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  1. - Top - End - #781
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    FYI I'm on vacation next week so I'll be slower to respond and won't be able to change code while I'm gone.

  2. - Top - End - #782
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Acolyte
    Some features state Wisdom modifier instead of spellcasting ability modifier, which excludes the choice of Charisma as your spellcasting ability. Eg. Smite the Faithless.

    Armor of Faith: This is similar to the Monk, and suits Avenger as written, but Cleric and Paladin use shields. This features has a max AC 22, is that intended? If not, maybe “While you are not wearing any armor, your AC equals 13 + your Dexterity modifier or your acolyte spellcasting ability modifier”. Plate is still higher until you can max out either of those stats.

    Knowledge Domain(Knowledge of the Ages): “As an action, you choose one language or skill. For 24 hours, you learn the language or have proficiency with the chosen skill.” Do you gain a proficiency in a new skill with each use on top of previous ones, or if you use this again does it change the proficiency? If you are already proficient, should it grant expertise?

    Knowledge Domain(Divine Insight): This has great benefits, but lasts 8hrs(as Foresight spell) compared to all other domains whose duration is 1 minute. Not sure if it’s an issue, just seemed odd.

    Protection Domain(Sacred Weapon): “As an action, you can imbue one weapon that you are holding with positive energy. For 1 minute, you add your spellcasting ability modifier (minimum of 1) to attack rolls made with that weapon.” Is this on top of the normal ability modifier, or in place of it?

    Read Thoughts(Knowledge domain): Read thoughts RAW grants an initial saving throw(success blocks further attempts), and then Suggestion without a save. It’s replacement, Detect Thoughts, has no initial saving throw on the mindreading, only the probe, and therefore no chance to avoid the Suggestion. Most Channel Divinity effects are worth 2 mana, and this is already 4 mana of spells(plus the no saving throw). It’s not really a niche ability either, it has great use potential, so it seems unbalanced. Possible solution, “You can cast Detect Thoughts, without expending energy. You can augment it further by expending energy.” The flavour is close, with your version of Detect Thoughts having an augment that gives something along those lines. It keeps in more in like with the power of other Channel Divinity options.

    Tempest domain(Thunder Lord): Should the damage from lightning/thunder spells increase by 1d8 vs 1 target for the Cleric, like attacks do for the Paladin and Avenger?

    Trickery domain(Cloak of Shadows): Would it be more consistent as “You can cast Invisibility(Illusion) augmented to Continued Invisibility, without expending energy.”, to bring it up to other 2 mana Channel Divinity options, or is the fact it doesn’t require concentration a big enough benefit?

    Warrior
    Danger Sense: Doesn’t this make you better at Reflex saves than you are with Fortitude at lower levels, if that’s even an issue?

    Does Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades(Skald) stack to basically provide full proficiency to the affected skills?

    Dervish(Battle Dance)
    1. “When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can make one additional attack as part of that action.”
    Was wondering what the mechanical goal with the wording was, as the flavour seems to allow a lot of odd options, like “dancing” with a greatsword or heavy crossbow. I can see this style being used with two weapons, single one-handed weapons, polearms(Oberon Martell from GoT), or even a bow(Legolas from LotR), but weapons like a maul you don’t really “dance” with imo.
    2. “At 11th level, you can make another additional attack as part of the Attack action as long as you don’t use two hands to make an attack with a weapon this turn.”
    I understand locking out d12 weapons, but it also locks out versatile weapons, bows and polearms, is the d10 the balance issue? It still seems to allow two weapon fighting and dueling styles, which pushes the damage up around d10 anyway. Wasn't sure if it mechanics or flavour was the issue.
    3. Should the AC bonuses stack from Dueling Master(also requires Shield perk) or Dual Wielder perk? Those feats assume a style where you already can’t use a shield, maybe allowing a higher AC than intended.

    Mage
    Arcane Strike(Magus): Does this need to specify a main hand attack? If a Magus is using dueling style wielding a longsword, it can draw a dagger as a free action just to sacrifice it’s attack for Arcane Strike.

