Hey! So I'm running my first game! And...

[Trey Bright]

I was wondering if there was any way for a Paladin to become a lich? I have an idea for a bbeg type character. He started out as this holy divine goody two shoes warrior, but as time progressed, be became disillusioned with the state of the world, and changed to an Oath of Conquest paladin. I really also wanted to make him a lich. The party would find his skull and he'd have two gems where his eyes should be. Inside one of the emeralds would be a ring (his phylactery). Because he used to be a great hero, I was thinking an NPC might sacrifice them self to revive him. Isn't a demilich just a sentient skull that the lich devolves in to if they don't consume a soul with their phylactery? I was going to say that's what the Skull was. When the NPC sacrifices them self, he'd be brought to his full power, and help the party with whatever problem they're currently facing that required such extreme actions to be taken. I don't want the players to know that he's a lich/demilich though and one of the players is a super veteran player and my old DM. I really want to be able to pull one over on him without playing dirty. Any advice would be appreciated!

[Honest Tiefling]

I was wondering if there was any way for a Paladin to become a lich? I have an idea for a bbeg type character. He started out as this holy divine goody two shoes warrior, but as time progressed, be became disillusioned with the state of the world, and changed to an Oath of Conquest paladin.

Having a 'good' character fall can be tricky(hey, Star Wars Prequels, how you doin'?) but in no way should you stop this. You should however, map out exactly how he changed his world view and what events triggered it. A bit of personal grief and revenge always works out well for this and it's probably better to go overboard then to make him seem like he threw a hissy fit over a tiny issue.

Perhaps...He was a half-orc? He faced so much prejudice that it convinced him to give in to his orcish side.

I really also wanted to make him a lich.

Make sure you have reasons prepared so that the players can't join him in lichdom.

The party would find his skull and he'd have two gems where his eyes should be. Inside one of the emeralds would be a ring (his phylactery). Because he used to be a great hero, I was thinking an NPC might sacrifice them self to revive him.

You're going to have to explain this to me. Firstly, how has he not revived already and secondly, how are you introducing him to the party? Avoid exposition dumps whenever possible.

Isn't a demilich just a sentient skull that the lich devolves in to if they don't consume a soul with their phylactery?

Are you playing an established setting like Greyhawk or Darksun? If not, a Demilich is whatever the hell you say it is. As long as you communicate with your players that you are making your own world with your own rules, go wild. Hells, why would every single ritual to make a lich produce the same type of lich? Shouldn't there be variants or something by now?

I was going to say that's what the Skull was. When the NPC sacrifices them self, he'd be brought to his full power, and help the party with whatever problem they're currently facing that required such extreme actions to be taken. I don't want the players to know that he's a lich/demilich though and one of the players is a super veteran player and my old DM. I really want to be able to pull one over on him without playing dirty. Any advice would be appreciated!

1) Have a plan if the sacrifice is stopped. The NPC could be killed, or the players might stop him for whatever reason.

2) If the DM figures it out, pretend that was your plan all along. If he's expecting you to trick him every time, he'll be expecting it. It might take a few tries to trick your players, don't worry.

3) So...What happens if the players want to redeem the NPC Pally-Lich?

[Unoriginal]

I was wondering if there was any way for a Paladin to become a lich? I have an idea for a bbeg type character. He started out as this holy divine goody two shoes warrior, but as time progressed, be became disillusioned with the state of the world, and changed to an Oath of Conquest paladin. I really also wanted to make him a lich. The party would find his skull and he'd have two gems where his eyes should be. Inside one of the emeralds would be a ring (his phylactery). Because he used to be a great hero, I was thinking an NPC might sacrifice them self to revive him. Isn't a demilich just a sentient skull that the lich devolves in to if they don't consume a soul with their phylactery? I was going to say that's what the Skull was. When the NPC sacrifices them self, he'd be brought to his full power, and help the party with whatever problem they're currently facing that required such extreme actions to be taken. I don't want the players to know that he's a lich/demilich though and one of the players is a super veteran player and my old DM. I really want to be able to pull one over on him without playing dirty. Any advice would be appreciated!

Sure, a Paladin can become a Lich. Strictly speaking, long as the person in question learns the dark rituals needed to become a Lich, then it doesn't matter which class they are.

