Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

[Kryx]

Version 5.0.0
November 18-19, 2018

Major

• Rogue
  
  • Split between Infiltrator and Spell Thief archetypes. Spell Thief gets spells, the ability to steal spells cast on them, and ambush creatures with magic while losing out on one skill, 2/4 of the expertise, and reliable talent.
  • Cryptic has been removed as mana attacks on a Rogue would be too powerful, it's 18th level feature exists on the Spell Thief, and its two other features aren't differentiating enough.
• Astral theme removed, closing #204: Should Astral be renamed?:
  
  • Ectoplasmic Goo (cantrip) moved to the Plants theme and renamed Thorn Bola. Its distance has been increased and damage has been reduced
  • Ectoplasmic Trinket (cantrip) moved from Astral to Creation and renamed to Trinket
  • Ectoplasmic Grapnel (1 mana) moved from Astral to Creation and has had its wording cleaned up.
  • Ectoplasmic Sheen (1 mana) removed as Grease already exists in Creation
  • Engulfing Ectoplasm (1 mana) removed as Entangle exists in the Plants theme
  • Concealing Amorpha (2 mana) moved from Astral to the Creation theme
  • Ectoplasmic Form (2 mana) moved to the Alteration theme and renamed Amorphous Form. Mana is reduced from 2 mana to 1 mana and any reference to flying has been removed.
  • Wall of Ectoplasm (2 mana) removed
  • Ectoplasmic Cocoon (3 mana) moved to the Beast theme and renamed Cocoon. It is a copy of Hold Creature with some thematics added.
  • Ectoplasmic Creation (3 mana) removed as Creation exists in the Creation theme
  • Ectoplasmic Dome (3 mana) removed as Shelter (2 mana) exists in the Creation theme and Tiny Hut (3 mana) exists in the Force theme.
  • Ectoplasmic Shambler (4 mana) removed as Gusting Sphere and Watery Sphere are equivalent options in those themes
  • Astral Projection (5 mana) removed as it already exists in the Planes theme
  • Astral Seed (6 mana) moved to the Spirit theme

Minor

• Dervish added as a Fighter subclass
• Telekinesis: Minor Telekinesis absorbs the Legerdemain options from the Arcane Trickster.
• Changelog added #200: Add a changelog to the site
• Added an overview of changed to the start page #201: Add an intro with highlighted changes and reasons to the start page
• Added spells that have changed from RAW to the bottom of Themes #203: Move theme list below theme links
• Added Errata from November 2018
• Reave Barrier removed as its niche is already covered by Dispel Magic #205: Reave Barrier is very niche. Too niche probably

Patch

• Monk: Quivering Palm does not cost ki. It does equivalent damage to a 4 mana spell now. #197: Quivering Palm Ki Limit Question
• Air theme:
  
  • Fly merged in to Levitate #198: Possibly merge Levitate and Fly
  • Whirlwind disperses vapors, gasses, and fogs #199: Potentially add fog dispersion to Whirlwind
  • Gusting Sphere moved from 3 mana to 2 mana to restrain 2 creatures. It scales to restrain 4 or 1 Large at 3 mana (same power as before)
  • Wind Walk moved from 3 mana to 2 mana. It adds two creatures per mana now.
  • Levitate now specifies that the creature falls safely for 1 minute after the spell ends (same wording as Wind Walk)
• Water theme:
  
  • Control Water moved from 3 mana to 2 as it was a 4th level spell to start with
  • Watery Sphere moved from 3 mana to 2 mana to restrain 2 creatures. It scales to restrain 4 or 1 Large at 3 mana (same power as before)

[Ugganaut]

This is exactly what you're looking for - a Spellless Ranger.

A different Fighter subclass could exist, but not a "Scout" which lives on the fringes of battles.

Naturalist: "Naturalists revere nature above all". A Ranger without spells could still fit that description.
Natural Explorer: "You are a master of navigating the natural world, and you react with swift and decisive action when attacked." This suits a Naturalist, but it could fit other character types too. As far as I know, the explorer benefits of this feature aren't found anywhere else, and I think they should. If you want to play an expert tracker that leads the party in wilderness travel, you're Naturalist or subpar. Favoured Enemy perk is also Naturalist only, but would suit a Fighter/Monster Hunter type.
What I'm looking for is the Natural Explorer feature in a purely martial class, that doesn't have to revere nature at all. They excel in nature, but it's not the focus of their life/class.

=================

Hopefully the Dervish matches what your specific player is looking for. Please provide any feedback you have for the subclass!

I hope so too. Even if he reflavours it(he's not from a nomadic culture, gypsy etc) and just uses the mechanics. Finding it hard to keep up with the changes, when I still haven't read everything, but I'll do what I can when I can :)

[Kryx]

Naturalists have mana built in to their core, but you could reflavor mana to stamina and you effectively have a spellless Naturalist. A Beastmaster/Ranger/Warden can focus on "spells" that are not spells, but effects of nature (using Plant/Beast based spells). Ranger/Warden can focus their stamina on Natural Strike for plant based effects.

A 0 spells Naturalist isn't something that can really work within the 5e design paradigm without massively changing the Naturalist's identity. Wild Shape is currently their core identity.

