Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

[Collin152]

By that same logic, lets just throw the spellcasters back in, because as far as we've seen, there is nothing to prove thy don't exist, so why get rid of them?
Oh, and the ability to take out the whole platoon? Yeah, that's really more along the lines of an "At will" ability, and monks as they stand don't really do it either, given their closest comparison, Stunning Fist just kind of knocks them out. This is more delicate then that; after they regained conciousness they were still paralyzed.

[averagejoe]

That's hardly what I said. I believe "straw man" is the term that's become so popular these days.

Anyways, what seems to be your main gripe could be fixed simply by making a stunning fist related feat, or modify the way it works for monks, perhaps with some sort of level progression. It doesn't really merit a whole prestige class.

[Collin152]

I disagree, as do others.
I see you concede the point that monks need serious keelhauling, do you not?

[averagejoe]

I don't know what you see, because I never conceded the point. I'll grant that one or two abilities could do with change, but it doesn't need "serious keelhauling."

You disagree, but I haven't been given any reason why you disagree. I'm willing to concede that there may be some things I've missed. However, the only concrete argument you've made would involve could be represented by a simple change in a special ability, or a feat at most. There isn't any need to build a prestige class around what basically amounts to a feat.

[Collin152]

Considering you did not continue to defend the monks usability, I assumed you gave up. If you will notice, most of the monks abilities are unsuable. Would you like me to list them?

Ty Lee's abilities seem to be very unique. That just screams prestige class. I just don't see why your so adamantly against one. A feat alone gives too much power at once. The ability to both disrupt bending AND paralyze parts of an opponants body/an opponants entire body, all with a single blow, consistantly? Call me crazy (Don't. Even. Dare. ) but that sounds a might too strong for a mere feat.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Calm yourself, Collin.

I have to agree that the monk would require a variant for this setting, since even poor Ember's pitiful save-or-die would be against flavor in this setting, and it would be a nice draw to have a full set of properly reflavored classes for the Avatar world. Meph and I have been discussing via PM the possibility for an entire Avatar setting, but I'm hesitant to consider it at a period in time when the Airbender isn't even completed. I personally think that a monk variant in which there's a special ability tree based around which martial art the monk takes (kind of like Iames' monk variant that's easily searchable on this forum). Then, quite simply, make a martial art special ability tree for disabling the flow of chi and BAM! Ty Lee/Tai Li (could anyone get me an official spelling of her name please?).

Anyway, I missed the opener for the Book of Fire a few hours ago because my ancient VCR refuses to tape the program that I tell it to. See, a VCR is a machine from back in the day, it involves obscenely large cassettes that won't fit in your pocket and don't clip onto your shirt...

You get the idea. Beginnings of the Airbender should be up by the end of the weekend. With some luck. And prayer or two.

[Collin152]

I'm calm, was just frustrated.
It's Ty Lee, but I prefer the spelling of Tai li.
Diddn't miss much on that.
Wooh, airbender.
Project "Icebender PrC" is nearly done by half.

[averagejoe]

I never stopped defending a wide change to monks, my arguments were never adressed. Although, to be fair, you've convinced me that some change is probably necessary, just not a massive overhaul.

You say she's very unique, but you've listed two things, one of which is already covered above. I'm not "So adamantly against them," I just haven't heard anything convincing. I'm not taking this stance just to take the stance, and I'll never be dissuaded from it; I'm taking this stance because, upon examining the evidence, it seems the thing to do. This is something I'm very willing to be convinced of, but I haven't been given any reason to be convinced.

However, even if a prestige class was necessary, what you're suggesting, "The ability to both disrupt bending AND paralyze parts of an opponants body/an opponants entire body, all with a single blow, consistantly?" is a bit overpowered. She's allowed to do this in show, because people are only paralized as the plot required, but in DnD there needs to be some way to counteract it; it can't be what you suggest, because the fight would end on a monk's turn every time. Perhaps I mistake you, but it seems that you're just suggesting an increase in power to stunning fist; that is, increasing the duration and consistancy. I mean, you also see guys knocked out in one hit in Avatar, an impossibility at higher level DnD, but I don't see anyone clamoring for a prestige class based on that. It's a show, and is naturally going to lose something in the translation to a game, where it is a set of rules that determines the success of actions, not the plot.

