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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    January 13th, 2018
    Spells
    • Expanded the Animal Companion form options from 10 to 32 and reformatted it. It should be significantly more clear. The vast majority are very simple ports from the Monster Manual and adhere to the animal quite well I believe.

    Naturalist
    • Shifter reworked using the Animal Companion forms The Shifter taking those attacks and traits should provide a "true beast" feel.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    This keeps getting more and more awesome. That being said, I still am kinda disapointed about the lack of undead buffs for the death acolyte. I mean, I understand the choice, but at the same time I can't help but feel making the Oathbreaker's Aura of hate an Acolyte talent would be fitting and not all that OP, at least compared to the Undead Thralls buff that wizards get in base 5e. That being said, it would need some tweeking. I'd personally do it like this:

    Aura of Desecration
    Prerequisites: 5th level, Acolyte or Occultist
    Benefits: All friendly fiends and undead within 10ft of you add your Wisdom or Charisma modifier to their weapon damage rolls. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30ft.

    Again, this dosen't seem too game breaking, and allows for the "lord of undead/minionmancer" playstyle to still be a thing. Again, I can understand not wanting to include this as a talent, but if you don't mind I'd likely allow this talent for an acolyte or occultist in any games I run using your rules as a houserule, if you decide against including something like this yourself.

    Other than that, this looks totally awesome, and I vastly prefer it to vanilla 5e. Great work!
    Last edited by Giegue; 2018-01-16 at 04:59 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    It's a Death domain, not an Undeath domain. An Undeath domain could surely exist and it'd share some things with Death domain, but it'd be it's own unique creation. Either way "undead buffs" is probably not the road I'd approach.

    Mages have no undead buffing in my games either. It's generally something I chose to remove as I believe it's not such a great design. +3-5 damage on all attacks for all minions is definitely not weak. Minionmancy is already a great option in 5e (See Creature Summons). I'll have to add undead summons to that list and calculate where they currently are, but I'd rather see stronger undead like an Ogre Zombie or something more structured than buffs like the RAW Wizard has as that can get a bit out of hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    this looks totally awesome, and I vastly prefer it to vanilla 5e. Great work!
    Thanks for the kind words! It's super nice to read these messages and encourages me to continue. Feel free to provide further critical feedback. It helps me improve my rules by examining things from a new perspective and ultimately makes my rules better.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Well, if you would allow, could I hombrew my own undeath domain for use with this for the needs of my table? A friend and I have a rough undeath domain for our own project and I think it could be adapted to fit your vision. It's desgin is pretty unique...instead of giving all your undead flat bonuses, it actually reduces the number of undead you can control, but makes the few undead you can control a *lot* stronger as a result. Your less about flat buffs to a massive hoard and more about having a few really strong undead. If you like, I can post up a version adapted for your houserules here for you to look at?
    Last edited by Giegue; 2018-01-16 at 05:12 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    Well, if you would allow, could I hombrew my own undeath domain for use with this for the needs of my table? A friend and I have a rough undeath domain for our own project and I think it could be adapted to fit your vision. It's desgin is pretty unique...instead of giving all your undead flat bonuses, it actually reduces the number of undead you can control, but makes the few undead you can control a *lot* stronger as a result. Your less about flat buffs to a massive hoard and more about having a few really strong undead. If you like, I can post up a version adapted for your houserules here for you to look at?
    I think that's an interesting idea. Probably best to take and use the existing monsters like Ogre Zombie where possible.

    I'd be most concerned about balance. Any class feature that can super charge a spell and make the spell more valuable for it's level is something to be rather concerned about. It all depends how it is implemented.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Ok, cool. This is a rough translation of our domain to your system. If you feel it goes too much against the ethos of what your trying to do, feel free to just use it as inspiration for your own undeath domain, or do nothing with it all togther. Either way, if I ever run a game using your system, I likely will make this avalible regardless, at least until you make your own undeath domain, because I have a very different opinion on pets than you it seems. Anywah, here is a rough translation of our domain to your rules.

    Spoiler: Undeath Domain
    Show
    The gods of undeath are often portrayed as evil deities who desire nothing but to corrupt and enslave the living. While this is true for dark gods like Vecna, Urgathoa, Nerull, and Myrkul there are far less malevolent gods like Wee Jas and Osiris who consider the undead as useful tools for study or some other purpose. Followers of this domain learn spells to create undead, as well as alter their magic to raise fewer, but far more powerful undead that surpasses any an arcane caster can animate.