Every version I've ever seen of a spellless Ranger is really just reflavorings of spells or a Fighter wrapped in a Ranger's features. Sure, I could also make a 0 spells Paladin that loves gods, but doesn't get any of their gifts or a 0 spells Mage who loves magic, but can't cast spells. But no one asks for that. They ask for Strider which is entirely possible with the Scout Rogue.
The RAW Ranger suffers from an identity crisis. I do not wish to pollute my classes with blurred identities.

[Ugganaut]

Dervish first impressions.

Slashing Blades: So does it cost you 1 Stamina for the option to attack during the Dash, and an additional Stamina to actually make the attack? Can you make additional attacks after the first for 1 Stamina each?

Dervish Dance: +2 AC makes up for not wearing the heavier armor, and paired with Dual Wielder perk and Defense stance(don't need Two-Weapon stance with dual shortswords after they are drawn), you can still get AC 21 with Hide + Dex 18, so that's nice. +10spd and acrobatics is nice.

Fancy Footwork: Like it.

Elusive: A little less compared to Elegant Courtier(the other feature granting save prof), but still good.

Measure Once, Cut Twice: Does bring the damage of OA's a bit above their great weapon counterparts which is a benefit. The only problem I see is how often it will come up. In our games, once you close in melee, they rarely move away to provoke the OA. They usually move around you, not away from you. In my experience anyway.

Fluid Footwork: I like that it builds on Fancy Footwork, although you probably won't be provoking OA's because of Fancy Footwork.

Blademaster: Doesn't look like much, but you are turning a miss into an almost guaranteed hit unless you roll horrifically once per short rest. I like it.

[Kryx]

Slashing Blades: So does it cost you 1 Stamina for the option to attack during the Dash, and an additional Stamina to actually make the attack? Can you make additional attacks after the first for 1 Stamina each?

Slashing Blades is 1 stamina + 1 stamina for each attack. So 2 stamina for 1 attack, 3 stamina for 2 attacks, 4 stamina for 3 attacks, etc.

Defense stance(don't need Two-Weapon stance with dual shortswords after they are drawn)

Dual Shortswords will result in less damage than Dual Longswords, but it is is a viable option that will result in more AC.

Measure Once, Cut Twice: Does bring the damage of OA's a bit above their great weapon counterparts which is a benefit. The only problem I see is how often it will come up. In our games, once you close in melee, they rarely move away to provoke the OA. They usually move around you, not away from you. In my experience anyway.

It will be a benefit that doesn't always occur, correct. One can't load a subclass full of damage boosting features without it being overpowered. ;)

[Ugganaut]

Every version I've ever seen of a spellless Ranger is really just reflavorings of spells or a Fighter wrapped in a Ranger's features. Sure, I could also make a 0 spells Paladin that loves gods, but doesn't get any of their gifts or a 0 spells Mage who loves magic, but can't cast spells. But no one asks for that. They ask for Strider which is entirely possible with the Scout Rogue.
The RAW Ranger suffers from an identity crisis. I do not wish to pollute my classes with blurred identities.

I agree that the Ranger without spells is not a good idea, it messes with the identity of the Ranger.
A 0 spells Paladin that loves gods is a Fighter :P
Unlike "gods" or "magic", nature includes the world that people physically interact with, walk on, eat from etc. My issue is Natural Explorer only showing up in the Naturalist class. It's not even in the Scout Rogue. The only other time I've seen even a part of it, is in the Totem Barbarian, level 6 Aspect of the Wolf - and that's just for tracking/stealth, not leading your group.

[Ugganaut]

Slashing Blades is 1 stamina + 1 stamina for each attack. So 2 stamina for 1 attack, 3 stamina for 2 attacks, 4 stamina for 3 attacks, etc.

Groovy.

It will be a benefit that doesn't always occur, correct. One can't load a subclass full of damage boosting features without it being overpowered. ;)

Hold the Line: Will probably come up at least once per fight, until they see they'll get punished if they move from their spot. Also stops their movement.
Tireless Spirit: This will almost definitely trigger in a combat heavy game. You're rewarded for using these up asap.
Inspiring Surge: Almost guaranteed to go off once per short rest, and increases at level 18.

In our Mirabar campaign(9th level, the main one we are playing), I think I've made two OA's the whole campaign, when they got scared and tried to run(so the fight was basically over anyway). Not looking for overpowered, just something that should trigger at least once per short rest, and preferably impactful :)

[Kryx]

My issue is Natural Explorer only showing up in the Naturalist class. It's not even in the Scout Rogue.

Let me counter that by saying:

My issue is Surges only showing up in the Sorcerer class. It's not even in the Evocation Wizard.

Natural Explorer is one of the core identities of a Naturalist. It's not some small benefit - it's a huge benefit.
(It will be moved back to 2nd level as part of the next version)

=========

Hold the Line: Will probably come up at least once per fight, until they see they'll get punished if they move from their spot. Also stops their movement.
Tireless Spirit: This will almost definitely trigger in a combat heavy game. You're rewarded for using these up asap.
Inspiring Surge: Almost guaranteed to go off once per short rest, and increases at level 18.

...
Not looking for overpowered, just something that should trigger at least once per short rest, and preferably impactful :)

Sandstorm replaces Measure Once, Cut Twice.

[Ugganaut]

Let me counter that by saying:

True, I have issue with features being locked in classes when it makes sense for other classes as well. I thought that was why you originally made Metamagic a feat.

