An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower

[tiornys]

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The prescience is strong in this one.

On the bright side, this particular upcoming plot point leads directly to another favorite scene later on.

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By any chance, does that scene involve, "Speak we what language, Sounder of the Horn?"

[Douglas]

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By any chance, does that scene involve, "Speak we what language, Sounder of the Horn?"

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I'd guess it's the scene shortly after that one, involving "you have toh."

[Sivarias]

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I'd guess it's the scene shortly after that one, involving "you have toh."

Spoiler: Apologies

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You guys realize that he never got an apology from Egwene, on top of having to wait until book 7 right?

That really pisses me off, on top of the poor quality of the apology and how they never did take his advice either. It's just... gah!! There's a reason I LOATHE team Magikarp.

[Traab]

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The prescience is strong in this one.

On the bright side, this particular upcoming plot point leads directly to another favorite scene later on.

Too be fair,

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thats not exactly a hard guess to make. They have done literally everything wrong, badly and with great arrogance to their infallibility. Its like they were already aes sedai.

[Saph]

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I bet they blunder right into the Black Ajah, get captured, and need the boys to save them. And they won't even say thank you.

I don't know whether to be impressed at his predictive powers, or to say 'well, let's face it, it's not a hard guess to make'.

I reread Dragon Reborn a year or two ago, and it struck me on the reread just how ridiculous the entire Black Ajah Hunters plotline was. First Siuan orders them to go on this stupid quest that's obviously way above their challenge rating, then Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne walk straight into the dragon's lair and then get surprised when things don't work out. I mean, it's three untrained channellers against thirteen trained ones, what exactly were they expecting to happen?

[tonberrian]

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Siuan does have the ability to see Main Characters. Maybe she just assumed that they'd be rescued by Mat, Perrin, or Rand before anything terrible happened to them.

It's not the worst plan.

[Wookieetank]

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Siuan does have the ability to see Main Characters. Maybe she just assumed that they'd be rescued by Mat, Perrin, or Rand before anything terrible happened to them.

It's not the worst plan.

Spoiler: Of plans terrible and otherwise (book 13 cont. thoughts)

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For all his recklessness, Mat is actually trying to get as prepared as he can for his most impressively planned bit of recklessness. Breaking into the tower of Ghenjei sounds like a terrible idea on a stupid drunk day, but at least Mat is doing it for a good cause, and trying to be smart about it. I'm starting to feel that Mat is aware of being in a fantasy work and trying to game the system for bonus powers and mad loot.

Perrin is planning to take on the Children of Light. With all this talk of Asha'man forming circles with the Wise Ones to increase their gateway size and duration, I'm expecting mad shenanigans. Perrin is either going to punt the CoL elsewhere through a surprise portal, or bring a surprise through a portal to deal with the CoL for him.

Ituralde feels like a DMPC (and a flagrant copy of a certain commander of a wall in the north). At least the actiony bits going on around him are neat, and seeing the start of the final battle is long awaited. But having this awesome commander just introduced last book (ignoring several others who really should be there instead) taking the lead in the fight to end all fights, kinda screams author insert for Brian Sanders to me.

I'm rather surprised that Elayne is very quickly outpacing Egwene in the terrible idea department. Lets impersonate a Forsaken, as newly queen of a nation that is not entirely stable, while preggers, and with our warder who is also a hero of the Horn unavailable (cause they'll talk us out of this bit of brilliance), all to get some info out of known (and currently incarcerated) Black Ajah members because we're too squeamish to resort to less savory means that someone else could do for us. This couldn't possible go south, nope, not a...oh it went south? Well damn. Number of people surprised by this, survey says: Elyane. At least she's on bed rest after receiving a mortal wound while preggers.

Gwayn is dumb. Seems to be a running theme for his family. If there is a single worst way to do anything, one of the Trakand siblings (I'm including Galad here) will not only come up with it, but follow through with carrying it out. "Self" exiled from the White Tower after botching the Amyrlin's plans to catch a forsaken intruder, while throwing the pity party to end all pity parties. Darth Emo could take notes from this guy. Most powerful woman in the world and you're not gonna listen to her and then get pissed when she gets pissed? Please, go jump in an open Trolloc's mouth and save the rest of us the agony of reading about you.