    Domain Spells

    1st: Ray of Sickness, False Life
    3rd: Blindness/Deafness, Ray of Enfeeblement
    5th: Animate Dead, Vampiric Touch
    7th: Blight, Shadow of Moil
    9th: Dance Macabre, Negative Energy Flood

    Tomb-Tainted Soul

    Starting at 3rd level, you become suffused with necrotic energies, enuring you to the powers of the undead and warping your curative magics to be able to heal them. You gain resistance to necrotic damage and have advantage on saving throws against the special abilities and attacks of undead creatures. Additionally, you can treat undead as living creatures instead of undead for the effects of spells you cast that would heal damage or remove conditions. (such as Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration.)

    Channel Divinity

    Also at 3rd level, you gain the following channel divinity options:

    Bone Skin. As an action, you channel your deity's foul power, temporarily entering into a twilight state between life and undeath. You gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage from non-magical sources for 1 minute.

    Command the Dead. As an action, you target one undead you can see within 30ft and invoke your divine authority over it. It must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, it must obey your commands for the next 24 hours, or until you use this Channel Divinity again. Undead who's CR are equal to or greater than your level are immune to this Channel Divinity.

    Rise from the Grave If a living ally within 30ft of you would drop to 0 or less points, you can use your Channel Divinity as a reaction to temporarily grant it the vitality of a zombie. Until the end of their turn, that ally has the Undead Fortitude trait. (See the zombie stablock for details) Additionally, if they succeed on the Constitution saving throw they make with their Undead Fortitude trait and return to 1 hp, they immediately gain an amount of temporary hit points equal to 2d8 + your Wisdom or Charisma modifier that last until the end of their next turn. At 5th level this increases to 3d8 + your Wisdom or Charisma modifier, and at levels 11 and 17 increases again by 1d8, to a maximum of 5d8 + your Wisdom or Charisma modifier at 17th level.

    Empower Undead

    Through faith and devotion to your deity, you have unlocked the secret to maximizing the potential of the few undead, rather than swarm with the many. Starting at 6th level, whenever you cast a spell that would require you to reassert control over undead it creates (such as Animate Dead), you may choose to empower one already existing undead under your control that spell could create instead of creating new undead. Doing this reduces the number of undead you can reassert control of after each long rest with each spell you cast that creates undead by 3 (to a minimum of 1, and a maximum of 3 less.) and instantly causes any undead over this limit you currently control to crumble to dust (leaving them unable to be reanimated again). Empowering an undead in this way grants it the following additional benefits:

    • An empowered undead increases its hit point maximum by twice your Acolyte level
    • The empowered undead gains a bonus to its AC equal to half of your proficiency bonus (minimum 1, rounded down)
    • An empowered undead gains a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to your Wisdom or Charisma modifier (minimum 1)
    • An empowered undead gains Turn Resistance if it did not have it already

    Empowering an undead automatically reasserts control over it, however you must re-empower your controlled undead every 24 hours or the effect ends. You may only empower 2 undead at a time per casting.

    Corrupted Form

    Starting at 14th level, your form twists to become more like that of an undead creature. You can’t be blinded, deafened, frightened, or poisoned, and if an attack is a critical hit against you, it doesn’t deal its extra damage to you.

    Scion of Undeath

    Your devotion to the darker powers of the world have bequeathed you with the knowledge to create a Scion of Undeath, a chosen undead granted divine favor and magic. Starting at 18th level, when you cast a spell that would create undead under your control (such as Create Undead), you may choose perform increase its casting time to 8 hours ritual to imbue an undead creature with you divine magic instead of create new undead. The imbued creature gains the following benefits:

    • The creature gains the effects of your Empowered Undead feature and has its own initiative rolls.
    • The creature’s Wisdom score is increased to 16, or it increases its Wisdom score by 2, to a maximum of 20 (whichever is higher).
    • The creature’s CR is now treated as being 3 higher for the purpose of an Acolyte's Destroy the Faithless talent.
    • The creature learns a number of spells of your choice from the Acolyte spell list equal to your Wisdom or Charisma modifier of 5th level or lower, as well as 2 cantrips of your choice from the Acolyte spell list. The creature has 20 mana with which to cast these spells, and a mana limit of 7. It regains all expended mana whenever you finish a short or long rest, and uses its own Wisdom as its Spellcasting ability.
    • The creature gains the Control Undead and Grim Harvest Channel Divinity options (as-per the Death Domain), and may Channel Divinity once-per short or long rest. It uses its own Wisdom score to set the save DCs for these Channel Divinity options.

    You do not need to re-empower or reassert control over your Scion, however you may only have one controlled at any given time, and if you attempt to create a new Scion, your former leaves your service. You may dismiss control over your Scion at any time with an action, in which it becomes indifferent to you and departs.


    Again, our take on an undeath domain seems VASTLY different from what you want, but I thought I'd post our take none the less just to possibly spur ideeas. Note that our vannella 5e undeath domain (upon which this is based) is also VERY early/beta, so some features may be way too strong. Again, this is just to get ideas flowing and nothing else.
    Last edited by Giegue; 2018-01-16 at 08:49 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Hmm, these kind of things likely belong on their own thread, but let's give it a try and see how it goes.