Natural Explorer is one of the core identities of a Naturalist. It's not some small benefit - it's a huge benefit.
(It will be moved back to 2nd level as part of the next version)

And I'm not saying NE doesn't belong in Naturalist. I just don't think the benefits in NE should be exclusive. Maybe that feature as it is should be Naturalist only.

Do you think there is any way a non-Naturalist could get enough training to be as good a guide or tracker as a Naturalist?
Is there any reason "Non-magical difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel." belongs only in Naturalist?

Maybe an archetype is the wrong approach for what I'm talking about, maybe perks would be better?

Perk 1 (guide, explorer)
* Non-magical difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel.
* Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger. (or just Navigating)
* If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.

Perk 2 (tracker)
* Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger. (or just Tracking)
* If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
* While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.

So to be a great wilderness tracker you could take the Tracker perk, and the Competency perk in Nature skill. Naturalist are naturally good at this(Natural Explorer), and get some of it for as part of their class.
It can be a core feature of a class(NE and Metamagic for example), and still be available to other characters - they just have to "pay" for it with perks, and their might be some things that aren't available to everyone from that group of abilities. Sorcerer might get the metamagic stuff for free, but one of them might be exclusive.

Edit: Cunning Action is a core feature of a Rogue. The individual parts are not necessarily exclusive to a Rogue though. Hide as a bonus action is available to a Naturalist via the Vanish perk. Dash as a bonus action is available to all Monks with Step of the Wind, and as a perk for any 7th level character with Fleet of Foot.

=========

Sandstorm replaces Measure Once, Cut Twice.

That's odd. I reread the flavour, where does the sand fit in? Does it work with dirt, or only in the desert? Guessing it wouldn't work if traveling in a rocky dungeon area.
Is the idea to block LoS to the back line, or run around someone encircling them in heavy obscurement? It also obscures your vision to by the sounds of it.

[Kryx]

True, I have issue with features being locked in classes when it makes sense for other classes as well.

Allowing class defining features outside of a class lessens the identity of that class. You can see this topic come up quite frequently when people create homebrew to extract core class features.

The Evocation Mage and the Sorcerer share 2 common options, but 1 of those options was shared by RAW and the other both have by RAW and it makes sense for them to be the same mechanics. It isn't a 1 for 1 duplication and it is available to a subclass, not as a perk.

And I'm not saying NE doesn't belong in Naturalist. I just don't think the benefits in NE should be exclusive. Maybe that feature as it is should be Naturalist only.

Class identity features will always be exclusive. For example no other class will get access to an Occultist's Witchcraft abilities.

Do you think there is any way a non-Naturalist could get enough training to be as good a guide or tracker as a Naturalist?

A Minstrel/Rogue can get proficiency and advantage on Nature checks which could accomplish quite a lot. Not even the Naturalist gets that.

Is there any reason "Non-magical difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel." belongs only in Naturalist?

There are several instances of nonmagical difficult terrain not slowing an individual. Not slowing a whole group is part of a Naturalist's niche and likely will never exist outside of Natural Explorer.

=========

That's odd. I reread the flavour, where does the sand fit in?

Dervish are creatures of the desert typically. I was looking for a feature that does not directly increase their damage or defense (which they have plenty of). If you have a suggestion for such a feature to replace it feel free to suggest it.

[Marcloure]

Sorcerer
One of my players complained that the Sorcerer feels short on Sorcerous Surges resources. I then have gone to take a look at it, and I found the following:

Spoiler: Quick RAW Comparison

Show

RAW Sorcerer at 5th level has 5 Sorcery Points and 9 spell slots. The Suffused Sorcerer has up to 24 mana and 6 Sorcerous Surge uses, 2 by short rest.
Even if the Sorcerer only casts 2 mana spells, it's still 12 spells for 6 Sorcerous Surges.

At 3rd level the Suffused Sorcerer has 5 mana but a single use of a minor Surges, as it cannot use any Surge that costs 2 or more uses.
It can twin a cantrip once per short rest, change its damage type, or something like that. The effects are ok, but I don't know if doing it once per short rest is.

At 20th level, a Suffused Sorcerer has up to 90 mana, but considering it will cast spells at an average of 4 mana, that goes to 22 spells casted and 20 Surges uses, which is fairly close to RAW Sorcerer.

Overall, I think the total is ok. It even has more uses of Surges at 5th level than RAW Sorcerer. But the limit per short rest is low. It's not a feature so strong that it can only be used once.

Making the uses round up can help without increasing the maximum usages, so that at 3rd level a Sorcerer has 2 Surge uses and can twin a 1st level spell.
___

Alchemist
I was taking a look at the draft for the Alchemist, and I am liking it so far. I guess that with it, the Transmuter Mage will be gone?

Also, I don't know if calling the caster Alchemist a "Bomber" feels right. I mean, they do cast their spells through bombs, but it feels too aggressive. A bomber healer or buffer? That sounds strange haha

I don't have a suggestion for a better name right now, but I'll try to think of one.

[Kryx]

Sorcerer
One of my players complained that the Sorcerer feels short on Sorcerous Surges resources.
...
Making the uses round up can help without increasing the maximum usages, so that at 3rd level a Sorcerer has 2 Surge uses and can twin a 1st level spell.

RAW is Sorcerer level/long rest. My version is half Sorcerer level/short rest. At 20 that means 30 instead of 20 by RAW. But the effects are generally weaker than options like Channel Divinity so it should be fine.

