The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 7 of 30 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314151617 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 210 of 900
  1. - Top - End - #181
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    There would be situations, like a full caster, where you're weapon will most likely be a staff or dagger. Admittedly you'd be better off using something like Shadow Blade, but any situation where the goal would be to get disadvantage and miss just seems wrong. See how the changes go.
    Indeed it's a bit weird, though there is one or two cases by RAW that deal half damage on an attack miss so I think Shadow Blade's functionality is ok. We'll see what I can come up with for Umbral.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Will you add a Force theme?
    Force theme is already there on page 35. I'm still deciding the theme layout between force and telekinesis as there is some crossover, especially in 3.5/PF psionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Was talking with my DM about the new spell themes, he really liked the idea. Looking forward to seeing the final product, great work as always :)
    I think the idea is really promising. I've already been working on it for quite a while now and it'll probably take quite a bit more work, but I'm excited to see how it'll work in the end. Thanks for the continued feedback.

  2. - Top - End - #182
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Indeed it's a bit weird, though there is one or two cases by RAW that deal half damage on an attack miss so I think Shadow Blade's functionality is ok. We'll see what I can come up with for Umbral.
    Yeah Shadow Blade is fine, half damage is a good mechanic imo. Its the primary effect on a miss(Umbral) that feels wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Force theme is already there on page 35. I'm still deciding the theme layout between force and telekinesis as there is some crossover, especially in 3.5/PF psionics.
    Ah, I had an older version. No Eldritch Blast cantrip, or just haven't finished yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    I think the idea is really promising. I've already been working on it for quite a while now and it'll probably take quite a bit more work, but I'm excited to see how it'll work in the end. Thanks for the continued feedback.
    Your welcome. I'm looking forward to going through it more thoroughly when you get it finished.

  3. - Top - End - #183
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Ah, I had an older version. No Eldritch Blast cantrip, or just haven't finished yet?
    If you can make sense of my ThemesTODO page you can see that I'm unsure what to do with Eldritch Blast. It does force damage, sure, but it doesn't fit the theme of "force". Eldritch, by definition, is "weird and sinister or ghostly". That fits necrotic damage or another damage type much better. In 3.5 the damage is untyped, which probably made them choose force, but force seems like the wrong damage type for Eldritch Blast.

  4. - Top - End - #184
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    If you can make sense of my ThemesTODO page you can see that I'm unsure what to do with Eldritch Blast. It does force damage, sure, but it doesn't fit the theme of "force". Eldritch, by definition, is "weird and sinister or ghostly". That fits necrotic damage or another damage type much better. In 3.5 the damage is untyped, which probably made them choose force, but force seems like the wrong damage type for Eldritch Blast.
    Call it Arcane Blast/Bolt, but basically the same. Personally I think it should be d8 if it can only target one creature, maybe with a 5ft push/mana, or d6 for individual hit rolls as normal and no secondary effect, as it can stack with "on hit" effects.

    Mage Hand/Minor Telekinesis should probably be a force cantrip too.

    Why is Force Armor a base of 12 for 1 mana? I never found Mage Armor at 13+Dex and 8hrs to be overpowered. I can see the 4hr increment is needed or you could eventually make it last 48hrs. The fact that mages need to use a resource to get basic armor seems harsh enough.

    Force Screen is nice. At first glance Shield seemed a bit underpowered for the cost, but if it stacks with Armor and Screen, it feels really good. Any reason the iconic "Absorbs Magic Missile" isn't there, even as an augment option?

    Force Barrier, same comment as Stoneskin, an augment for magic b/p/s would be nice.

    Sorry I'm commenting before reading the whole thing, it's easier to keep track of thoughts :)

  5. - Top - End - #185
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Call it Arcane Blast/Bolt, but basically the same. Personally I think it should be d8 if it can only target one creature, maybe with a 5ft push/mana, or d6 for individual hit rolls as normal and no secondary effect, as it can stack with "on hit" effects.
    That's a different spell though, and not the same thing as Eldritch Blast. I'm unsure what to do about "generic force damage" that some 3.5/PF psionics has, but just applying generic damage isn't so interesting compared to frost or acid's themes.
    http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/warlock/index.html shows the flavor of Eldritch Blast: "A warlock attacks his foes with eldritch power, using baleful magical energy to deal damage and sometimes impart other debilitating effects."

    If we're trying to capture Eldritch Blast then we should do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Mage Hand/Minor Telekinesis should probably be a force cantrip too.
    Force and Telekinesis will be different themes I believe. There are quite a number of spells for each to stand on their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Why is Force Armor a base of 12 for 1 mana? I never found Mage Armor at 13+Dex and 8hrs to be overpowered. I can see the 4hr increment is needed or you could eventually make it last 48hrs. The fact that mages need to use a resource to get basic armor seems harsh enough.