    You have some great flavor, but some of the features are quite overpowered.

    Let me start out this review by saying that 5e has severely limited the ability to creature a massive ball of minions that severely overwhelm the battlefield and make combats far less fun for everyone not controlling the massive amount of minions. I believe this creation attempts to revitalize that mass summoning aspect that existed in 3.X and has rightfully been removed from 5e because it is overpowered and unfun. This definitely has some good ideas in it, but the goal of mass summoning doesn't have a place in modern D&D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    Domain Spells
    Shadow of Moil is not an undead flavored spell - it's just shadow. Death Ward is far more appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    Tomb-Tainted Soul
    You gain resistance to necrotic damage and have advantage on saving throws against the special abilities and attacks of undead creatures. Additionally, you can treat undead as living creatures instead of undead for the effects of spells you cast that would heal damage or remove conditions. (such as Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration.)
    Resist is ok.
    The Undead avoidance is far better implemented via "Among the Dead" from the Undying Warlock. Check that out.
    Cure wounds should be necromancy as they deal with life and death. Not sure it should apply to undead, but I can let it slide.
    I've never ever heard of a necromancer curing his minions of a disease. They'd be far more likely to let the minion spread the disease or re-animate the undead after it dies from whatever condition. Lesser Restoration does not fit the flavor imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    Bone Skin. As an action, you channel your deity's foul power, temporarily entering into a twilight state between life and undeath. You gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage from non-magical sources for 1 minute.
    This is the first of the really overpowered features. In my rules resistance to B/P/S from nonmagical weapons is available as a subclass feature at 14th level for acolyte and monk. A monk can also use it as a reaction until the next turn for 2 ki.
    The current version you have is vastly superior to Stoneskin for nearly all scenarios. Stoneskin does the same thing, but is a 4th level spell, costs 100g, lasts 1 hour, and requires concentration. The slot cost, 100g, and concentration add up to make Stoneskin a rather mediocre 4th level spell, and this feature is better than it by far. I'd say this is equivalent to a 3rd level spell.

    I'd strongly recommend adjusting this to either be a reaction and last 1 turn or to find another option because this is OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    Command the Dead. As an action, you target one undead you can see within 30ft and invoke your divine authority over it. It must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, it must obey your commands for the next 24 hours, or until you use this Channel Divinity again. Undead who's CR are equal to or greater than your level are immune to this Channel Divinity.
    This feature exists in the Oathbreaker. You should use that name ("Control Undead", the same as I use) and the saving throw should not be Charisma, but Wisdom as it is there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    Rise from the Grave If a living ally within 30ft of you would drop to 0 or less points, you can use your Channel Divinity as a reaction to temporarily grant it the vitality of a zombie. Until the end of their turn, that ally has the Undead Fortitude trait. (See the zombie stablock for details) Additionally, if they succeed on the Constitution saving throw they make with their Undead Fortitude trait and return to 1 hp, they immediately gain an amount of temporary hit points equal to 2d8 + your Wisdom or Charisma modifier that last until the end of their next turn. At 5th level this increases to 3d8 + your Wisdom or Charisma modifier, and at levels 11 and 17 increases again by 1d8, to a maximum of 5d8 + your Wisdom or Charisma modifier at 17th level.
    This is another overpowered feature. Undead Fortitude is a rather strong ability. It's almost as strong as the 4th level spell Death Ward. I'd place this easily as a 3rd level spell. Far too strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    Empower Undead
    Starting at 6th level, whenever you cast a spell that would require you to reassert control over undead it creates (such as Animate Dead), you may choose to empower one already existing undead under your control that spell could create instead of creating new undead. Doing this reduces the number of undead you can reassert control of after each long rest with each spell you cast that creates undead by 3 (to a minimum of 1, and a maximum of 3 less.) and instantly causes any undead over this limit you currently control to crumble to dust (leaving them unable to be reanimated again). Empowering an undead in this way grants it the following additional benefits:

    • An empowered undead increases its hit point maximum by twice your Acolyte level
    • The empowered undead gains a bonus to its AC equal to half of your proficiency bonus (minimum 1, rounded down)
    • An empowered undead gains a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to your Wisdom or Charisma modifier (minimum 1)
    • An empowered undead gains Turn Resistance if it did not have it already