I've changed it to round up.


============

Alchemist
I was taking a look at the draft for the Alchemist, and I am liking it so far. I guess that with it, the Transmuter Mage will be gone?

Also, I don't know if calling the caster Alchemist a "Bomber" feels right. I mean, they do cast their spells through bombs, but it feels too aggressive. A bomber healer or buffer? That sounds strange haha

I don't have a suggestion for a better name right now, but I'll try to think of one.

See the Changelog for the current draft of version 6.0.0 which includes the Alchemist and the removal of School of Transmutation as you say. I put in a lot of work over the last two days to put it together. I think it's nearly done, though I'm looking to add many more alchemical items in equipment.
I really struggled with the "Bomber" name. I'm totally happy to change it if a more suitable name can be found.

Please feel free to provide feedback on the theme, mechanics, features, archetypes, subclasses, alchemical items, etc.

[Wherf]

I really struggled with the "Bomber" name. I'm totally happy to change it if a more suitable name can be found.

Please feel free to provide feedback on the theme, mechanics, features, archetypes, subclasses, alchemical items, etc.

Chemist, Brewer, or Concocter are other names could replace 'Bomber'
-

I think the class could have more of a unique identity to seperate it from typical casters or shapeshifters (Mutagen). In Pathfinder I loved the list of discoveries that made Alchemist varied and speclized. Alchemists tend to have unique bombs in homebrew- maybe that would add something interesting? Alchemists are always a scary class to homebrew because they are (like the Artificer) a crafting class usually. With that comes a lot of rules- but I find that to be more appealing than a reflavor of sorcerer/wizard with bombs.

Though, in this homebrew all classes have their own identity but do share spells, and can have similar abilities (Naturalist & Sorcerer Shapeshifter, etc.). I'm busy until the end of November but I'd love to help brainstorm more ideas for this class once we have a concrete idea of what niche we want them to fill. I linked one of my favorite Alchemist homebrew below. It isn't a class on its own, but it has some really cool ideas with mixing effects.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5t...NzV2hCeDA/view

Oh, and what are 'evocations'? they were added to mage(evocation) and kinestist but I don't understand what they are or how they are used. Evocations are for metamagic yes? Just like surges for Sorcerer? If they are the same just call them surges for each class, it will reduce confusion.

[Kryx]

I think the class could have more of a unique identity to seperate it from typical casters or shapeshifters (Mutagen). In Pathfinder I loved the list of discoveries that made Alchemist varied and speclized. Alchemists tend to have unique bombs in homebrew- maybe that would add something interesting? Alchemists are always a scary class to homebrew because they are (like the Artificer) a crafting class usually. With that comes a lot of rules- but I find that to be more appealing than a reflavor of sorcerer/wizard with bombs.

Identity:
The identity of discovering things is definitely not as much as I'd like. I'll need to add alchemist perks or a system built in to the Alchemist where he selects a list of discoveries as you say.

Niche:
The niche is quite clear imo. We have 3 archetypes: the chemist who creates powerful alchemy and throws bombs, the Mutant who transforms, and the Homunculist who creates a Frankenstein monster. The Alchemist can vary between full caster damage dealer to an upfront damage dealer/tank to a pet based class to a skill based role picking locks.

Spells/bombs:
There are two choices here:

1. Create alchemy versions of all 582 spells in my system, including 68 cantrips. This would entail reducing ranges down to a "throw range" and increasing damages in most cases.
2. Treat Cantrips and Spells as concoctions that can be imbibed or thrown, with all ranges the same as spells (the flavor of them having different distances based on weight of the concotion).

I chose #2 as #1 is an insane amount of work with nearly the exact same outcome.

Mutant:
The Shapechanging archetypes are purposefully similar, though each has their own variation. For example the Mutant gets a number has a bonus to damage, advantage on Reflex saving throws, and advantage on Strength or Dexterity (similar to a Babarian). Perhaps I should allow for it to choose a creature enhancement - that could also apply for the Shapechanger Sorcerer.

Crafting:
D&D already has a crafting system in DMG and expanded in XGtE. It's not great, but I'm also not going to fully replace it. If people want to user alternative crafting systems then they should.

For the purpose of the Alcehmist I'm adding a list of alchemical items with costs associated and those costs are reasonable for an alchemist to spend. Once that is complete if you'd like to port those foraging and crafting rules for the alchemical items list then I'm happy to add them.

==================

Oh, and what are 'evocations'? they were added to mage(evocation) and kinestist but I don't understand what they are or how they are used. Evocations are for metamagic yes? Just like surges for Sorcerer? If they are the same just call them surges for each class, it will reduce confusion.

Evocations are a resource that a Mage/Psionicist has to sculpt spells, deflect attacks, and empower their spells. A Mage or Psionicist does not Surge. It does not have magical energy running through its veins. A Mage or Psionicist can slightly alter spells in 3 specific ways, hence evocations. Metamagic does not exist as that word means far more than what the Evocation Mage can do.

[Marcloure]

Hey, I gotta a question. From where is the Fighter damage supposed to come from?

I mean, it deals roughly the same amount of damage as quickened cantrip, but the Fighter doesn't have spells. Maneuvers do add a bit, but Fighters have fewer stamina than casters have mana.

