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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Identifying a spell being cast as a reaction means Counterspell has to always be blind. Which is problematic for a countless amount of reasons, the least innocuous being that it removes your ability to make an informed decision about what to counter and the most ridiculous being every spell now has to be cast in secret just in case some NPC somewhere on the table has a counterspell.

    What the hell were they thinking?

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Identifying a spell being cast as a reaction means Counterspell has to always be blind. Which is problematic for a countless amount of reasons, the least innocuous being that it removes your ability to make an informed decision about what to counter and the most ridiculous being every spell now has to be cast in secret just in case some NPC somewhere on the table has a counterspell.

    What the hell were they thinking?
    This.

    https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...64803312640000

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Identifying a spell being cast as a reaction means Counterspell has to always be blind. Which is problematic for a countless amount of reasons, the least innocuous being that it removes your ability to make an informed decision about what to counter and the most ridiculous being every spell now has to be cast in secret just in case some NPC somewhere on the table has a counterspell.

    What the hell were they thinking?
    I'm more concerned about the implications for DMs. In the past, though it wasn't technically correct, I've seen counterspell play out this way:

    DM: creature casts this spell
    Player: I counterspell it

    Then the two would figure out what level counterspell it would take. Otherwise the player just had to guess, which is no good. Again, I know this was not technically correct, but I think it was common.

    Now, it seems you'll need a spotter. But it also seems that the order now must be;

    DM: you see creature begin casting a spell
    Player 1: I roll arcana to see what it is
    Etc.

    That's going to slow things down.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerdodger557 View Post
    But it doesn't even work. I read it. I even took my long-retired twitter account out for a spin to respond to it. That's how bad it is.

    All this does is slow combat down even more because now every spell has to be cast in secret, and if you want to ensure honesty that means writing every spell down before you cast it, just in case something counters it.

    Bonkers. The old way of handling spells being countered was actually faster.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-11-10 at 11:23 AM.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Identifying a spell being cast as a reaction means Counterspell has to always be blind. Which is problematic for a countless amount of reasons, the least innocuous being that it removes your ability to make an informed decision about what to counter and the most ridiculous being every spell now has to be cast in secret just in case some NPC somewhere on the table has a counterspell.

    What the hell were they thinking?
    they were thinking that, regardless of what people seemed to believe, there was no way under the 5e ruleset to identify a spell being cast, and as such EVERY Counterspell was done blind.
    Nothing has changed, except now there is a way to identify it.
    If you quote me and ask me questions,
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Easy enough to ignore. In my games, counterspell works great when the player knows the spell being cast, just like I as the DM know what spell is being cast. I don't want combat "devolving" into asymmetric information games.

    Player: I cast a spell.
    DM: Uh, what spell?
    Player: Not telling.
    DM: Um, okay, the archmage counterspells...
    Player: Haha I was totally casting fire bolt!

    No thanks.

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    Easy_Lee's Avatar

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    All this does is slow combat down even more because now every spell has to be cast in secret, and if you want to ensure honesty that means writing every spell down before you cast it, just in case something counters it.
    It's a little worse, I think. To give players the opportunity to react to a spell in the correct order, the DM must first say, "you see / hear creature casting a spell." Else, the order gets screwy. A spell goes off, the players ask what happened, the DM says that this creature cast a spell, then the players ask for a chance to identify and counter it, throwing retroactive dice.

    That means the DM has to announce the casting, pause, then say what happens - like playing against a blue deck in MTG. That's a little slower than I'd like.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2017-11-10 at 11:26 AM.

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    Imp

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    What do you mean by "casting spell in secrets"?

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    But it doesn't even work. I read it. I even took my long-retired twitter account out for a spin to respond to it. That's how bad it is.

    All this does is slow combat down even more because now every spell has to be cast in secret, and if you want to ensure honesty that means writing every spell down before you cast it, just in case something counters it.