    Rogue's start with 11 + dex at level 1. They will generally have 14 AC at level 1.
    Lets compare Light armor on a Rogue and Force Armor on a Wizard to see why 13 + dex is far too much (using standard 4/8 ASIs from RAW, though that assumes +2 dex on each):
    Level 1:
    Rogue: 11+3 = 14 AC
    RAW Mage Armor: 13+2-3 = 15-16 AC
    Force Armor: 12+2-3 = 14-15 AC

    Level 2-3:
    Rogue: 12+3 = 15 AC
    RAW Mage Armor: 13+2-3 = 15-16 AC
    Force Armor: 12+2-3 = 14-15 AC

    Level 4:
    Rogue: 12+4 = 16 AC
    RAW Mage Armor: 13+2-3 = 15-16 AC
    Force Armor: 13+2-3 = 15-16 AC (augmented)

    Level 8:
    Rogue: 12+5 = 17 AC
    RAW Mage Armor: 13+2-3 = 15-16 AC
    Force Armor: 13+2-3 = 15-16 AC (augmented)

    So the Rogue has worse AC than a Wizard until it can buy studded leather and improve its dexterity, the second at a substantial cost. The Wizard also has a myriad of defensive spells like Shield, Mirror Image, etc. The rogue, and other dex classes, have some, but it's not comparable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Force Screen is nice.
    Same mechanics as Shield of Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    At first glance Shield seemed a bit underpowered for the cost, but if it stacks with Armor and Screen, it feels really good. Any reason the iconic "Absorbs Magic Missile" isn't there, even as an augment option?
    Reactions, by nature, break action economy and need to be limited in their application. Shield, by RAW, providing +5 AC as a reaction is insanely overpowered. That allows me to block ~50% more damage. It's insane.

    Compare it to a spell like Shield of Faith which also somewhat breaks the action economy (bonus action), and grants a +2 AC. Sure, it lasts for a while, but a caster would have to precast it (reducing their effectiveness as they can't cast a spell on the same turn). Additionally a caster isn't going to be hit all the time, only every once in a while so the investment isn't needed like it is on a melee character.

    1+mana is +2 AC as a 1 mana spell. +2 AC is a substantial difference. It's not just "10%" more defensive, but actually around 19-20% more defensive. It should allow a Wizard to say no to a DM, but not as often as RAW shield does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Sorry I'm commenting before reading the whole thing, it's easier to keep track of thoughts :)
    Totally fine - keep them coming! This on the fly method is easier for me to respond to.

  6. - Top - End - #186
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Not that interested in capturing the flavor of Eldritch Blast, more its effects as a force cantrip. If Eldritch Blast is supposed to be a warlock feature, then that's what it should be, a feature in that class, not available to others. But a force attack cantrip is needed imo.
    Force has never really had the same flavor impact as fire/frost/acid. Those types have unique secondary effects, like ongoing damage, or hindering movement. Force is more generic, it slams things, its hard to resist, and tends to move things. That's been my impression anyway.
    That's also why I always saw force and telekinesis as the same theme, although it might be good to separate them if there are to many spells. Force is more brute force(slams, barriers etc), and Telekinesis is more controlled manipulation(crush, move etc).

    I agree 5e Shield is too strong, and like your version as it stacks with the others in that theme well.

    Rogues prioritize Dex first. Casters usually have to choose or split between Dex and Con(more than rogue due to Concentration) for their secondary. As you have in your example, rogues catch up very quickly. Getting the best armor for a rogue(studded) has never been much of an issue in any game I've played. Yes, at 1st level the mage might beat them by 1-2, but that doesn't seem like a bad thing, and it cost a mage a resource that is very limited at that level. Cash becomes less of an issue as you gain levels, and is a once off purchase. In your example, the mage has to spend 2 mana for that armor at least once each day. That's quite significant. 1 is bad enough. Most people I know would dip 1 level in another class, to get either armor prof, or Unarmored Defense of some sort to save themselves that 2 mana. Especially in your new system, 2 mana can do a lot of extra damage/stuff.

  7. - Top - End - #187
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Not that interested in capturing the flavor of Eldritch Blast, more its effects as a force cantrip. If Eldritch Blast is supposed to be a warlock feature, then that's what it should be, a feature in that class, not available to others.
    Then you are not interested in Eldritch Blast. Eldritch Blast, as stated above, is a spell that "[uses] baleful magical energy to deal damage and sometimes impart other debilitating effects."
    Baleful is not force damage. Eldritch Blast doesn't need to be a warlock feature anymore than the myriad of wizard themed spells need to be wizard features. But the flavor does need to match the mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    But a force attack cantrip is needed imo.