Barbarians gain extra damage from reckless attack and also, Wild Shape does more damage at earlier levels.

I tried to do a little head comparison between S&B Fighter, GWM Fighter, Wild Shape and a classless full caster at 3rd and 5th level. I assumed everyone has the same to-hit chance.

Spoiler: 3rd level

Show

GWM Barbarian: 2d12kh1 (8.5) + 3 [str] + 4 [Called Shot + Reckless] = 15.5. Rage adds 1.

S&B Fighter: 2d8kh1 (5.8) + 3 [str] = ~9. Action Surge doubles it: ~18.
GWM Fighter: 2d12kh1 (8.5) + 3 [str] = 11.5. Action Surge doubles it: 23.
Maneuvers can potentially add 2 to damage rolls of 3 attacks for both cases above.

Wild Shape: 2d8 (9) + 6 [2*dex/str] = 15. Most wild shapes have something else on attacks.
Also, naturalists have spells and can cast them while transformed.

Full caster: 2d10 (11) = 11. They have 5 mana and spells which can do around 18 damage.

Spoiler: 5th level

Show

GWM Barbarian: 2d12kh1 (8.5) + 2d12kh1 (8.5) + 6 [str] + 6 [Called Shot + Reckless] = 29. Rage adds 4.

S&B Fighter: 2d8kh1 (5.8) + 2d8kh1 (5.8) + 8 [2*str] = ~20. Action Surge doubles it: ~40.
GWM Fighter: 2d12kh1 (8.5) + 2d12kh1 (8.5) + 8 [2*str] = 26. Action Surge doubles it: 52.
Maneuvers can potentially add 3 to damage rolls of 4 attacks for both cases above.

Wild Shape: 2d10 (11) + 8 [2*dex/str] = 19. Most wild shapes have something else on attacks.
Also, naturalists have spells and can cast them while transformed.

Full caster: 4d10 (22) = 22. They have 8 mana and spells which can do around 36 damage.

Looking at that, I don't see how the Fighter competes, the S&B even less. The barbarian is really good, but the Fighter damage is way too low.

A full caster does more damage at will than a S&B Fighter, and Wild Shape at 3rd level does a lot more. At 5th level, S&B Fighter still does less damage than Full caster's quickened cantrip and only a bit more than Wild Shape.

GWM Fighter doesn't come any close to GWM Barbarian.

Action Surge does the same damage as a spell, but can only be used once per short rest. Maneuvers add 2 or 3 damage, but can also be used fewer times than spells and usually has worse effects.

Something is missing on the Fighter to increase its overall damage.

Also, why does Wild Shape hits so much before 5th level? I mean, it doesn't gain Extra Attack then, but it basically has one at 2nd level.

Sorry if I let something out.

[Kryx]

From where is the Fighter damage supposed to come from?

You can see a Fighter's damage calculations on DPR of Homebrew Classes (Fighter). There you will see that a fighter's damage comes from lots of attacks:

• 4 attacks at 20
• Action surge doubles up on attacks 1/short rest (2/short rest at 17)
• Maneuvers
  • Riposte is a reaction attack + proficiency bonus damage
  • Trip Attack knocks a creature prone + proficiency bonus damage. Prone allows you and your allies to attack with advantage. Trip also increases crit chance for things like GWM

Assuming the same hit chance is not a good method to achieve accurate DPR calculations as both the Barbarian and Fighter rely on common sources of advantage for their damage numbers being higher. You also haven't considered resources over a full adventuring day which alters how spells and a Barbarian's Rage is calculated.

Some comparisons from the DPR sheet:
3rd level
Barbarian GWM: 16 DPR
Barbarian S&B: 8 DPR
Fighter GWM: 16 DPR
Fighter S&B: 10 DPR
Magus GWM: 17 DPR
Ranger S&B: 11 DPR
Shapeshifter: 14 DPR
Wild Shape Ranger: 17 DPR
Caster: 9 DPR

5th level
Barbarian GWM: 35 DPR
Barbarian S&B: 19 DPR
Fighter GWM: 34 DPR
Fighter S&B: 22 DPR
Magus GWM: 33 DPR
Ranger S&B: 24 DPR
Shapeshifter: 26 DPR
Wild Shape Ranger: 27 DPR
Caster: 18 DPR

Spoiler: Wild Shape DPR chart

Show

The damage is in line with the Ranger.

My DPR sheet is meant to be the current state of the classes and I use it often to determine the balance of options. If there are any mistakes there please let me know.

S&B, in my system and RAW, is generally held afloat by Shield Master. The Barbarian and Fighter gain almost no benefit from that perk as they commonly have advantage from other sources. If there are options to redefine S&B so that it can do more damage then I'm happy to look in to that.

Wild Shape was hard to balance. The other shapeshifters are mutually exclusive with options such as Hunter's Mark. It's a bit above where I'd like it to be, but overall it's pretty comparable and provides viable wild shaped characters.

I'll add some more comparisons to my DPR sheet.

[igorboschetti]

Hello there! Excellent work with the alchemist, i'm very excited to test it.

Let'me try and help!

Here are some comments:

- Fortitude Saving Thrown vs Alchemist's stone: keeping concentration is most like a wizard stuff... then i think the alchemist should be proficient on Will Saving Thrown, plus, probably the strongest buff on alchemist's stone is the proficiency on Fortitude saving trown, then we have this ability useless as is.

