, certainly enough to back up in the tunnel while still being in range for spells. Positioning and distribution could be a problem (how straight is the tunnel?), but Vaarsuvius dropping standard 3rd-level fireballs around the forcecage (fireball's a spread, it'll wrap around the forcecage) would thin out the vampire spawn before dismissing the forcecage to focus fire on any vampire(s) left standing solid.

[Manty5]

Hmm....Not necessarily. I mean, dimension door is long range, so we're talking over 600 feet, certainly enough to back up in the tunnel while still being in range for spells. Positioning and distribution could be a problem (how straight is the tunnel?), but Vaarsuvius dropping standard 3rd-level fireballs around the forcecage (fireball's a spread, it'll wrap around the forcecage) would thin out the vampire spawn before dismissing the forcecage to focus fire on any vampire(s) left standing solid.

I thought that the problem was time-based, not distance-based.

V: Dismiss forcecage.
Vamps: All pile on V for 1 round before:
V: Dimension Door.

By then, the level draining that's going to be done already has been done.

Also, are you sure that the fireballs' AOE will reach outside the cage? That seems counterintuitive, since it would render forcecage useless in defending against large AOE spells. Also, there are other people inside that cage who WILL get roasted, and it's not like they have a surfeit of healers on their team.

EDIT: Looking at the person posting after me, DDing and not dismissing the cage seems ideal. The FC will actually protect those inside against the AOE that V's dishing out. But V will need to win the entire fight on its own, because it can't dismiss the cage without an standard action.

Might be better to give the DD boots to Roy though since he's the only party member who can restore his own drained levels.

[Keltest]

I thought that the problem was time-based, not distance-based.

V: Dismiss forcecage.
Vamps: All pile on V for 1 round before:
V: Dimension Door.

By then, the level draining that's going to be done already has been done.

V doesn't need to dismiss the forcecage at all, as D-door, like other teleport effects, can bypass it entirely.

[Peelee]

I thought that the problem was time-based, not distance-based.

V: Dismiss forcecage.
Vamps: All pile on V for 1 round before:
V: Dimension Door.

By then, the level draining that's going to be done already has been done.

Forcecage explicitly doesn't block teleportation. It blocks Ethereal travel, not Astral travel.

[Jasdoif]

Looking at the person posting after me, DDing and not dismissing the cage seems ideal.

Just for extra clarity, the exact case of using dimension door to escape forcecage has happened in the comic before.

But V will need to win the entire fight on its own, because it can't dismiss the cage without an standard action.

Ideally, yes....But the boots have multiple daily uses; teleporting back inside the forcecage if things are/go really wrong is on the table.

Might be better to give the DD boots to Roy though since he's the only party member who can restore his own drained levels.

Well, I was thinking Vaarsuvius staying out of range of the level draining would be good, and that Vaarsuvius already has an active mind blank to counteract dominating gaze attempts (and the eye closure means that isn't apparent to the vampires).

Then again, Vaarsuvius giving Roy the boots and a delayed blast fireball to throw at the forcecage (from the outside) to reliably incinerate all the spawn still waiting to swarm Vaarsuvius could also work, and be kinda funny. Assuming Vaarsuvius has that spell and has it prepared, of course.

[Kish]

Let me see if I understand you right. It's better to drop the Forcecage and let all those vampires take their readied actions to swarm V than it is to use the DD boots to move 'over there' and bust out the fireballs while the Order is conveniently shielded from the blast?

...do you not know what a standard action is, or what?

I'm saying it's better for Vaarsuvius to use their standard action for the round to dismiss the Forcecage, so all the Order except Vaarsuvius can attack the vampires immediately, than to use their standard action for the round to teleport outside the Forcecage so they can stand there thinking, "I'm totally going to blast you all with fireballs next round when I have another standard action to do so!" while the vampires shred them and the rest of the Order is stuck in the Forcecage for 34 hours.

Teleporting somewhere out of sight, as Jasdoif suggests, would be a better strategy, but hinges on Vaarsuvius knowing somewhere within 600 feet to teleport to that doesn't have vampires close enough to attack them, and then getting the drop on the vampires (who have far better senses than they do, because vampire clerics). I think any form of "Vaarsuvius takes on all the vampires alone" would be unwise. Since "unwise" is Vaarsuvius' middle name, they might well want to attempt it, however.

Roy using the boots to teleport out and massacre the vampires while Elan sings to buff him and Vaarsuvius readies an action to drop the Forcecage at the optimum moment, on the other hand, would be perfect.

[JumboWheat01]

You are probably trying to hard : the joke is that since V was spotted despite the spell working just fine, he could not use it to hide from Xykon (as in : it was not enough).