    Force has never really had the same flavor impact as fire/frost/acid. Those types have unique secondary effects, like ongoing damage, or hindering movement. Force is more generic, it slams things, its hard to resist, and tends to move things. That's been my impression anyway.
    I'm not fully convinced of this. Force is a nebulous catch-all term in 5e. What is force damage? If force damage is a shockwave explosion then we have thunder damage to cover that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    That's also why I always saw force and telekinesis as the same theme, although it might be good to separate them if there are to many spells. Force is more brute force(slams, barriers etc), and Telekinesis is more controlled manipulation(crush, move etc).
    Telekinetic force is quite different from force damage. Telekinetic force is matter being compressed or thrown (where it crosses into bludgeoning). Force is Magic Missile - think of arcane darts from Dark Souls. They are very very different damage types. 5e abuses "force" as a catch-all. The way you describe force fits with bludgeoning damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    I agree 5e Shield is too strong, and like your version as it stacks with the others in that theme well.
    The same mechanics exist on Air, Earth, and Water shields. I'll take a second look, but it'd probably either be 1+mana or 2+mana.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Rogues prioritize Dex first. Casters usually have to choose or split between Dex and Con(more than rogue due to Concentration) for their secondary. As you have in your example, rogues catch up very quickly. Getting the best armor for a rogue(studded) has never been much of an issue in any game I've played. Yes, at 1st level the mage might beat them by 1-2, but that doesn't seem like a bad thing, and it cost a mage a resource that is very limited at that level. Cash becomes less of an issue as you gain levels, and is a once off purchase. In your example, the mage has to spend 2 mana for that armor at least once each day. That's quite significant. 1 is bad enough. Most people I know would dip 1 level in another class, to get either armor prof, or Unarmored Defense of some sort to save themselves that 2 mana. Especially in your new system, 2 mana can do a lot of extra damage/stuff.
    In old editions this wasn't a problem for seveal reasons:
    • Rogues started with +4 dex, giving them +6 AC while Wizards generally had +2 dex +4 from mage armor for +6
    • The dex of Rogues scaled from +4 while the Wizard's spells scaled up their mage armor

    Now in 5e we have quite a disparity between a low level rogue and a low level wizard. 14 vs 15-16 AC is emphatically wrong. "Very quickly" is a false narrative as the vast majority of the game is played at low levels (below 7). The rogue doesn't catch up until level 4.

    The problem here is that the Wizard starts too high and has no AC scaling while the armor wearers do. A rogue gets more dex and a fighter buys better armor. A wizard will almost always be stuck with their same AC their whole career. So the solution here is to reduce the AC which is way too high to start and let it scale like all spells do.
    Also keep in mind that a Wizard has equivalent AC to a heavy armor class at level 1 if they have +3 dex (they probably should).

    Barbarian has 12+con=15 as its armor system and slowly scale.
    Bard scales like a rogue or fighter
    Cleric/Fighter/Paladin will have 16 AC or 13+3.
    Druid will be the same as a mage (Barkskin replaced with mage armor equivalent)
    Monk has 10+dex+wis= 15-16 and scale decently
    Ranger will have 13+3=16 and scale to 15+3
    Sorcerer will have 13+dex (max 4)
    Occultist will scale like a rogue


    After typing the above I've remembered that I redid the armor in my system to correct this problem. 13+dex (max 4) on force armor solves the problem when using that system. I'll make that change.

  8. - Top - End - #188
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Changelog to Thematic spells:

    General
    • All damage scaling adjusted down to aim for about 85 at 6 mana. See Spell Themes Balance. There are still a few outliers that I need to fix, but will work on those later.

    Corrosion
    • Acid fog now does half damage at the end of the creature's turn

    Earth
    • Added Augment to Stoneskin to work against magical b/p/s weapons

    Force
    • Added Augment to Force Barrier to work against magical b/p/s weapons

    Frost
    • Ice Shield renamed Ice Block
    • Winterís Bite converted to pure damage and effect (no AC)

    Light
    • Continual Flame moved to 1 mana

    Poison
    • Cloudkill now applies the Poisoned condition

    Shadow
    • Arms of Hadar renamed Shadow Tendrils
    • Hunger of Hadar under Darkness renamed to Hungering Darkness
    • Cloak of Shadows renamed to Shadow Cloak and it is an AC boost now
    • Shadowy Reprisal added as the damage reaction and push/pull
    • Umbral Weapon reworked to lessen light around it and blind when it is expended

  9. - Top - End - #189
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Then you are not interested in Eldritch Blast. Eldritch Blast, as stated above, is a spell that "[uses] baleful magical energy to deal damage and sometimes impart other debilitating effects."
    Baleful is not force damage. Eldritch Blast doesn't need to be a warlock feature anymore than the myriad of wizard themed spells need to be wizard features. But the flavor does need to match the mechanics.
    True, Eldritch Blast isn't what I'm interested in, its the spells effect. I agree an Eldritch Blast themed spell doesn't need to limited to warlock, and the mechanics of the spell as its written, should be changed to fit the flavor you mentioned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    I'm not fully convinced of this. Force is a nebulous catch-all term in 5e. What is force damage? If force damage is a shockwave explosion then we have thunder damage to cover that.
    Telekinetic force is quite different from force damage. Telekinetic force is matter being compressed or thrown (where it crosses into bludgeoning). Force is Magic Missile - think of arcane darts from Dark Souls. They are very very different damage types. 5e abuses "force" as a catch-all. The way you describe force fits with bludgeoning damage.
    Maybe its just the way I visualize force damage, and the properties it had in previous editions. Magic force, I saw as arcane energy made solid. It was a type of bludgeoning. Defensively, when used to create barriers, it was incredibly strong(Force Cage). I could be remembering this wrong. Offensively, it like bludgeoning damage(it didn't burn, singe, freeze etc), but it had the additional property of bypassing certain defenses. It was magical for starters, but the main thing I remember from previous editions(maybe 2nd?), was it didn't do half damage to incorporeal creatures(not sure when that changed). So while fire burned, cold froze etc, the property of force was it was hard to stop unless using your own force protection(Shield spell), and hard to penetrate. If magic missiles does force damage, then that damage type exists, and why not make a cantrip using that same damage type. Otherwise magic missiles would do bludgeoning, and that has implications for things that have resistance against bludgeoning, removing its "hard to stop" property.
    (Criminally, I haven't played Dark Souls)
    Thunder damage is sound/vibration. My DM hates that thunder is a damage type, but its not the same as force damage, and has the same implications if you made it bludgeoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    The same mechanics exist on Air, Earth, and Water shields. I'll take a second look, but it'd probably either be 1+mana or 2+mana.
    Sorry if it sounds like I've been criticizing your version of Shield. I was saying at first glance it seemed weak, but changed my mind as it stacks so well with other force spells. Either 1+mana or 2+mana I think would be fine.
    Edit: Actually considering the resource cost, I think +2AC per mana is more appropriate. I understand why they made it +5 now. Yes its incredibly powerful, but it protects you for 1 round, then that resource is gone. In your themed version, you're sacrificing major damage output for that brief protection, it should be significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    [SIZE=1][S]The problem here is that the Wizard starts too high and has no AC scaling while the armor wearers do. A rogue gets more dex and a fighter buys better armor. A wizard will almost always be stuck with their same AC their whole career. So the solution here is to reduce the AC which is way too high to start and let it scale like all spells do.
    Also keep in mind that a Wizard has equivalent AC to a heavy armor class at level 1 if they have +3 dex (they probably should).