- Homunculist's coordinated attack - This feature says that i must make a attack action, or use a concotion, can we assume that a cantrip is also a concotion? or an attack action?

- New Alchemical discipline:

The Creator

lv 1st
- You learn the creation theme and one cantrip


lv 3
- When you learn the spell "Make Whole", you can use it as a desintegration spell, causing damage to constructs, or objects which aren't being worn or carried.

- Also, when you use the feat "Minor Alchemy", you can change shapes of the materials while you change it's composition.

- Also, the "Minor Alchemy" is cast time is reduced to 1m/foot cubic)

lv 6
- Major Alchemy: you don't need to keep concentration for minor alchemy anymore, also, the changes you make become permanent, even if a object is destroyed.
(a clay statue can be turned into stone, and when destroyed, it stil made of stone, in pieces probably)

- Also, the "Minor Alchemy" is cast time is reduced to an action/cubic foot

lvl 10
- Master Alchemy: When you area using minor alchemy, you can cast the same effect of the spell Enlarge/reduce, on the material/object , without spending mana or knowing the spell, the weight isn't altered, then if you enlarge a sword or other object it became fragile and can be easily destroyed, also a shrinked object become more resistent.

- Also, the "Minor Alchemy" is area effect is augmented to 5foot cubic/action

lvl 14
- Creator: You become able to extract resources from atoms, you become able to create matter, you expend 10 minutes to create 1 cubic foot of material, this dowesn't count as minor alchemy

- Also, "Minor Alchemy" 's area effect is augmented to 15f cubic/action

Hope you all liked it

oh yes! there is one sugestion for the alchemial Bomber's name, what about Alchemical Thrower?

[Garfunion]

I like what I’m seeing in this “alternative 5e” D&D (I would probably call it something else do to all the changes you have made).
I’m still trying to grasp all of what you have created, it almost reminds me of 4e D&D.

You should probably look at the alchemist more as a rogue not a spellcaster. Also, alchemical items should be usable by anyone. Which is why I find, trying to create an alchemist class is weird.

[Kryx]

- Fortitude Saving Thrown vs Alchemist's stone: keeping concentration is most like a wizard stuff... then i think the alchemist should be proficient on Will Saving Thrown, plus, probably the strongest buff on alchemist's stone is the proficiency on Fortitude saving trown, then we have this ability useless as is.

What makes you consider Will when you think of an Alchemist? In both PF1 and PF2 for example the dominant save has been Fortitude. PF2 has reflex as well. As I see it Fortitude > Reflex > Will for the Alchemist.

Fortitude is still useful as it can be given to other players. I could specify if there is already proficiency it grants advantage?

Homunculist's coordinated attack - This feature says that i must make a attack action, or use a concotion, can we assume that a cantrip is also a concotion? or an attack action?

Concotion = spell. So cantrip or concotion using 1 or more mana

- New Alchemical discipline:

I'll check it in detail tomorrow. My first gut reaction is that it's strange to fully focus on a very minor part of the alchemist that will have little impact on play as a subclass (Minor Alchemy).

there is one sugestion for the alchemial Bomber's name, what about Alchemical Thrower?

Chemist is the name for now - it's fitting as the archetype is not just a bomber, but an expert chemist.

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I like what I’m seeing in this “alternative 5e” D&D

Thanks for checking out the project. Please feel free to provide feedback as well to make it better!

You should probably look at the alchemist more as a rogue not a spellcaster. Also, alchemical items should be usable by anyone. Which is why I find, trying to create an alchemist class is weird.

An alchemist is like a rogue - it has 3 skills and those skills allow the alchemist to fill the utility toolbox role that a rogue does. However an Alchemist is definitely a spellcaster - they just mix chemicals instead of waving their hands. There are two options that focus on less spell-like alchemy (Mutant and Homunculist), but the whole concept is based around mixing chemicals to create spell-like effects so I can't see how the class can exist without magic.

All characters will be able to craft and make alchemical items. I've already started porting several of them. Alchemists will be a bit better at it, but also have other aspects that go beyond a few items.

Alchemist is definitely much larger than a background. See PF1 and PF2 how much identity there is in the Alchemist. It has far more identity than the Fighter for example.

[igorboschetti]

Fortitude is still useful as it can be given to other players. I could specify if there is already proficiency it grants advantage?

Nice, i've just forgotten about you being able to give the stone to a friend, giving advantage should also be a good choice in my opinion

I'll check it in detail tomorrow. My first gut reaction is that it's strange to fully focus on a very minor part of the alchemist that will have little impact on play as a subclass (Minor Alchemy).

it basically amplify the uses for minor alchemy... maybe your judgement can improve the idea hehe, but i still think it was a good start.

i was whinking on being able on casting it multilple time for bigger itens, but i just remenbered about the concentration limitation, if you get interested, i can rework this before you decide.


Also, fully agree on expert alchemist name

[Garfunion]

"There will be no foolish wand-waving or silly incantations in this class. As such, I don't expect many of you to appreciate the subtle science of the potion making. However, for those of you who possess the pre-disposition, I can teach you how to bewitch the mind and ensnare the senses; I can tell you how to brew glory ,bottle fame, and even put a stopper in death.”
—Severus Snape

In my mind, if you are going to have a class like this that cast spells, call it an Artificer not an Alchemist. An alchemist combines the raw ingredients around them to create magical effects.