    Bonkers. The old way of handling spells being countered was actually faster.
    Actually, its quite simple. You either try to identify the spell, or you can try to counter it. Who says you have to cast in secret? if you are that worried play a sorcerer and spam subtle spell.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Couldn't you use your action to identify the spell and your reaction to counterspell it?

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Couldn't you use your action to identify the spell and your reaction to counterspell it?
    How are you going to use an action to identify a spell being cast on someone else's turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerdodger557 View Post
    Actually, its quite simple. You either try to identify the spell, or you can try to counter it. Who says you have to cast in secret? if you are that worried play a sorcerer and spam subtle spell.
    Because as a player you don't want to give your DM knowledge of what spell you're casting, in case something is going to counter it.

    It's an asymmetrical advantage. So now you have to write down what spell you're casting in secret, every time, even if you haven't seen anything cast a spell so far in this combat because there could be one hiding out there.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-11-10 at 11:33 AM.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Couldn't you use your action to identify the spell and your reaction to counterspell it?
    Your action occurs on your turn. The spell your opponent is casting happens on its turn. You could Ready your action to identify the spell, I suppose, but Ready eats your reaction. So no.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Player is Casting a Spell

    DM is ready to CS

    Player knows so doesn't want to tell DM what the spell is

    Player says he is casting a Spell

    DM says what is it?

    Player is like nah, are you going to CS it?

    SPLIT
    DM is like No, Player is like then I casts NUKE SPELL OF AWESOME
    DM is like Yes, Player is like, Oh, in that case I'ma cast a Cantrip... kay?

    So now the only legit way to do is to like write it down on a piece of paper what spell you're going to cast...


    Part 2

    Monster is casting a Spell, who knows what it is?

    Player A without Counter Spell uses his reaction to do the Arcana Check
    Fails
    Player B without Counter Spell uses his reaction to do the Arcana Check
    Succeeds
    Player B tells Player C that the spell is DEATH BALL! COUNTER SPELL IT!

    but then the DM is like, nah this ain't cool... Yall do your Arcana Checks and Decide to Counter Spell BEFORE I tell you the result of your Arcana check

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    Player is Casting a Spell

    DM is ready to CS

    Player knows so doesn't want to tell DM what the spell is

    Player says he is casting a Spell

    DM says what is it?

    Player is like nah, are you going to CS it?

    SPLIT
    DM is like No, Player is like then I casts NUKE SPELL OF AWESOME
    DM is like Yes, Player is like, Oh, in that case I'ma cast a Cantrip... kay?

    So now the only legit way to do is to like write it down on a piece of paper what spell you're going to cast...
    I feel like I need to reiterate that they thought this process would actually be faster.

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    Easy_Lee's Avatar

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Because as a player you don't want to give your DM knowledge of what spell you're casting, in case something is going to counter it.

    It's an asymmetrical advantage. So now you have to write down what spell you're casting in secret, every time, even if you haven't seen anything cast a spell so far in this combat because there could be one hiding out there.
    Ah, this will be the case if you play with a hostile DM who likes to metagame. It's far more common for DMs to metagame than I think most people realize.

    Yes, in that instance you'd want to write it down when you decide to cast it, then announce that you're casting a spell and let the DM figure out what he wants to do.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Ah, this will be the case if you play with a hostile DM who likes to metagame. It's far more common for DMs to metagame than I think most people realize.

    Yes, in that instance you'd want to write it down when you decide to cast it, then announce that you're casting a spell and let the DM figure out what he wants to do.
    You'll have to do it no matter what. Because you'll never know, for sure, that your DM isn't pulling stuff like this. Because it's always going to be in the back of your mind no matter how much you trust your DM. And that sort of atmosphere is toxic to a game like this.

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    Easy_Lee's Avatar

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    You'll have to do it no matter what. Because you'll never know, for sure, that your DM isn't pulling stuff like this. Because it's always going to be in the back of your mind no matter how much you trust your DM. And that sort of atmosphere is toxic to a game like this.
    Fair enough. I have an idea, though, taking a page out of card game strategies. If you use spell cards - and I recommend them - then you can place the card facedown and say you're casting a spell, then wait for the DM to say okay, then flip the card over.

