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2018-02-24, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
I'm not familiar with either author's work outside of the WoT series, so I don't think that I can make a fair comparison of their abilities. That said, I can't really agree that with Jordan, "even the unlikable ones feel like real people with real motivations". To start with, for me at least, all the main characters are unlikable, and so are the secondary characters; I don't find any I consider likable until we get to the characters I'd consider tertiary (or beyond). And their motivations are only realistic if they're all idiots. Well, basically, they are all idiots, but still.
Of course, it doesn't help that even by the time of the last couple of books written by Jordan, I was basically just slogging through the series out of a sense that I'd read that far so I needed to see it through. A bit of a sunk costs fallacy, I suppose.
Ok, looking back at what I just typed, I'm being overly harsh. Still, that's an exaggerated but fairly accurate summation of how I feel.
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2018-02-24, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
A Faerie Affair
Homebrew: Sig
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2018-02-24, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Honestly I mostly remember the majority of the WoT characters as pretty normal fantasy story characters. (Though some a bit more annoying.) Ones I spend much more time reading about than usual so with more characterization than most but I can't say I really get your praise Anteros.
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2018-02-24, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
I definitely think Brandon Sanderson had a LOT to learn about writing characters, and that was definitely not one of his strengths in his early works. I haven't read Elantris, but looking at the first Mistborn trilogy and Warbreaker, the worlds and the magic are far more interesting than the people. I think that's definitely a fair criticism.
However, I also think he was aware of that and made efforts to improve. It's still not one of the things he's best at, but the Stormlight Archive, the second Mistborn series, and even the Reckoners books show a marked improvement in characterization over Sanderson's earlier works.
As for his contributions to the Wheel of Time, none of the things people commonly complain about stood out to me at the time I read them (though admittedly it has been awhile).
Spoiler: nothing really specific, but spoilers on the general direction of the seriesWhat I did like about Sanderson's three WoT books is that he got things moving again. It really seemed to me like Jordan had lost control and just kept letting the scope of the story get bigger and bigger. There were so many POV characters that even though these books were closing in on a thousand pages, individual characters' stories often felt like they barely progressed at all.
Brandon Sanderson had to take Jordan's notes for A Memory of Light and make them into three books to finish out the series. Had Jordan lived, I'm not sure he could have done it in five.
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2018-02-24, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Yeah they really arent the same. One is a full grown experienced adult with connections and the other is a street rat child. One is a deadly accomplished fighter, even if totally not a front line type, the other is, once again, a child. He can talk tough but I think he kills all of one person in the series and that was a traumatic event. I was more using it as a comparison that being able to boil down characters to a handful of descriptive terms doesnt make them identical. I dont read sandersons work so im not sure just how identical the characters mentioned really are but I figured it was likely that they touch the same group of generic traits you sometimes see in various works which makes them similar but they can still vary fairly well within those tropes.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2018-02-24, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
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2018-02-25, 03:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
SpoilerI'm a little disappointed no one commented on the two genuine spoilers in my list of "obviously fake" spoilers.Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
Avatar by Ceika.
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SpoilerSaberhagen's Twelve Swords, some homebrew artifacts for 3.5 (please comment)
Isstinen Tonche for ECL 74 playtesting.
Team Solars: Powergaming beyond your wildest imagining, without infinite loops or epic. Yes, the DM asked for it.
Arcane Swordsage: Making it actually work (homebrew)
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2018-02-25, 06:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- UK
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
A Faerie Affair
Homebrew: Sig
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2018-02-25, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2011
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
By today's standards, Jordan has a lot of problems. There's some great stuff in there, but you can get similarly great stuff more often now that it's not worth it. While I find the main plot the weakest point of the series, it did pave the way for Martin or Rothfuss to be able to books that aren't the standard hero's journey schlock.
There's some interesting sections that stand out on their own: The "I win again Lews Therin" passages or the Aes Sedai Accepted tests for example. They cover a lot of interesting what if, provide backstory or new information to us and up the stakes of the narrative well in just a few pages each.
We all read for different reasons. If getting too much non-authoritative information is a problem, you're going to look at the series as ridiculously bloated. I like such, but think RJ took it way too far, even after 11 books there's plenty of basic what can channeling do questions remaining (with at least half the main characters being magic users who talk/think about the magic all the time). Guy had a real genius for writing something that looks like it tells you what you want to know that doesn't.
