An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower

[Gnoman]

Spoiler

Show

Maybe? It's hard to tell, because I don't think we ever get a Lanfear POV section, but I got the impression she was a little obsessed with Lews Therin even before all the stuff about the Dragon and the Dark one happened. Discovering that he is not just the only (rich, famous) man who ever rejected her, but an actual Hero of Prophecy certainly made that worse.

On the other hand, she's also extremely ambitious in her own right. Even at her most stalkerish, her life never completely revolved around him. Give her a choice between Lews Therin and Ultimate Power(tm), and I think she'll pick the latter every time.

(Well. First she'll try to figure out if there's a way to cheat and have both. But if it comes down to one or the other...)

Spoiler

Show

She never got a third name (which was a mark of distinction in the Age Of Legends) - she was Mierin Eronaile in contrast to Lews Therin Telamon, Elan Morin Tedronai (Ishamael) or Barid Bel Medar (Demandred), and Lews Therin left her because he believed that she didn't love him but instead loved his glory reflected on her. Her motivation was recognition, acclaim, and power - note that she is the only one of the Forsaken who chose her own new name.

[snowblizz]

Spoiler

Show

She never got a third name (which was a mark of distinction in the Age Of Legends) - she was Mierin Eronaile in contrast to Lews Therin Telamon, Elan Morin Tedronai (Ishamael) or Barid Bel Medar (Demandred), and Lews Therin left her because he believed that she didn't love him but instead loved his glory reflected on her. Her motivation was recognition, acclaim, and power - note that she is the only one of the Forsaken who chose her own new name.

Spoiler

Show

And I think it is made clear somewhere she wants Rand because she wants the glory but this time with *her* in charge. Sort of having his (*LTT's) power at her disposal too. That said, I think Lanfear to some degree fits the envious mold. They do say, and shedoes react, to Rand's girls in a very possession way. And one could certainly argue that any power Lanfear does not possess is making her "feel like number two". Up to an including, I suspect, the DO.

[Flying Turtle]

Lews Therin is basically defined as "best at everything" so most of them hating him for it seems reasonable.

Best caster. Best general. Best Go player. Best sword fighter (why would casters even use swords??)

Also had the best looking girlfriends and was the most famous.

Spoiler

Show

Lews Therin wasn’t actually all that great of a general. It was his bad plan, which he insisted on over the objections of every female Aes Sedai, that led to the taint on Saidin. I also seem to remember the Forsaken mentioning he was a bad strategist. I’d say that’s just losers whining except their criticisms of him being blunt and overly straight forward ring true for Rand and Lews’s confirmed failure that led to the above mentioned taint.

Of course when you are the most powerful channeler in the world, you usually can get away with just bulldozing your way through battles.

Both Demandred and fully fused with Lews Therin Rand admit Demandred was the better strategist but Lews got the job of general because he was the strongest. That was the final straw for Demandred. He lost to Lews in channeling, swordsmanship, and in Ilyena’s heart but in strategy he blew Lews out of the water. And they still made Lews general. Ouch.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler

Show

I don't think there was a better plan, though. No one in the AOL has access to the TP, which you need to seal the DO properly.

[Flying Turtle]

Spoiler

Show

I don't think there was a better plan, though. No one in the AOL has access to the TP, which you need to seal the DO properly.

Spoiler

Show

You know that and I know that but Lews Therin didn’t. He honestly believed his strategy would work fine and had no idea the taint and the breaking of the world were going to happen. And given that roughly half the Aes Sedai opposed his plan it is clear he had reason to doubt.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

Show

You know that and I know that but Lews Therin didn’t. He honestly believed his strategy would work fine and had no idea the taint and the breaking of the world were going to happen. And given that roughly half the Aes Sedai opposed his plan it is clear he had reason to doubt.

Spoiler

Show

The other plan was to utilize a doomsday weapon that would make someone capable of destroying reality, and then hoping it doesn't get used nefariously. "I sure how giving one person unlimited power works out" is not a historically successful strategy. I don't think they could beat the Dark One that way anyway, it would be like making an additional Dark One for the sake of beating the first and then not actually beating them.

[Traab]

Spoiler

Show

The other plan was to utilize a doomsday weapon that would make someone capable of destroying reality, and then hoping it doesn't get used nefariously. "I sure how giving one person unlimited power works out" is not a historically successful strategy. I don't think they could beat the Dark One that way anyway, it would be like making an additional Dark One for the sake of beating the first and then not actually beating them.

Which would fit very well into the cycle of ages. One falls, another rises. The cycle continues.

[Tvtyrant]

Which would fit very well into the cycle of ages. One falls, another rises. The cycle continues.

Spoiler

Show

The Chodan Kal were strong enough to wipe out the planet. Rand specifically considers wiping out the planet and with it the cycle, they were a bad choice.

[Flying Turtle]

Spoiler

Show

The other plan was to utilize a doomsday weapon that would make someone capable of destroying reality, and then hoping it doesn't get used nefariously. "I sure how giving one person unlimited power works out" is not a historically successful strategy. I don't think they could beat the Dark One that way anyway, it would be like making an additional Dark One for the sake of beating the first and then not actually beating them.

Spoiler

Show

My point is not that they had a better option. My point was that Lews Therin picked the best option for the wrong reasons. He thought he could brute force his way to victory and everything would be fine. He had no idea the consequences of his action and given that half the Aes Sedai of the world disagreed with him, he had reason to suspect that there were going to be problems, but he didn’t. You’re right that it was the best choice but coming to the correct choice for the wrong reasons does not reflect well on Lews Therin as a leader.