The only problem is that a Paladin couldn't cast the spell needed to capture the souls the Lich has to eat (Paladin would need a magic item to be able to cast that spell). Which might explain why your guy became a Demilich (either they were never able to feed, or they had the item to do so but it was stolen) .

Now, the thing is, it's significantly easier (and less costly) for a Paladin to become a Death Knight, so most evil Paladins wouldn't bother.

Aside from that, there is four points I need to tell you about, because otherwise you'll face big troubles if you try what you're planning.

1)Resurrection spells don't require a sacrifice in 5e. If a NPC has to kill themselves to revive the "hero from the past", pretty much everyone present will see it's fishy immediately.

2) If you describe a skull with gemstones in the eyes, there is 99.9% chances that your veteran player immediately deduce the skull is a Demilich. It's way too iconic an appearance to not be noticed.

You'd need something less common, like for exemple an arm holding the Paladin's sword, all enveloped in a golden funerary shroud or the like. Or if you want to still make it a skull, maybe have it be a skull with a crown/military helmet, without jewels in the eyes.

3) Some Lich can get away with carrying their Phylactery on themselves, but most are wise enough to do the smart thing and keep them hidden far away to avoid having their Phylactery destroyed anytime they're defeated.

4)Even if weakened by the loss of its spells and body, a Demilich is STILL an incredibly smart, wise and charismatic opponent. Don't be afraid to have them be as smart as their statblock implies.


In any case, it's a pretty nice idea you have here. Make sure to give your BBEG a ring or something that makes him appear as a living person, and you're set.

Just be very prudent to not fall into the pitfalls of "gotcha! I totally outsmarted you and now you lost" that some DMs who work too much on their scenaristic twists fall into.

Also be aware that players might not enjoy being betrayed if it wasn't forshadowed/brought up properly

[Trey Bright]

Having a 'good' character fall can be tricky(hey, Star Wars Prequels, how you doin'?) but in no way should you stop this. You should however, map out exactly how he changed his world view and what events triggered it. A bit of personal grief and revenge always works out well for this and it's probably better to go overboard then to make him seem like he threw a hissy fit over a tiny issue.

Perhaps...He was a half-orc? He faced so much prejudice that it convinced him to give in to his orcish side.



Make sure you have reasons prepared so that the players can't join him in lichdom.



You're going to have to explain this to me. Firstly, how has he not revived already and secondly, how are you introducing him to the party? Avoid exposition dumps whenever possible.



Are you playing an established setting like Greyhawk or Darksun? If not, a Demilich is whatever the hell you say it is. As long as you communicate with your players that you are making your own world with your own rules, go wild. Hells, why would every single ritual to make a lich produce the same type of lich? Shouldn't there be variants or something by now?



1) Have a plan if the sacrifice is stopped. The NPC could be killed, or the players might stop him for whatever reason.

2) If the DM figures it out, pretend that was your plan all along. If he's expecting you to trick him every time, he'll be expecting it. It might take a few tries to trick your players, don't worry.

3) So...What happens if the players want to redeem the NPC Pally-Lich?

First of all, I love the idea of him being a half orc! That adds a lot to his character.

I'm going to encourage the players to be heros. Lichs require sacrifices to maintain their lichdom in 5e correct? It's a soul every month sacrificed to the phylactery? This Paladin will try to ensure that no one can rise to his level of power. He is going to embody LE. He is the law, and he will create peace by destroying any who would disrupt it. He originally started out as a paladin working for an organization I'm calling "The Order". He worked for the divine side of it working next to those of the arcane inclined. I don't have a reason for his fall yet, but one way or another, he was defeated or brought low and his worldview changed. He eventually ascended to the top of the order as it's leader. The Order works to keep the peace as a police force. He intended to change it from a police force in to a militant organization to rule the world and ensure everlasting peace through force. He's a Might makes Right type of guy. I'm going to say he obtained lichdom, but then was defeated by his lieutenants. Because of who he was, or used to be (one way or another, I have to think of a reason why) his ring (the phylactery) wasn't destroyed. It was sealed with him in his demilich state somewhere "safe". Eventually, I'm going to move the players from the plane they're starting on to a bigger and more dangerous plane where the bulk of the game will take place. I intend for them to take his skull with them, or an NPC carrying his skull will go with them. Then, either for the sake of story, of if I screw up and it looks like a TPK might happen, some how a sacrifice will be made to his phylactery and he'll be brought back to full power. I'll probably have him be a level 20 paladin of conquest. He'll destroy the threat, then probably promptly leave, showing up later as an antagonist. That's the plan anyways.