Like I've said before, for these and a bunch of other reasons, I find the writing of the Sanderson offerings in the series lacking. Talk about bloat there, you can probably cut half without losing anything important, even though some of it is fan service of course.
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2018-02-25, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
You could make that argument, but I can't see myself ever agreeing with it. Jordan writes real people, places you inside their head, and lets you watch as they naturally grow as a person. Even the unlikable ones feel like real people with real motivations.
Sanderson writes shallow tropes with quirky personalities that don't grow very realistically at all. It can be entertaining, but once you realize that most of his characters are the same person it quickly loses its charm. At least he did this in his earlier books. He might have evolved as a writer since I've read his work, but it would have to be a ridiculous improvement before you could even compare his characters to Jordan. He's basically this generation's Salvatore. He writes shallow pulpy fantasy that's entertaining enough, but the only truly interesting bits are the settings themselves.
I'm not very familiar with these characters but given Eddings' reputation I'm going to bet that there's a lot more to both of them than the fact that they're sneaky smooth talking thieves. I'm betting they wouldn't react the exact same to every possible situation, and that their humor and dialogue reads differently despite being smooth talkers. This wouldn't be the case if Sanderson wrote them.
With a sufficiently large amount of books then its of course impossible to avoid shared traits to a certain degree. But everyone has their own motivation, and personal point of view.
Spoiler
As for the 3 main characters, then i am going to tell you with an absolute straight face that there isnt a bigger difference than then one found between them in say book 1 and 7. Sanderson actually saved Perrin, made him likeable again.
While Mat honestly remained Mat in my eyes.
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-02-25, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- London, England.
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Really can't agree with that. I read Rothfuss' two books and found them interesting enough, but there's nothing particularly new there, and I never got past book 1 of GoT. That was years ago, and I've never felt any desire to go back to either author. By contrast, I've read through Wheel of Time several times. Jordan does several things much, much better than either Martin or Rothfuss.
I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!
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2018-02-25, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
I mean, I read the Mistborn trilogy, Warbreaker, Elantris, and all of his WoT books before I decided he wasn't a very good writer. That's 8 books. It's not like I didn't give him a fair shake. Should I just keep buying his books forever on the chance they improve one day?
SpoilerHe saved Perrin by completely changing his character. He turned Rand into some sort of Jesus analogue where we barely ever see inside his head because we're too busy learning about Androl, and he turned Mat from a rogue into a clown.Last edited by Anteros; 2018-02-25 at 10:06 AM.
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2018-02-25, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
I mean, I read the Mistborn trilogy, Warbreaker, Elantris, and all of his WoT books before I decided he wasn't a very good writer. That's 8 books. It's not like I didn't give him a fair shake. Should I just keep buying his books forever on the chance they improve one day?
(example perhaps slightly exagerated)
Likely enough to give you an idea about if you like his writing style or not. And its also fair if you dont like it. But i dont considder it enough to actually be able to judge his ability as a writer.
Also surprised though. I read Elantris myself, and though it a really good book. I also though every relevant character in there was well developed. Certainly enough to make the comparison with Salvator unfair.
Spoiler
Well yes, that was also what it took to save Perrin. I used to skim though his chapters.
Rand as a savior where meanwhile a direction that had been hinted by for a little while, and i did not think it was an unatural direction. I certainly think its unfair to blame Androl for the limited about of time we get inside Rands head. Sanderson took over quite a mess of plot threat that had to be resolved, and we still had a decent amount of Rand.
As for Mat, no, no clowning. He was a rogue before and were still a rogue in the last 3 books. Just one that had at least partly accepted his responsibility.
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-02-25, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
I liked salvatore. At least some of his stuff. Was a huge fan of the cleric quintet series and also enjoyed the first, i dunno, 12 or 15 books dealing with drizzt before it got too repetitive for me. Very much so young adult level books though. Another author I sometimes confuse with him is raymond feist. I LOVED his magician series and the ever growing timeline as generations passed in universe. I stopped reading after the talon of the silver hawk trilogy. It started too lose me by then."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2018-02-25, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Chapter 28: A Way Out
Mat's just finishing a light post-breakfast food pile when Team Magikarp comes through his door, all sickly sweet and smiling. Well, Mat isn't too experienced with women but his daddy is, and he told Mat that if three women are smiling at you then you'd best run for the hills. Especially when one of them is Nynaeve. He's naturally suspicious, but Nynaeve assures him that just because they're clearly here to manipulate him into doing a favor for them doesn't mean they don't care about his well being.