    After typing the above I've remembered that I redid the armor in my system to correct this problem. 13+dex (max 4) on force armor solves the problem when using that system. I'll make that change.
    In your system, a 1st level Rogue can get starting equipment of leather armor(12+Dex), a rapier/shortsword/shortbow/daggers. Assuming a Str 10/Dex 16, it has AC 15, does 1d8+3 damage on a hit in melee, 1d6+3 using a shortbow, and if it has advantage, +1d6 it can use 1/turn.
    A wizard(Str 10, Dex 16) starting equipment is no armor(10+Dex) AC 13 and a staff, doing 1d8+0, or something like a dagger for 1d4+3. Lets say it has a damage only cantrip like Firebolt, doing 1d8(no mod) damage as well. It has 1 mana(or 2 mana in your current version, but the equivalent is one 1st level spell) per short rest.

    They start their adventuring day, and the wizard wants better protection, so casts Force Armor/Mage Armor. That's it. He's tapped out until he uses one of his two short rests for the day, and it now only lasts 4hrs, so he'll need to recast it before the days out. The rogue is still at full strength with his AC 15, higher normal damage, significantly higher with sneak attack.
    Even in RAW, the Rogues 11+3 AC wearing leather armor is constant, costing no resources - he's always at full strength. A wizard in RAW has to use 1/3 his daily resources for mage armor. In your short rest system, its all of his first short rest resources, but still 1/3 his daily resources(using 2 short rests). In your theme spell version, its more like 2/3 his daily resources for the same 8hrs of armor.

    Limiting Force armor to 13+Dex (Max 4) still feels unnecessary for armor that costs you a resource every day. Armor wearers get it for free, forever. If a wizard uses all their resources, it should beat the rogue, because their damage will be less compared to the rogue, or any other armor wearer. Even a fighter is doing 1d8+3. A wizard can only do more than its 1d8 cantrip if it has a resource to use at level 1. It also has d6 HP, but shouldn't be getting hit as much as you said.

    Considering that use of resource, I personally think 13+Dex for 8hrs is appropriate for 1 mana. Augment 1 mana to make it 24hrs. The AC might not scale up like others, but the percentage cost to your resources gets less as you gain levels, and that is the scaling up/improving part, because it frees up the option to increase it using Force Screen or Shield, but still at significant cost of resources/damage output.

    I hope I explained that ok.
    Last edited by Ugganaut; 2018-04-04 at 08:06 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #190
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Force damage isn't being removed. I'm talking about your earlier desire that telekinetic damage spells are force damage and in the force theme.
    Force damage will remain for spells like magic missile and similar spells, but that is not the same theme as kinetic damage.

    Spoiler: Illustration of force damage
    Show

    That damage will exist. I'll probably take some motivation from Dark Souls to use some of their force spells. A cantrip could exist, possibly even convert magic missile to a cantrip (I've considered it a few times now).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Limiting Force armor to 13+Dex (Max 4) still feels unnecessary for armor that costs you a resource every day.
    Everything costs. A Barbarian/Monk/Sorcerer/Fighter dip for armor from a class feature or physical armor also has a cost. Spells have a cost as well - that is D&D.

    In the current armor system there is a hierarchy of Plate at 18 being the best and everything else at some point below. 13+4 matches that system (see the armor table of my houserules for other armors).

    The scaling isn't perfect across classes, but everything but the monk follows that system I believe. I'll make a table showing that system so the scaling is visible and then we can follow up on where Force Armor fits in that system.