Recipe for Striding and Springing Potion
A pinch of cheetah fur, three hairs from a horse’s mane, pair of grasshopper legs, 3onces of gold infused spring water, and a mint leaf(for color and taste). Hold over flame for five minutes.

I would rename Mana to Alchemical Catalysts. An Alchemist’s catalyst allows them to rapidly create (temporarily) alchemical items. I’d probably used Alchemist’s Stone in the creation of the catalyst, seeing as how the stone is normally used to break the laws of alchemy.

[Marcloure]

In my mind, if you are going to have a class like this that cast spells, call it an Artificer not an Alchemist. An alchemist combines the raw ingredients around them to create magical effects.

Alchemists don't cast spells, they use concoctions.

A concoction (or cantrip) you learn acts as a spell, except it can be imbibed or thrown as a bomb. Examples:

• an alchemist can throw ray of frost as a bomb at a creature at the normal range of 60 feet.
• an alchemist can throw fireball as a bomb at the normal range of 120 feet, where it then explodes in a sphere
• an alchemist can throw haste/slow to slow a creature with additional targets splashed by the liquid
• an alchemist can throw heal at the normal range of 60 feet so that it pours over an ally, mending its wounds
• an alchemist can pour invisibility on an ally, turning the ally invisible
• an alchemist can imbibe primal savagery to claw its foes
• an alchemist can imbibe blur to become blurre

I believe Kryx intents to make the Artificer another class focused on magical technology and craftsmanship.

[Garfunion]

Alchemists don't cast spells, they use concoctions.

Your right. I’m still reading everything. But I’m hoping for more than just an alternative spellcaster.

[Marcloure]

Your right. I’m still reading everything. But I’m hoping for more than just an alternative spellcaster.

I understand your desire.
Would it be cool if the alchemist had its own subsystem for making mixtures and solutions, so that it can build combinations of area, damage, effects and more? Maybe yes. But that would be very close to what spells already are, a huge work for a small gain.
Unless the Alchemist has a very limited list of concoctions.

I would suggest for a moment that the Alchemist could have a Channel Divinity/Witchcraft kind of feature. But I believe the alchemical items they craft already fulfill this niche of a feature with sub-options.

Suggestion: Maybe the alchemist should be able to make stronger versions of alchemical items? I mean, acid and alchemist's fire quickly becomes bad. Maybe their versions add intelligence to damage and increase save DCs?

[Wherf]

I understand your desire.
Would it be cool if the alchemist had its own subsystem for making mixtures and solutions, so that it can build combinations of area, damage, effects and more? Maybe yes. But that would be very close to what spells already are, a huge work for a small gain.
Unless the Alchemist has a very limited list of concoctions.

I would suggest for a moment that the Alchemist could have a Channel Divinity/Witchcraft kind of feature. But I believe the alchemical items they craft already fulfill this niche of a feature with sub-options.

Suggestion: Maybe the alchemist should be able to make stronger versions of alchemical items? I mean, acid and alchemist's fire quickly becomes bad. Maybe their versions add intelligence to damage and increase save DCs?

Alchemical items are always fun, it was a joy creating dusts of dryness in one of my old campaign. Water suddenly appearing everywhere tends to solve a lot of problems, especially with lightning magic. A discovery tree (like in Pathfinder) or unique grenadier ability could be significant as well. In the homebrew I linked before, an alchemist can create gel or fire bombs for damage overtime or acid for burst. Having bombs be their own feature for Grenadier seems promising if a bit teadious to balance. I am a big fan of how Pathfinder does Alchemist.

[Garfunion]

Suggestion: Maybe the alchemist should be able to make stronger versions of alchemical items? I mean, acid and alchemist's fire quickly becomes bad. Maybe their versions add intelligence to damage and increase save DCs?

That is why I suggested the class be more Rogue like or a rogue archetype. The rogue can use a normal crafted alchemy item but add their sneak attack to any damage the item does.

[Marcloure]

S&B, in my system and RAW, is generally held afloat by Shield Master. The Barbarian and Fighter gain almost no benefit from that perk as they commonly have advantage from other sources. If there are options to redefine S&B so that it can do more damage then I'm happy to look in to that.

Would letting the dueling fighting stance work while using shields be too much? I think a +2 to damage is only slightly better than 2d8kh1, that would increase S&B damage by a bit.

I tried to find damage calculations for dueling on the DPR sheet, but I see dueling being mentioned only on the Preface of it and nowhere else.

And what do you mean by "S&B is is generally held afloat by Shield Master"? The Barbarian sure has advantage whenever it wants, but for the Fighter, it needs to forgo one of its attacks to try to prone a target. Also, advantage stacks, so a proned enemy is just in an even worst situation against a Barbarian.

That said, on the Comparison page, S&B does seem to deal far less damage than a Mage.
_____

Changing the topic a bit, now to ranged Rogues.

Ranged Rogues have a very higher chance of gaining advantage from stealth than those in melee, since they don't have to use their bonus action to disengage and have more access to cover.

I looked it up on the DPR sheet, and I think that higher chance of advantage is not taken into consideration (possibly I just couldn't find it). Maybe ranged Rogues should do the standard d6s instead of d8s for sneak attack damage rolls?