  3. - Top - End - #783
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    I've fixed any issues not quoted below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Do you gain a proficiency in a new skill with each use on top of previous ones, or if you use this again does it change the proficiency? If you are already proficient, should it grant expertise?
    You gain proficiency for 24 hours, there is purposefully no wording about replacing existing proficiencies nor about expertise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Is this on top of the normal ability modifier, or in place of it?
    Add is addition, so on top of normal ability modifier. See Oath of Devotion for the same wording in RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Tempest domain(Thunder Lord): Should the damage from lightning/thunder spells increase by 1d8 vs 1 target for the Cleric, like attacks do for the Paladin and Avenger?
    Spells can be AoE, so no. It doesn't really fit the flavor to randomly do lightning damage on all damage spells either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Danger Sense: Doesn’t this make you better at Reflex saves than you are with Fortitude at lower levels, if that’s even an issue?
    See PHB 48 under Barbarian. The same is true for them. It's not an issue imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Does Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades(Skald) stack to basically provide full proficiency to the affected skills?
    Using half your proficiency bonus is still using your proficiency bonus so no, they do not stack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Was wondering what the mechanical goal with the wording was, as the flavour seems to allow a lot of odd options, like “dancing” with a greatsword or heavy crossbow. I can see this style being used with two weapons, single one-handed weapons, polearms(Oberon Martell from GoT), or even a bow(Legolas from LotR), but weapons like a maul you don’t really “dance” with imo.
    ...
    I understand locking out d12 weapons, but it also locks out versatile weapons, bows and polearms, is the d10 the balance issue? It still seems to allow two weapon fighting and dueling styles, which pushes the damage up around d10 anyway. Wasn't sure if it mechanics or flavour was the issue.
    See DPR of Homebrew classes. All two handed options do too much damage if an additional attack is allowed at 11th level, that's why it's restricted. They're still amazingly good options.

    Flavor: I could surely see characters built around dancing with those weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    3. Should the AC bonuses stack from Dueling Master(also requires Shield perk) or Dual Wielder perk? Those feats assume a style where you already can’t use a shield, maybe allowing a higher AC than intended.
    Those bonuses would stack, yes. Dervish has a lower AC in general as it does not have access to plate, so it is either 1 below the norm while not dancing or 1 above the norm while dancing. Allowing normal AC bonuses beyond that will not unbalance the game what so ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Mage
    Arcane Strike(Magus): Does this need to specify a main hand attack? If a Magus is using dueling style wielding a longsword, it can draw a dagger as a free action just to sacrifice it’s attack for Arcane Strike.
    "Main hand" is not specified anywhere in the wording: "When you take the Attack action, you can forgo one weapon attack to use a maneuver or cast a spell that has a use time or casting time of 1 action."

  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Spells can be AoE, so no. It doesn't really fit the flavor to randomly do lightning damage on all damage spells either.
    I meant "Spells you cast that deal lightning damage deal an additional 1d8 lightning damage to one target of that spell." just so both melee and caster can benefit equally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Those bonuses would stack, yes. Dervish has a lower AC in general as it does not have access to plate, so it is either 1 below the norm while not dancing or 1 above the norm while dancing. Allowing normal AC bonuses beyond that will not unbalance the game what so ever.
    It also doesn't gain proficiency in Shields at level 1, before it learns to dance. That's not a big deal I know, but it does gimp the Duelist from progressing like other styles, as it needs to get the Armor(Shield) perk before it can reach its Dueling Master perk as that is the prerequisite.
    Last edited by Ugganaut; 2019-03-20 at 08:46 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #785
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    I meant "Spells you cast that deal lightning damage deal an additional 1d8 lightning damage to one target of that spell." just so both melee and caster can benefit equally.
    That wouldn't be a balanced option for AoE spells or cantrips.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    it does gimp the Duelist from progressing like other styles, as it needs to get the Armor(Shield) perk before it can reach its Dueling Master perk as that is the prerequisite.
    The archetype is designed around not having a shield as it has generally higher than normal AC. If a character wants to invest perks to get further AC bonuses that's their choice. Dual Wielder is definitely in easier reach than Shield+Dueling Master.