If they try to change him, well....I've got until this summer to flesh out his character. I know of at least one of my players that might try to appeal to his good nature. I'll play that as it goes. Probably see if their arguments are compelling and ask for them to roll to convince him. Goodness knows it won't happen immediately, but depending on how it plays out, he might end up destroying himself to fight an even stronger opponent. I dunno. I want this to be a wide vast world with many many different characters and people of varying race, class, and power level.

As for how he'll be introduced....They'll be starting on a relatively safe plane where all the big threats are handled by the Verdant Guard (all the divine classes) and the Arcane Order (everyone else). The Guard are very prominent here, and over shadow the Order in terms of importance and political power. The thing is, the Order is a much older organization, and they're just letting the guard think they're more important to have them maintain the peace. The Verdant Guard are only found on this starting plane, but members of the Order are on nearly every plane. Depending on how deeply the PCs delve in to the two groups histories, they may figure this out. When they're leaving the plane, depending on what's happening (I might force them off the plane when they're a high enough level because some apocalyptic event) either they'll be handed the skull and just be told that it's "very important don't lose it" or see if I can get them to leave peacefully for a quest. Later on, they'll find out the plane was ravaged and a member of the order will find them. They'll have it on them. I intend to give them as little background info on it as possible. Of course they can roll checks, but the skull itself doesn't have much history, so we'll see.

There. On page 48 of the monster manual, is the dimilich. He'll look like that, except one of the emeralds will actually be glass containing a ring, his phylactery.

[Trey Bright]

Sure, a Paladin can become a Lich. Strictly speaking, long as the person in question learns the dark rituals needed to become a Lich, then it doesn't matter which class they are.

The only problem is that a Paladin couldn't cast the spell needed to capture the souls the Lich has to eat (Paladin would need a magic item to be able to cast that spell). Which might explain why your guy became a Demilich (either they were never able to feed, or they had the item to do so but it was stolen) .

Now, the thing is, it's significantly easier (and less costly) for a Paladin to become a Death Knight, so most evil Paladins wouldn't bother.

Aside from that, there is four points I need to tell you about, because otherwise you'll face big troubles if you try what you're planning.

1)Resurrection spells don't require a sacrifice in 5e. If a NPC has to kill themselves to revive the "hero from the past", pretty much everyone present will see it's fishy immediately.

2) If you describe a skull with gemstones in the eyes, there is 99.9% chances that your veteran player immediately deduce the skull is a Demilich. It's way too iconic an appearance to not be noticed.

You'd need something less common, like for exemple an arm holding the Paladin's sword, all enveloped in a golden funerary shroud or the like. Or if you want to still make it a skull, maybe have it be a skull with a crown/military helmet, without jewels in the eyes.

3) Some Lich can get away with carrying their Phylactery on themselves, but most are wise enough to do the smart thing and keep them hidden far away to avoid having their Phylactery destroyed anytime they're defeated.

4)Even if weakened by the loss of its spells and body, a Demilich is STILL an incredibly smart, wise and charismatic opponent. Don't be afraid to have them be as smart as their statblock implies.


In any case, it's a pretty nice idea you have here. Make sure to give your BBEG a ring or something that makes him appear as a living person, and you're set.

Just be very prudent to not fall into the pitfalls of "gotcha! I totally outsmarted you and now you lost" that some DMs who work too much on their scenaristic twists fall into.

Also be aware that players might not enjoy being betrayed if it wasn't forshadowed/brought up properly

Would it be possible to have the phylactery, if it's the paladins sword, be enchanted with said soul devouring spell? So if a person is killed with the sword, it feeds the phylactery?

The death of the NPC would be something probably brought up only if they had too do it. It might be one of those lesser of two evil things. I honestly don't want to force this to happen, but at the same time, I'm planning it as an event that could happen and that I would like to happen.