[Ceiling009]

You know it's kinda sad, but I haven't quite bothered to start on the healing Conditions Prc... but I gotta look at somethings probably from the Tome of Magic to see how prestige classes that would focus on single skill check types would work... Cause I would imagine new seeds, and some things that I'm not quite sure about...

[Collin152]

Hm. I sense great discontent within you. You seem very earnest to destroy my own points for no great reason. You claim to have unapposed points, but do not represent them. You claim my points are invalid without saying why. And you seem to desire to discredit me as being able to help shape Ty Lee's capabilitys. Could it be you simply do not want to accept that your initial point, that Ty Lee was just a monk as monks are written, was invalid?

[averagejoe]

What? When did this get personal? I've never minded being wrong. But, that's when I'm wrong. And, as for trying to discredit you, well, frankly, I really don't have anything against you, and have no reason at all to have a vendetta against you. I'm simply trying to say that you're wrong because I think you are, it's as simple as that. When it comes to interpersonal relations I have no subtlety at all. I lack the guile for deep alterior motives. I'm arguing this point because I honestly believe myself to be right, it's as simple as that.

Also, I've said at great length why your point is invalid, which makes me question how carefully you've been reading. In a nutshell, you've talked about one ability, which hasen't already been covered, which makes Ty Lee different from a monk. One ability does not a prestige class make.

That said, I am intrigued, Seraph, by your suggestion of the monk revamp, with alternate martial arts styles. A while back I started on a similar idea for a Samurai revamp along the same lines (but quit when I realized that I don't really know very much about swords at all ), but I never really followed through with the idea for a monk. That could actually be fairly interesting.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Yes, well, that's grounds for another thread. If we REALLY wanted to portray the various martial arts accurately, there'd have to be some monks with d12 hit dice, damage reduction 10/piercing, and massive Strength and damage bonuses to unarmed strikes (Shotokan Karate). Like, even more massive. At the same time, we'd need to have martial arts with d6 hit dice, dodge bonuses to the tune of +1/2 levels, and the ability to feint as a free action 3 times/round (Capoeira).

While I would wholeheartedly and enthusiastically help that project in any way possible, it is nonetheless material for a separate thread.

Project "Icebender PrC" is nearly done by half.

Uh...Icebender? Wouldn't that be, y'know, a waterbender? I understand what you're thinking by making a specialization, but that would be more easily portrayed as a waterbender that takes mostly ice-based seeds. I know that there's not enough ice-based seeds to really do that right now, but I would be happy and a half to place any that you think of on the waterbender class after we work out the kinks here on the forum.

You know it's kinda sad, but I haven't quite bothered to start on the healing Conditions Prc...

Awww! I wanted to do the healing PrC!
*pout*
Anyway, if you want to do it, Ceiling, go ahead. I had some ideas, but it was basically going to be the waterbender with a different seed list and some added options for things like Water Blast. If you've got something more original, then dish it out whenever it's ready and we'll improve it as we can.

Anyway, without ruining it for me, how's season 3 looking? Anything world-shatteringly awesome or class-breakingly different?

[Copacetic]

Well, as far as earthshaterng revelations, Katara can now create a mist lagre enough to engulf two firenation ships and then some. Toph can bend metal, and Aang has Hair!...... Hair!

I noticed something, the more variety you have in benders, The better they get.

Ex: Say 50 Fire benders defending a city agaisn't 500 odd raiders get easily overwhelmed. But if it's 30 Earth benders and 30 firebenders, Then the earth benders can create earthen walls to protect the city and earthen columns to put the Fire benders out of reach but still close enough to go to town with firestorm And not have to worry about the crappy defensive stuff. Change, the numbers again, say 15 Fire benders, 30 Earth benders, and 5 Water benders. Here the Water benders can heal some, and use the water from the village(assuming there s one) to whip people from the same level as the Fire benders. Keeping the same amount of benders, And changing the benderstyles, who can greatly increase there chances for survival. (All benders used in this example are af varrying level)

[Ceiling009]

I'm getting stuck on the Healing/Conditions PrC... I know what I want for requirements... but as to what they can do.. it's looking more like a bending version of Ty Lee... which I don't want... I mean, I don't want it cheesy (not broken) like Warlock Hellrime blast or something... I want to make seeds that are body centric, which can go either into heavy duty healing or at least produce conditions in an offensive manner... I know you don't like save or dies, and quite frankly neither do I, and this would be more of a battlefield controller/healer than a heal bot...but it's getting difficult to get original mechanical ideas for it work...but in the same line as skill based checks...

[Eighth_Seraph]

Well, as far as earthshaterng revelations, Katara can now create a mist lagre enough to engulf two firenation ships and then some. Toph can bend metal, and Aang has Hair!...... Hair!

Good, the first two are accounted for. I'll make sure to make an airbending seed involving the growth of hair.

I noticed something, the more variety you have in benders, The better they get.
[concise and convincing example]

I believe that in DnD terms, this would be known as a "party". Such groups are usually characterized by variations in emphasis keeping everyone alive. I'm glad to know that the classes are coming across as they should be.

Does anyone know when some legal source will have the full episode up, or if it's getting an encore in the near future?

[Ceiling009]

Well, itunes may be getting them sooner or later...dunno about encores. I would check tvguide.com for listings of all showings in your area. And I think I've solved the problem I had for the healing/condition prc...

[Hranat]

First episode is online, for people who missed it or, like me, happen to live in Yurp.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

[Collin152]

Uh...Icebender? Wouldn't that be, y'know, a waterbender?

Just a project name. It's really just a specialist, and its mostly for my own personal usage. The names certain to change, but I needed to have one to work with.

After all, "sandbenders" are just specialised earthbenders, no?

[Ceiling009]

I don't think anyone really knows the deal with the sandbender... Cause, sure they bend sand, which lends itself to being a subset of earthbending... but the way they do the sandskimmers, and the like... it's almost air like or water like... who knows...

[Slartibartfast]

The sandskimers is bending sand in a circular tornado motion fast enough to create a wind string enough to make the skimmer move. Pure earthbending.

Also Colin: In the Waterbender, for Maintaining Water you list the DC as the Bending Check - 10. Shouldn't it be the Bending Check-Total Bending DC? Maybe something added on to that, but shouldn't a better roll make it easier to maintain the water rather than harder? And the normal penalties for being out of the "safe" range should still apply; might want to mention that specifically as an anti-munchkin thing.

[averagejoe]

Yeah, Toph was clearly shown to bend sand. I dunno, such "sub tribes" or whatever could be more interesting as villains than PC's, just because one could conjecture that they would be much less strong outside of their specific subset (i.e. sandbenders out of the desert) but much more powerful within it. Although, to be fair, sandbenders didn't seem to be very powerful at all, so perhaps such classes could just be "not full bending" classes, like the bard or ranger. Not as powerful as spellcasters, but have other useful abilities. Sandbenders, for example, seem like some rougelike abilities would fit. It's kind of an interesting place to explore.

[Lord Tataraus]

Yeah, Toph was clearly shown to bend sand. I dunno, such "sub tribes" or whatever could be more interesting as villains than PC's, just because one could conjecture that they would be much less strong outside of their specific subset (i.e. sandbenders out of the desert) but much more powerful within it. Although, to be fair, sandbenders didn't seem to be very powerful at all, so perhaps such classes could just be "not full bending" classes, like the bard or ranger. Not as powerful as spellcasters, but have other useful abilities. Sandbenders, for example, seem like some rougelike abilities would fit. It's kind of an interesting place to explore.

That's true, but are their really any other "sub tribes"? So far its just sandbenders that I see.

[Vadin]

Is it just me, or did the whole Avatar party level up from that last fight? And did Sakka put a point or two in intelligence, or what?

On a more serious note, does Toph's ease of earthbending metal mean that it's doable as easily as bending normal rock after a certain level, or is she just ridiculously powerful?

If ridiculously powerful is the case, then it seems to me that the Traits/Flaws system in effect, and that blindness flaw has given her some CRAZY bending bonuses.

[Darkbane]

Toph is ridiculously powerful. I remember a line from Mephibosheth's Avatar thread, when everybody was arguing about the Tremorsense form: "We've agreed that what Toph has isn't Tremorsense; it's Tremorsense on Crack."

Sub-tribes: well, there're also all of the Foggy Swamp waterbenders; their bending style looks alot different from North and South Pole waterbending. Maybe create a generic NPC bending class, the Avatar equivalent of the Adept, or just fill out some sandbender levels with commoner, warrior, or expert.

[Collin152]

The sandskimers is bending sand in a circular tornado motion fast enough to create a wind string enough to make the skimmer move. Pure earthbending.