  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    I've compiled a list of suggestions from my group. I'll try to rank them from more important to less important.

    (1) Highlight or Bold the fact that each class gets a free theme from their power source and a cantrip from it. It is a rule I see a number of people miss.

    (2) Cunning action as a free action give rogues insane manuverability. With boots of speed, haste, or other modifers (such as the perk that lets you dash as a bonus action) Rogue's can move extremely quick. I suggest moving it back to a bonus action. A little choice in how to use their bonus action is fine, the character can choose to do a manuver/spell for more damage or cunning action for utility.

    (3) I've complained about it before and its probably getting old. Precognition should be weakened if it remains as one mana spell.
    Essentially the spell is an improved bless spell with a shield of faith at the same time. On an already high AC character who uses magic items or reactions to improve AC it can make them extremely difficult to attack. I believe that you should clarify in the spell description that this spell cannot work in tandim with any other spells that improve AC/Attack/Saving Throws (e.g., Bless, Shield of Faith, etc). RAW similar buffs cannot stack with themselves but can stack with spells like blur, shield of faith, and bless can all be put on one target. It fun to stack buffs on allies and invest into using them. Precognition just seems to give a lot more than other spells.

    (4) I believe the -1 Damage Reduction for Heavy armor is a little clunky. At best its only a little annoying to keep track of this rule, while at worst it never comes up at all during late game encounters.

    (5) For the metamagic perk I would be more specific for "you gain three more" part of taking the perk again. Do you gain three more metamagic points, metamagic options, or both?

    (6) This is more of a note: dual wielding allows free allows a half caster to attack twice and still cast a spell/cantrip (thanks to Magic Strike etc.). I assume this is intended/calculated but I wanted to mention it just in case!

    (7) The lower mana spells in the Spirit theme seem somewhat weak. Ancestrial Guardians is very lack luster compared to other spells and the damage barely increases when augmented. Though, I'm still getting used to the Occult Power Source in general.

    (8) Was there an explaination to why Finesse was removed as a skill and put into the 'Stealth' skill?

    In addition, I really like these Race/Culture changes. The bonus from each environment should remain very niche. 'Raised by Wolves' is the only one I don't like as it gives a straight proficiency rather than a small flavorful improvement.

    Excited to test out more and I hope this was helpful. My Phoenix Blood Hunter as been very fun to play thus far!

  7. - Top - End - #787
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Thanks for the feedback!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wherf View Post
    (1) Highlight or Bold the fact that each class gets a free theme from their power source and a cantrip from it. It is a rule I see a number of people miss.
    Rules that are missed can't simply be highlighted or everything will become highlighted and then we're back at the same point. If it's being missed it's either a design flaw, poor wording, or a mistake of the user.

    I aim to have very concise wording. If there is a way that I can clean up the wording let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wherf View Post
    (2) Cunning action as a free action give rogues insane manuverability.
    Bonus action has to be freed up to allow the class to function. Maneuevers require bonus action expenditure so without freeing up the bonus action the Rogue would have to weigh Cunning Action (it's main identity) vs being effective. That's not a solid design principle.

    This doesn't mechanically change the Rogue from the RAW Rogue. RAW Rogue should be using Cunning Action every turn. The primary reason not to is TWF, but TWF is balanced against 1 weapon rogues in my system.

    There is a plehorea of movement options in 5e: many subclasses allow dashing as a bonus action and there is a perk that does as well. Monks get crazy speed while rogues choose between speed and other utility like hiding. If you're concerned about magical items (boots of speed) being too powerful then I wouldn't use those magic items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wherf View Post
    (3) Precognition should be weakened if it remains as one mana spell.
    Bless and Precognition are both 1 mana spells that require concentration and last for 1 minute/mana expended.
    Bless targets up to 3 creatures (potentially including yourself) while Precognition can only target yourself.
    Bless gives +d4 on attacks rolls, ability checks, and saving throws while precognition gives +d6 on those and a +d4 on AC.

    Bless is a group buff while Precognition is a self-buff. Self-buffs with concentration are a big consideration. Mechanically, Precognition has to be better than Bless or there is no reason to take it. From a flavor perspective Precognition does increase your AC (see Forseight). Though perhaps there is an argument to be made for +d4 to all instead of +d6/+d4. I've made that change, but I'm not sure it's the right change as self-buffs with concentration are far more vulnerable.