[Kryx]

Flavor

Recipe for Striding and Springing Potion
A pinch of cheetah fur, three hairs from a horse’s mane, pair of grasshopper legs, 3onces of gold infused spring water, and a mint leaf(for color and taste). Hold over flame for five minutes.

5 minutes to create a concotion does not work for a game. Hence why the UA Artificer includes an Alchemist's Satchel that allows concotions to be made on the fly. I use the same.

We could make the Alchemist prepare its concoctions from the book like the Mage to add more of the formula feeling. I'm still undecided on what to do there.

I would rename Mana to Alchemical Catalysts. An Alchemist’s catalyst allows them to rapidly create (temporarily) alchemical items.

There are alchemical items (on the bottom of equipment) and there are alchemical concoctions. They are two different things.

Catalyst is a good name to replace mana with though. I'll use that.

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Artificer

I believe Kryx intents to make the Artificer another class focused on magical technology and craftsmanship.

That is indeed the goal. Though I think I'll take a break from large undertakings after the Alchemist as I've burnt myself out a bit recently.

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Alchemical Items

Suggestion: Maybe the alchemist should be able to make stronger versions of alchemical items? I mean, acid and alchemist's fire quickly becomes bad. Maybe their versions add intelligence to damage and increase save DCs?

The items should be useful for everyone. That can possibly be achieved with DCs based on an ability check.

Alchemical items are always fun, it was a joy creating dusts of dryness in one of my old campaign. Water suddenly appearing everywhere tends to solve a lot of problems, especially with lightning magic.

Alchemical items will exist, including dust of dryness.

In the homebrew I linked before, an alchemist can create gel or fire bombs for damage overtime or acid for burst.

The homebrew you linked is just a way to create alchemical items without gold costs. Alchemical items will exist and such a system could be workable.

======================

Discoveries

I would suggest for a moment that the Alchemist could have a Channel Divinity/Witchcraft kind of feature. But I believe the alchemical items they craft already fulfill this niche of a feature with sub-options.

A discovery tree (like in Pathfinder) or unique grenadier ability could be significant as well.

I definitely considered porting "Discoveries" from Pathfinder, but actually looking at that list those discoveries are really more like perks and many of them are really just a way to achieve thematics within the pathfinder system. Themes already open up tons of thematics like cold bombs or mind-effecting bombs so I think the need for a feature like "Discoveries" from Pathfinder is not needed. Some of those discoveries are worth keeping around though and they can live on as perks - similar to Occultist perks like Grasp of Hadar.

======================

Bombs

Having bombs be their own feature for Grenadier seems promising if a bit teadious to balance. I am a big fan of how Pathfinder does Alchemist.

Bombs are already covered in Mixtures (previously cantrips). They do damage and effects and scale with your level. See above about the discoveries.

======================

Rogue

That is why I suggested the class be more Rogue like or a rogue archetype. The rogue can use a normal crafted alchemy item but add their sneak attack to any damage the item does.

An Alchemist is not a Rogue - they are two very different identities. A Rogue can use an alchemical item if they so choose, but compare the two classes and you'll see a significant difference in identity. Compare a Rogue to the Wikipedia of alchemy or to other fantasy games like Pathfinder 1, Pathfinder 2, or even Ziggs from LoL. You'll quickly see that there is a massive wealth of identity for the Alchemist, with almost none of it crossing over with a Rogue type class.

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Changes to the alchemist draft as on https://marklenser.com/5e/changelog

[Kryx]

Topic Changes
Let us please limit the topics of conversation so I don't have to jump around in train of thought too much. Many replies I make have to be well thought through and those type of replies typically take 1-2 hours to write.

I really need to focus those hours on projects like Alchemical Items, the Alchemist, and porting spells currently.

I can quickly address other topics, but deep dives are off the table for a few days. Add them to the issue tracker and I can pick them up at a later point. Short replies below

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S&B
I know S&B is low - I showed that in my DPR above. There is no quick fix and options like Duelist applying to S&B feels like a hacky fix. S&B should have its own identity. It does in the ability to prone someone as a perk, but that is limited by the Barbarian and Fighter having options for advantgae.

Both the Barbarian and Fighter should commonly have advantage. Fighter has it much less than the Barbarian, but even there we see the benefit of Shield Master isn't doing enough. One thing to consider is that the DPR doesn't include increased DPR for allies attacking a prone target.

S&B doing less damage than a Mage makes perfect sense. S&B likely has around 21 AC and lots of health, it's a very defensive build. Mage on the otherhand is more offensive.

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Changing the topic a bit, now to ranged Rogues.

Ranged Rogues have a very higher chance of gaining advantage from stealth than those in melee, since they don't have to use their bonus action to disengage and have more access to cover.

I looked it up on the DPR sheet, and I think that higher chance of advantage is not taken into consideration (possibly I just couldn't find it). Maybe ranged Rogues should do the standard d6s instead of d8s for sneak attack damage rolls?

It is calculated in there. See "Stealth Chance First Hit Melee", "Stealth Chance First Hit Ranged", "Stealth Crit Chance Melee", and "Stealth Crit Chance Ranged" at the top.

d8s are given for rogues not using two melee weapons (rapier). The math seems pretty solid there.

[iridisink]

Would it be possible to have a Barbarian archetype that got a Beastmaster-style animal companion? Perhaps they could both rage, that kind of thing. What are your thoughts on what would need to be stripped out of the Warrior archetype to balance the addition of animal companion?