An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower

[Sivarias]

Not as bad as Goodkind is a very low bar to clear.

I dunno man. Rape fantasy and prolific nihilism seems like a pretty lofty bar for aspiring authors to clear.

[An Enemy Spy]

I dunno man. Rape fantasy and prolific nihilism seems like a pretty lofty bar for aspiring authors to clear.

Maybe if those aspiring authors are nihilists who fantasize about rape all day. Otherwise, not really. Also Sword of Truth's incredibly hamfisted "philosophy" is Obectivism, not Nihilism.

[Sivarias]

Maybe if those aspiring authors are nihilists who fantasize about rape all day. Otherwise, not really.

Maybe I should edit an /s in there since I'm on mobile and can't do colors. Poe's law and all that.

[lord_khaine]

Actually, I like Eddings Belgariad/Malloreaon as a classic "Heroes Journey" and his Elenium/Tamuli Books as an also classical "Lower Level Fantasy with some Depth" (Not counting later Tamuli regardin Low Fantasy^^).

Are they Masterpieces? Nope. But they are well written, fit" their themes, and have good humour.

Yes, i do think his Elenium serie is close to his crowning work. I initially liked it a lot.
I just grew to dislike them later on because it seemed like there were to many cases of the heroes not being much better than the Villains, but newer getting called out for it.

[Velaryon]

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Actually, there were things that I thought Sanderson tied up too quickly. There were a lot of characters that, it seemed to me, he didn't know how their stories were supposed to end, so he just killed them off quickly, more-or-less "offscreen". Don't get me wrong; I wanted things to finally be wrapped up, but it seemed like some of the characters' arcs just ended abruptly.

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As lord_khaine said, there was so much left that some things had to be cut short. Were Robert Jordan still alive, it's entirely possible the series would still not be finished. I swear he added three new plot lines and one new POV character for every story arc he actually wrapped up.

[Anteros]

If you look at the last few books Jordan actually wrote, he wrapped up quite a few plot lines, and was clearly about to wrap up others. He probably would have ended up stretching things into two or three more books than Sanderson did, but the ending would actually be worth reading if he wrote it, so that's a fair trade off.

[Sivarias]

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As lord_khaine said, there was so much left that some things had to be cut short. Were Robert Jordan still alive, it's entirely possible the series would still not be finished. I swear he added three new plot lines and one new POV character for every story arc he actually wrapped up.

Have you seen the interview with his publisher?

Jordan originally pitched this AS A TRILOGY. His publisher laughed and said "I know how you write, lets start with a six book contract and go from from there."

[Velaryon]

Have you seen the interview with his publisher?

Jordan originally pitched this AS A TRILOGY. His publisher laughed and said "I know how you write, lets start with a six book contract and go from from there."

I have not. That's absolutely hilarious!

[Sivarias]

I have not. That's absolutely hilarious!

I thought so as well!

In the end I think the series is better for it. Gives the characters room to breath and regress on personal development. I'm the end it makes for believable characters IMO.

[Velaryon]

I thought so as well!

In the end I think the series is better for it. Gives the characters room to breath and regress on personal development. I'm the end it makes for believable characters IMO.

I agree up to a point, though I do think things got out of hand.

[Sivarias]

I agree up to a point, though I do think things got out of hand.

Where at? I definitely got frustrated with multiple characters, but the failures where believable and backsliding was expected. I never felt like Jordan ever ignored or reset progress arbitrarily.

[LokeyITP]

Spoiler: On character regression

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Perrin. Too many times from both authors.

Characters are almost always rewarded for working with each other, just generally trusting each other or at least putting sexism and so on aside, so it's frustrating that the reset button is hit so often especially when most of the main characters know it's the end of the world and all.

[dps]

Spoiler: On character regression

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Perrin. Too many times from both authors.

Characters are almost always rewarded for working with each other, just generally trusting each other or at least putting sexism and so on aside, so it's frustrating that the reset button is hit so often especially when most of the main characters know it's the end of the world and all.