    +X magic items: If you use +X magic items you're going to have a bad time. That's true in RAW and true in my system. I would not recommend using them. RAW can achieve far greater AC values than my system allows for: there are threads with ACs permanently in in the low 30s and bursts up toward 50.

    Regarding stacking: there is no general rule about stacking in D&D 5e. Without such a rule I cannot simply add "does not stack with the same benefit" to every possible benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wherf View Post
    (4) I believe the -1 Damage Reduction for Heavy armor is a little clunky. At best its only a little annoying to keep track of this rule, while at worst it never comes up at all during late game encounters.
    RAW has the Heavy Armor Master feat which gives -3 to damage. If that is fair game then -1 which can be improved to -3 with a perk seems like a fair option. Half Plate and Plate need a benefit to make them better than Dex based armors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wherf View Post
    (5) For the metamagic perk I would be more specific for "you gain three more" part of taking the perk again. Do you gain three more metamagic points, metamagic options, or both?
    There are no "metamagic points". Just metamagic and metamagic options. I'll clarify that you get 3 more metamagic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wherf View Post
    (6) This is more of a note: dual wielding allows free allows a half caster to attack twice and still cast a spell/cantrip (thanks to Magic Strike etc.). I assume this is intended/calculated but I wanted to mention it just in case!
    A half caster can attack twice with a greatsword, or once and a spell. It can also attack three times with two weapons, or twice and a spell. It's all intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wherf View Post
    (7) The lower mana spells in the Spirit theme seem somewhat weak. Ancestrial Guardians is very lack luster compared to other spells and the damage barely increases when augmented. Though, I'm still getting used to the Occult Power Source in general.
    Do you mean Spirit Guardians? The damage is calculated as part of Themes Balance. The biggest factor is the half speed. Half speed is quite a strong debuff. Without half speed the damage could be 3d4. With half speed it's a nerfed version of the RAW spell which is one of the strongest damage spells in the game by RAW. I think the half speed is a bit weird in terms of flavor, but it's there by RAW so I kept it.

    I've adjusted the calculation as a short range half speed debuff is less valuable than a long range half speed debuff. This has raised the damage from 1d4 to 2d4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wherf View Post
    (8) Was there an explaination to why Finesse was removed as a skill and put into the 'Stealth' skill?
    The RAW skill is Sleight of Hand. Being good at picking pockets (and other Sleight of Hand traits) is about how well you can be unnoticed. It's a Stealth skill by that definition. It shouldn't matter if you're hiding a card or your body.

    =============

    Quote Originally Posted by Wherf View Post
    In addition, I really like these Race/Culture changes. The bonus from each environment should remain very niche. 'Raised by Wolves' is the only one I don't like as it gives a straight proficiency rather than a small flavorful improvement.
    Raised by wolves is such a great name though!

    I'm open to suggestions to flesh out desert/forest/grassland/swamp and refine other parts. I agree that the bonuses should be limited, but advantage to climb and advantage on acrobatics to balance on narrow paths is quite strong. Check out https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...nd-suggestions to discuss it further.

    Thanks again for the feedback!
    Last edited by Kryx; 2019-04-01 at 03:58 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #788
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    If you wield two shortswords as a monk, you can two-weapon fight with them. One normal attack + one additional attack.

    Then we have Martial Arts: "When you take the Attack action and attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can attack with another unarmed strike or attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

    Does this stack? Can a monk at 1st level make 3 attacks? I can't see this option on the DPR spreadsheet, but it seems more powerful than quarterstaff: 1d6+atr[main] + 1d6[off] + 1d6+atr[martial arts]
    Last edited by Marcloure; 2019-04-02 at 06:15 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #789
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    A Monk cannot TWF and use Martials arts. They can use one or the other. I should clarify that language somehow. Any suggestions?

  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    A Monk cannot TWF and use Martials arts. They can use one or the other. I should clarify that language somehow. Any suggestions?