I regret to inform you that I still don't spot the joke. My sense of humor must be off, clearly it needs recharging.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Teleporting somewhere out of sight, as Jasdoif suggests, would be a better strategy, but hinges on Vaarsuvius knowing somewhere within 600 feet to teleport to that doesn't have vampires close enough to attack them, and then getting the drop on the vampires (who have far better senses than they do, because vampire clerics).

In all fairness, V doesn't need to get the drop on them. As long as he teleports far enough that the vampires cannot get an attack in (presumably 5 feet beyond a double move), he can teleport there, see how the vampires react, and if they stay clustered around the cage or move in block towards V, blast them to smithereens.

Said plan, however, still requires there not to be further vampires dotted around the place, and for the vampires not to simply mist up and scatter - i.e. it is hardly fool proof. But it need not depend on the vampires failing to know where V ends up.

GW

[Gwynfrid]

The plan requires, first, that the boots in question exist. If they do, then it could be made nearly foolproof: Invisibility, Dimension Door, Fireball, then dismiss Forcecage so Roy can finish off any leftover vampires.

... But I can't help feeling that V must have in mind something more tricky than this simple sequence.

[Peelee]

The plan requires, first, that the boots in question exist. If they do, then it could be made nearly foolproof: Invisibility, Dimension Door, Fireball, then dismiss Forcecage so Roy can finish off any leftover vampires.

... But I can't help feeling that V must have in mind something more tricky than this simple sequence.

The boots certainly exist. It's just a question of whether V bought them. Considering their color, my gold is on "no," though he could have dyed them.

[Turin_19]

If Belkar gives his Protection from Evil ring to V, would s/he be level-drained if touched?

[Keltest]

If Belkar gives his Protection from Evil ring to V, would s/he be level-drained if touched?

Yes, although it would make it mildly more difficult for them to successfully hit him.

[Yendor]

The boots certainly exist. It's just a question of whether V bought them. Considering their color, my gold is on "no," though he could have dyed them.

Or V isn't wearing them, for some reason. (Which is a shame, because they match V's hair so well. )

Dimension Door can bring two people along (assuming the minimum caster level), which raises the possibility of someone else putting on the boots and jumping with V, leaving V free to act, and bringing Haley and her Wands of Mystery along with them.

[Jasdoif]

Teleporting somewhere out of sight, as Jasdoif suggests, would be a better strategy, but hinges on Vaarsuvius knowing somewhere within 600 feet to teleport to that doesn't have vampires close enough to attack them, and then getting the drop on the vampires (who have far better senses than they do, because vampire clerics).

Finding a safe spot is, unfortunately, a particular issue (the positioning and distribution problem I probably should've elaborated on). Dimension door explicitly says you can't take any other actions until your next turn, so even the basic "teleport-then-move" isn't an option. Unless the range can reach near/inside the temple, or a few others can teleport along (which I think would be strange for a worn magic item), there's going to be some risk of the unknown regardless.

...and maybe that's why you brought up the "the devil you know" course of dismissing the forcecage instead, and coping with the known threat instead of an unknown one.

[Turin_19]

Yes, although it would make it mildly more difficult for them to successfully hit him.

V being Neutral, would that cause issues?

(Sorry for the newbie questions, but I never played D&D).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

V being Neutral, would that cause issues?

Let me put it this way: according to D&D rules, the clasp shouldn't even harm Belkar. It nevertheless does harm him, so we are off the rules chart. It is anyone's guess, therefore, how this item would interact with a supposedly-Neutral-but-might-have-dipped-into-Evil elf.

GW

[Peelee]

Finding a safe spot is, unfortunately, a particular issue (the positioning and distribution problem I probably should've elaborated on). Dimension door explicitly says you can't take any other actions until your next turn, so even the basic "teleport-then-move" isn't an option.

Dang, forgot about that part. 5e's Misty Step has really spoiled me for on the short-range teleport front.

Clearly, Haley will have a wand that can teleport V out, where V can then one-hit KO the low-level vamps and on his next turn dismiss Forcecage so the rest of the party can gang up on the beefier vamps. Also they'll all get kittens.

[Jasdoif]

Clearly, Haley will have a wand that can teleport V out, where V can then one-hit KO the low-level vamps and on his next turn dismiss Forcecage so the rest of the party can gang up on the beefier vamps. Also they'll all get kittens.

Or, Roy happens to have a contingent item of "undeath to death when I gain a negative level", the other setup for the transmute vampire smoke to kittens gambit.

[Chei]

Let me put it this way: according to D&D rules, the clasp shouldn't even harm Belkar. It nevertheless does harm him, so we are off the rules chart. It is anyone's guess, therefore, how this item would interact with a supposedly-Neutral-but-might-have-dipped-into-Evil elf.

GW

My guess is that the clasp wouldn't harm V, which would annoy the folks who think it should, leading to large walls of text.