    Empowering an undead automatically reasserts control over it, however you must re-empower your controlled undead every 24 hours or the effect ends. You may only empower 2 undead at a time per casting.
    Firstly the mechanics of this are weird as Animate Dead can only create 1 undead at 3rd level, so reducing to a minimum of 1 at 3rd level is still 1, so just a stronger 3rd level animate dead (which isn't bad, but not like this). At 4th level Animate dead is again only creating 1 minion. Only at 5th level does it finally create 2, but this does not work as is.
    Now for the OP part: Imagine a 9th level acolyte casting Danse Macabre. Each empowered minion now have +18 hp, +5 to hit and damage, and gains turn resistance.
    Each Skeleton now has +5 to hit, +10 to damage (5 from Danse, 5 from this)

    I don't have a full grasp on undead animating spells, but this is simply not going to result in balanced options. If you want stronger undead then I have an idea at the end of this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    Corrupted Form
    Starting at 14th level, your form twists to become more like that of an undead creature. You can’t be blinded, deafened, frightened, or poisoned, and if an attack is a critical hit against you, it doesn’t deal its extra damage to you.
    Avoiding critical hits is not a feature of undead in 5e and I definitely wouldn't recommend porting older edition features to 5e unless there is a basis for them in 5e. Nearly all "immune to crit" features were removed in 5e.

    My Undying Occultist has a great 14th level feature that would fit here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giegue View Post
    Scion of Undeath
    Starting at 18th level, when you cast a spell that would create undead under your control (such as Create Undead), you may choose perform increase its casting time to 8 hours ritual to imbue an undead creature with you divine magic instead of create new undead. The imbued creature gains the following benefits:

    • The creature gains the effects of your Empowered Undead feature and has its own initiative rolls.
    • The creature’s Wisdom score is increased to 16, or it increases its Wisdom score by 2, to a maximum of 20 (whichever is higher).
    • The creature’s CR is now treated as being 3 higher for the purpose of an Acolyte's Destroy the Faithless talent.
    • The creature learns a number of spells of your choice from the Acolyte spell list equal to your Wisdom or Charisma modifier of 5th level or lower, as well as 2 cantrips of your choice from the Acolyte spell list. The creature has 20 mana with which to cast these spells, and a mana limit of 7. It regains all expended mana whenever you finish a short or long rest, and uses its own Wisdom as its Spellcasting ability.
    • The creature gains the Control Undead and Grim Harvest Channel Divinity options (as-per the Death Domain), and may Channel Divinity once-per short or long rest. It uses its own Wisdom score to set the save DCs for these Channel Divinity options.

    You do not need to re-empower or reassert control over your Scion, however you may only have one controlled at any given time, and if you attempt to create a new Scion, your former leaves your service. You may dismiss control over your Scion at any time with an action, in which it becomes indifferent to you and departs.
    I'll assume this was meant for 20th level as that is when Acolytes get their last subclass feature.
    This feature is waaaaaaaay too strong. Imagine combining it with the 14th level feature that I recommended above that allows the caster to not sleep. That'd be 2x uses of this feature a day - quite strong. This should be limited to once per long rest.
    Own initiative is fine.
    Wisdom score increasing to 16+ is quite strong combined with advantage to turning. CR +3 is basically similar to other creature creation spells so it should be ok.
    Spells is insanely OP. 5th level or lower spells is just insanity. I allow a psionic spell to break action economy to cast 3rd level or lower spells, but it requires concentration and your first turn in combat and if you are CC'd then no more spells. This is far beyond the power level of that spell. Imagine those minions casting their own summoning spells - this is simply beyond OP.
    Control Undead just multiplies the amount of minions. Allowing minions to use it is incredibly overpowered by itself.
    Grim Harvest is probably ok.

    =====================


    Undead Creating spells

    Ideally undead creating spells should follow the same CR guidelines that other spells do (4th level = 1x CR 2, 2x CR 1, 3x CR 1/2, 4x CR 1/4). I'd much rather see an Animate Dead remodeled to that structure (with example skeletons/Zombies at each CR) than this patchwork system.
    It could easily be presented like Animate Objects is: a set amount of hp/+hit, and damage per amount of minions.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    January 30th, 2018
    Acolyte
    • War Domain's War Priest no longer requires a bonus action

    Barbarian
    • Danger Sense moved from 2nd to 3rd level to align with other classes
    • Talents increased to progress to 9
    • Bloodrager added

    Fighter
    • Talents increased to progress to 9

    Minstrel
    • Bardic Performance now starts with Inspire and Cutting Words. The other 3 options are gained at level 10.
    • Jack of all Trades moved to a talent

    Monk
    • Slow fall moved from 5th to 2nd level to align with other classes
    • Ki-Empowered Strikes moved from 6th to 5th level to align with other classes
    • Diamond soul moved from 14th to 13th level to align with other classes

    Rogue
    • Danger Sense added at 3rd level
    • Talents increased to progress to 9

    Spellcasting
    • 9th level casters and 5th level casters have had their mana adjusted. A bit of up and down, but most will be slightly up. This more closely aligns with the raw effective spell points.