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Force damage isn't being removed. I'm talking about your earlier desire that telekinetic damage spells are force damage and in the force theme.
    Force damage will remain for spells like magic missile and similar spells, but that is not the same theme as kinetic damage.
    That damage will exist. I'll probably take some motivation from Dark Souls to use some of their force spells. A cantrip could exist, possibly even convert magic missile to a cantrip (I've considered it a few times now).
    Ah ok, yes I can see telekinetic damage is different to force. Basically I'm after a force cantrip :)
    Magic Missile as a cantrip. Interesting. Only reason I'd be against it, is cantrips never do half damage on a miss/failed save, and Magic Missile has always been auto-hit, which does less damage than its half damage counterparts. It would feel stronger than other options, but I do like the idea just because its iconic for mages :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Everything costs. A Barbarian/Monk/Sorcerer/Fighter dip for armor from a class feature or physical armor also has a cost. Spells have a cost as well - that is D&D.
    Costs also vary, with all your examples being a once off, and wizards requiring ongoing, which has a massive effect at level 1, using 1/3 normally, or 2/3 in the themed version every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    In the current armor system there is a hierarchy of Plate at 18 being the best and everything else at some point below. 13+4 matches that system (see the armor table of my houserules for other armors).
    The scaling isn't perfect across classes, but everything but the monk follows that system I believe. I'll make a table showing that system so the scaling is visible and then we can follow up on where Force Armor fits in that system.
    The point I failed to make, is the scaling for wizards is not in the AC itself, but in the cost to resources. Personally I'd rather see Force Armor as a cantrip, then you could scale it to fit in with the other classes. I'd never considered that with a short rest mana system(either themed or the old) - until after your first short rest, you have no spells to get AC 15. Not only does it seem unfair, but its certainly less fun to play. If you don't cast it, so you have 1 spell each short rest to do anything else, you have AC 12, and 6+Con HP. No other class seems so weak.
    Last edited by Ugganaut; 2018-04-05 at 03:21 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #192
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Costs also vary, with all your examples being a once off, and wizards requiring ongoing, which has a massive effect at level 1, using 1/3 normally, or 2/3 in the themed version every day.

    The point I failed to make, is the scaling for wizards is not in the AC itself, but in the cost to resources. Personally I'd rather see Force Armor as a cantrip, then you could scale it to fit in with the other classes. I'd never considered that with a short rest mana system(either themed or the old) - until after your first short rest, you have no spells to get AC 15. Not only does it seem unfair, but its certainly less fun to play. If you don't cast it, so you have 1 spell each short rest to do anything else, you have AC 12, and 6+Con HP. No other class seems so weak.
    The approach you're talking about (removing all cost for armor for wizard) is not a productive approach. It's equivalent of giving the Wizard armor proficiency. The Wizard doesn't have armor proficiency and its defenses come at a cost because the Wizard has historically has benefits in other places. That won't change as the Wizard will have the ability to swap out spells on a long rest.
    Giving the Wizard the benefits of its class while also providing standard AC makes it the premiere choice for casters - a significant step above other options. Wizard defenses should always come at a cost.

    Their armor should match the armor system and the cost should be a fair cost, but a cantrip is not a fair cost at all.

  13. - Top - End - #193
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Still costs you a cantrip slot, but maybe something in the middle. I just think the themed cost is to high.
    5e Warlocks at least get the option to take it as an Invocation. Maybe a talent option?

    I don't play wizards in 5e, they are just to weak early on. Worst HP, AC, and their very costly spellbook is vulnerable to theft or damage. They always have been like that, but now there are more caster options that don't have as many weaknesses imo. The mage armor tax is just a saw point for me I guess, even more so with the short rest mana. Not being able to cast another spell until you use one of two short rests is boring. Maybe it's fine, just not the class for me

  14. - Top - End - #194
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    5e Warlocks at least get the option to take it as an Invocation. Maybe a talent option?
    Armor of Shadows as a talent in my system sounds like a good option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    I don't play wizards in 5e, they are just to weak early on. Worst HP, AC, and their very costly spellbook is vulnerable to theft or damage. They always have been like that, but now there are more caster options that don't have as many weaknesses imo. The mage armor tax is just a saw point for me I guess, even more so with the short rest mana. Not being able to cast another spell until you use one of two short rests is boring. Maybe it's fine, just not the class for me
    The cost isn't more for short rest mana - the spell lasts just as long and the mana is just divided by 3 so it's not more costly. Other classes don't have many resources in the short rest system either. If a Wizard is out of mana from Force Armor then a Sorcerer will be out of mana after 1 cast of burning hands.

    It does sound like it's not the right class for you. It isn't for me either - I much prefer the Sorcerer or Psion due to the spellbook. But many prefer the spellbook and the mechanics that come with it.

  15. - Top - End - #195
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Armor of Shadows as a talent in my system sounds like a good option.
    Agreed, I think that would be a solid option.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    The cost isn't more for short rest mana - the spell lasts just as long and the mana is just divided by 3 so it's not more costly. Other classes don't have many resources in the short rest system either. If a Wizard is out of mana from Force Armor then a Sorcerer will be out of mana after 1 cast of burning hands.
    It felt like it cost more, because with one casting, it lasts 4hrs instead of 8hrs. So you'd have to cast twice a day at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    It does sound like it's not the right class for you. It isn't for me either - I much prefer the Sorcerer or Psion due to the spellbook. But many prefer the spellbook and the mechanics that come with it.
    Agreed, was just talking with K, and I was saying it boils down to spellbooks, I hate them. Wizards main pro is supposed to be versatility, but its more "versatility with notice". Prepared and Known spells are about the same number, and some spells you'd never choose unless you knew in advance you'd need it. But some people do like the spellbook stereotype. I wish for their sake it didn't feel so weak at lower levels. At least quicken cantrip feature helps them out in your system.