    That shouldn't be too much slower. It will take up a lot less time than people who roll attacks and damage separately, I'll tell you that.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    That may work in person but in an online game where most of the time all we do is click a macro to cast a spell, this is especially disruptive.

    I don't even know how to realistically facilitate this online.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-11-10 at 11:42 AM.

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    Imp

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Because as a player you don't want to give your DM knowledge of what spell you're casting, in case something is going to counter it.
    If you're a player, you *have* to give your DM knowledge of what spell you're casting. Or else you're not casting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    It's an asymmetrical advantage. So now you have to write down what spell you're casting in secret, every time, even if you haven't seen anything cast a spell so far in this combat because there could be one hiding out there.
    Or you could trust your DM to not play enemy spellcasters as omniscient magic-duelists, since the enemy spellcasters ALSO have to obey the new Identification rules if the DM decides to implement them.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post

    Because as a player you don't want to give your DM knowledge of what spell you're casting, in case something is going to counter it.

    It's an asymmetrical advantage. So now you have to write down what spell you're casting in secret, every time, even if you haven't seen anything cast a spell so far in this combat because there could be one hiding out there.
    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    You'll have to do it no matter what. Because you'll never know, for sure, that your DM isn't pulling stuff like this. Because it's always going to be in the back of your mind no matter how much you trust your DM. And that sort of atmosphere is toxic to a game like this.
    This is the kind of mindset I see when I read stories about DMs that went into a Me vs. Them scenario with the party.

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Has anyone considered that two or more characters can now work together to identify a spell?

    Ranger/Ranged Fighter uses reaction to identify the spell. They don't get an OA anymore, but who cares? They're ranged combatants anyway.

    They shout the spell to the Wizard, who now knows 100% what the spell is and what level to counter at.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    If you're a player, you *have* to give your DM knowledge of what spell you're casting. Or else you're not casting it.
    Then the rule doesn't work. Or the DM can't use counter spells. Your choice.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    It's a little worse, I think. To give players the opportunity to react to a spell in the correct order, the DM must first say, "you see / hear creature casting a spell." Else, the order gets screwy. A spell goes off, the players ask what happened, the DM says that this creature cast a spell, then the players ask for a chance to identify and counter it, throwing retroactive dice.

    That means the DM has to announce the casting, pause, then say what happens - like playing against a blue deck in MTG. That's a little slower than I'd like.
    Plus it goes both ways. Logically I as a caster now need to likewise give that moment of reaction/decision to the DM every time my characters so much as cast a cantrip in an encounter and wait to see if one of the archmage's mooks can play spotter to the archmage (who really shouldn't need the help from some character on the sidelines commenting like he's in some shonen anime).

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    That may work in person but in an online game where most of the time all we do is click a macro to cast a spell, this is especially disruptive.
    I'm not familiar enough with online 5e games to comment - eye contact and reading the other players is crucial to my play style and enjoyment. But there may be a technical solution possible - such as adding an "announce spell" step to the platform in question.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2017-11-10 at 11:43 AM.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Has anyone considered that two or more characters can now work together to identify a spell?

    Ranger/Ranged Fighter uses reaction to identify the spell. They don't get an OA anymore, but who cares? They're ranged combatants anyway.

    They shout the spell to the Wizard, who now knows 100% what the spell is and what level to counter at.
    I mean it's still asymmetrical in that place because PC reactions are way more valuable than NPC ones, especially because in 5e there are often more NPCs than PCs.

    Also it's just a lot of work for a feature that should be automatic. And it doesn't address the slowdown issue of identifying spells at all.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Then the rule doesn't work. Or the DM can't use counter spells. Your choice.
    There is a difference between your DM knowing what spell you're casting, and potential enemies knowing what spell you are casting.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonBH View Post
    Has anyone considered that two or more characters can now work together to identify a spell?