    Spells
    • Spiritual Weapon brought back. Costs an action instead of a bonus action.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Really great work Kryx. I read through the document in the past two days, and I must say this last version is indeed very inspiring. I really like how Talents are, they let a variety of builds and character concepts, they‘re something almost out of D&D. Also, to create large classes and then make the original classes into specializations is a very neat idea. Well, now I certainly do prefer your houserules over 5e as it is.

    I think I'll run my next game using your rules. I'm just wondering how can I make someone else to read through it. I think I can start by bookmarking it, to help reading and to give order to things.

    I have one question though. How to get a critical hit on a 2d10 system? Rolling a 20? Isn't the chance there very minimal?
    Last edited by Marcloure; 2018-01-31 at 08:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcloure View Post
    Really great work Kryx. I read through the document in the past two days, and I must say this last version is indeed very inspiring. I really like how Talents are, they let a variety of builds and character concepts, they‘re something almost out of D&D. Also, to create large classes and then make the original classes into specializations is a very neat idea. Well, now I certainly do prefer your houserules over 5e as it is.
    Nice, thanks for the feedback! I think I may move back toward 8 (or less) talents as 9 feels like a bit too much, but overall I'm quite pleased with the result of creating them for all classes. Talents could surely benefit from more ideas. Martials for example have just the options previously available as feats. Though martials are harder to flavor benefits for without increasing their combat prowess significantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcloure View Post
    I'm just wondering how can I make someone else to read through it. I think I can start by bookmarking it, to help reading and to give order to things.
    I looked into an automation process for creating bookmarks on a PDF, but the process was not simple or very automated. I release updates to the rules too regularly to do manual bookmarking. :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcloure View Post
    [/B]I have one question though. How to get a critical hit on a 2d10 system? Rolling a 20? Isn't the chance there very minimal?
    18, 19, or 20 for a crit would be a 6% chance which is close enough to the 5% on a d20. That's what I use.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Hey.

    First, I have a quick question. I didn't find the Genasi among your races, do they exist in your homebrew? Well, I suppose your world doesn't have them, since it already have Oread and Undine (which both are basically Earth and Water Genasi). So I'm just checking if I didn't stomped over anything, and to find if you have any plans for Fire Humans and Air Humans.

    Second, I'm not sure how I feel about the Android race. They gain a lot of tenacity; it's very hard to affect them with control magic and many other effects. Having Constructed Body and Cibernetic Mind makes the Android very resistant to nasty effects (like paralyze and stun and illusions and charm), which usually already have repeating saves. And then they can also self heal by something very close to what the fighter can.
    Their features are tematically fitting, sure, and I'm aware they have disadvantage on all Insight checks (which is a fairly major skill). But comparing the Android with Forest and Rock Gnome, I think the Android is over the two.
    Last edited by Marcloure; 2018-02-08 at 02:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Hey, thanks for checking out the rules.

    Pathfinder has Ifrit (fire), Sylph (air), Oread (earth), and Undine (water). You can rename them genasi if it suits your setting. I had Sylph and Ifrit in an earlier version. I should probably look at bringing them back.


    Androids have 4 features: Constructed Body, Cybernetic Mind, Repairing Nanites, and Darkvision. Darkvision is common and a decent boost, but lets look at the other three:

    Constructed body: This is a strong ability, but such is the flavor of robots. Making them just as susceptible to poison and disease as a humanoid for example would make no sense.
    Cybernetic mind: This is a strong ability, though it is present in the gnome as well as the gillmen. It's great, but it also comes with the drawback of insight so it's less valuable than those cases.
    Repairing nanites: This feature is like having 1 extra hit dice. It's nice, but a small boost.

    I think Android is a strong race, not sure about OP though. Perhaps I'll do a more complete analysis soon.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Constructed body: This is a strong ability, but such is the flavor of robots. Making them just as susceptible to poison and disease as a humanoid for example would make no sense.
    I think advantage against diseases, exhaustion and poisoned is totally fine. Also is the healing die and the advantage against magic (which would also include most charming effects).
    But having advantage on saves against paralyzed and stunned, on top of all of that, seems a bit too much. I would drop just this part, but I'm not sure if then the race would be kind of too simple.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    I had a similar thought process in my head. Perhaps stunned and payalyzed could be ditched, but they exist on the PF Android so I'm tempted to keep them. Perhaps that's silly though.

    I need to do a proper analysis of races before making changes though. A system like "Detect Balance" could help here (though I think some of his numbers are quite off). I could use some help doing that if you'd be interested. :)

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Hey Kryx. I just wanted to thank you for this incredible work and I hope you will keep updating all the changes you do to the main document, as I introduced your houserules to some gaming groups here in Berlin and no one wants to go back to 5e original.