  16. - Top - End - #196
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    It felt like it cost more, because with one casting, it lasts 4hrs instead of 8hrs. So you'd have to cast twice a day at least.
    I hadn't considered that when I converted the duration. I'll look at extending that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Agreed, was just talking with K, and I was saying it boils down to spellbooks, I hate them. Wizards main pro is supposed to be versatility, but its more "versatility with notice". Prepared and Known spells are about the same number, and some spells you'd never choose unless you knew in advance you'd need it. But some people do like the spellbook stereotype. I wish for their sake it didn't feel so weak at lower levels. At least quicken cantrip feature helps them out in your system.
    Agreed about "versatility with notice". I've always found that too limiting to enjoy. I think I'll add an option to change a few spells on a short rest and more on a long rest (not all).

    I don't think a Wizard is weak at lower levels. It's quite strong even then with things like mana recovery on a short rest. Wizard will be gutted by the loss of schools though, so I'll have to work out their subclasses.
    Last edited by Kryx; 2018-04-05 at 10:36 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #197
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Was talking with K about this:
    "Whenever a caster learns a new spell the spell must be from a theme they already know.
    Alternatively, a caster can forgo learning a new spell to learn a new theme and one cantrip of their choice from any theme they know."

    I'm assuming a Sorcerer might start with 1(related to Origin), maybe 2. Wizard similar, 1 plus their specialization. They could easily use their spell known going up a level to get access to a new theme, because they can learn new spells outside of that, by buying or finding them. For Sorcerer, that choice is much harder, giving up a known spell for access to another theme.
    Only issue there, is wizards would end up with a lot of cantrips. Not sure thats a bad thing, but its more than usual.
    Interested to see how the classes fit into the new magic system. Balancing spells known with themes known might be challenging. To few themes for any class, and it can get a bit monotonous.

    I think a wizard able to change even 1 spell during a short rest, and Int number during a long would be enough. You come to the top of a massive cliff, you take a 5min rest to replace Magic Missile with Feather Fall and off you go. Allows you to adapt to a situation more easily, highlighting the wizards strength over a sorcerer.

  18. - Top - End - #198
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Was talking with K about this:
    "Whenever a caster learns a new spell the spell must be from a theme they already know.
    Alternatively, a caster can forgo learning a new spell to learn a new theme and one cantrip of their choice from any theme they know."

    I'm assuming a Sorcerer might start with 1(related to Origin), maybe 2. Wizard similar, 1 plus their specialization. They could easily use their spell known going up a level to get access to a new theme, because they can learn new spells outside of that, by buying or finding them. For Sorcerer, that choice is much harder, giving up a known spell for access to another theme.
    Only issue there, is wizards would end up with a lot of cantrips. Not sure thats a bad thing, but its more than usual.
    Interested to see how the classes fit into the new magic system. Balancing spells known with themes known might be challenging. To few themes for any class, and it can get a bit monotonous.
    All classes will have spells known, including the Mage, Acolyte, and Naturalist.
    • The Naturalist will swap completely and will not have any special abilities - at least that's my plan.
    • The Acolyte, due to their divine connection, will be able to change a set amount of spells known on rests (that is effectively what prepared spells are, but this way is far simpler).
    • The Mage, due to their spellbook, will be able to change a set amount of spells known on rests. Their spellbook will add new spells on level and when they buy them, but they will still know the exact same amount of spells known as a Sorcerer, but will be able to change X amount on each rest. To swap to a new spell the spell must be of a theme they know. If they don't know the theme then they'll have to swap multiple spells. It should all work out in that regard.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    I think a wizard able to change even 1 spell during a short rest, and Int number during a long would be enough. You come to the top of a massive cliff, you take a 5min rest to replace Magic Missile with Feather Fall and off you go. Allows you to adapt to a situation more easily, highlighting the wizards strength over a sorcerer.
    Agreed that those numbers are similar to the level I'm looking at. 1 or half prof per short rest and proficiency bonus per long rest.

  19. - Top - End - #199
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Changelog to Thematic spells:

    General
    • Minor adjustments to some damage spells

    Frost
    • Added Blizzard

    Earth
    • Rock Shield renamed Earthen Bulwark

    Force
    • Added a myriad of force spells flavored on them always hitting like Magic Missile and based on some Dark Souls spells. Magic Beam is a cantrip, Magic Hail and Magic Spear using 2 mana, and Homing Magic Motes using 3 mana
    • Force Armor renamed Magic Armor. I made a preliminary Armor Comparison spreadsheet where 13+4 fits the current system.
    • Force Screen renamed Shield of Magic
    • Force Sword renamed Magic Sword
    • Shield renamed Magic Barrier
    • Magic Weapon moved from Arcane

    Life
    • Restored Healing Word

    Storm
    • Reworked Storm of Vengeance a bit.