[Thomas Cardew]

Spoiler

Show

Lews Therin wasn’t actually all that great of a general. It was his bad plan, which he insisted on over the objections of every female Aes Sedai, that led to the taint on Saidin. I also seem to remember the Forsaken mentioning he was a bad strategist. I’d say that’s just losers whining except their criticisms of him being blunt and overly straight forward ring true for Rand and Lews’s confirmed failure that led to the above mentioned taint.

Of course when you are the most powerful channeler in the world, you usually can get away with just bulldozing your way through battles.

Both Demandred and fully fused with Lews Therin Rand admit Demandred was the better strategist but Lews got the job of general because he was the strongest. That was the final straw for Demandred. He lost to Lews in channeling, swordsmanship, and in Ilyena’s heart but in strategy he blew Lews out of the water. And they still made Lews general. Ouch.

Spoiler

Show

" Of course when you are the most powerful channeler in the world, you usually can get away with just bulldozing your way through battles. "

I don't quite think that's fair, especially in the Age of Power with Angreal, Sar'Angreal, and Circles everywhere raw power mattered less than ability. The war was essentially lost at that point. Overall they had been consistently losing. The only alternative plan was giant super-weapons, the Choden Kal, to which Team Light had just lost access. The key workshop and keys had just been captured by the Shadow before he launched his raid. It was literally only a matter of time until the dark found the keys/released what they had. Also, his bad plan ... won a lost war.

My takeaway that LTT was a good tactician, he could win battles against any of the shadow's generals. He might not win every battle against the Shadow, but he could match them. But he couldn't be everywhere. And his abrasive personality / 'I'm just Better than you' attitude, resulted in his most capable commanders joining the Shadow. The result was he could win the battles he was at, but his forces lost the ones he wasn't commanding: a sort of Hannibal situation. (Not really, it's a weak analogy but hopefully it makes sense.)

[Thomas Cardew]

Spoiler

Show

You know that and I know that but Lews Therin didn’t. He honestly believed his strategy would work fine and had no idea the taint and the breaking of the world were going to happen. And given that roughly half the Aes Sedai opposed his plan it is clear he had reason to doubt.

Spoiler

Show

None of the Aes Sedai had any idea that the taint would happen. The objections were because they didn't think it would work to reseal it due to the precision required. Their plan was use Unlimited Power to win the war. Then seal the Dark One with the power when they weren't in the middle of battle.

[Misery Esquire]

Spoiler

Show

The Chodan Kal were strong enough to wipe out the planet. Rand specifically considers wiping out the planet and with it the cycle, they were a bad choice.

Spoiler

Show

Which is/was what the DO supposedly wanted (though it still doesn't sound right to me).

Heroes : We'll blow up the world to save it from you!
Dark One : You'll... Yes. Do that. Yes, you've found my weakness. My only weakness. Planetary destruction.
Heroes : Uh. Maybe we...
Lews Therin : LEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOY JEEEEEEN-
Heroes & DO : !@?$.

[Flying Turtle]

Spoiler

Show

" Of course when you are the most powerful channeler in the world, you usually can get away with just bulldozing your way through battles. "

I don't quite think that's fair, especially in the Age of Power with Angreal, Sar'Angreal, and Circles everywhere raw power mattered less than ability. The war was essentially lost at that point. Overall they had been consistently losing. The only alternative plan was giant super-weapons, the Choden Kal, to which Team Light had just lost access. The key workshop and keys had just been captured by the Shadow before he launched his raid. It was literally only a matter of time until the dark found the keys/released what they had. Also, his bad plan ... won a lost war.

My takeaway that LTT was a good tactician, he could win battles against any of the shadow's generals. He might not win every battle against the Shadow, but he could match them. But he couldn't be everywhere. And his abrasive personality / 'I'm just Better than you' attitude, resulted in his most capable commanders joining the Shadow. The result was he could win the battles he was at, but his forces lost the ones he wasn't commanding: a sort of Hannibal situation. (Not really, it's a weak analogy but hopefully it makes sense.)

Spoiler

Show

That's actually a stellar argument against Lews Therin. He had the strength advantage and yet spent most of the war losing. Doesn't that suggest that he was the less skillful party? Especially since his side had the resources to build the most powerful Sar Angreal in history. Furthermore, the Dark One deliberately sowed distrust and competition among his followers, meaning they weren't likely to use Circles.* His side had every strength advantage and they still consistently lost. That's... not a good sign.

*(Side question: Did we ever see the Forsaken use a Circle? The lower Darkfriends did when they were corrupting people with the Fades but other than that I'm blanking. I feel like M'Hael might have with some of his underlings in the final battle? Is that right?)

Spoiler

Show

None of the Aes Sedai had any idea that the taint would happen. The objections were because they didn't think it would work to reseal it due to the precision required. Their plan was use Unlimited Power to win the war. Then seal the Dark One with the power when they weren't in the middle of battle.

Spoiler

Show

Fair enough, but the fact that their objection was that his plan lacks precision is still evidence that he relied on brute force for his plans and didn't pick that plan because he realized it was their best option.

Also keep in mind that he passed his skills and mannerisms on to Rand. Rand developed his habits like rubbing his earlobe and humming around woman and he received both his artistic skill and his channeling skill, that's why he spontaneously developed artistic ability he didn't have previously and spontaneously learned new weaves. It stands to reason that he also inherited his strategic skill. And what is Rand's go to plan? Usually just to start blasting. Sometimes with Balefire. Sometimes by making it rain lightning. Sometimes with a flurry of death gates and other weaves. But whatever it is, brute force is the underlying principle of his strategy. We can cut him a lot of slack due to the taint driving him insane, but it doesn't look like there was much strategy there to begin with for the taint to disrupt.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

Show

Well, Demandred seems pretty convinced that Lews Therin is a great strategist. He's convinced he's at the final battle because he can't believe that anyone besides Lews Therin could match him in strategy. Granted, the actual strategy used by the Light in the final battle is mind-bogglingly stupid, ("let's group up and wait to be surrounded in an open field instead of using our superior mobility, or one of the many literally impenetrable magical fortresses we own!") but that's more of a Sanderson limitation. We're supposed to believe the characters are competent. Demandred explicitly believes that Lews Therin is a very competent general. To the point where he's obsessed with beating him on the field.