    Since we only use your modified version, I have to say it's exceptionally useful that u keep updating all the little details, so I can correct or match what my players already have.

    Thank you very much for your work.

    PS: I am a huge fan of homebrewing and adding more and more subclasses to your existing ones. Is there any class or subclass in dmsguild.com that u have your eyes on? Something that would fit right in?

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Hi Tyresias, great to hear! We almost moved to Berlin several times now, but it never quite worked out.

    I will continue to work on this project. I'm a bit focused on my sheet for roll20 and with real life stuff like buying an apartment, but will touch up a few things soon.

    I don't have any pending ideas - I exhausted all the current ones that bothered me (Druid not being forced into wild shape, better sorcerer, etc). Some areas could probably use a bit of touch up (races, martial talents), but it feels pretty solid overall. Feel free to contribute if you have ideas!

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Was asked to move my questions here from PMs, so here we go:

    1. Seeing the Talents system, how do these interact with Homebrew classes (obviously they would have to be converted to having your tables to include Talents, but just for the sake of brevity)?
    1a.) How did you come up with Talents for classes? I see the general ones are basically Feats, but are the ones for prerequisite classes features sucked out and put into Talents or what?
    1b.) Depending on the answer to 1a, would a homebrewer have to come up with their own Talents to fill the void for their classes?

    2. With the Saves system you have, I'm sort of confused how they are calculated. Could you try to explain how the ones that don't go off one stat are calculated?
    2a.) With that said, maybe for us non-mathy types an example could be provided in how the saves are converted? Or maybe even a table with what numbers would make what averages (as the max would only be "+5/+5" given the ability score cap is 20)?

  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Hey, thanks for the questions!

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkerShep View Post
    1. Seeing the Talents system, how do these interact with Homebrew classes (obviously they would have to be converted to having your tables to include Talents, but just for the sake of brevity)?
    1a.) How did you come up with Talents for classes? I see the general ones are basically Feats, but are the ones for prerequisite classes features sucked out and put into Talents or what?
    1b.) Depending on the answer to 1a, would a homebrewer have to come up with their own Talents to fill the void for their classes?
    Talents are generally warlock invocations, RAW feats (commonly split into half the original power), and many custom invocation-like talents. For example the naturalist ones are mostly created by me using references from other materials. Those references might be pathfinder or other 5e homebrew.

    Homebrew classes don't necessarily need talents, though it entirely depends on the design of the class. Think of talents like optional directions that a class could go. They are somewhat similar to subclasses, but provide much less depth. They are often to dabble or slightly increase the effectiveness of something that the character can already do. Ideally all classes should have class specific talents. Some inspiration for new talents could be old editions of the game (Pathfinder has a lot of options to pull from).

    That said many talents are designed to work across class. For example all of the spellcasting talents work across multiple classes. The origin/flavor of said talents may change, but the effect is the same. So the amount of talents per class is generally going to be small.

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkerShep View Post
    2. With the Saves system you have, I'm sort of confused how they are calculated. Could you try to explain how the ones that don't go off one stat are calculated?
    2a.) With that said, maybe for us non-mathy types an example could be provided in how the saves are converted? Or maybe even a table with what numbers would make what averages (as the max would only be "+5/+5" given the ability score cap is 20)?
    Saves are specified in the document:
    Fortitude uses your Constitution modifier
    Reflex uses the average of your Strength and Dexterity modifiers
    Will uses the average of the highest two modifiers from your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma modifiers.
    The first two are simple. Will is the highest 2 of the 3 modifiers.

    I prefer to take it one step further and use ability scores to benefit odd scores, but that is optional. For example str 15 and dex 13 would be 15+13=28/2 = 14-10 = 4/2 = +2. If you only use ability modifiers then 2+1 = 3/2 = 1.5 which is rounded down to 1.

    The page is a bit long already, but I can try to add an example in.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Dear Kryx,

    I really enjoy your work, so much so I’m in the process of updating our game to use your house rules, and I had some questions about the Shifter.


    Question 1: Aspect of the Beast

    Could you clarify what the Shifter's Aspect of the Beast does? I can’t quite work out what Challenge 3, 4 and 5 trait refer to. I would assume this has to do with casting the Animal Companion spell at a higher level unlocking more traits, but there still only seems to be primary and one secondary trait for each form. Casting it at 7th level gives the companion an enhancement, but as that is the Shifter’s 11th level ability it seems unlikely that its 5th level ability is referring to enhancements.


    Question 2: Wild Shape Size

    If I am reading this correctly, when casting Animal Companion, the size of the animal is related to the level it is cast, so casting Animal Companion with 3 mana could summon a small rat or a small elephant, and their statistics would be the same except for their speeds, attacks and traits.