    "If you are not wielding a weapon in your other hand"
    , but then the feature is an extra attack with the same weapon or unarmed strike, not with a secondary weapon.

    "[...]you can attack with another unarmed strike or add your ability modifier to the damage of your additional attack when engaged in two-weapon fighting" (or something better based on Two-Weapon Fighting Style).

  11. - Top - End - #791
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    The Monk Martial Arts rules are should now be fully clear.

  12. - Top - End - #792
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    I noticed something with learning new themes that may or may not be a problem.

    The thing is, when you learn a new theme as a Gish archetype, you gain nothing immediately from that theme unless you swap an old spell/maneuver. This happens because Gishes gain one power per level, so they need to use this power to learn the theme itself, thus they can only learn a spell or maneuver from it at the next level.

    Again, I'm not sure if this is big a problem, but certainly it is not very enthusiastic to need two levels to start getting things from a new theme.

  13. - Top - End - #793
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    RAW several full casters and all gishes have dead levels where they gain nothing. It's acceptable that a gish does not gain a new spell for a level when they learn a new theme. They can always swap an old spell for a new spell on the same level so they can pick up a new spell for a less good spell of an earlier tier.

  14. - Top - End - #794
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    After going through Monk I'm confused to why a player would ever choose Martial Artist over Ki Master.

    If you wanted to build a pure martial monk I would still recommend to my players to pick Ki Master. Ki Masters have all the same abilities and nothing limits them from picking all martial abilities. Whereas, if a player chooses a Martial Artist they do not have the option of getting a spell later if they want to, in addition they get 'Ki Strikes' for added flexibility. I think Martial Artist should be removed- the monk class already has several options. If these two subclasses were actually distinct and provided a meaningful choice I would argue otherwise.

    TL;DR: Nothing impedes a Ki Master from being just as good as a Martial Artist at martial combat. Thus, there is no reason to ever choose the Martial Artist subclass.

  15. - Top - End - #795
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Ki Master gains 2 skills while the Martial Artist gains one. Ki Master gains spells and the Martial Artist doesn't.

    This comes from a request for a Monk that doesn't have spells.

    This same problem exists for Ranger as well. Perhaps I can offer it as a note to trade spells for 1 skill or something similar.

  16. - Top - End - #796
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    This same problem exists for Ranger as well. Perhaps I can offer it as a note to trade spells for 1 skill or something similar.
    Monk has always felt like a very flexible class. I think having one subclass is acceptable. Unlike other gish classes a player does not have to have a separate stamina and mana pool both use ki instead. I can see why from a player perspective why going full martial might seem inefficient.

    You could increase the amount of movement speed martial artist gets over ki master. Maybe a more elegant solution is to give Martial Artist an ability like Ki Strike. Im earlier drafts certain monks could use a small free maneuver once a round upon hitting a target.

    Though, with Martial Maneuvers already in the game this could be overkill. A small enhancement to furry of blows could also work. Chance to knock prone, remove reaction against one ally, or a very small bit of temporary health.

  17. - Top - End - #797
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Monk is a flexible class, agreed. I don't think the current split is worth it. It's really there for people who want to build pure martial and not feel like they're "missing out". The same "problem" exists for the Ranger, Warden, and other gishes.

    I don't think it should be solved by an archetype as Ranger and Warden are the level of complexity that an archetype should be.

    If those who want "pure martial" feel like they're missing out then I think 1 skill is enough without going too far.

  18. - Top - End - #798
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Isn't a spell-less Ranger just a Scout Infiltrator Rogue or some sort of outlander/tribal Warrior? I don't feel like the Ranger needs a spell-less version.

  19. - Top - End - #799
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    The Ranger has a spell-less version: just don't pick spells.

    There will always be a demand for pure martial options. 1 skill is a simple option that isn't too much, but enough to feel like it's not a waste for those who want a pure martial.

  20. - Top - End - #800
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    The Ranger has a spell-less version: just don't pick spells.
    Yes, but can't the monk do the same? My question is why does the monk have an archetype to compensate for that and the Naturalist does not?