[Thomas Cardew]

Spoiler

Show

That's actually a stellar argument against Lews Therin. He had the strength advantage and yet spent most of the war losing. Doesn't that suggest that he was the less skillful party? Especially since his side had the resources to build the most powerful Sar Angreal in history. Furthermore, the Dark One deliberately sowed distrust and competition among his followers, meaning they weren't likely to use Circles.* His side had every strength advantage and they still consistently lost. That's... not a good sign.

*(Side question: Did we ever see the Forsaken use a Circle? The lower Darkfriends did when they were corrupting people with the Fades but other than that I'm blanking. I feel like M'Hael might have with some of his underlings in the final battle? Is that right?)

Spoiler

Show

He didn't have a strength advantage...? Other than his personal strength in the power, which I just sorta covered as less relevant... The armies of the light were consistently outnumbered in the war of power. They got blindsided by the opening of the war losing huge amounts of territory and resources, recovered, regained some territory, got into a war of attrition, while having to maintain civilian expectations of a utopia against an enemy that didn't have to worry about starving its slaves. A no point did they have massive advantage. The building the Choden Kal was sort of like the popular conception of WW2 Germany building V2 Rockets, a significant diversion of resources in a long shot attempt to win the war that ultimately had only negative effects.

Spoiler

Show

Relying on the wiki for an abbreviated history. The Dark One gets released, 100 year process of societal upheaval and decay starts as the DO influence grows. Dark friends start to declare and war starts with human dark-friend armies launching essentially surprise assaults on civilians, wins a lot quickly. Light side starts to fight back and it reaches a war of attrition. Channelers are consistently joining the dark side including the 13 forsaken but lots of others. Aginor starts making monsters which become the Shadow's armies. LTT gets made supreme commander. Light starts retaking territory, but the Shadow starts massacring civilians and essentially destroying cities it loses. Shadowspawn numbers and the cost of rehabilitating liberated territory bleed the Light in a war of attrition. Shadow starts winning again. "An army of generals. That is why we nearly lost. That is what left us with the taint, the Breaking, the madness. I was as guilty of it as anyone. Perhaps the most guilty." Light side splits into two camps on last ditch efforts to win the war, 1 wants super weapons, 2 wants to seal the bore. They decided to use super weapons. They make superweapons. They make keys to super-weapons to safely use them, but Sammael takes the city where they made the keys, but he doesn't know about them. Light argues about whether to to try to retake the keys or LTT plan, meanwhile 3 prong Shadow offense begins. If any of these succeed, the war ends in months. LTT decides to launch his raid with only men, succeeds in sealing the DO and 13 high ranking Shadow officers. DO taints Saidin and the breaking starts.

Not in the books, they didn't trust each other enough to link with each other when they were the only 13 'Chosen'. They did in the WoP when there were a lot more 'Chosen' and more dark factions playing games. Maybe Messana/Mog forced some of the Black Ajah to link with them but I can't be sure/ don't remember. Dem leads a linked max circle of his Sharan channelers in the final book.

Spoiler

Show

Fair enough, but the fact that their objection was that his plan lacks precision is still evidence that he relied on brute force for his plans and didn't pick that plan because he realized it was their best option.

Also keep in mind that he passed his skills and mannerisms on to Rand. Rand developed his habits like rubbing his earlobe and humming around woman and he received both his artistic skill and his channeling skill, that's why he spontaneously developed artistic ability he didn't have previously and spontaneously learned new weaves. It stands to reason that he also inherited his strategic skill. And what is Rand's go to plan? Usually just to start blasting. Sometimes with Balefire. Sometimes by making it rain lightning. Sometimes with a flurry of death gates and other weaves. But whatever it is, brute force is the underlying principle of his strategy. We can cut him a lot of slack due to the taint driving him insane, but it doesn't look like there was much strategy there to begin with for the taint to disrupt.

Spoiler

Show

It wasn't that his plan lacked precision. It was that it REQUIRED precision they didn't think was feasible. Sealing the bore had to be done precisely or it would make it worse. The fact that he pulled it off with 80+ channelers working independently is pretty good argument for him being a good tactician but lesser strategist. The point of circles isn't the added power, there's some quotes from Jordan that the net effect of linking is negative, the total amount of power the circle lead can use is less than the net power of channelers independently. The advantage is 1 person leading allows for higher precision than trying to get individuals to mesh. Plus the whole men and women need each other theme.

I don't get your criticism of Rand. You're conflating his abilities as a general to how he handles personal fights. He doesn't command that many battles. In the early books he hadn't integrated and knew enough to let generals run things. In mid-books when he knows enough, his plan against Sammeal and Illian is pretty well thought out and organized. The initial attack on Ebou Dar goes fantastic, the taint/ his invincibility complex makes him over extend. That's about the extent of his plans as a general. As for how he handles non military situations that's a whole different ballgame. And he does lots of strategizing/ scheming/ planning. It's just that blasting bits by far get the most screen time.

Spoiler

Show

Well, Demandred seems pretty convinced that Lews Therin is a great strategist. He's convinced he's at the final battle because he can't believe that anyone besides Lews Therin could match him in strategy. Granted, the actual strategy used by the Light in the final battle is mind-bogglingly stupid, ("let's group up and wait to be surrounded in an open field instead of using our superior mobility, or one of the many literally impenetrable magical fortresses we own!") but that's more of a Sanderson limitation. We're supposed to believe the characters are competent. Demandred explicitly believes that Lews Therin is a very competent general. To the point where he's obsessed with beating him on the field.

Spoiler

Show

Let's be honest. EVERYONE'S tactics in the Last Battle were asinine/ un realistic. My explanation was that Sanderson's understanding of tactics is... cursory at best, and he's more interested in writing clever tricks and individual fight scenes. And I say that as someone who likes Sanderson. But his large scale battles in the Storm light series... aren't great.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

Show

Fantasy writers tend to be bad tacticians anyway, and Sanderson specifically can't lead an army out of a paper bag. Jordan was fascinated with the transition to early modern warfare, using crossbows and casters instead of muskets and cannons exception obviously noted.

Was the warfare great? No. Was it better then Sanderson's imitation of the Illiad? You bet.

[Flying Turtle]

Spoiler

Show

Well, Demandred seems pretty convinced that Lews Therin is a great strategist. He's convinced he's at the final battle because he can't believe that anyone besides Lews Therin could match him in strategy. Granted, the actual strategy used by the Light in the final battle is mind-bogglingly stupid, ("let's group up and wait to be surrounded in an open field instead of using our superior mobility, or one of the many literally impenetrable magical fortresses we own!") but that's more of a Sanderson limitation. We're supposed to believe the characters are competent. Demandred explicitly believes that Lews Therin is a very competent general. To the point where he's obsessed with beating him on the field.

Spoiler

Show

Demandred was very much neck deep in a superior inferiority complex with Lews Therin at that point. That was the narrative point of him assuming he was dealing with Rand. It showed that he was so obsessed with Rand that he just assumed it was him even though it could have easily been someone else, which turned out to be a fatal mistake as he kept assuming 'Rand' was trying to bait him into attacking 'Rand's' command post directly. His judgements on this matter is not meant to be sound.

Spoiler

Show

He didn't have a strength advantage...? Other than his personal strength in the power, which I just sorta covered as less relevant... The armies of the light were consistently outnumbered in the war of power. They got blindsided by the opening of the war losing huge amounts of territory and resources, recovered, regained some territory, got into a war of attrition, while having to maintain civilian expectations of a utopia against an enemy that didn't have to worry about starving its slaves. A no point did they have massive advantage. The building the Choden Kal was sort of like the popular conception of WW2 Germany building V2 Rockets, a significant diversion of resources in a long shot attempt to win the war that ultimately had only negative effects.

Relying on the wiki for an abbreviated history. The Dark One gets released, 100 year process of societal upheaval and decay starts as the DO influence grows. Dark friends start to declare and war starts with human dark-friend armies launching essentially surprise assaults on civilians, wins a lot quickly. Light side starts to fight back and it reaches a war of attrition. Channelers are consistently joining the dark side including the 13 forsaken but lots of others. Aginor starts making monsters which become the Shadow's armies. LTT gets made supreme commander. Light starts retaking territory, but the Shadow starts massacring civilians and essentially destroying cities it loses. Shadowspawn numbers and the cost of rehabilitating liberated territory bleed the Light in a war of attrition. Shadow starts winning again. "An army of generals. That is why we nearly lost. That is what left us with the taint, the Breaking, the madness. I was as guilty of it as anyone. Perhaps the most guilty." Light side splits into two camps on last ditch efforts to win the war, 1 wants super weapons, 2 wants to seal the bore. They decided to use super weapons. They make superweapons. They make keys to super-weapons to safely use them, but Sammael takes the city where they made the keys, but he doesn't know about them. Light argues about whether to to try to retake the keys or LTT plan, meanwhile 3 prong Shadow offense begins. If any of these succeed, the war ends in months. LTT decides to launch his raid with only men, succeeds in sealing the DO and 13 high ranking Shadow officers. DO taints Saidin and the breaking starts.

Spoiler

Show

I'll will concede that I was wrong about him having the strength advantage but not having the strength advantage and losing, while not an indictment of his strategic skill, is also not a credit to his skill. Its just sort of neutral. I'm coming to the conclusion that we don't know enough specifics to make a argument either way about his War of Power performance. For example while they were an army of generals and that definitely hurt them, Lews was still their actual general and part of being a general is making sure your subordinates work together. You could speculate that the 'army of generals' phenomenon was due to his poor leadership. Of course that's speculation because we lack any hard specifics. Was it his fault? Maybe? Maybe not? We do however have specifics for Rand's performance and to a lesser degree his performance at the Bore, both of which I'll address below.

Spoiler

Show

It wasn't that his plan lacked precision. It was that it REQUIRED precision they didn't think was feasible. Sealing the bore had to be done precisely or it would make it worse. The fact that he pulled it off with 80+ channelers working independently is pretty good argument for him being a good tactician but lesser strategist. The point of circles isn't the added power, there's some quotes from Jordan that the net effect of linking is negative, the total amount of power the circle lead can use is less than the net power of channelers independently. The advantage is 1 person leading allows for higher precision than trying to get individuals to mesh. Plus the whole men and women need each other theme.

Spoiler

Show

The fact that he was able to pull it off is absolutely a sign that he's got plenty of precision with channeling but that wasn't my point. My point was that even though his execution was precise, the strategy itself was not. In retrospect a better word than precision would have been sophistication. It was simply him martialing power and throwing it at the problem. Did he throw it with precision. Absolutely. But that doesn't make the plan any less simple and straight forward. Which isn't inherently a bad thing but that seems to be his approach to everything, which is bad.

Spoiler

Show

I don't get your criticism of Rand. You're conflating his abilities as a general to how he handles personal fights. He doesn't command that many battles. In the early books he hadn't integrated and knew enough to let generals run things. In mid-books when he knows enough, his plan against Sammeal and Illian is pretty well thought out and organized. The initial attack on Ebou Dar goes fantastic, the taint/ his invincibility complex makes him over extend. That's about the extent of his plans as a general. As for how he handles non military situations that's a whole different ballgame. And he does lots of strategizing/ scheming/ planning. It's just that blasting bits by far get the most screen time.

Spoiler

Show

Sorry that one's on me for not being clearer. The three examples I vaguely referenced with raining lightning, gates of death, and balefire were: when he led a battle and fried friend and foe alike with lightning until Bashere sat on him, when he led Logain and the Asha'man at Pendaloan Manor and went crazy with the weaves until Logain stopped because he thought Rand was just trying to prove that he was the stronger of the two and Logain didn't think the destruction was necessary, and when he found where Graendal was and rather than plan out an attack with all his resources he just nuked it with balefire, creating a balescream, which he later got chewed out for. The second one in particular is noteworthy because Logain, who knows first hand what the taint is like, still explicitly calls him out on channeling too much of the One Power, not accepting the taint as an excuse.
These are all examples of him failing as a leader because of his brute force approach. Another example that comes to mind is how he ran away from his bodyguards, the Maidens of the Spear, so often that eventually they tied him down and spanked him to teach him how stupid he was always being by running off and trying to solve everything with brute force.
You're right, blasting bits does get the most screen time, but that's because that's Rand's go to strategy. He's suppose to be a leader, but instead of planning of leading he regularly leaves allies and resources behind and tries to force a victory with whatever is on hand. Not unlike Lews Therin at the Bore, when he decided to take matters into his own hands and seal the Bore with just the Hundred Companions for support.

Spoiler

Show

Let's be honest. EVERYONE'S tactics in the Last Battle were asinine/ un realistic. My explanation was that Sanderson's understanding of tactics is... cursory at best, and he's more interested in writing clever tricks and individual fight scenes. And I say that as someone who likes Sanderson. But his large scale battles in the Storm light series... aren't great.

Spoiler

Show

I don't disagree with anything here.

[Thomas Cardew]

Spoiler

Show

Demandred was very much neck deep in a superior inferiority complex with Lews Therin at that point. That was the narrative point of him assuming he was dealing with Rand. It showed that he was so obsessed with Rand that he just assumed it was him even though it could have easily been someone else, which turned out to be a fatal mistake as he kept assuming 'Rand' was trying to bait him into attacking 'Rand's' command post directly. His judgements on this matter is not meant to be sound.

Spoiler

Show

Ah here we go. From the anthology : "Berid Bel quickly became one of the leading, and highest ranking generals in the fight against the Shadow. In a world that had no memory of war and no military, generals had to be created, and the ability to lead in war was found in many places it might not have been suspected. Barid bel had strategic vision and a tactical flair. At last he had found an area where could, if not surpass, at least match Lews Therin. There is reason to believe that Barid Bel thought himself intellectually far superior to Lews Therin, believing him to be an overcautious fool militarily, while he himself was a gambler, willing to play the odds. As a result he was furious when Lews Therin was appointed over him to command the forces opposing the Shadow."
I'm getting more Patton and Montogomery vibes between the two; two competent commanders with different styles who each thinks they're better. And yeah, governments typically pick cautious leaders over gamblers. Sometime that's the right choice, sometimes it's not, but a lot of the incentives reward caution.

Spoiler

Show

For example while they were an army of generals and that definitely hurt them, Lews was still their actual general and part of being a general is making sure your subordinates work together. You could speculate that the 'army of generals' phenomenon was due to his poor leadership. Of course that's speculation because we lack any hard specifics. Was it his fault? Maybe? Maybe not? We do however have specifics for Rand's performance and to a lesser degree his performance at the Bore, both of which I'll address below.

Spoiler

Show

I mean yeah, it's his fault. He recognizes it in that chapter. But that's the point LTT is a tragedy, his hamartia was that he was that he HAD to be best, had to compete, had to be the winner.

Spoiler

Show

The fact that he was able to pull it off is absolutely a sign that he's got plenty of precision with channeling but that wasn't my point. My point was that even though his execution was precise, the strategy itself was not. In retrospect a better word than precision would have been sophistication. It was simply him martialing power and throwing it at the problem. Did he throw it with precision. Absolutely. But that doesn't make the plan any less simple and straight forward. Which isn't inherently a bad thing but that seems to be his approach to everything, which is bad.

Spoiler

Show

Eh. Agree to disagree here. I think building a big superweapon is far less sophisticated strategy. His plan was a decapitation strike at the DO giving the world a chance to return to normal. The raid itself wasn't just a group of channelers diving in, but a full scale military assault of tens of thousands of soldiers that he was leading.

EDIT: Forgot to add Sophistication isn't always a good thing either. The more complicated something is the easier it is fail.

Spoiler

Show

Sorry that one's on me for not being clearer. The three examples I vaguely referenced with raining lightning, gates of death, and balefire were: when he led a battle and fried friend and foe alike with lightning until Bashere sat on him, when he led Logain and the Asha'man at Pendaloan Manor and went crazy with the weaves until Logain stopped because he thought Rand was just trying to prove that he was the stronger of the two and Logain didn't think the destruction was necessary, and when he found where Graendal was and rather than plan out an attack with all his resources he just nuked it with balefire, creating a balescream, which he later got chewed out for. The second one in particular is noteworthy because Logain, who knows first hand what the taint is like, still explicitly calls him out on channeling too much of the One Power, not accepting the taint as an excuse.
These are all examples of him failing as a leader because of his brute force approach. Another example that comes to mind is how he ran away from his bodyguards, the Maidens of the Spear, so often that eventually they tied him down and spanked him to teach him how stupid he was always being by running off and trying to solve everything with brute force.
You're right, blasting bits does get the most screen time, but that's because that's Rand's go to strategy. He's suppose to be a leader, but instead of planning of leading he regularly leaves allies and resources behind and tries to force a victory with whatever is on hand. Not unlike Lews Therin at the Bore, when he decided to take matters into his own hands and seal the Bore with just the Hundred Companions for support.

Spoiler

Show

Again, I don't quite get the criticism. Ebou Dar, sure. He over extends after some initial success because he thinks he's invincible. When he tries to brute force a victory, he loses badly to a combo of the taint/ bowl of the winds weirdness. The second one is explicitly an ambush and the taint. What planning/ strategy was there to do at that point? They were under attack, you eliminate the enemy with force. Planning comes before, or after in response, not during. Also Logain doesn't object to the destruction, he objects because he thinks Rand's holding out on teaching. The drawing too much of the power was a post battle thing and explicitly due to his growing insanity. He's actively contemplating suicide.

Spoiler

Show

“A close run thing,” Logain muttered. “If this had happened before I arrived. . . . A close-run thing.” He gave himself a shake and released the Source, turning away from his glassless window. “Did you intend keeping these new weaves for your favorites, like Taim? Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly.” ....
I want to die, Lews Therin said. I want to join Ilyena.
If you really wanted to die, why did you kill Trollocs? Rand thought. Why kill that Myrddraal? “People will find groups of dead Trollocs and maybe Myrddraal without a mark on them,” he said aloud.
I seem to remember dying, Lews Therin murmured. I remember how I did it. He drew deeper still, and small pains grew in Rand’s temples.
“Not too many in any one place, though. The destination shifts every time a Deathgate opens.” Rand rubbed at his temples. That pain was a warning. He was close to the amount of saidin he could hold without dying or being burnt out. You can’t die yet, he told Lews Therin. We have to reach Tarmon Gai’don or theworld dies.

"A Deathgate,” Logain said, his voice tinged with distaste. “Why are you still holding the Power?” he asked suddenly. “And so much. If you’re trying to show me that you’re stronger than I am, I already know it. I saw how large your . . . your Deathgateswere compared to mine. And I’d say you’re holding every drop of saidin that you can safely.”

As for the Greandel bit, I actually liked that. It was completely a Sanderson moment 'how do you beat someone smarter/stronger than you? You don't you flip the board' The balefire was to demonstrate just how insane he actually was.

[Flying Turtle]

Spoiler

Show

Ah here we go. From the anthology : "Berid Bel quickly became one of the leading, and highest ranking generals in the fight against the Shadow. In a world that had no memory of war and no military, generals had to be created, and the ability to lead in war was found in many places it might not have been suspected. Barid bel had strategic vision and a tactical flair. At last he had found an area where could, if not surpass, at least match Lews Therin. There is reason to believe that Barid Bel thought himself intellectually far superior to Lews Therin, believing him to be an overcautious fool militarily, while he himself was a gambler, willing to play the odds. As a result he was furious when Lews Therin was appointed over him to command the forces opposing the Shadow."
I'm getting more Patton and Montogomery vibes between the two; two competent commanders with different styles who each thinks they're better. And yeah, governments typically pick cautious leaders over gamblers. Sometime that's the right choice, sometimes it's not, but a lot of the incentives reward caution.

Spoiler

Show

I could definitely see that. There was just one line in A Memory of Light where Rand/Lews says that Demandred should have been the Light’s greatest champion which I took to be him admitting Demandred was the superior leader.

Spoiler

Show

I mean yeah, it's his fault. He recognizes it in that chapter. But that's the point LTT is a tragedy, his hamartia was that he was that he HAD to be best, had to compete, had to be the winner.

Spoiler

Show

I’d argue a fault is a fault. Although I will admit that when he saw past this fault, as he did in your Illian example, he was great. I’m just not letting him off the hook for the times he didn’t see past it. Maybe I’m being too harsh.

Spoiler

Show

Eh. Agree to disagree here. I think building a big superweapon is far less sophisticated strategy. His plan was a decapitation strike at the DO giving the world a chance to return to normal. The raid itself wasn't just a group of channelers diving in, but a full scale military assault of tens of thousands of soldiers that he was leading.

Spoiler

Show

Again, I don't quite get the criticism. Ebou Dar, sure. He over extends after some initial success because he thinks he's invincible. When he tries to brute force a victory, he loses badly to a combo of the taint/ bowl of the winds weirdness. The second one is explicitly an ambush and the taint. What planning/ strategy was there to do at that point? They were under attack, you eliminate the enemy with force. Planning comes before, or after in response, not during. Also Logain doesn't object to the destruction, he objects because he thinks Rand's holding out on teaching. The drawing too much of the power was a post battle thing and explicitly due to his growing insanity. He's actively contemplating suicide.

Spoiler

Show

“A close run thing,” Logain muttered. “If this had happened before I arrived. . . . A close-run thing.” He gave himself a shake and released the Source, turning away from his glassless window. “Did you intend keeping these new weaves for your favorites, like Taim? Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly.” ....
I want to die, Lews Therin said. I want to join Ilyena.
If you really wanted to die, why did you kill Trollocs? Rand thought. Why kill that Myrddraal? “People will find groups of dead Trollocs and maybe Myrddraal without a mark on them,” he said aloud.
I seem to remember dying, Lews Therin murmured. I remember how I did it. He drew deeper still, and small pains grew in Rand’s temples.
“Not too many in any one place, though. The destination shifts every time a Deathgate opens.” Rand rubbed at his temples. That pain was a warning. He was close to the amount of saidin he could hold without dying or being burnt out. You can’t die yet, he told Lews Therin. We have to reach Tarmon Gai’don or theworld dies.

"A Deathgate,” Logain said, his voice tinged with distaste. “Why are you still holding the Power?” he asked suddenly. “And so much. If you’re trying to show me that you’re stronger than I am, I already know it. I saw how large your . . . your Deathgateswere compared to mine. And I’d say you’re holding every drop of saidin that you can safely.”

As for the Greandel bit, I actually liked that. It was completely a Sanderson moment 'how do you beat someone smarter/stronger than you? You don't you flip the board' The balefire was to demonstrate just how insane he actually was.

Spoiler

Show

I wasn’t expecting planning per say in the ambush but more direction for his troops to ensure everyone’s properly positioned/ coordinated. Then the blasting can begin in earnest.

Also I read the balefire less as a direct effect of his insanity and more him giving into insanity not even trying to fight it or think things through. Admittedly that is an exceptionally blurry line.

You’ve definitely convinced me that I wasn’t giving him enough credit for his leadership skills but I do stand by that he does have several hang ups and tendencies that interfere with those skills in major ways that prevent him from being the best.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler

Show

It's very difficult to know what a good strategy would have been. As it happens, Lews Therin and the Amyrlin were both right -the bore needed to be sealed, but if saidar had been involved then the world would have been broken twice as badly.

He uses brute force a lot, but it's hard to call that a fault when that's among his biggest advantages. He usually is the most powerful thing on the field, but can't necessarily match the Forsaken for skill.

He brute force's Natrin's barrow, because he believes that Graendal can and will out plan him if he tries something clever. The one thing she can't match him with is force.

Logain knows what the taint is like for him, but it's different for the individual. He doesn't seem to have a voice in his head that takes control of his channeling away from him. Lews Therin holds a lot of the power there because he's seriously considering making Dragonmount 2.

What does good strategy at the Last Battle look like?

[Seppl]

Spoiler

Show

What does good strategy at the Last Battle look like?

Spoiler

Show

From the perspective of an armchair general with knowledge about modern warfare: Massive abuse of their superior mobility due to the gates.

Though it is excusable that they don't use the gates to their maximum advantage. The gates are a new and revolutionary concept, and them using them even somewhat is already quite good from their side. In the real world, generals also took a long time to really understand and abuse revolutionary technological advancements. A lot of the time it took the next, unbiased generation of generals to implement new tactics based on new technology. "Generals always fight the last war", as the saying goes.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

Show

It's very difficult to know what a good strategy would have been. As it happens, Lews Therin and the Amyrlin were both right -the bore needed to be sealed, but if saidar had been involved then the world would have been broken twice as badly.

He uses brute force a lot, but it's hard to call that a fault when that's among his biggest advantages. He usually is the most powerful thing on the field, but can't necessarily match the Forsaken for skill.

He brute force's Natrin's barrow, because he believes that Graendal can and will out plan him if he tries something clever. The one thing she can't match him with is force.

Logain knows what the taint is like for him, but it's different for the individual. He doesn't seem to have a voice in his head that takes control of his channeling away from him. Lews Therin holds a lot of the power there because he's seriously considering making Dragonmount 2.

What does good strategy at the Last Battle look like?

Spoiler

Show

Napolean's flying guns and Robert E. Lee on steroids. Gate in, blast the enemy, have a big infantry charge into the now shattered enemy, retreat back through the gate. Have a series of earthworks on your retreat across the continent, when one is being assaulted you gate into the sides and back of the horde to catch it by surprise then retreat back out before they can regroup.

The battle between Sammael and Rand shows that earthworks resist magic bombardment as well as cannons, and the ability to just teleport in makes the Light much stronger.

You are burning all the crops as you go, so they have to keep going forward or starve to death. The enemy will keep ramming themselves into your forts and getting ripped up by your flanking moves until they run out of troops.

[Thomas Cardew]

Spoiler

Show

I'm not going to read through 800+ pages of bad battle porn again to figure out how to do it properly. That said for one specific example, the forces of the Light need to protect the DR as he enter the Shayoul Ghul. One framework for strategy is : 'ends, ways, and means'. Ends are specific goals or objectives your trying to achieve, ways are methods to achieve those goals, means are the resources required to execute ways. Good Strategy is identifying end and matching ways and means. Ways to achieve the goal might be hold the entrance, deny the entrance, etc. Means include available military forces etc. The forces of Light decided to hold the entrance using ... light infantry with no integrated set of channelers... just why?

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

Show

I'm not going to read through 800+ pages of bad battle porn again to figure out how to do it properly. That said for one specific example, the forces of the Light need to protect the DR as he enter the Shayoul Ghul. One framework for strategy is : 'ends, ways, and means'. Ends are specific goals or objectives your trying to achieve, ways are methods to achieve those goals, means are the resources required to execute ways. Good Strategy is identifying end and matching ways and means. Ways to achieve the goal might be hold the entrance, deny the entrance, etc. Means include available military forces etc. The forces of Light decided to hold the entrance using ... light infantry with no integrated set of channelers... just why?

Spoiler: Aiel

Show

Are super heroes. Robert Jordan loved the Zulu style and gave his version inhuman combat abilities, like Perrin's buddy beating 8 trained soldiers. Why would you use tactics when you can use superheroes?