    I'm done with Undeath besides summoning spells. Summoning spells are calculated as incredibly strong via my spreadsheet so I spent some time tweaking some values to get the values a bit more accurate, but the values are still high. I'll need to map out several summoning spells before I can tackle any themes with summons in them.

  20. - Top - End - #200
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Not sure what you have against the word Force :)
    Personally I prefer Shield due to its iconic nature, and Force Screen. The version I just refreshed has two spells called Magic Barrier, Shield and the Stoneskin type one.

    I'm against any cantrip doing half damage on a save, or just auto-damage.
    At top tier, Magic Beam does 4d6. Frostbite does 4d8+Disadvantage, save for nothing. You'd want to desperately want to impose disadvantage to risk that auto-damage. If you're fighting some solo monster, with good saves and high AC, you'd never consider using anything else.

    But if you are going to use Magic Beam, why not just make Magic Missile a cantrip, 1/tier? At top tier, wizards could pump out 8 per round with quicken cantrip.

  21. - Top - End - #201
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    Not sure what you have against the word Force :)
    Personally I prefer Shield due to its iconic nature, and Force Screen. The version I just refreshed has two spells called Magic Barrier, Shield and the Stoneskin type one.
    Names should match their flavor. There are two types of shield currently: Shield of Faith/Shield of Magic: +2 ac for a while. Gale Cloak, Earthen Bulwark, Magic Barrier, Ice Armor, Shadow Cloak, and Wave Shield. Those are reactions that give some AC. Their names should be consistent so "Shield of Faith" being different from "Shield" doesn't work so well when the theme with "Shield" also has a similar feature to "Shield of Faith".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    I'm against any cantrip doing half damage on a save, or just auto-damage.
    At top tier, Magic Beam does 4d6. Frostbite does 4d8+Disadvantage, save for nothing. You'd want to desperately want to impose disadvantage to risk that auto-damage. If you're fighting some solo monster, with good saves and high AC, you'd never consider using anything else.
    I appreciate the feedback, but your feedback sometimes misses the math of the issue and goes off gut feeling.

    Corrosive Touch will do 5.5*.65=3.575. It can crit so 3.575*1.05 = 3.9375, but at a range of touch so 3.9375*.9 = 3.54
    Fire Bolt will do 4.5*.65=2.925. It can crit so 2.925*1.05 = 3.07125. It has a range of 120 feet. so 3.07125*1.1 = 3.38
    Frostbite will do 4.5*.55=2.475, but when it hits it also provides disadvantage which is a modifier of .2635. 2.475*1.2635 = 3.13
    Magic Beam will do 3.5 damage.

    You can see more math on the Cantrips tab of the Spell Themes Balance spreadsheet. Magic Beam is slightly on the high side for cantrips, but it's within the tolerance for variance that I've created. I'll try for more alignment in the damage numbers as I get further in the project, but it's quite ok right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    But if you are going to use Magic Beam, why not just make Magic Missile a cantrip, 1/tier? At top tier, wizards could pump out 8 per round with quicken cantrip.
    The two spells are quite different flavors and mechanics. Magic Beam is 1 beam while Magic Missile is multiple. Magic Beam is 1 creature while Magic Missile can be many. It's like comparing Fire Bolt and Scorching Ray: They are quite different spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    At top tier, wizards could pump out 8 per round with quicken cantrip.
    Quicken Cantrip will likely be changed to allow a normal spell, but not 2x cantrips anymore. This have several benefits, one of which is that low mana spells still are viable options.



    I've questioned if these spells fit in the Force theme and I'm still unsure. Perhaps they belong better with spells like Detect Magic, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Antimagic field, etc as all of these spells are dealing with the raw forces of magic. That's likely the approach I'll take.

  22. - Top - End - #202
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    Names should match their flavor. There are two types of shield currently: Shield of Faith/Shield of Magic: +2 ac for a while. Gale Cloak, Earthen Bulwark, Magic Barrier, Ice Armor, Shadow Cloak, and Wave Shield. Those are reactions that give some AC. Their names should be consistent so "Shield of Faith" being different from "Shield" doesn't work so well when the theme with "Shield" also has a similar feature to "Shield of Faith".
    I just thought if you're making up the names of these spells, maybe leave the iconic ones as they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    I appreciate the feedback, but your feedback sometimes misses the math of the issue and goes off gut feeling.
    True. Often, not sometimes :P I've tried looking at your spreadsheets, makes no sense to me. I didn't understand how 4d6 auto-damage(Magic Beam) was roughly equivalent to 4d8 damage(Firebolt).
    "Fire Bolt will do 4.5*.65=2.925. It can crit so 2.925*1.05 = 3.07125. It has a range of 120 feet. so 3.07125*1.1 = 3.38"
    It looks like you've assigned value to range, which makes sense, but how you come up with numbers like that is baffling to me. Sorry you have to deal with my mathematic ineptitude :)
    The other issue I was referring to was design. There are a total of zero cantrips in official material that have auto-damage or half damage. I don't know why they avoided them, but I assume there is some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryx View Post
    The two spells are quite different flavors and mechanics. Magic Beam is 1 beam while Magic Missile is multiple. Magic Beam is 1 creature while Magic Missile can be many. It's like comparing Fire Bolt and Scorching Ray: They are quite different spells.
    True.