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I'm not sure that it's backsliding, though. You are correct that the story shows that things go better when the characters trust each other and work together, but OTOH, I'm not sure that any of them are self-aware enough to realize that when they have succeeded because they did work together. Instead of "hey, things went how we wanted them to go because we trusted each other to come up with a plan and work together to make it work" their attitudes are more, "hey, things went how we wanted because I came up with a good plan and pulled the others, kicking and screaming, into following it".

[Anteros]

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Not attitudes that are entirely unrealistic. Jordan isn't trying to write a manga about the power of friendship, he's trying to write believable characters with flaws.

[WalkingTarget]

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I forget. Did Min ever actually tell anybody about the "sparks fighting the darkness" vision from early on in the series? Like, that's an in-universe case of somebody with special knowledge basically saying "Work together, dummies!"

[Saph]

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I forget. Did Min ever actually tell anybody about the "sparks fighting the darkness" vision from early on in the series? Like, that's an in-universe case of somebody with special knowledge basically saying "Work together, dummies!"

Spoiler: Sparks in the Darkness

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She told Rand.

But Min is extremely unusual in the series in that she (a) is reasonably self-aware and (b) doesn't put her own ego first. That's why she can actually fit in with other characters rather than butting heads with them.

[tiornys]

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I forget. Did Min ever actually tell anybody about the "sparks fighting the darkness" vision from early on in the series? Like, that's an in-universe case of somebody with special knowledge basically saying "Work together, dummies!"

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Yes, she tells Rand, and I'm pretty sure she tells him in The Eye of the World (away from books or I'd double-check). I don't remember her telling anyone else.

[dps]

Spoiler: Sparks in the Darkness

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She told Rand.

But Min is extremely unusual in the series in that she (a) is reasonably self-aware and (b) doesn't put her own ego first. That's why she can actually fit in with other characters rather than butting heads with them.

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Which is why she is also one of the very few relatively likable characters.

[Velaryon]

Where at? I definitely got frustrated with multiple characters, but the failures where believable and backsliding was expected. I never felt like Jordan ever ignored or reset progress arbitrarily.

Oops, that was not the clearest I could have been. I'm not sure whether it's necessary, but I'm going back into a spoiler tag just in case, so I don't ruin anything for AES.

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What I was referring to "getting out of hand" was not character backsliding, but rather the ever-increasing number of books, the constant adding of more characters, more points of view, and more plot threads. I am not exaggerating when I say that if Robert Jordan had survived, I believe the series would have been at least 20 books long and possibly not have reached its conclusion yet. I feel like he was chronically unable to resolve one plot without adding at least two more.

I'm not really able to point to specifics because I've only read through the series once, years ago, and don't own most of the books. But off the top of my head, there were chapters from the perspectives of:

Rand
Mat
Perrin
Egwene
Nynaeve
Elayne
Moiraine
Morgase
Siuan
Elaida
Thom
Gawyn
Galad
Aviendha
Cadsuane
Verin
Birgitte
Faile
Lan (I'm fairly sure, anyway)
several of the Forsaken
several of the Black Ajah
several other Aes Sedai
at least one of Mat's lieutenants
probably one or two Aiel Wise Ones

I mean, come on. Who needs that many POV characters? The only other author I can think of that has that many is George R.R. Martin, but that's because he's always replacing characters that he killed off. Hardly any of the ones I named above died off, so the story got so spread out that by the 9th or 10th book, it felt like you were getting just a chapter or two from each perspective. On at least one occasion I finished a book and thought "for a book so big, how much actually happened in this book."

I enjoyed reading every bit of it (well, other than some of Perrin's constant reluctance to accept his position and Faile... being Faile), but it really felt meandering and like Jordan had lost control of the reins a couple times.

[Wookieetank]

Oops, that was not the clearest I could have been. I'm not sure whether it's necessary, but I'm going back into a spoiler tag just in case, so I don't ruin anything for AES.

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What I was referring to "getting out of hand" was not character backsliding, but rather the ever-increasing number of books, the constant adding of more characters, more points of view, and more plot threads. I am not exaggerating when I say that if Robert Jordan had survived, I believe the series would have been at least 20 books long and possibly not have reached its conclusion yet. I feel like he was chronically unable to resolve one plot without adding at least two more.