I'm reasonably certain their strategy at Shayol Gul was to draw the enemy into combat elsewhere, since there was no way for them to teleport back there. It was similar to the last battle of the Lord of the Rings, a huge distraction that still mattered because if they lost trorcs would invade the world. Putting too many forces around Shayol Gul would have taken too long/been too obvious, so they used a small force of superheroes there and the massive armies of normal people as bait.

[Gnoman]

More importantly,

Spoiler

Show

Sending the entire forces of the Light to Shayol Ghul might help defend Rand somewhat, but would come at the cost of allowing hundreds of thousands of "will eat anything, but prefer humans" monsters to rampage freely through the entire land, devouring every civilian they can get to. The battle of the Dragon and the Dark One only matters if the world isn't eaten by Trollocs anyway.

[Tvtyrant]

More importantly,

Spoiler

Show

Sending the entire forces of the Light to Shayol Ghul might help defend Rand somewhat, but would come at the cost of allowing hundreds of thousands of "will eat anything, but prefer humans" monsters to rampage freely through the entire land, devouring every civilian they can get to. The battle of the Dragon and the Dark One only matters if the world isn't eaten by Trollocs anyway.

Spoiler

Show

I did say "a huge distraction that still mattered because if they lost trorcs would invade the world." We are in agreement, they had to win on both fronts or the world gets wrecked.

[Thomas Cardew]

Spoiler

Show

My point wasn't send all the forces with the Dragon. It's that you don't send light infantry to hold ground. That's heavy infantry, archers, and integrated channelers job. The Seanchan have the ideal structure for it but happen to be a darkfriend infested mess plus politics. More realistically, some of the Borderlander/Andoran/Illian force structure seems to line up better. Cairheins/Tairien/Shinerans are way too cavalry centric, but the borderlanders at least have heavy experience defending fortifications and SHOULD have some siege engineer capable of throwing up rapid fortifications. I'll point out the only tactics for dealing with Aiel in media was basically pin them, hold them in place, and smash into them. The aiel are presented as basically light infantry/cavalry, they need room to maneuver.

And there are far more ends to accomplish than just protecting the dragon. You need to defend core regions in the southlands, identify what's worth holding and what's not. Identify key choke points and move the necessary certain of gravities to hold them. Use your mobility advantage and cavalry to harass.

Same goes for team darkside, where was the naval invasion of the south? Why bother attempt to take every fortification in the borderlands? Concentrate, Puncture, Sweep. Force the Light side to split forces by threatening cities/fortresses but don't try to take them.

Really, the problem is we get the last battle presented as one battle. Instead of the military campaign it really was/should of been.

[Traab]

Spoiler

Show

My point wasn't send all the forces with the Dragon. It's that you don't send light infantry to hold ground. That's heavy infantry, archers, and integrated channelers job. The Seanchan have the ideal structure for it but happen to be a darkfriend infested mess plus politics. More realistically, some of the Borderlander/Andoran/Illian force structure seems to line up better. Cairheins/Tairien/Shinerans are way too cavalry centric, but the borderlanders at least have heavy experience defending fortifications and SHOULD have some siege engineer capable of throwing up rapid fortifications. I'll point out the only tactics for dealing with Aiel in media was basically pin them, hold them in place, and smash into them. The aiel are presented as basically light infantry/cavalry, they need room to maneuver.

And there are far more ends to accomplish than just protecting the dragon. You need to defend core regions in the southlands, identify what's worth holding and what's not. Identify key choke points and move the necessary certain of gravities to hold them. Use your mobility advantage and cavalry to harass.

Same goes for team darkside, where was the naval invasion of the south? Why bother attempt to take every fortification in the borderlands? Concentrate, Puncture, Sweep. Force the Light side to split forces by threatening cities/fortresses but don't try to take them.

Really, the problem is we get the last battle presented as one battle. Instead of the military campaign it really was/should of been.

Team darkside first,

Spoiler

Show

While I agree they didnt need to take EVERY fortification, the last thing you want is a single point of failure leaving you cut off from retreat or resupply. If you take one castle protecting an invasion route, then team lightside only has to retake that tower to put a hurt on you as your troops forward of the castle are now cut off. Tear a giant gaping hole in their defenses and it takes a LOT more effort to seal the breech, giving you more time to react if they try it. If I have a dozen paths to move my troops, then thats a dozen times I have to be stopped before you can split my forces. Its also giving me way more options on where to move my troops, making it harder to tell where im going next. Lets imagine the map is setup so the bad guy turf where all the enemy springs forth from is setup so it has a dozen potential routes it can follow to invade the good guys. Each path is sealed by fortifications. If I take one of the ones in the east, thats where my troops are going to come from, and thats where the enemy has to go to stop it. If I take a fort from the east and north, then now you cant be sure which direction I will invade from so you have to split your forces. Now if I take all twelve fortifications, yeah you have time to reposition while I was busy doing that, but now you have a dozen avenues to wonder over which will be the real invasion force and which is a feint. Even Matt would have a tough time getting a lucky guess on that one. It has its advantages and disadvantages to be sure, a lightning raid could allow for vast destruction from the single point of overwhelming force before team light side can respond, but its also vulnerable to being cut off.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler

Show

Traveling is great for raids, but Shadowspawn hordes aren't very vulnerable to raids. They eat their dead, they don't have officers or supply lines, and are completely expendable. There are only so many gateway ambushes you can do before they catch on and start putting hails of arrows through unknown gateways. Which could lead to a lot of friendly fire at first, until they catch on to that too.

Weren't all the Aiel channelers at Shayol Ghul?