  23. - Top - End - #203
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    I just thought if you're making up the names of these spells, maybe leave the iconic ones as they are.
    I was unaware that Shield was iconic, but looking at http://pandaria.rpgworlds.info/cant/...lls.htm#Shield it seems that you're right. I'll change it back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    True. Often, not sometimes :P I've tried looking at your spreadsheets, makes no sense to me. I didn't understand how 4d6 auto-damage(Magic Beam) was roughly equivalent to 4d8 damage(Firebolt).
    "Fire Bolt will do 4.5*.65=2.925. It can crit so 2.925*1.05 = 3.07125. It has a range of 120 feet. so 3.07125*1.1 = 3.38"
    It looks like you've assigned value to range, which makes sense, but how you come up with numbers like that is baffling to me. Sorry you have to deal with my mathematic ineptitude :)
    The raw damage values are not equivalent.
    Fire Bolt does 4.5 damage with a 65% chance. 4.5*.65=2.925. It can crit so 2.925*1.05 = 3.07125
    Magic Beam does 3.5

    Without any further modifiers Magic Beam is better than Fire Bolt. But you also have to consider the other elements of the cantrip in terms of balance. Range, for example, helps Fire Bolt out as 120 range is quite significant. I've placed that modifier as improving the damage by 10%, so 3.38 damage vs Magic Beam's 3.5. It's pretty close. The range modifier is something I've chosen based off feel. 10% is equivalent of "1/10 rounds I couldn't get in range for a Magic Beam, but I could get in range for a Fire Bolt." I expect the value is higher than that, but it's hard to say.
    We also have to consider that a creature may have low AC. A Fire Bolt vs a Zombie for example would be about 4 damage on average. A Fire Bolt vs a plate+shield would be less. It's hard to math out all scenarios, but the goal is for each cantrip/spell to at least have a niche where it is the best choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    The other issue I was referring to was design. There are a total of zero cantrips in official material that have auto-damage or half damage. I don't know why they avoided them, but I assume there is some reason.
    Cantrips can do half damage on a save from the evocation Wizard subclass. I don't think it's something we should necessarily avoid. If so then I'd say that this raw magic damage type shouldn't have a cantrip.

  24. - Top - End - #204
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    A bolt made of energy and hurled doesn't fit the Force theme?

    Wow that link, that's some old stuff there :)

  25. - Top - End - #205
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugganaut View Post
    A bolt made of energy and hurled doesn't fit the Force theme?
    Looks like my idea of force is wrong:
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB 196
    Force is pure magical energy focused into a damaging form. Most effects that deal force damage are spells, including magic missile and spiritual weapon.
    See https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...geoning-damage for more details.

    I'll need to read a bit more to decide where the divide (if any) is between Force and Arcane.

  26. - Top - End - #206
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Interesting. Never really thought about the differences like that.

  27. - Top - End - #207
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Changelog to Thematic spells:

    Alteration
    • Added the Alteration theme

    Divination
    • Added the Divination theme

    Divine
    • Spiritual Weapon changed to Radiant/Necrotic

    Force
    • Added a description matching that on PHB 197 to clarify Force spells.
    • Renamed spells: Force Beam, Mage Armor, Force Barrier, Shield, Force Spear, Magic Weapon, Force Hand, Homing Motes, Second Skin

    Time
    • Past Impressions moved to Divination

  28. - Top - End - #208
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Changelog to Thematic spells:

    Beast
    • Added Locate Animals
    • Added Awaken Beast

    Divine
    • Destructive Wave added

    Nature
    • Added the Nature theme

    Plants
    • Added the Plants theme (TODO for animate plants)

    Telekinesis
    • Added the Telekinesis theme

    Undeath
    • Added the Undeath theme (TODO for animate dead / create undead / danse macabre)


    TODO: Consider merging Animal Companion / Conjure Animals / Animate Beast. Temporary version (Conjure Animals) and long term version (Animal Companion/Animate Beast). Do the same for Plants.

  29. - Top - End - #209
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kryx's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    Changelog to Thematic spells:

    General
    • Added Immunity to "Protection from ___" spells as an augment option
    • Adjusted some cantrips

    Alteration
    • Added metabolism spells: Metabolic Recovery, Vigor, Sustenance, Metabolic Adaptation, and Metabolic Regeneration

    Arcane
    • Added Find Familiar
    • Added Magic Circle
    • Private Sanctum moved to Protection

    Chaos
    • Added the Chaos theme

    Charm
    • Added the Charm theme

    Divination
    • Added Metafaculty

    Divine
    • Added Ceremony
    • Find Steed

    Ectoplasm
    • Added the Ectoplasm theme

    Fate
    • Added the Fate theme

    Illusion
    • Added Phantom Steed
    • Added Simulacrum

    Nature
    • Added Snare

    Planes
    • Added the Planes theme

    Protection
    • Added the Protection theme


    Still TODO:
    1. Add Mind theme (split into 2 if possible)
    2. Calculate summon spells
    3. List "Unthemed spells" as their own theme
    4. Add spells inspired by 5e mystic disciplines
    5. Cleanup
    6. Modify classes and subclasses

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

    How's the project going?
    Have you started on the classes using the new theme spells?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •