OOTS #1104 - The Discussion Thread

[Jasdoif]

We see the aura of the spell covering 15 vampires (including Sandstone). Since the spell affects 1 creature/level, it means he's at least 15th.

Or has a CL boost.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Btw really lvl 15 ? I wouldnt have thought that - might it be a bluff?

I find it more likely it's two castings, compressed into a single panel for storytelling succinctness.

Because it he was level 15, he could have cast regeneration, and we know no-one in Durkon's town could back in the day.

GW

[Jethro_Thrull]

Wow, I'm like super disappointed in Roy right now.

[D.One]

What is interesting is the vampire didn't ready an action to cast mass fire resist for when V starts casting the spell. Stop the damage and they hit themselves. I wonder if he has a spell or something up his sleeve that is even worse (or if the fire resistance isn't actually good enough and he is bluffing that it is so V won't try).

His main mission seems to be to stop the Order from interfering. If he stalls them in the Forcecage, he's acomplishing it. On 15th level, his MRE gives Fire Resistance 30 to each target, which means Fireball (max 10d6) will be severely reduced.

And... if he readies an action to cast it, his action will be such, and not attacking the order with other nasty spell a 15th level cleric may have...

[PH7]

Also deserving recognition, a few giggles and our respect: "the cat stopped licking itself" and "vrock, paper, scissors".

[Quebbster]

Would Sandstone's spell level be increased since he became a vampire? Or was he level 15+ before the vampirization?
Just a little curious since we know he is not the High Priest, so the question is if Rubyrock should be assumed to be even higher level...
Also, it's worth noting that Durkula let his minions finish Sandstone off, so presumably they are quite high level too to be able to deal with a high level spellcaster with ease.

[D.One]

I find it more likely it's two castings, compressed into a single panel for storytelling succinctness.

Because it he was level 15, he could have cast regeneration, and we know no-one in Durkon's town could back in the day.

GW

Maybe, back in the day, he wasn't 15th.

Anyway, he may indeed have some caster level boost...

[Ruck]

Also deserving recognition, a few giggles and our respect: "the cat stopped licking itself" and "vrock, paper, scissors".

"vrock, paper, scissors"?

[Gwynfrid]

And on to a fresh round of the Inept PCs. We hadn't had that in a while. And here I was thinking that V was playing a clever trick keeping her eyes closed. Oh well... Anyway, that makes for a fun strip!

[Fyraltari]

I find it more likely it's two castings, compressed into a single panel for storytelling succinctness.

Because it he was level 15, he could have cast regeneration, and we know no-one in Durkon's town could back in the day.

GW

Yes but brother Sandstone just came back from adventuring with the Order of the Branch, they brought peace to the entire Northern Continent by securing a wedding beetwen the ruling family of Somewhere and the heir of one of the biggest trade empires of Some Place Else by foiling the nefarious plot of Prince Lakaïos a dreaded half-dragon warlock who tried to cause a war so that the bloodshed would allow him to cast a ritual to merge the Material Plane and Hell and rule it as its undying god-emperor.

Then he got killed by a random bunch of vampires because of some other group's sidequest.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Would Sandstone's spell level be increased since he became a vampire? Or was he level 15+ before the vampirization?

Vampirisation doesn't grant you levels. It does increase your CR (by 2) making it, in fact, harder to gain further levels.

Maybe, back in the day, he wasn't 15th.

It's a possibility, but an unlikely one. A cleric can start casting regeneration at level 13, which means this priest, not even the High Priest of Thor, went from at most level 12 to level 15 while minding shop, even though by canon and the author's words, it is quite hard for non-adventuring priests to gain levels (indeed, the reason goblins exist is to facilitate leveling).

Yes, maybe he's a prodigy that went on adventures and just came back and was given the Firmament church as reward for services... but then I wonder how he was taken down so easily by four vampires. A level 15 priest is no laughing matter for undeads of any stripe. Certainly not something the most powerful of those vampires can simply ignore while he places a call.

Grey Wolf

[Psyren]

I find it more likely it's two castings, compressed into a single panel for storytelling succinctness.

Because it he was level 15, he could have cast regeneration, and we know no-one in Durkon's town could back in the day.