    Ranger/Ranged Fighter uses reaction to identify the spell. They don't get an OA anymore, but who cares? They're ranged combatants anyway.

    They shout the spell to the Wizard, who now knows 100% what the spell is and what level to counter at.
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    Part 2

    Monster is casting a Spell, who knows what it is?

    Player A without Counter Spell uses his reaction to do the Arcana Check
    Fails
    Player B without Counter Spell uses his reaction to do the Arcana Check
    Succeeds
    Player B tells Player C that the spell is DEATH BALL! COUNTER SPELL IT!

    but then the DM is like, nah this ain't cool... Yall do your Arcana Checks and Decide to Counter Spell BEFORE I tell you the result of your Arcana check
    It isn't great

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    Player is Casting a Spell

    DM is ready to CS

    Player knows so doesn't want to tell DM what the spell is

    Player says he is casting a Spell

    DM says what is it?

    Player is like nah, are you going to CS it?

    SPLIT
    DM is like No, Player is like then I casts NUKE SPELL OF AWESOME
    DM is like Yes, Player is like, Oh, in that case I'ma cast a Cantrip... kay?

    So now the only legit way to do is to like write it down on a piece of paper what spell you're going to cast...


    Edit - Part 2

    Monster is casting a Spell, who knows what it is?

    Player A without Counter Spell uses his reaction to do the Arcana Check
    Fails
    Player B without Counter Spell uses his reaction to do the Arcana Check
    Succeeds
    Player B tells Player C that the spell is DEATH BALL! COUNTER SPELL IT!

    but then the DM is like, nah this ain't cool... Yall do your Arcana Checks and Decide to Counter Spell BEFORE I tell you the result of your Arcana check
    ... when I DM, the player better darn well tell me what spell he's going to cast. If he/she doesn't trust me not to metagame*, there's some SERIOUS issues.

    Lets not forget that, the only reason not every spell ever gets counterspelled, is because the DM decides the enemy doesn't have "can counter spell any spell as free action" - which is entirely in the power of a DM who wants to screw over their players.



    * to metagame to screw them over as part of a power trip. I've metagamed on many occasions as DM -- usually in the to give the player who had a rough day, get a bit of extra spotlight, etc ... As I see my job as giveing the players a fun time, their fun is a a factor I consider, dispite it being metagaming.
    Yes, tabaxi grappler. It's a thing

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    If you're in a battle, you'd generally not want an enemy spell caster to successfully cast ANY spell. This is all happening in seconds if the enemy is casting a combat spell so there's no luxury to sit around and analyze if you want to stop it.

    Preparing a combat spell means casting most of it up to the last triggering part, so it goes pretty fast unless you're like the Flash and witnessing the casting in extreme slow motion.

    There are also non-combat uses for the reaction IDing, say if someone is performing something but it's not for attacking the PCs or self-buffing.

    Catch someone fooling a sucker with an illusion spell, self-buffing with Glibness before making a public speech, etc.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: The new spell identification rules are terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    ... when I DM, the player better darn well tell me what spell he's going to cast. If he/she doesn't trust me not to metagame*, there's some SERIOUS issues.

    Lets not forget that, the only reason not every spell ever gets counterspelled, is because the DM decides the enemy doesn't have "can counter spell any spell as free action" - which is entirely in the power of a DM who wants to screw over their players.



    * to metagame to screw them over as part of a power trip. I've metagamed on many occasions as DM -- usually in the to give the player who had a rough day, get a bit of extra spotlight, etc ... As I see my job as giveing the players a fun time, their fun is a a factor I consider, dispite it being metagaming.
    Stop going against the basic new rules, brah

    You're our DM, but we are still playing a game together, brah

    New rules say you have to say you're counter spelling before I tell you what my spell is, brah

    Oh, and if you decide that every enemy has infinite counter spells as free reaction actions, then I decide not to come to your terrible games anymore, brah

    and I'm taking the other brah's with me, since you're a bad DM, brah

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