    So, if a Human Shifter with a strength of 16 shifts into the form of a rat, what is his size and what is his strength? Is he tiny because that is the default size for a rat, or small because that is the default size for animal companions without spending more mana, or medium because that is his default size as a human?

    If the answer is tiny, retaining his 16 strength seems odd.

    If the answer is small or medium, is there any way to wild shape into other sized forms? Does he need to cast Polymorph or another spell to turn into a tiny rat, or a large animal?

    The Shape Changer talent would let a character often turn into a rat or the like, but Polymorph replaces the targets mental ability scores, so transforming into a rat with rat-intelligence might make it difficult to, say, spy on a conversation.

    Is there an option for a Naturalist to turn into a tiny, weak spy rat that I am missing?


    Question 3: Homebrew Advice

    One of my player’s is playing is a druid, and I worry about stripping his character of its current abilities. The other PCs translate very cleanly. I may need to do some homebrewing to make something that fits his character, using the templates for classes you’ve set out. Could you tell me a bit about the problems with standard 5e’s wild shape that led to your design decisions? As a class feature, how powerful do you feel the standard 5e wild shape (specifically Circle of the Moon’s upgraded CR restrictions) is compared to your Shifter’s wild shape?


    Thank you very much for taking the time to read this, and for making these house rules!

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Hi Iridisink,

    Thanks for taking the time to take a look at my project!


    Aspect of the Beast
    I made a few revisions to the Animal companion since the Shifter was created, but the Shifter just needs some wording updates (everything is functionally the same). The second paragraph oe Aspect of the beast should read:

    Additionally you gain a trait from the “Animal Form Secondary Trait” table for your beast form listed under “Animal Companions” at the end of the Spells document.
    So for example if you're a panther then you get pounce, a wolf gets pack tactics, etc.

    =======

    Wild Shape Size
    See the Wild Shape section: "you retain your other game statistics including your ability scores and alignment."

    Wild Shape has no impact on the size nor the ability scores of the Shifter. In your example a medium sized Human shifter with 16 strength retains his 16 strength and turns into a medium sizes rat.

    Polymorph is the expected way to take on different sized animals and would be more useful for things like scouting. Keep in mind there is a Naturalist talent that requires 5th level that allows the Shifter to transform into beasts with a challenge rating of 1 or lower if such a playstyle is desired.


    =======

    Druid/Wild Shape RAW Issues
    Wild Shape, by RAW, is a poorly designed feature, imo.

    From a flavor perspective I find it perposterous that every nature based spellcaster is able to master the art of turning into beasts. That is not the case in stories at all. In stories only an incredibly small amount of such spellcasters can turn into beasts.

    From a mechanical perspective Wild Shape has an abundant amount of issues:

    1. Beast options have very poor internal balance with some of the beasts being signficiantly stronger than others. The power balance is all over the place. This leads to players choosing a form based on function, not flavor.
    2. RAW Wild Shape starts off very strong for the Moon Druid, but becomes quite weak as the levels go on.
    3. RAW Wild Shape suffers many of the same problems that the Polymorph spell does in that there are a limited amount of beasts and many simply become bags of hit points
    4. Ability scores of the character do not matter. Ability scores should matter and dumping certain scores should have an impact on the game or there is no point to have ability scores. Wild Shape is a huge offender here


    My goal was to make a flavorful, useful, and balanced implementation of the Druid, Wild Shape, and Polymorph abilities and the result is what is written in my rules. I believe I have mostly accomplished those goals.


    Thanks for taking the time to ask questions, providing me with feedback. Please feel free to challenge my opinions or raise your own ideas!

  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Thank you for the quick and detailed reply! That all makes perfect sense and it's given me a couple of ideas for small changes to suit my game. Cheers.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by iridisink View Post
    small changes to suit my game.
    This is a good place to share such changes - I'm curious what doesn't work for your games.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    About the Heat Metal spell, on Kryx's Spells, pg. 53.

    a) In "you can use a bonus action on each of your subsequent turns to attempt to heat the metal again", to attempt to heat the metal means to deal damage and disadvantage if the target fails a Con. save?

    b) Higher Level casting increases the damage by 1d8, but the spell deals d6 damage. I guess the damage should then increase by 1d6 per slot level, no?
    Last edited by Marcloure; 2018-02-19 at 11:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Two new questions from me that popped into my mind:

    1. Will you also be making a character sheet (outside of Roll20) that is adapted to have your new things such as the new saves? Something like an editable PDF?

    2. In the game I'm currently in (using the normal rules, not yours) I play a Blood Hunter (I know, outside of the scope of your rules, more a curiosity thing than anything) with the Dueling Fighting Style and was curious why the "or shields" was put on the Stance? Obviously if I ever can convince them to play your rules we can houserule ourselves that a Blood Hunter can also have Protection Stance so I can still Sword and Board, but just to humor me as I'm actually interested in the details.