Hmm. I'm trying to find a way for the demilich and the phylactery to be in the same place without it being super obvious what it is. I may fall back to my second plan I had a while ago where there is no demilich, just a "sentient sword" and make it the lich's phylactery. How long is there between a soul being consumed and the lich being fully formed? Or is that something I can just look up on the demilich page in the MM?

Can a Demilich make another phylactery? Could he have multiple? Or would I have to say that he's multiclassed in to some kind of arcane caster?

I don't want to kill my players. I want to present them with a challenge, then reward them when they succeed, or support them if they fail and encourage them to try again. I'm playing with a group of friends here in a world that I'll be creating from scratch...well, mostly from scratch.

[Unoriginal]

Would it be possible to have the phylactery, if it's the paladins sword, be enchanted with said soul devouring spell? So if a person is killed with the sword, it feeds the phylactery? .

Not quite, you can't enchant a phylactery to be another kind of magic item. But you could have the Phylactery be the gem in the sword's pommel, and have the blade be enchanted to drink souls. Or the reverse: have the sword be the phylactery, and have a gem cast the spell to absorb the soul.

The death of the NPC would be something probably brought up only if they had too do it. It might be one of those lesser of two evil things. I honestly don't want to force this to happen, but at the same time, I'm planning it as an event that could happen and that I would like to happen.

Either way, no one is going to trust the guy who needed an human sacrifice to come back to life. Unless you want to prsent it like "NPC accomplished a miracle".

Hmm. I'm trying to find a way for the demilich and the phylactery to be in the same place without it being super obvious what it is. I may fall back to my second plan I had a while ago where there is no demilich, just a "sentient sword" and make it the lich's phylactery.

Well you could make it a hand holding the phylactery. Would look like a religious relic, too.

How long is there between a soul being consumed and the lich being fully formed? Or is that something I can just look up on the demilich page in the MM?

Well, you decide. Could be instantaneous, if you want to.

Can a Demilich make another phylactery? Could he have multiple?

A Demilich couldn't, but a Lich could enchant another phylactery if their first one is destroyed, yes. Having multiple is normally impossible.

[Trey Bright]

Not quite, you can't enchant a phylactery to be another kind of magic item. But you could have the Phylactery be the gem in the sword's pommel, and have the blade be enchanted to drink souls. Or the reverse: have the sword be the phylactery, and have a gem cast the spell to absorb the soul.



Either way, no one is going to trust the guy who needed an human sacrifice to come back to life. Unless you want to prsent it like "NPC accomplished a miracle".



Well you could make it a hand holding the phylactery. Would look like a religious relic, too.



Well, you decide. Could be instantaneous, if you want to.



A Demilich couldn't, but a Lich could enchant another phylactery if their first one is destroyed, yes. Having multiple is normally impossible.

Okay, thanks so much! You brought up the Death Knight earlier...I looked it up and I'm not sure. It seems like it's really close to what I want, but at the same time, I'm looking for a way to make this individual reliant on a choice to be able to come back. Make it kinda a story moment, ya know? Possibly unleash this powerful force of Law to stem the tide of chaos while knowing this force of Law isn't a good force. I think it could be really interesting. Is there any way I could mix Lich and Death Knight? I'm thinking actually that I like the idea of there being something off or strange about the decision like he can't be resurrected because he's been "dead" for longer then 100 years. Also, Knowing that someone has to die to bring him back would definitely put some of them on edge and create tension. I like this idea a lot. Make it an element of the story? What do you think?

Also his helmet could be the last remnant of this "once great hero" who the players have seen paintings of and stuff, and the helmet could be sealed with the demilich inside with the phylactery being a gem implanted in to it. The lich could have to go and find his sword later and move the gem from his helmet to his sword to make it so he can feed his phylactery. The idea is when he was vanquished, he was was kept as a demilich with his phylactery in one place so he's vulnerable to destruction if he every acts out, but at the same time, is a resource that the Order can use if it becomes necessary, asking him for information or knowledge and the like. His sword could've survived as well and is enchanted with the soul devouring enchantment. Maybe he has to go and find? Or maybe the players find it and think it's only a sentient sword? Is there a way to tell the difference between sentient objects and phylacteries?