    I supposed that it was because a spell-less Naturalist would be either a Warrior or a Rogue. The monk doesn't have a similar substitute, so it needed a specialized archetype for its spell-less version. If this is not true, then why does the monk have a spell-less version if the Ranger does not?

  21. - Top - End - #801
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    The Monk shouldn't have an archetype for it, that's what I'm saying above. It should just be a note that GMs can offer to players who want to choose a pure martial option.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Hello
    First of all, love this homebrew, very well thought out and very solid. The rebalance of options is amazing, themes, maneuvers, very nice, good job.

    However, looking over the spells, I 've seen some that were kind of weird. I know that the system once was based on 0-6 mana, and maybe that is the cause, but why some utility spells, namely dispel magic, counterspell, but also some others, were downgraded from 3rd to 2nd level? That is, if 2 mana corresponds to 2nd level, if I read that right.

    Another thing, I know that the cause of it is the DPR balance, I tried to make some sense out of the dpr spreadsheet, but I cant wrap my mind around 2nd level caster casting 2 cantrips, when a warrior can only make one attack. Wouldn't it be better (flavorwise) to just up the dmg of cantrips? Maybe including the casting stat as a dmg mod?

    Nice work again, can't wait to playtest
    Last edited by Golagar; 2019-04-29 at 06:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Golagar View Post
    I cant wrap my mind around 2nd level caster casting 2 cantrips, when a warrior can only make one attack.
    Full-casters get a second cantrip through Quickened Cantrips at 5th level, the same time any martial/gish gain their extra attack. Maybe you checked something wrong? Or are you talking about something else?

  24. - Top - End - #804
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    The reason I use two cantrips instead of increasing the power of cantrips is multipurpose:

    1. Magus uses cantrips along with attacks. I could create a whole system for the Magus to use unique spell-like abilities, but cantrips feels smooth.
    2. Two cantrips mirrors extra attack.
    3. Two cantrips allows for more diversity in options (damage/cc 2 creatures instead of 1, like melee can).

    I changed the level of many spells, mostly damage spells, to be available at lower levels and scale when using more resources.
    Along the way if changing the mana system from 6 to 10 I reevaluated spells and determined that some didn't need to be as high as they are by RAW. Let me know if any specific ones are out of balance.
    Last edited by Kryx; 2019-04-30 at 01:29 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #805
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Apr 2019

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Sorry for the confusion, quicken cantrips is actually at 5th level, but to my understanding, the cantrips scaling was supposed to compensate for the fighters extra attack, they even upgrade at the same levels, so I keep not understanding.

    On the subject of spells, I was just comparing a couple of them throught the converted spell section, and Im only up to letter D, but I already found some spells that got cheaper than in RAW. When I say cheaper, I mean the ammount of mana a spell cost is less than what I expected (1 mana= 1 spell level, 5 mana = 5th level, etc....)

    Antipathy and Sympathy are one level lower than Old Symp/Anti

    Seeing Eye is one level lower than old Arcane Eye

    Gate is one level lower than old Arcane Gate

    Awaken Plants is one level lower than old Awaken

    Banishment is one level lower than Old Banishment

    Force Hand is 3! levels lower than good old Bigby’s (with the same dmg and utility)

    Circle of Divinity is one level lower than Circle of Power

    Teleport, now let me elaborate on this one, you get this at lvl one, and it compares to: Misty step (so lvl 2 against 1 mana) with no augment; Dimension door (this seems balanced, you need to augment to 4 mana to emulate it's effect; and that old 5th lvl spell that lets you teleport with bonus actions for concentration up to a minute (I forgot the name pf that RAW spell) with 3 total mana! (Continuous augment)

    I also have a problem with invisibility characters at level 1 and haste at 3rd char level. ( I was expecting fly to be cheaper as well, but it stayed at 2 mana levitate/3 mana fly) That is way to soon to such powerful utility

    I purposely skipped the dmg spells since I see how you changed some levels/mana costs and grouped together some spells to balance them, and you did a pretty good job.

    But why do all these utility spells got to be accessed by spellcasters sooner?