  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Heat metal repeats the same saving throw with the same possible results, yes. The 1d8 at a higher level is a typo. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=639488216 has it as 1d6, but it looks like I somehow missed updating it on my doc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkerShep View Post
    1. Will you also be making a character sheet (outside of Roll20) that is adapted to have your new things such as the new saves? Something like an editable PDF?
    Probably not. I have a lot of projects on my plate and don't play with physical sheets. It'd be great if some interested community member would pursue this path to change the saves and update the skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkerShep View Post
    Dueling Fighting Style and was curious why the "or shields" was put on the Stance?
    I'll have to come back to this as I can't currently find the discussion about it. Previously I had it do +1 if wielding a shield, but this simplified it. Possibly related ideas: 1 handed weapon+shield did too much damage compared, make room for proper 1 handed weapon stance, or something else. The making room for 1 handed weapon stance feels a bit of a weak reason so I'll have to refresh my memory for why that change was made (and write it down!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    This is a good place to share such changes - I'm curious what doesn't work for your games.
    I promise to come back and update you once I know myself.

    I'm looking at changes to polymorph and/or the shapechanger talent to bring the level requirement down (lower spell level, lower CR limit on forms perhaps), as this party is only level 3. And I'm considering a mechanic where a wisdom check or save is made to retain your full mind when you are polymorphed, something a druid/shifter would get better at as they went up in levels. The DC could increase with the CR of the form, or maybe the check is repeated every ten minutes and the DC increases the longer you stay in the form.

    Also looking for ways a shifter could learn to change into large size animals, perhaps with a strength bonus, at the cost of mana/as a primal energy. Even just the choice to cast enlarge on themselves as part of the transform action once they reach a certain level. Hm now that I think about it, being able to cast reduce on themselves as a primal energy allows for the possibility of adorably small elephants.

    Really I just want to make my players happy, so I am hesitant to take away things they could do before or thought they will do when they reach higher levels. But you are right about the problematic design of Wild Shape, so I don't just want to revert to that.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    3rd spell level is the lowest that I'd take Polymorph - it's comparable in power to fireball for example. 1 CR/spell level is a decent scalable option, though I'd be curious to math out the damage effectiveness and see if my earlier change holds up.

    I'd really avoid strength bonuses on Shifting. Check out my DPR of Homebrew Classes. Even small adjustments to strength would drastically impact DPR as it raises to hit and damage. Using the mechanics of Enlarge/Reduce would be fine though, as long as the mana cost is there.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Hello again,

    I have a couple of questions about the Occultist's Archfey power Moon Shadow.

    The feature allows you to turn invisible immediately after casting a spell of 1st level or higher. The invisibility lasts until the end of your turn or until attack or cast a spell. But you can also turn invisible immediately before casting a spell as a once per rest ability.

    Could you guide me through the utility of this feature? I could use it to avoid opportunity attacks, but I couldn't technically use the hide action as I have used my action to cast a spell (I could move behind full cover, I suppose). If the invisibility lasted until the beginning, or the end, of my next turn would that be too powerful?

    If I turn invisible immediately before I cast a spell, does it end once I cast the spell, as that is one of the triggers the breaks the invisibility? Once I use the Before version I need to rest to do it again, but can I do the After version after using the Before version before resting? Why is the Before version worth triggering the need to rest, what makes it so considerably more useful than the After version?

    Thank you for your help.

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    The before usage is restricted otherwise spells with an attack like blight would always be cast with advantage on the attack roll.

    If used before a spell is cast then the invisibility would immediately end - that's correct. The only reason I have the before wording is for the attack spells.

    For normal usage it can be used for anything you use invisibility for. It provides the caster with a significant defensive ability against being targeted by attacks and spells. Avoiding opportunity attacks is a good example, or slipping past detection is another. Hide action could be used the next round if desired, though that's the same with the other invisibility spells.
    You don't need to be behind full cover to benefit from invisibility: creatures still can't see you which means they have to determine the space you are in somehow and still attack with disadvantage. Many spells require sight of a target so those are foiled by this as well.
    Last edited by Kryx; 2018-02-25 at 05:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Ah, the current text reads: "the invisibility lasts until the end of your turn", not next turn. This was the source of my confusion. That clears everything up!

    Thank you again for all this work. One of the very cool things about your rules is the ability to mix-and-match abilities without too much fear of throwing off the balance. For example, one of my players is a warlock whose patron is a hybrid fey-shadow to suit the in-game story (shadow spells, shadow abilities at levels 6, 14, fey for all the rest). I know your rules aren't explicitly designed for this kind of hacking, but that flexibility is great for aligning the mechanical side with the story.

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