GW

Actually, the main reason given was that she couldn't afford it, even if other clerics had the ability. At the time there was one, but even if others gained the necessary levels in the interim, her poverty appears to have been fairly static, and her only son getting exiled is unlikely to have improved that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually, the main reason given was that she couldn't afford it, even if other clerics had the ability. At the time there was one, but even if others gained the necessary levels in the interim, her poverty appears to have been fairly static, and her only son getting exiled is unlikely to have improved that.

No, the main reason is that only the High Priest of Odin in the dwarven capital can cast it. Which discards a random non-high-priest of Thor in Firmament. The lack of money is a secondary concern, even if Durkon fixates on it.

GW

[PH7]

"vrock, paper, scissors"?

See the twitter feed (on the left side left on the screen, underneath site navigation).

[Rogar Demonblud]

See, this is why mages in our groups tend to use acid spells. Immunity to the other energy types comes up way too often.

Also, we now know that V lost her 8th level Evocation spell when she got drained.

[Quebbster]

Vampirisation doesn't grant you levels. It does increase your CR (by 2) making it, in fact, harder to gain further levels.

Gotcha. I'm not familiar with the minutiae of D&D rules, and just recalled something mentioned about a level increase.
I do like the theory of two castings though, it also explains why Fangstone did it immediately instead of waiting until the cage dropped. That would put him at least at level 8, right?

[Kish]

That's what they get for not having someone take the Fell Conspiracy feat. At their level, they'd have an all-day party-wide telepathic link.

I doubt Examplars of Evil is available to the heroes.

THIS. V is spectacularly bad at his job, yet he's still one of the best adventuring wizards in the world. Sad!



Incorrect, it's in Complete Arcane - and we know that book is "in play" because of Tsukiko's orbs.

She called them evocations; it seems likely therefore that they were Tome and Blood orbs rather than Complete Arcane's Conjuration orbs.

Vampirisation doesn't grant you levels. It does increase your CR (by 2) making it, in fact, harder to gain further levels.

CR doesn't matter to gaining levels, only to how much XP you give someone who overcomes you. However, becoming a vampire increases your ECL (effective class level) by 8, making it much harder to gain further levels.

(Something that increases your CR will always or almost always increase your ECL by as much or more, or simply turn it to - as you are no longer suited to be a PC ever.)

[IntelectPaladin]

I laughed harder at this strip than I have laughed in a long time.
Well done, Giant, and thank you for the bright spot in my day.

[Kantaki]

Ah yes, the dangers of discussing strategy in front of your foe.
Also the answer to Roy's question is clearly „Roy”.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Gotcha. I'm not familiar with the minutiae of D&D rules, and just recalled something mentioned about a level increase.

Fair enough. As you can see from Kish's correction, neither am I.

I do like the theory of two castings though, it also explains why Fangstone did it immediately instead of waiting until the cage dropped. That would put him at least at level 8, right?

Yeah (although once you open the door to "multiple casts shown as one" there is no real reason it couldn't have been 3 casts). On the other hand, the spell itself will have a minimum caster level (about level 5, I'd wager, but I don't have the book), which means he'd have to be at least cleric level 9.

What is the level of the lightning spell? Is it even called that? I can't find it in the cleric spell lists.

GW

[D.One]

It's a possibility, but an unlikely one. A cleric can start casting regeneration at level 13, which means this priest, not even the High Priest of Thor, went from at most level 12 to level 15 while minding shop, even though by canon and the author's words, it is quite hard for non-adventuring priests to gain levels (indeed, the reason goblins exist is to facilitate leveling).

Yes, maybe he's a prodigy that went on adventures and just came back and was given the Firmament church as reward for services... but then I wonder how he was taken down so easily by four vampires. A level 15 priest is no laughing matter for undeads of any stripe. Certainly not something the most powerful of those vampires can simply ignore while he places a call.

Grey Wolf

He might in fact be 13th or 14th level, with some CL boost

He being unable to cast Regeneration 18 years ago doesn't mean he couldn't have gained level enough by now.

[Fyraltari]

I just noticed that Fangstone robes are purple while the other Cerics arewearing blue, an indication of rank perhaps.

Of note, his robes were blue when he died.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He being unable to cast Regeneration 18 years ago doesn't mean he couldn't have gained level enough by now.

Again: high level priests are NOT common in OotS. The last 18 years have been quite quiet for the world, so there haven't been that many chances to gain levels outside of adventuring. This guy isn't even the High Priest of Thor, nor is Firmament a major city. If level 13+ priests are so common one just happened to be the caretaker of a minor town, why was it so hard to find one to resurrect Roy?

Also, it's not 1 level. Its at least 3, and quite high ones at that. How much XP does it take to go from 12th to 15th, I wonder?

ETA: Also, if he was 15, he'd literally be more powerful a cleric than Greg. And yet his posse was able to take him down without Greg's help? How powerful is the Turn undead of a 15th level cleric versus sub-14 level vampires?

Grey Wolf

[Eragon123]

I just noticed that Fangstone robes are purple while the other Cerics arewearing blue, an indication of rank perhaps.

Of note, his robes were blue when he died.

Could just be that V's light is purple-ish red bouncing off blue robes.

[Kish]

Tracking levels and class and level geekery threads aside, I will be surprised if I learn Greg is lower level than 16th at this point.

Though it still seems rather odd that Rich would so-casually dispose of a 15th-level cleric fighting enemies he should have been able to Turn handily. More likely...well, Rich often handwaves away casting limits (see: Tsukiko teleporting a group of wights, Shojo's wizard teleporting a group of six people).

[zimmerwald1915]

Who called Vaarsuvius having quickened fireball prepared?

It's a shame for my prediction record that she won't be using it like I predicted (she explicitly suggested doing so, and was summarily pre-empted by the vampire's action), but that's alright. Now it's been announced, it could show up later.

[subanark]

How far underground are they? If there was some way to punch a hole to the surface they could burn all the vamps with sunlight.

Come on Roy use your skill in architecture to get everyone out of this.

[Ruck]

See the twitter feed (on the left side left on the screen, underneath site navigation).

Oh, I see, thanks. I usually keep the sidebar closed. Also, I didn't know what a Vrock was.

How far underground are they? If there was some way to punch a hole to the surface they could burn all the vamps with sunlight.

Come on Roy use your skill in architecture to get everyone out of this.

"Lad, yer ability to identify weaknesses in this structure is worthy of Sapper Thundershield himself!"

[D.One]

Again: high level priests are NOT common in OotS. The last 18 years have been quite quiet for the world, so there haven't been that many chances to gain levels outside of adventuring. This guy isn't even the High Priest of Thor, nor is Firmament a major city. If level 13+ priests are so common one just happened to be the caretaker of a minor town, why was it so hard to find one to resurrect Roy?

Also, it's not 1 level. Its at least 3, and quite high ones at that. How much XP does it take to go from 12th to 15th, I wonder?

ETA: Also, if he was 15, he'd literally be more powerful a cleric than Greg. And yet his posse was able to take him down without Greg's help? How powerful is the Turn undead of a 15th level cleric versus sub-14 level vampires?

Grey Wolf

Don't really think it's a minor city, at least not for the church of Thor, since it's where the previous (and maybe the current) High Priest of Thor resided.

Again, he might as well be 14th level or 13th level now, with some sort of caster level bonus, and this would reduce the level gap. Or he might not live in Firmament by that time, living elsewhere.

The fact that 13th+ level clerics are rare doesn't mean they are non-existent.

And we have no reason to believe he never went on adventuring.

Even if he was supposed to be a very hard oponent for the vampires, most of the fight occurred off-panel, so we can't quite know how the battle went. It was probably a surprise attack from someone who knew the best time to strike.

In fact, the only evidence we have until now is that there was a single caster level 15+ casting of Mass Resist Energy.

I quote The Giant here:

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

[Psyren]

She called them evocations; it seems likely therefore that they were Tome and Blood orbs rather than Complete Arcane's Conjuration orbs.

It's seems more likely to me that the Giant used imprecise or half-remembered terminology there, than that he went all the way back to a 3.0 source after having converted the entire world away from it in the first strip.

Regardless, my main point to warmachine was that Mass Resist Energy is in fact a spell that exists in D&D.