    Sorry if I sound outraged or something, not my intention at all, I just want to understand the reasons before I migrate to these houserules

    Cheers

  26. - Top - End - #806
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    I purposefully changed spells, not just damage spells as I wrote above:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Along the way if changing the mana system from 6 to 10 I reevaluated spells and determined that some didn't need to be as high as they are by RAW. Let me know if any specific ones are out of balance.


    Specifics:

    Force Hand
    Themes Balance shows why Force Hand is a 2 mana spell. If there is anything out of line let me know.

    Teleport
    Teleport should be reduced to 30 feet, like Misty Step is. The augment can stay at 60 though. I've made this change.
    Teleporting 30 feet as a bonus action for 1 mana is good, but it is an instant benefit for a higher cost than options like Expeditious Retreat that also cost 1 mana, allow a dash as a bonus action, and last 5 minutes.
    Teleporting 30 feet every round as a 3 mana spell is underpowered if anything. There are 1 and 2 mana spells that let you move more than that.

    Invisibility
    Invisibility should be self with an augment to target allies. This should significantly reduce its power as those who can cast it are generally not as sneaky as the party Rogue. 2 mana to cast it on the Rogue who is much more likely to get value out of it seems fair. I've made this change.
    Invisibility is not a "I win" button in that it is only sight. The user can still be heard and there are several ways to counteract it. It's a strong option for certain circumstances, but often given more power than it actually has.

    Haste
    As you've noticed, many spells are available at earlier levels. Haste lasts 1 minute while spells like Expeditious Retreat (1 mana) last 5 minutes so in terms of speed haste isn't the best spell for the purpose. It is a great buff, but largely equates to 1 extra weapon attack per turn. If that is self-cast then it's hard to maintain. If that's cast on an ally then the caster isn't using CC to disable enemies. It seems to be at a fair balance point.

    Levitate/Fly
    Both Levitate and Fly are capable of breaking the game in certain scenarios, hence they were not reduced in level. Levitate on an archer for example can be incredibly encounter breaking as most monsters in D&D 5e do not have ranged attacks. Fly allows characters to bypass obstacles so it should be restricted.

  27. - Top - End - #807
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Teleport
    Teleport should be reduced to 30 feet, like Misty Step is. The augment can stay at 60 though. I've made this change.
    Teleporting 30 feet as a bonus action for 1 mana is good, but it is an instant benefit for a higher cost than options like Expeditious Retreat that also cost 1 mana, allow a dash as a bonus action, and last 5 minutes.
    Teleporting 30 feet every round as a 3 mana spell is underpowered if anything. There are 1 and 2 mana spells that let you move more than that.
    Should Thunder Step be reduced to 90 ft. then? It is otherwise a better teleport spell than Teleport at 2 mana.

  28. - Top - End - #808
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Comparing the few teleport spells:

    Shadow Step: 1 mana, bonus action to teleport 30 feet (requires darkness, but offset by the ability to hide after). 2 mana to teleport 90 feet.
    Teleport: 1 mana, bonus action to teleport 30 feet. 2 mana to teleport 90 feet.
    Thunder Step: 2 mana, action to teleport 120 feet and deal some damage

    Thunder Step can go further and deal damage, but costs an action instead of bonus action. That balance level seems good to me.

  29. - Top - End - #809
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Oh, yeah that is true. I just ignored that it uses an action instead :p

  30. - Top - End - #810
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Great, love the tweaks to teleport and invisibility, I agree with you, if they are too powerful for their level it makes more sense to limit the basic spell and add augments to it than just to raise the minimum mana and gate the spell all together. Low level casters can get (some) effects similar to high levels spells early on if they have the correct theme, as kind of a training until they can learn to unlock the full power of the theme.

    Will continue to go through the spell list to see if I can see some other issue (in my opinion of course) when I have more spare time.

    In the meantime, how would you feel about a way to use the themes (and everything else in the system really) but keep spells refreshing on a long rest? Is it possible without breaking the system? If I would just triple the mana for everyone and have them refresh on a long rest, what would that cause to balance for example? I am kind of a purist in the sense of casters studying and clerics praying in the morning everyday to recharge their powers...
    Last edited by Golagar; 2019-05-02 at 03:33 AM.

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