Also Colin: In the Waterbender, for Maintaining Water you list the DC as the Bending Check - 10. Shouldn't it be the Bending Check-Total Bending DC? Maybe something added on to that, but shouldn't a better roll make it easier to maintain the water rather than harder? And the normal penalties for being out of the "safe" range should still apply; might want to mention that specifically as an anti-munchkin thing.

Well, first off, it's got two "L"'s in the name. Second, waterbender aint mine, so I diddn't lit it. Just a bit of perfectionism. Now as for the DC, it seems fine. To maitain the water used in a DC 40 form, you roll a DC 30 concentration check. For a DC 700 waterbending form, a DC 690 concentration check.
"Eureka! Dahk ist un greiebun simpul!"

[averagejoe]

That's true, but are their really any other "sub tribes"? So far its just sandbenders that I see.

I thought that was the idea with the icebender thing. Maybe not. Even if this isn't the case, it wouldn't be difficult to think up others. If it's prestige classes you want then it would get a bit rediculous with more than one per tribe anyways.

[Ceiling009]

The thing about benders, is that they, in a way are like casters enough that they can warrant prestige classes for specialties, like metalbending, plantbending, sandbending, not so much for the lightning, and other things. In a logical point of view, if the benders really understood some more of the intricacies of their art, they could easily do more than just what the show does... but unlike casters, the seeds and the forms are really free form, and can do almost anything, so making a prestige class has to be really specific, something that the current seeds did not focus on, or something that can't be emulated via mixing the seeds. So, an Icebender, unless there are really ice specific seeds, or something is still really an waterbender that really chose all his/her seeds to be based in cold... heck, you could make a feat like...

Blood of Ice
Requirements: Waterbending 11, Ice Shards seed, Armor, and Steady Stance
Benefit: You gain a resistance to cold damage 10 + Wis mod, and all ice based seeds decrease their DC by 5.
Normal: Waterbenders are still susceptible to cold damage.

that's just an example... and no I didn't quite mean it to be taken as is...
The sub tribes idea is interesting, maybe you could make those feats that would do something... while a few sub tribes would have to be prestige...

[Collin152]

Mmmm, what I got going is just a tad more complex. Sure, theres new seeds, as well as waterbending bonuses for Ice texhniques, but also less statistical ice-using bonuses. A work in progress, but like many quality prestige classes, it will sacrifice much of its potential for versatility for a very powerful aspect. Reduced ability to utilize liquid water, fewer seeds overall, and no progression on the swim ability. Maybe It'll be done soon, but it needs a lot more depth.
Oh, and cold resistance? Great idea, Ill try to incoorporate it.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Since versatility is a main part of the game, perhaps prestige classes should be unique-to-the-players techniques, a personnal style.

And now for something completely different.

I saw on Meph's own thread a debate about Benders multiclassing and thought a moment about it. In the Avatar world, it is quite sure(for now) that beside the said Avatar it never happens. But in another campaign, people needs the sheer awesomeness of a guy who can manipulate(watch this!) TWO elements!

So here is exhumed, GESTAAAAAAALT SPIRIIIIIIIIIT!!!(With a voice ala PIIIIIIIIGS IN SPAAAAAACE!!!; thanks Yuki Akuma!)
Gestalt Spirit[General]
Perhaps by mixed ancestry or incredible spiritual phenomena you have achieved to master two of the primal elements. You are destined to great feats, and the faithful respect you.
Prerequisites: Any Bending 4 ranks, another Bending 2 ranks, Knowledge(Religion) 2 ranks, Knowledge(Bending) 4 ranks Any Bending class 1st level
Benefits: You can now multiclass between two different Bending classes.
From this time, multiclassing through other classes than these two is forbidden, as the monk and paladin. Your two classes levels stack for the purpose of your Fire Resistance/Climb Speed/Swim Speed/Airbender thingy special class ability. You can learn seeds of your other Bending element whenever you gain a new one, as you can normally manipulate them between their elements.
Normal: Multiclassing in two variants of the same class is forbidden.
Special: You can only take this feat at 1st level, and cannot select your opposite element.

Sorry for the dramatic entry.
Keep up the good work.

[drawingfreak]

Has the ability to see things in the Spirit World as if it was in the real world been addressed yet? In a few episodes, Iroh spotted spirits no one else saw. The origin of such an ability is unknown as of yet, but what would it be in game? A feat? Spell-like Ability?