They try multiple forms of persuasion on him. Elayne appeals to his sense of Andorian patriotism, which of course he doesn't have. The Two Rivers is part of Andor pretty much only by technicality. Egwene clearly thought that a pretty smile would do the trick, and Nynaeve is... Nynaeve. Of course the only way to get Mat's help is to buy him off, so in addition to the letter to Morgase they give him the letter they got from the Amyrlin meant only to be used as a last resort that declares that they are official business of the Amyrlin Seat. Siuan is going to be so happy she put her trust in them. Well that letter is Mat's ticket off the island so he accepts their proposal. All he needs to do now is gamble for money, and if that magic dice cup is where I think it is, this is going to be fun night.
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2018-02-25, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
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2018-02-25, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Yeah, i dont remember the specifics but even i recall just how badly those idiots on team magikarp acted with this. Iirc, nyneave was trying to be sweetness and light but had an awful time avoiding showing how ticked off she was getting, right? They tried to claim he owed them, or tried to sweet talk him, and basically treated him kinda badly the whole time. And probably convinced themselves it was all matts fault things didnt go well afterwards knowing these lunatics.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2018-02-25, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Canada
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2018-02-25, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
I don't think they had to give the permission slip to Mat to buy him off. He just has no way off the island without it. He would have gone anyway, after lots of grumbling.
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2018-02-25, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2018-02-25, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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- Calgary, AB
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2018-02-25, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- In the Heart of Europe
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Yep-
If you forget that many actual Aes Sedai, while being jzst as manipulative and needlessly superior, DO have some Inkling about what they`re doing.
So they got the procedure already, just need the experience. ^^A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”
01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110
Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”
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2018-02-25, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
I bet since
most of their classes are just "Forcing People To Do Your Bidding 101" and up. With electoral choices including "Bribing People Without Actually Giving Them Anything Important" and "Letting Them Think They Are Winning, Even As They Do What You Want."Spoilerthey tend to hide every skill they learn from each other, (not sure if thats come up yet, so spoiled just in case)
These poor girls havent even graduated from villager level manipulations yet. No wonder they flub it so badly."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2018-02-25, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
SpoilerActually, there were things that I thought Sanderson tied up too quickly. There were a lot of characters that, it seemed to me, he didn't know how their stories were supposed to end, so he just killed them off quickly, more-or-less "offscreen". Don't get me wrong; I wanted things to finally be wrapped up, but it seemed like some of the characters' arcs just ended abruptly.
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2018-02-26, 05:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Spoiler
The problem was Jordan had left enough plot hooks to easily last another 6 books. To wrap things up in a reasonable number of books some things had to be cut short. There was a limited amount of space for the plot hooks.
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-02-26, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Re: Eddings
I've read most of his works, an enjoyed most of them, but he is super mega ultra formulaic and repetitious with not only his plots, but characters too. I was barely able to finish The Dreamers set of books, everything in them was, oh this is such and such with a different name, or that was so and so getting up to their usual shenanigans and so on. Eddings is kinda like the MCU of fantasy, light, fluffy and predictable with little to no ground breaking going on most of the time.
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2018-02-26, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
I used to read a lot of Eddings while younger, but i guess what initially drove me away was that i thought there were a lot of hypocrasy in his books (though not as bad as Goodkin).
But i think this topic were already debated in Thread I or II.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-02-26, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
I don't always mind formulaic. Someone like Gemmell writes formulaic plots with shallow fantasy tropes for characters, but it just works for me. Part of that is probably nostalgia since he basically introduced me to fantasy, but some writers formulas are simply better than others.
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2018-02-26, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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2018-02-26, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Actually, I like Eddings Belgariad/Malloreaon as a classic "Heroes Journey" and his Elenium/Tamuli Books as an also classical "Lower Level Fantasy with some Depth" (Not counting later Tamuli regardin Low Fantasy^^).
Are they Masterpieces? Nope. But they are well written, fit" their themes, and have good humour.
His later BOoks though....got really really kicked in the QUality department...A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”
01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110
Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”