Lan's bits are still great fun. He's gonna wake up one morning and just find himself in the middle of an army that just so happened to spring up around him in the night. I've started thinking of this book as The Trolling of Lan.

[Saph]

Spoiler: Of plans terrible and otherwise (book 13 cont. thoughts)

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Gwayn is dumb. Seems to be a running theme for his family. If there is a single worst way to do anything, one of the Trakand siblings (I'm including Galad here) will not only come up with it, but follow through with carrying it out.

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Yeah, that really stood out to me on a reread. The Trakands seem to be the world leaders in bad decisions, but while Gawyn, Galad, Elayne, and Morgase all make terrible choices, Elayne apparently gets to be immune from consequences while the others don't.

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 27: Tel'aran'rhiod

As Team Magikarp perform their punitive kitchen duties they are visited by a series of Aes Sedai including Verin, Anaiya, Alanna, and Elaida. Nothing important comes out of these that I can see right now but I've included this detail in case it comes up later. Also, am I the only one who's noticed that since arriving in the White Tower we haven't seen them actually attend a single class here? I want some Harry Potter hijinks, darn it!

But we're not here to read about scrubbing dishes. Its time for Egwene to go on a dream trip and do some spyin' on the Black Ajah. She goes to bed in her room with Nynaeve and Elayne to keep watch and slips over to the Upside Down. She appears in a field of flowers wearing a fancy dress with butterflies all around, but before the My Little Pony music can start she takes a step and suddenly she's in dingy old inn. Inside, Perrin is tied to a pillar in his underwear. Get the kids out of the room, folks, it's turning into that kind of dream. In front of the fireplace is what Egwene at first thinks is a dog but is actually a wolf. Hopper the dead spirit dream wolf in fact, though Egwene doesn't know about him. Hopper snarls at her and she shouts at Perrin. Hopper prepares to lunge at her and a pair of doors slam shut between them. Egwene is now outside on a dark and foggy night. She sees a campfire, goes toward it and finds Rand huddled near the fire. He's in the full throes of madness right now and when Egwene reveals herself he assumes she's an illusion sent by The Dark One and draws his sword on her. Egwene's got no choice but to run from him. Well, this is all very interesting and horrible, Egwene thinks, but it's not very useful now, is it? She grips the Dream Ring and tries to will herself to where she needs to be.

She opens her eyes and now she's in a red stone hall with glowing sword floating in the middle of it which is of course Callandor in the Stone of Tear. An ugly old woman appears named Silvie who, I mean, let's not even pretend we don't know this is Lanfear. She talks about the High Lords of Tear scheming and plotting for power and drops a bombshell on us. One of the High Lords of Tear is in fact the Forsaken Ishamael. Well that will make things fun now, won't it? Either he's here to prevent Rand from getting Callandor or he's trying to figure out how to wield it himself, though only the Dragon can hold Callandor. Anyone else who tries to touch the sword is repelled by an invisible force field, as Egwene learns when she reaches for it. Egwene magically scans the force field and finds it's made of Saidin and Saidar woven together from Air, Fire, and Spirit weaves.

The sound of boots comes down the hall and Silvie says they have to go now, because Ishamael is coming to stare at the sword. Whether asleep or awake, he's obsessed with it. Egwene takes the ring in her hand and tries to will herself back to the Green Hill Zone, but it doesn't work. "Silvie" starts mocking her for going into a dangerous place without knowing the way out and wraps her arms around her in a not so welcome embrace, clutching at the ring...

And then Egwene wakes up.

She tells Nynaeve and Egwene what she saw, and that they have to go to Tear. Of course, the Black Ajah are certainly lying in wait to spring a trap, but as Nynaeve slyly says, the best way to catch whoever lays a trap is to spring it. Yeah, I'm sure many a fly caught in a web has thought "I've got that spider just where I want him!" Well before they can get themselves uselessly captured in Tear, they'll need to secure passage there on a boat, and brings up the niggling fact that they're not supposed to leave the Tower. Well, Siuan has basically given them free reign to act as they please, they reckon, so she won't mind at all if they run off to Tear without informing her of their plans first. But then there's the sticking matter of international relations. Queen Morgase is still pretty steamed over the whole "my daughter disappeared from your Tower without a trace" thing from the last book, and Siuan certainly doesn't want that happening a second time. So the solution is clear: bring Alayne along against the Amyrlin's wishes but this time write a letter to Morgase explaining where Elayne is going and entrust it to Mat to bring it Caemlyn, who isn't allowed to leave the city and who Morgase has no reason to know or trust, and keeping Siuan utterly in the dark about all of this. There, no problems with that plan at all.

[GrayDeath]

Indeed. Total obliviousness to the rescue! Or somesuch....^^

I cant wait to see your reactions to Egwenes "Teachers" for Dream Stuff later (ot saying more to avoid spoiilers). I loved the comeuppance there, even if it ahd its own problems...

[Wookieetank]

Makes me think of this Monty Python Sketch:

[Sapphire Guard]

Bringing Elayne along truly is incredibly irresponsible. Heir to the Throne going missing again in the Amyrlin's care could very easily start a war, and that's if nothing goes wrong. Maybe Nynaeve and Egwene aren't familiar enough with politics to know better, but Elayne is really dropping the ball here.

[Sivarias]

Spoiler: Of plans terrible and otherwise (book 13 cont. thoughts)

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Ituralde feels like a DMPC (and a flagrant copy of a certain commander of a wall in the north). At least the actiony bits going on around him are neat, and seeing the start of the final battle is long awaited. But having this awesome commander just introduced last book (ignoring several others who really should be there instead) taking the lead in the fight to end all fights, kinda screams author insert for Brian Sanders to me.

I'm rather surprised that Elayne is very quickly outpacing Egwene in the terrible idea department.

Lan's bits are still great fun. He's gonna wake up one morning and just find himself in the middle of an army that just so happened to spring up around him in the night. I've started thinking of this book as The Trolling of Lan.

Spoiler: Commentary

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First, you haven't met Sander's DMPC yet, or he would stand out like a sore thumb. IIRC Iterulde was introduced MUCH earlier in the series, I think as early as Winter's Heart (Prologue). Also, your getting to the point where everyone starts pulling together. This is Armageddon and it doesn't fall on the just a handful of characters. Furthermore, depending on which Northern Commander you are talking about (Jon Snow?) IIRC this book was released before that one was. In all fairness though, Jordan and Martin were avid pen pals, much like Tolkien and Lewis.

I hate her because she is dumb and arrogant. That is all. Egwene (mostly) redeemed herself while inside the tower trying to pull it together.

Yes, this book is ALL about the Lan trolling. It's quite nice.

Chapter 27: Tel'aran'rhiod

As Team Magikarp

She tells Nynaeve and Egwene what she saw, and that they have to go to Tear. Of course, the Black Ajah are certainly lying in wait to spring a trap, but as Nynaeve slyly says, the best way to catch whoever lays a trap is to spring it. Yeah, I'm sure many a fly caught in a web has thought "I've got that spider just where I want him!" Well before they can get themselves uselessly captured in Tear, they'll need to secure passage there on a boat, and brings up the niggling fact that they're not supposed to leave the Tower. Well, Siuan has basically given them free reign to act as they please, they reckon, so she won't mind at all if they run off to Tear without informing her of their plans first. But then there's the sticking matter of international relations. Queen Morgase is still pretty steamed over the whole "my daughter disappeared from your Tower without a trace" thing from the last book, and Siuan certainly doesn't want that happening a second time. So the solution is clear: bring Alayne along against the Amyrlin's wishes but this time write a letter to Morgase explaining where Elayne is going and entrust it to Mat to bring it Caemlyn, who isn't allowed to leave the city and who Morgase has no reason to know or trust, and keeping Siuan utterly in the dark about all of this. There, no problems with that plan at all.

I love this. It's officially been stolen.

As for this, the ladies don't know Mat can't leave the Tower. But the rest of the plan is absolute horse****e, yah.

[Douglas]

For Harry Potter hijinks with classes, there are some amusing stories later on about how one or another novice's block (like how Nynaeve can only channel when angry) was broken. I can think of a few other class scenes, but thar be spoilers.

I don't think Rand is actually even slightly mad in this scene, much less "in the full throes" of it - he really is being assaulted in his dreams by agents of the Dark One. There's certainly precedent in earlier books for it, we just aren't seeing it from Rand's point of view now.

Springing a trap actually is a very good way to catch whoever laid it. The trick is springing the trap without getting caught by it. I'm not sure Nynaeve paid attention to that part when she learned the idea, though.

Spoiler: Of plans terrible and otherwise (book 13 cont. thoughts)

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For all his recklessness, Mat is actually trying to get as prepared as he can for his most impressively planned bit of recklessness. Breaking into the tower of Ghenjei sounds like a terrible idea on a stupid drunk day, but at least Mat is doing it for a good cause, and trying to be smart about it. I'm starting to feel that Mat is aware of being in a fantasy work and trying to game the system for bonus powers and mad loot.

Perrin is planning to take on the Children of Light. With all this talk of Asha'man forming circles with the Wise Ones to increase their gateway size and duration, I'm expecting mad shenanigans. Perrin is either going to punt the CoL elsewhere through a surprise portal, or bring a surprise through a portal to deal with the CoL for him.

Ituralde feels like a DMPC (and a flagrant copy of a certain commander of a wall in the north). At least the actiony bits going on around him are neat, and seeing the start of the final battle is long awaited. But having this awesome commander just introduced last book (ignoring several others who really should be there instead) taking the lead in the fight to end all fights, kinda screams author insert for Brian Sanders to me.

I'm rather surprised that Elayne is very quickly outpacing Egwene in the terrible idea department. Lets impersonate a Forsaken, as newly queen of a nation that is not entirely stable, while preggers, and with our warder who is also a hero of the Horn unavailable (cause they'll talk us out of this bit of brilliance), all to get some info out of known (and currently incarcerated) Black Ajah members because we're too squeamish to resort to less savory means that someone else could do for us. This couldn't possible go south, nope, not a...oh it went south? Well damn. Number of people surprised by this, survey says: Elyane. At least she's on bed rest after receiving a mortal wound while preggers.

Gwayn is dumb. Seems to be a running theme for his family. If there is a single worst way to do anything, one of the Trakand siblings (I'm including Galad here) will not only come up with it, but follow through with carrying it out. "Self" exiled from the White Tower after botching the Amyrlin's plans to catch a forsaken intruder, while throwing the pity party to end all pity parties. Darth Emo could take notes from this guy. Most powerful woman in the world and you're not gonna listen to her and then get pissed when she gets pissed? Please, go jump in an open Trolloc's mouth and save the rest of us the agony of reading about you.

Lan's bits are still great fun. He's gonna wake up one morning and just find himself in the middle of an army that just so happened to spring up around him in the night. I've started thinking of this book as The Trolling of Lan.

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No, Mat doesn't know he's in a fantasy work, but he does know he's Ta'veren with a specialty in supernatural luck and that's almost as good.

Ituralde has been mentioned occasionally throughout the series as being one of the famous Great Captains, the generally acknowledged best army commanders on the continent. The other four have already appeared and had important roles, it should be no surprise that the fifth one also shows up and, being a Great Captain, demonstrates great skill as an army commander. He is being introduced here because this is when serious fighting is finally starting in his home country. Also, if by "final battle" and "fight to end all fights" you mean Tarmon Gai'don, you are wrong. Tarmon Gai'don does not start until part way through A Memory of Light.

Gawyn and Egwene have a serious problem with trusting each other at this point. Egwene doesn't trust Gawyn to not interfere with her plans, and Gawyn doesn't trust Egwene to not put herself in danger, and they're both right. Gawyn needs to accept that sometimes Egwene really does need to take a huge risk and it's her decision anyway, Egwene needs to accept that keeping Gawyn in the dark is inviting trouble through misunderstandings and denying him the ability to properly assess the situation, and they both need to let each other know about it.

And yes, the Trolling of Lan was expertly done and is great fun to read.

[The New Bruceski]

I don't think Rand is actually even slightly mad in this scene, much less "in the full throes" of it - he really is being assaulted in his dreams by agents of the Dark One. There's certainly precedent in earlier books for it, we just aren't seeing it from Rand's point of view now.

It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you. Last time we saw Rand he had decided to run across the continent, alone, without any helpful wards to keep the Dark One from smelling him or whatever.

[Wookieetank]

Thanks for the clarification on what's his face, its hard to keep track of the obscure characters when you've been reading a series off and on for 20ish years.

Spoiler: More book 13 Shenanigans

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The dragon has been reborn! Or at least cannons, Dragon dude has been around a bit at this point. With Elayne showing up while on bedrest to watch the testing of the cannons, I'm rather worried that she is the monarch getting her hands on them, I'm sure that won't end poorly...

Mat beat the gholam through a nice bit of planning (not all of which was his) and trolling. Near unkillable enemy, lets toss them into the void in the Ways and deliver a fantastic bond one-liner as we do it. Mat & the Red Band are happily reunited and much celebrating ensues (until the whole Tower of Midnight bit, that's gonna be rough going methinks).

Non-emo Perrin continues to successfully train with the wolves and catches up timeline wise with Rand just about (watched the near end of the world from the Wolf Dream, lived to tell the tale). Terrorizing the white cloaks with what could have happened if battle had actually been taken was a nice bit of subterfuge. Perrin is set up to go on trial and Morgase has finally been revealed as what she is (witch! burn her! ), ex-queen of Andor, and is going to be ruling in said trial.

Morgase and Galad have some familial bonding time. The jury is so far out to lunch on Galad that they're refusing to give a definite return time.

Egwene takes over the tower even more fully through clever politicing, in one of her few moments of non-idiocy. She's also convinced she's being hunted by a forsaken, and is setting up for a confrontation in Tel'aran'rhiod (which seems like a terrible idea, per usual with Egwene really). Gawyn discovers its actually a seanchan (which I'm now thinking of as Shawn-chan in my head) assassin. Mad note passing ensues in place of proper communication in person.

Bashere finally shows up to save Itrulade's bacon. Rand shows up to save the day and set expectations quite high for what the spectacle of the last battle is going to be. Ruler dude & Co. of Maradon is found to be agents of Darkness.Dun Dun Dun!

Crystal Dragon Jesus Rand shows up in Bandar Eban to appologize, fix everything by just being there, and return hope to the land. Just needs to work on getting things to stay fixed when he's not around (seems to be working in Camlyn, but that could just be his kids' presence doing it).

Edit:

Spoiler: Book 13 the Final

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Finally met Androl, and for all the talk of being the DMPC I've heard, he's terribly dull and rather inconsequential feeling. Introducing him in the last quarter of the 2nd to last book is not helping this impression.

Perrin survies the trial, saves the day by taking on and nearly defeating slayer in the wolf dream (along with accidentally being a pivotal player in Egwene's terrible plan), creates Mjolnir Mah'alleinir in a suitably epic scene, and just for good measure ends the day saving the Whitecloak's bacon from trollocs. Galad now serves under Perrin for the duration of the last battle, not too shabby for a day's work. Perrin ends the book at the staging grounds for the last battle and discovers that Noam escaped his woes by becoming a wolf in the wolf dream.

After some...akward introductions, Rand gets the borderlanders in line, and does a fine job of guilt tripping them on having completely abandonned their posts. Offers them to join up, or sit out the last battle, they volunteered as tribute. Rand ends in the staging grounds for the last battle and has a dream implicating that "Selene" is still alive and under great torture by the Dark One. Totally not a ploy to throw him off his game, nope.

Lan gets his army, accepts his fate, raises the Golden Crane and rides for Malkieri on the horse that was what ultimately gave him away. When your mount is almost as noteworthy as you are, need to give it at least a mustache or some such to hide its identity. Ends the book in an Epic charge of Epicness to his "death" (his words, not mine).

Mat, Thom and Noel (3 musketeers 2.0 ), head into the tower of Ghenjei. 3 will enter, 3 will return. The realm of foxes is as odd and interesting as I remembered it. Moraine is resuced, Mat loses his eye, and Noel is revealed to be Jain Farstrider just prior to pulling a big damn hero and saving everyone else. Mat, Thom and Moraine escape barely from snakelandia (took a slight detour from foxlandia). They end the book camping out waiting for Perrin's Portal, and me being surprised as Mat that Moraine and Thom are totally a couple (could've sworn Thom and Morgase were gonna get hitched for most of the series).

Aviendha goes to Rhuidean to become a wise one. Learning the past wasn't enough for her, so she goes through the pillars a 2nd time and learns the future. Seems her descendants are gonna muck things up after the Last Battle is won and cause a Seanchan ruled dystopian future. Would make for an interesting epilogue book/series, but felt a fair bit grimdark compared to how optimistic the rest of the series has been overall. She ends the book running back across the Three-fold land, hopfully arriving in time to participate in saving the world.

Elayne pulls of some decent politicing and manages to claim the sun throne without getting dead (barely). Takes the armies of Andor and Cairhien to the staging grounds for the Last Battle, exits stage right.

Egwene manages to survive and win her terrible plan to take out a forsaken. If not for Perrin's timely arrival with the dreamspike, I don't think it would've ended as well though. Gawyn shows up just in time to save Egwene from assassins in the real world while she's jacked into the matrix. Upon waking Egwene has to bond Gawyn to save his life, finally the slap slap kiss kiss is over. Time for team building exercises Like everyone else they're hanging out at the staging grounds for the Last Battle at book end.

Olver wins a game of snakes and foxes, there is seriously something more than meets the eye with this kid, maybe Mat's luck is rubbing off on him. He finds Verin's letter and opens it, much to Talmanes dismay. Turns out it should've been opened sooner. Talmanes rushes to Caemlyn to meaet the now in progress Trolloc invasion, fade to black.

Managed to start book 14, but due to its length, I'm still working on the prologue at this point.

[Douglas]

Spoiler: Book 13 the Final

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me being surprised as Mat that Moraine and Thom are totally a couple (could've sworn Thom and Morgase were gonna get hitched for most of the series).

...

Olver wins a game of snakes and foxes, there is seriously something more than meets the eye with this kid, maybe Mat's luck is rubbing off on him. He finds Verin's letter and opens it, much to Talmanes dismay. Turns out it should've been opened sooner. Talmanes rushes to Caemlyn to meaet the now in progress Trolloc invasion, fade to black.

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Lots of people figured out Moiraine and Thom a long time ago, there are quite a few clues to it. Most of them are pretty subtle, but they're there. On the flip side, Thom and Morgase were a couple before and had a big falling out. There's some serious bad history there, and no development towards working it out.

Olver wins snakes and foxes as a sign of Mat winning the contest that inspired the game - dealing with the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. There may well be something up with Olver, but in this case it's straight up Mat being Ta'veren. Meanwhile, Verin seriously underestimated Mat's stubbornness.

[snowblizz]

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Olver wins snakes and foxes as a sign of Mat winning the contest that inspired the game - dealing with the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. There may well be something up with Olver, but in this case it's straight up Mat being Ta'veren.

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I'm not sure how Red Herringy it is but I always thought the books were telling me Olver is Gaidal Cain (sp?), Brigitte's dude. There's just something to their interactions and stuff. Probably be quite the guy Olver when he grows up. Clearly going to Unofficial Hero School presided over by I'm-Not-A-Hero Matrim Biggest Hero Ever Cauthon.

[Anteros]

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I'm not sure how Red Herringy it is but I always thought the books were telling me Olver is Gaidal Cain (sp?), Brigitte's dude. There's just something to their interactions and stuff. Probably be quite the guy Olver when he grows up. Clearly going to Unofficial Hero School presided over by I'm-Not-A-Hero Matrim Biggest Hero Ever Cauthon.

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Jordan said repeatedly in interviews he isn't, even though the text in the books is obviously dropping a billion hints that he is. Kinda like how he said Mazrim Taim was never supposed to be Demandred, despite the fact that he was obviously originally intended to be Demandred.

My personal theory is that Jodan didn't like it when everyone figured out his big reveals too soon, so he changed his plans.

[Douglas]

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I'm not sure how Red Herringy it is but I always thought the books were telling me Olver is Gaidal Cain (sp?), Brigitte's dude. There's just something to their interactions and stuff. Probably be quite the guy Olver when he grows up. Clearly going to Unofficial Hero School presided over by I'm-Not-A-Hero Matrim Biggest Hero Ever Cauthon.

Spoiler

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Jordan said repeatedly in interviews he isn't, even though the text in the books is obviously dropping a billion hints that he is. Kinda like how he said Mazrim Taim was never supposed to be Demandred, despite the fact that he was obviously originally intended to be Demandred.

My personal theory is that Jodan didn't like it when everyone figured out his big reveals too soon, so he changed his plans.

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Jordan really shouldn't have needed to say that, in my opinion. Olver is too old to be Gaidal Cain. Way too old. People came up with convoluted theories to explain that away, but none of them ever really seemed plausible to me.

As for Taimandred, the eventual reveal of what Demandred has actually been up to all this time incidentally reveals that he's been busy enough that being Taim at the same time would be rather difficult - and I very much doubt that Demandred taking over Shara was a late change to the series. It makes too much sense, it's the only thing that brings the last known part of the world into the conflict, and it was set up as far back as when Graendal revealed she'd kidnapped and brainwashed Shara's rulers.

In short, I see no reason to believe Jordan was lying about either of these subjects. Sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence, multiple characters can share traits, Jordan is not known for lying about things, and there are reasons from the books themselves to believe these theories were wrong. And what's "obvious" to one person can easily be nothing of the sort to another - remember how obvious he thought who killed Asmodean was?

[tiornys]

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As for Taimandred, the eventual reveal of what Demandred has actually been up to all this time incidentally reveals that he's been busy enough that being Taim at the same time would be rather difficult - and I very much doubt that Demandred taking over Shara was a late change to the series. It makes too much sense, it's the only thing that brings the last known part of the world into the conflict, and it was set up as far back as when Graendal revealed she'd kidnapped and brainwashed Shara's rulers.

In short, I see no reason to believe Jordan was lying about either of these subjects. Sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence, multiple characters can share traits, Jordan is not known for lying about things, and there are reasons from the books themselves to believe these theories were wrong. And what's "obvious" to one person can easily be nothing of the sort to another - remember how obvious he thought who killed Asmodean was?

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We actually know, from notes that have become public, that Jordan originally intended Taim to be Demandred. I think it's likely that he changed it because, as you note, it worked better for the story. He wasn't the type of writer to hold strictly to his original conceptions, but rather let them grow and develop organically as he wrote. So, I doubt that he changed it just because people were seeing the potential connection, but it's undeniable that Demandred was the original inspiration for the version of Taim that shows up for the Dragon's amnesty.

[Anteros]

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Jordan really shouldn't have needed to say that, in my opinion. Olver is too old to be Gaidal Cain. Way too old. People came up with convoluted theories to explain that away, but none of them ever really seemed plausible to me.

As for Taimandred, the eventual reveal of what Demandred has actually been up to all this time incidentally reveals that he's been busy enough that being Taim at the same time would be rather difficult - and I very much doubt that Demandred taking over Shara was a late change to the series. It makes too much sense, it's the only thing that brings the last known part of the world into the conflict, and it was set up as far back as when Graendal revealed she'd kidnapped and brainwashed Shara's rulers.

In short, I see no reason to believe Jordan was lying about either of these subjects. Sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence, multiple characters can share traits, Jordan is not known for lying about things, and there are reasons from the books themselves to believe these theories were wrong. And what's "obvious" to one person can easily be nothing of the sort to another - remember how obvious he thought who killed Asmodean was?

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He introduced enough time skipping aspects to the wolf dream that it was more than possible to justify Olver's age. For Taim, see the post tiornys made. It also references the fact that Demandred originally killed Asmodeon and Jordan changed his mind on it too. I respect Jordan as a writer, but he was certainly not above lying to his fans in order to preserve the mysteries in his series.

He also once told us in an interview that we had seen Demandred's alter ego some time around book 9, which obviously ended up not being true.

[georgie_leech]

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He introduced enough time skipping aspects to the wolf dream that it was more than possible to justify Olver's age. For Taim, see the post tiornys made. It also references the fact that Demandred originally killed Asmodeon and Jordan changed his mind on it too. I respect Jordan as a writer, but he was certainly not above lying to his fans in order to preserve the mysteries in his series.

He also once told us in an interview that we had seen Demandred's alter ego some time around book 9, which obviously ended up not being true.

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Time skipping, sure, but it's still been more or less "the present" as far as these things go. Oliver would have had to have been born long before Birgitte would have been separated from Gaidal, and even before Nynave met her in the first place.

[Douglas]

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He introduced enough time skipping aspects to the wolf dream that it was more than possible to justify Olver's age. For Taim, see the post tiornys made. It also references the fact that Demandred originally killed Asmodeon and Jordan changed his mind on it too. I respect Jordan as a writer, but he was certainly not above lying to his fans in order to preserve the mysteries in his series.

He also once told us in an interview that we had seen Demandred's alter ego some time around book 9, which obviously ended up not being true.

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Gaidal Cain appeared in person in TAR when Olver was already a few years old. TAR has been shown to have time flow at different rates relative to the waking world, but never to go backwards.

[Anteros]

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None of those rules were really established until well after the Olver theories were popular though.

[Saph]

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Yeah, I'm with Douglas on this one. Just saying 'oh, time is weird in the World of Dreams' doesn't explain the fact that Olver was born and alive in the real world for years and years while Gaidal Cain was still running around in the World of Dreams.

The Olver theory sounds tempting, but as soon as you take a good look at the timeline it's obviously wrong. The World of Dreams lets you do a lot of funky stuff but there's no evidence that it allows duplicating souls or actual time travel.

[Anteros]

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But there was no reason for the fandom to be certain that was the case until Jordan outright said it. You're looking at it with hindsight. He could have just as easily ended up writing it the other way and people would be making posts about how it was so obvious all along.

Just like how now we have people who post that it was obvious who killed Asmodean, or that Taim isn't Demandred, despite the fact that the answers to these mysteries were literally intended to be one thing, and later changed by Jordan.

There are a lot of hints that Olver was Gaidal Caine in the books, and it wasn't made obvious that he couldn't be until well after the theory was wildly popular in the fanbase. Just like with Asmodean or Demandred. Jordan hated it when one of his mysteries ended up being predictable. Not that I particularly blame him.

[georgie_leech]

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But there was no reason for the fandom to be certain that was the case until Jordan outright said it. You're looking at it with hindsight. He could have just as easily ended up writing it the other way and people would be making posts about how it was so obvious all along.

Just like how now we have people who post that it was obvious who killed Asmodean, or that Taim isn't Demandred, despite the fact that the answers to these mysteries were literally intended to be one thing, and later changed by Jordan.

There are a lot of hints that Olver was Gaidal Caine in the books, and it wasn't made obvious that he couldn't be until well after the theory was wildly popular in the fanbase. Just like with Asmodean or Demandred. Jordan hated it when one of his mysteries ended up being predictable. Not that I particularly blame him.

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Personally, I never thought it was particularly obvious about Asmodean's murderer. But more to the point, the "physics" of the World of Dreams is... well, dreamlike. It's more or less an ongoing shared dream. And personally, I've never had a dream and then woken up before I fell asleep. Have you?

[Saph]

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But there was no reason for the fandom to be certain that was the case until Jordan outright said it.

'Time doesn't flow backwards' isn't some crazy leap of logic, though. It's what you assume until proven otherwise.

And I remember the WOT FAQ debunking the Olver/Cain theory right from the start. It wasn't like no-one else noticed the problems with the theory.

[Wookieetank]

Spoiler: Book the Last: The Beginning of the End!

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Talmanes pretty much saves the day in Caemlyn, or at least as much of the day as he can out numbered and sans-Mat. Due to being almost a main character, he earns himself the title of Dredbane, and gets his doomed life saved by Nynaeve.

Slayer gets some horrifying background revealed, and is tasked with sniping Rand. Kinda expected something like this one sooner tbh.

M'Hael is officially a forsaken now. Wasn't quite expecting this, but then I should've put Hardcore Darkfriend(TM) and super mage together better. Explains where the dream spike at the dark tower came from.

Elayne finds out about Caemlyn's fall and starts planning a counterattack. Rand in a clever bit of note writing convinces her to stay by telling her to run off to Caemlyn and don't worry about what he has planned.

Androl is still dull, and has managed to both be bonded and to counter bond at the same time. I've been expecting this to be a thing since it was first that shown Asha'man could bond Aes Sedai. The scientific process is not well used in this age. Seems the Shadow has been forcefully turning the Black Tower and any nearby Aes Sedai evil with Myrddraals & Dark Mages, yikes.

Only complaint is the guest star DM's DMPC being dull, and the DMPC's bits highly accentuating upon the stylistic differences in the DMs.