I'm not really able to point to specifics because I've only read through the series once, years ago, and don't own most of the books. But off the top of my head, there were chapters from the perspectives of:

Rand
Mat
Perrin
Egwene
Nynaeve
Elayne
Moiraine
Morgase
Siuan
Elaida
Thom
Gawyn
Galad
Aviendha
Cadsuane
Verin
Birgitte
Faile
Lan (I'm fairly sure, anyway)
several of the Forsaken
several of the Black Ajah
several other Aes Sedai
at least one of Mat's lieutenants
probably one or two Aiel Wise Ones

I mean, come on. Who needs that many POV characters? The only other author I can think of that has that many is George R.R. Martin, but that's because he's always replacing characters that he killed off. Hardly any of the ones I named above died off, so the story got so spread out that by the 9th or 10th book, it felt like you were getting just a chapter or two from each perspective. On at least one occasion I finished a book and thought "for a book so big, how much actually happened in this book."

I enjoyed reading every bit of it (well, other than some of Perrin's constant reluctance to accept his position and Faile... being Faile), but it really felt meandering and like Jordan had lost control of the reins a couple times.

Spoiler: You forgot:

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Lews Therin
Jaichim Carridin
Geofram BornHald
Padan Fain
Bayle Domon
Min
Pedron Niall
Suroth Sabelle
Egeanin Tamarath
Garet Bryne
Sevanna
Romanda Cassin
Furyk Karede
Tuon
Itrualde
Idrool (Andull, I mean Androl)
Pevara Tazanovni
Brigitte


I left out anyone who had fewer than 10k words as a POV and anyone who fell into one of your categories for the sake of brevity.

[Sapphire Guard]

Oops, that was not the clearest I could have been. I'm not sure whether it's necessary, but I'm going back into a spoiler tag just in case, so I don't ruin anything for AES.

Spoiler

Show

What I was referring to "getting out of hand" was not character backsliding, but rather the ever-increasing number of books, the constant adding of more characters, more points of view, and more plot threads. I am not exaggerating when I say that if Robert Jordan had survived, I believe the series would have been at least 20 books long and possibly not have reached its conclusion yet. I feel like he was chronically unable to resolve one plot without adding at least two more.

I'm not really able to point to specifics because I've only read through the series once, years ago, and don't own most of the books. But off the top of my head, there were chapters from the perspectives of:

Rand
Mat
Perrin
Egwene
Nynaeve
Elayne
Moiraine
Morgase
Siuan
Elaida
Thom
Gawyn
Galad
Aviendha
Cadsuane
Verin
Birgitte
Faile
Lan (I'm fairly sure, anyway)
several of the Forsaken
several of the Black Ajah
several other Aes Sedai
at least one of Mat's lieutenants
probably one or two Aiel Wise Ones

I mean, come on. Who needs that many POV characters? The only other author I can think of that has that many is George R.R. Martin, but that's because he's always replacing characters that he killed off. Hardly any of the ones I named above died off, so the story got so spread out that by the 9th or 10th book, it felt like you were getting just a chapter or two from each perspective. On at least one occasion I finished a book and thought "for a book so big, how much actually happened in this book."

I enjoyed reading every bit of it (well, other than some of Perrin's constant reluctance to accept his position and Faile... being Faile), but it really felt meandering and like Jordan had lost control of the reins a couple times.

Spoiler: GOT

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As of ADWD, GRRM has killed 4 POV characters, excluding intros and epilogues. Of those, Arys and Quentyn are very minor characters, Leaving Ned, and Catylen (who comes back), making a grand total of 1 1/2 major characters. I would bet that Robert Jordan has killed more of his POVs.

[kida]

Spoiler: GOT

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As of ADWD, GRRM has killed 4 POV characters, excluding intros and epilogues. Of those, Arys and Quentyn are very minor characters, Leaving Ned, and Catylen (who comes back), making a grand total of 1 1/2 major characters. I would bet that Robert Jordan has killed more of his POVs.

Spoiler: ASOIAF

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You forgot he killed Jon Snow also

[An Enemy Spy]

Spoiler: ASOIAF

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You forgot he killed Jon Snow also

Spoiler: ASOIAF

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Jon Snow is going to be resurrected as well and probably in much better condition than Cat was.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Personally, I think ASoIaF and WoT both have too many POV characters, regardless of how many are or aren't killed off. It causes problems in both series.

[snowblizz]

Personally, I think ASoIaF and WoT both have too many POV characters, regardless of how many are or aren't killed off. It causes problems in both series.

Why exactly does it matter? WoT may have many POVs but not at the same time and most outside of the main cast, say the Emond's fielders, we don't see that much of them really. Consider that we are into book2 or 3 before Mat really gets anything from behind his eyes. It's really an interesting style which gives WoT depth to see stuff from other's perspectives. Somehow I guess that Sword of Truth series don't do that? I don't really see the problem, it's not like it's 13 books each with 13+ POVs in each.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Why exactly does it matter?

Well it's a question of personal taste (so it doesn't matter, but I thought we were having a conversation...). For me, I don't like the proliferation of POVs in the second half of the WoT. It's gratuitous and jarring, and most of them add very little to the overall story. To be fair, I'd have been less turned off if he didn't keep jumping between POVs mid-chapter, sometimes just for a few lines at a time. That's just unpleasant to read.

And, if you put me on the spot, I'd say it's actually ASoIaF that suffers more from having too many POVs, out of the two series, even though it doesn't have as many overall and sticks to one per chapter.

Spoiler: Extended ASoIaF thoughts

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The influx of ironborn and dornish POVs in AFFC really bogged the story down, for me. They were dull, and the stories GRRM was trying to tell with them didn't need to be part of the series. They'd have been better as short stories, sold separately. It didn't help that Dany got stuck in Meereen at about the same time so nothing seemed to be going anywhere. It's notable that the TV show started to really fall apart at this point, as well.

And did we really need Cersei's POV at all?
I tend to think it'd have been better to keep her inner thoughts (and some of the political events in KL) a mystery. I feel like the books would have been greatly improved by cutting all of her chapters.

Also the prologues and epilogues didn't land with me, except for the first and maybe third books. Not only because of the throwaway POVs, granted, but that was a part of it. If I was editor, I'd have cut them too.

[Anteros]

It seems a little unfair to compare the number of PoV characters between Jordan and Martin anyway when Martin only puts out like 10% of the content Jordan did. If you wanted a fair comparison you could really only look at Jordans first few books, and the numbers would be a lot closer.

Personally I liked the way Jordan's setting evolved from a simple heroes journey to an entire world fighting to save itself. I can see why it isn't for everyone, but I like it.

[lord_khaine]

Personally I liked the way Jordan's setting evolved from a simple heroes journey to an entire world fighting to save itself. I can see why it isn't for everyone, but I like it.

It is a nice story. Its just a shame Jordan allowed it to progress to far. I think 10 books would have been enough to tell the most epic fantasy story of them all.

[Ninja_Prawn]

It seems a little unfair to compare the number of PoV characters between Jordan and Martin anyway

Oh, yeah. I don't disagree with that.

And it is nice how Jordan tied in so many different people and locations to the story, I guess. It felt a bit kitchen-sink-ish at times, but the scope and scale of the series is impressive.

[kida]

Spoiler: ASOIAF

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Jon Snow is going to be resurrected as well and probably in much better condition than Cat was.

I was replying to the status of the character at end of Dance.

In general I think that Martin is doing more fake out of POV deaths than actually killing them.
Even if we don't take Jon and Cat into account:
Arya - at the end of her chapter in the red wedding she was hit with an axe to the head
Brienne - was hanged at the end of her chapter
Davos - reported dead for an entire book
Bran - in his second POV chapter, fell off the tower (I'm pretty sure you are suppose to think he is dead on first read, at least until you get to the next chapter)
Theon - I think most people doesn't know he is alive for a couple of books until he pop up as Reek
Quentyn - there are some tin foil theories he is alive and just burned his hand, and his men just switched him with a burned body.